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cs86
03-20-2013, 12:31 AM
So I went out and shot my 1911 .45ACP with some RN 230gr tumble lube boolits that I casted for the first time. I ended up shooting 100 rounds. 50 rounds with 5.0gr of W231 and 50 rounds with 5.4gr W231. had a lot of junk in the barrel and wasn't sure if it was lube or leading. I took some pictures of the barrel before and after I ran 2 dry patches through. Most of the leading was at the start of the lands. I've slugged my barrel at .450 and sized my boolits to .451 and used Lee Alox for lube.

I read another post a few days ago and it sounded like another person wasn't setting the COAL deep enough. I can't remember what the coal measurement was but it was set deep enough that you could see half of the front band after the bullet was crimped. I'm not sure if this could be the problem. I plan on useing the recluse 45/45/10 mix, but I have about 150 more bullets that are lubed and ready to load. I just wondered what I could try next. I'll try and get some of the leading pics posted.

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It took a bit of time to get all the lead out but my barrel is ready for the next batch to try. I'll have to look up chore boy. I've heard about it and think it would make cleaning easier.

9-toes
03-20-2013, 12:44 AM
What's the alloy and has it aged a bit? Takes about a week or two for the bullet to fully harden. Also, what did you use to measure your slugs? Caliper or Micrometer?

Pilgrim
03-20-2013, 12:58 AM
A reasonable rule of thumb is if your leading starts at the throat it is most likely due to one of four things; 1 ) gas cutting due to too small of a boolit (boolit doesn't fill the bore quickly enuf), 2) too long a bullet jump before the boolit fills the bore. This can result in gas cutting just like 1), 3) too hard of an alloy which prevents boolit upset, which delays/prevents the boolit from upsetting and filling the bore, and acts just like 1) and 2), and 4) boolit skid due to too soft an alloy. Once leading starts in the leade, it can continue all the way to the muzzle since the gas cutting can continue once it starts. If the leading begins some distance down the bore it is most likely due to lube failure. You don't mention your alloy, but I would start by choosing a very mild load (say 700 fps +/-), seat the boolit as far out of the case as you can and still fit the magazine and feed reliably. This test should start to eliminate the reasons for your leading. If you get little to no leading you can up the load pressure (velocity) and try again. In this case your boolit is obturating OK, your alloy fits the bore OK, and your lube is performing as it should. If you are leading with the boolit set out, and lower pressures, I'd suspect a boolit that is undersize. FWIW...something to think about while you trouble shoot your problem(s). Buy some brass wool (just like steel wool) and use that to scrub the lead out of the barrel. Much faster and easier than patches. I've also used steel wool for the same purpose, but using steel anything in a barrel gives me the heebie-jeebies. Pilgrim

cs86
03-20-2013, 01:05 AM
Alloy is clip on wheel weight. I let the Alox dry for 4 days. I let the bullets rest for 2 weeks. I realize I should be using a micro but all I have is a caliper. I was actually going to order a micrometer today but they were all out on Midway with the 1 I wanted.

Pilgrim
03-20-2013, 01:15 AM
Watch fleebay. The last one I bought off of that site was about $6 or so. Nice unit and I still use it over my expensive Mitituyos and such.

dmclark523
03-20-2013, 01:18 AM
Yikes! I've had leading before but this is kind of rough. Definitely get your hands on a micrometer of some sort, and check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNoo4m6jso

Best way to do this is find some soft lead, like the clip-on wheel weights, or roofers lead. Measure the grooves with a micrometer for precision.

Also, you may want to consider something other than straight Alox. Check out this thread and maybe cook up a batch. You probably already own Alox and Paint thinner, just need to get your hands on Johnsons Paste Wax.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67654-Tumble-Lubing-Made-Easy-amp-Mess-Free

I use it and it works great. Cast, tumble, size appropriately (.001-.002 more than your micrometer measures), and than tumble once more before loading. Virtually NO lead in my barrel following these steps.


EDIT: Clip on wheel weights as alloy might be to soft. Add some regular wheel weights or even some linotype. If nothing else, water drop and try to heat-treat your boolits if necessary.

williamwaco
03-21-2013, 09:09 PM
.451 is too small.

Especially if your alloy is hard.

You need a .452 die.


.

runfiverun
03-21-2013, 09:28 PM
William beat me to it.
make em 452.
make sure they stay that way through the loading process.

Cane_man
03-21-2013, 10:15 PM
^^^ learned the hard way... just enough taper crimp to drop in the chamber

HangFireW8
03-21-2013, 11:31 PM
^^^ learned the hard way... just enough taper crimp to drop in the chamber

Me too. I did get the Lee 230 RN TL to work, one trick was to not size them at all (I know, I know, why was I sizing it at all?) the next trick was reducing the crimp until it was no longer sizing the boolit down. That fixed the leading.

The final trick was to buy a Storm Lake barrel. :) That fixed the feeding problems of feeding cartridges with oversized case mouths. Then I could go back to using a crimp, but still a mild one. My problems were worse than yours, though- my barrel was oval, .452x.454.

HF

Boolseye
03-22-2013, 08:15 AM
I ended up lapping that mold, all six cavities. I found them to be a bit small beforehand, but they never leaded.
size to .452, as the others have said. And those loads sound a bit hot, not having my data in front of me...

Kull
03-22-2013, 09:16 AM
My standard 230gr load is a .452 LRN @ 1.255 oal with 5.4gr HP-38/231 and a .470 crimp.

cs86
03-22-2013, 10:20 AM
I have about 150 left that are sized at .451. I'm going to try and back the crimp off a little and try a few different things just to see what happens. I also have a .452 sizer on the way. I may cast some bullets up this weekend, size them to .452 and let them rest a few weeks so I can test them out.

gray wolf
03-22-2013, 02:07 PM
size them to .452 and let them rest a few weeks so I can test them out.
The bullets should not have to rest for a low pressure 45 ACP round, make sure they are .452
when they go into the case and when they come out of the case. under sized bullet are
IMHO the biggest contributor to leading in many pistols, and certainly in a 45 ACP

Huskerguy
03-22-2013, 09:28 PM
I am finding this post interesting in many ways. I just finished loading my first round of 45's as well. Cast my own bullets, .452 sized and checked with a caliper. I loaded them with 4.5, 4.7 and 4.9 grains of W231 with 4.5 giving me the best group of that string. I shot ten of each load. These were just barely crimped, enough to take the bell off. I too had something in my barrel but it is nothing like your pictures. I just cleaned up my barrel and it came right out. So compared to 5.4 grains of W231 above, these are babies and the OP had loads of 5.0 grains of W231. Am I being too conservative for my 1911? They cycled just fine and the pattern increased as I went up in powder loads. The bullet is a single groove 230 grain ball. The lead was wheel weights mixed with some range lead.

Boolseye
03-24-2013, 07:35 AM
Am I being too conservative for my 1911?
no reason to beat your gun or yourself up more than needed. Sounds like a good load.
I'll bet it passes through the paper effectively:smile:


The bullets should not have to rest for a low pressure 45 ACP round
+1.

My Lee data has 5.1 gr. of W231 under a lead 230 gr. bullet as max, with a speed of 870 fps.
I, for one, would not exceed that load.

cs86
03-25-2013, 10:20 AM
My Lee data has 5.1 gr. of W231 under a lead 230 gr. bullet as max, with a speed of 870 fps.
I, for one, would not exceed that load.

Good to know. I didn't have any data for the load and was going off the lead 230gr bullets from the hornady book. The hornady book was showing 5.0 of W231 for roughly 800fps if I remember right. I don't have the book in front of me right now.

prs
03-25-2013, 12:27 PM
That barrel will clean-up easy if you get some fine bronze wool (try a marine shop, or even Amazon) to use over a solvent soaked patch or Kroil soaked patch. Take notice in your pic of where that leading starts, right at the end of the chamber. Use the chamber as your COL gauge via the plunk test. If you get it too short, that abrupt transition from chamber to barrel will shave lead no matter how well you cast, size, and reload.

prs

destrux
03-25-2013, 05:57 PM
Best way to do this is find some soft lead, like the clip-on wheel weights, or roofers lead. Measure the grooves with a micrometer for precision.

EDIT: Clip on wheel weights as alloy might be to soft. Add some regular wheel weights or even some linotype. If nothing else, water drop and try to heat-treat your boolits if necessary.

You have your terms backwards. Clip-on wheel weights are the harder ones because they have some antimony and arsenic in them (sometimes even 1% tin). Stick-on wheel weights are the type that are soft and are usually pure lead or close to it.

Stick on weight lead won't age harden, but clip-on weight lead will age harden and can also be heat treated or water dropped to harden them more. You don't want to do this for a .45ACP though, of course. You don't want a hard alloy for this cartridge. Air cooled clip on weight alloy is fine.

MtGun44
03-25-2013, 08:21 PM
As many have said --- use .452 for .45 ACP.

Also, taper crimp as a separate operation. No need for hard alloy for .45 ACP.

Bill

detox
03-25-2013, 09:10 PM
Shallow grooves designed for copper jacket bullets will cause soft lead boollits to slip. Try sizing larger to .452 and/or heat treat your current .451 bullets by heating in oven then quenching in water. For measuring I use a .451 pin gauge to zero my dial gauge, but a $22.00 micrometer is a little better.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#pin-gauges/=m1e3aw

David2011
03-26-2013, 03:08 PM
Cs86,

Are you using a taper or a roll crimp? It should be a taper crimp and just enough to straighten the cartridge mouths out- no inward crimping is needed or desirable. The crimped mouth should measure .473". Any smaller and you're swaging your boolits to a smaller diameter.

David