7 Marines.......

[Harter66]

I can't say anything , its different in your "backyard".

Ok maybe I should elaborate.
At 10 pm 3/18/2012,7 USMs were killed during a live fire trading mission on the Hawthorne Army Ammo Depot in Hawthorne Nv.

It appears that a 60mm mortar was dropped,fumbled,or tube detonated killing 7.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/19/explosion-during-training-at-hawthorne-army-depot/

[Bullet Caster]

My wife just told me about that incident. Too bad there wasn't a safety officer on site. May have prevented this. I always hate to hear of any Marines killed. Marine Sgt. Vietnam, '71-'72. BC

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Darn. I hate hearing of things like that. Brave men that paid the ultimate price for our freedom.

[Harter66]

Bullet thank you for your service.

Sadly our little burg takes it personally as sure as if they were our own sons/daughters.

[1Shirt]

May God bless those who died and those who are wounded!
1Shirt!

[Harter66]

We lost an 8th late yesterday morning.

[richhodg66]

Sad indeed, I have a son in the Marine corps right now and they are doing a lot of FTX training where he is. I worry about him all the time.

I did 24 years in the Army in a lot of different combat units and, unfortunately, it's a fact of life that it's a dangerous business and some will get hurt or killed in training accidents. Every rotation we went to the National Training Center (or any other big FTX) it was nothing short of miraculous that we didn't lose a Soldier every day, particularly due to vehicle accidents. A lot of those things are big and hard to drive and then driven at night, under blackout drives by sleep deprived people. It truly is a testament to the fact that we have a darned good NCO corps who supervise things well and takes safety into account when doing things.

I hope those young men's families get some closure once the investigation is done and that they figure out what happenned so it can be prevented from happening again. A few years ago, a unit here at Riley lost three guys to a mortar blow up. They had recently replaced the old 4.2" with the new 120mm and its eems like I remember it was unfamiliarity with the new systems crew drill for handling a misfire that caused the accident. Sad, sad stuff, there are few enough good young folks out there willing to serve that you hate to lose even one ever.

[snuffy]

Very sad day indeed.

The problem is if someone screwed up, they're probably dead so they can't say how they screwed up.

Maybe someone familiar with mortars can chime in. I know almost nothing about how they're armed, and how they could possibly detonate before being launched. As a former Air Force civil engineering, (power production), rear echelon, I never even got overseas to possibly even see a mortar.

[richhodg66]

I have no experience with 60s or 81s, but a lot with the 4.2" and with artillery rounds. Bottom line is teh ammo is very safe, you can drop a fuzed 155 round on the nose on ahard surface and nothing will happen except you pay for a damaged fuze. It takes the force being fired to arm the fuze.

This may have been faulty ammo, or a faulty weapon. One thing I do know, the Army anyway takes accidents that result in fatalities pretty seriously and will do a very thorough investigation and find out why.I had to do a few AR 15-6 investigations over the years, a couple of them on accidents that hurt Soldiers and/or damaged equipment (fortunately, nothing nearly this serious) and those are vetted through multiple echelons of review before conclusions are made final. This accident will get checked out very thoroughly by experts.

[nicholst55]

From what I hear (which may well be total BS), the round detonated either inside the tube or immediately upon exiting the muzzle. That's what you get when you source things to the lowest bidder. While US mortar and artillery ammo is, overall, very, very safe to use, it really sucks when you're the one who gets the 'statistic' round.

There are several monuments to folks killed while firing artillery here at Yuma Proving Ground. One of the reasons why nearly every weapon is remotely fired during testing.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and unit personnel of the fallen.

[gray wolf]

A sad day indeed, very sad

[shdwlkr]

We can only hope those who were injured make it so maybe they can shed some information on what went wrong.
Those we have lost will be dearly missed by family, friends and we can hope a nation they served for.
My prayers to all involved even those who must find the real cause as it may not be a good thing to know when you put the placement of those involved into the equation.

[Boyscout]

I watched the news last night and they showed Marines somewhere else firing a 60mm mortar; it was an accident waiting to happen if I saw it right (NBC Nightly News). The Marine dropping the round down the tube dropped the mortar, hesitated briefly and pulled his hand straight back. During my training with my 81mm mortar Platoon (1983) and Infantry Officer's Course, we were trained to release the mortar and sweep our hand along the tube in the same motion without stopping. Failing to do so could result in a hand being lost. I asked my son what they taught him 24 years later at SOI, Camp Pendleton and he said they taught them same thing. Perhaps what I saw was the distraction of going Hollywood for the camera.

[Love Life]

Drop the round and slap your ***. Keeps you from getting fingers or hand cut off.

[willie_pete]

I've read that they have taken that round out of service until further notice. That tells me they have some indication of either equipment or round malfunction.

WP

[Love Life]

Because it is such a rarity for a mortar round to spontaneously explode, that LOT number of ammunition has been taken out of service for now until the investigation is done.

[sundog]

Yeah, this is tough. It's a dangerous business to be sure. I was gunner on an 81 one night and had an illum round go off as it left the muzzle. Luckily forward momentum was enough to get it out and away before any of the crew got hurt. But it was really freakin' hot for a split second. Made it to about 300 feet and drifted right back over our position. Blinded everyone temporarily, night vision was **** for hours. Made it pretty tough the next time I hung a round.... I feel for the families.

[nicholst55]

The story in Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/03/marine-all-use-60mm-mortar-suspended-after-blast-032013/) says that the entire mortar system has been suspended from use until the investigation is concluded. They also said that general officers in combat have the option to continue using the mortar system. Apparently the round did detonate inside the tube. I read earlier where that specific lot of ammo had been withdrawn from use, and that the mortar system (M225A1) had not been suspended.

Here at YPG, they use locally manufactured holders to hold the rounds while drop-firing. That became SOP after a gunner lost some fingers.

[Love Life]

The Army Times, Marine Corps Times, etc are not official service publications. I lovingly call them the bum scoop times, or the scuttlebutt times.

It is good to play it safe though. Hopefully they actually release the results of the investigation.

[Plate plinker]

Curious guys, but the time of detonation is adjustable? And if so could a guys set it wrong?

[richhodg66]

Curious guys, but the time of detonation is adjustable? And if so could a guys set it wrong?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think they have time or VT fuzes for rounds that small. Some former 11C may correct me, but that's what I seem to remember.

[Harter66]

I think that is correct there may be a proximity fuse but they are mostly impact detonation,but I just ship the stuff.

On that note a theory. Knowing the land ground make up of about where they were shooting.it is possible that FOD found its way in eg;a rock stuck in a fin. IF that happened and the round didn't fire and everyone was all geared up they may not have heard it not go. Then the 2nd round goes in sets off the 1st then it goes too.
All speculation I would think there would be a check to prevent that.

[sundog]

Never worked the 60, but you know when a round goes off on a 81 or four-deuce. You know. I was a platoon sergeant when one of my crews had a hang fire one night. It was noticed immediately. Immediately! Even after all proper misfire procedures, it would not dislodge. If y'all never tried dumping a live round, well, let's say life get's pretty intense. We didn't get the round out and the tube had to go to the dud pit. EOD got it out the next morning and we got the tube back. Like I said earlier, this is dangerous work. I salute my brothers in the USMC involved in this mishap.

[Plate plinker]

Those theories make sense thanks guys.

[MtGun44]

Very powerful weapons, really bad when they malfunction or somebody makes an error.

I was a bit puzzled when I had the opportunity to fire a M203 at Quantico TBS's
"Warrior Day" graduation day for the families. They had me put on body armor and a
helmet to shoot the weapon, which seemed strange at first thought. Once I thought it
through a bit, it made a lot of sense, that round could detonate when handled or
in the tube. I wonder if these troops would have been expected to
be wearing armor and helmets?

God bless all you that have served, and may He have mercy on those Marines that
have paid the ultimate price - anywhere, anytime.

Bill

[Harter66]

Our depot regs require 100% to clear and turn in weapons for the security force I believe the boys were in full gear w/2x hear gear. It may be mentioned that the tube was on open ground instead of a sandbagged pit.

[Love Life]

They are required to have full PPE on when on the firing line. The 60mm Mortar is designed to do one thing very well, and it excels at it. Sadly it does not discriminate when it explodes, so when something like this happens the casualty rate is high.

The 40mm HEDP fired from the M203 would give you a very bad day if it exploded in the breach, but are very stable. They have a centrifugal arming system that requires so many revolutions of the round to arm. Shoot one too close and it will bounce off things without exploding.

Men using the tools designed to kill men.

[trooperdan]

I'm puzzled about the number killed.. a 60 team would normally only be 3 guys, right? And other observers would be far away, out of danger. Unless this was some type of training demo with other guys crowded in close, I don't understand it.

As for the 40 mm grenade, very early HE rounds would arm in 3 meters! Not cool as the casualty radius is 15 meters! Later ammo was changed to arm in 30 meters, too far!

[10-x]

IIRC the 60 MM has an impact det. fuse and a bore riding safety pin, at least the ones used in RVN did.

[Harter66]

Follow up.
No conclusions but an Lt Col relieved of duty .Can some one say does that mean an early Ret?


http://www.ktvn.com/story/22208640/3-relieved-of-command-in-marine-training-accident

[Love Life]

The cause of the incident has been discovered and is well known here. Maybe the Marine Corps will have a news release, maybe not.

[Riverpigusmc]

Fair winds and following seas to those Warriors who were lost

[Harter66]

Love life ,
can you vaguely elaborate? Ops error,equiptment failure,mat'l defect ? Another catagory?

[MtGun44]

They don't fire the chain of command for material problems or defective ammo.

My take is that somebody didn't get proper training, or proper safety procedures
were not being followed. That means that the chain of command was not on top
of safety in a live fire exercise. If the immediate officer in command was not doing
it right, it is because his boss let him violate regs or failed to train him. $#!+ can
flow uphill in this sort of event from what I have observed.

A commander is responsible for the failings of those he trained (or FAILED
to train more likely) and commands, ESPECIALLY when it gets a bunch of folks
killed. The military rotates people on a steady basis. New people are always
coming into the unit and they HAVE TO be properly trained and NOW or in a
short time the unit cannot function because the new guys don't know and the
old guys transferred out. A sloppy commander can wreck a unit this way in
a short time.

Heck of a high price to pay for somebody screwing up.

Bill

[Love Life]

Mtgun44 hit the nail on the head.

[Harter66]

It has a familar ring.........

http://www.ktvn.com/story/22447038/marines-human-error-to-blame-for-deadly-accident