Is It Legal To Load For a Range Owner For His Resale?

[Gray Fox]

Within the past couple of days I read an article about gun shops with ranges who are going to go broke because of no ammo to sell over the counter or for range shooters.

A friend of mine has a good gun shop business and just a year ago added a very nice 7-lane indoor range to the shop that cost a hefty bit of change once it had passed all the EPA and safety checks. His business volume increased many fold, and you can never find a parking spot.

He has been selling his range brass to a guy in FL by the trailer load of 55 gallon drums. Today he says he's going to go through the brass to find 9mm that's reloadable and try to get it reloaded.

He can't find any jacketed 9mm bullets, so I'm going to suggest he try cast boolits, which are probably available. I suppose something like Berry plated bullets would also be an option. My question to any of you who know for sure with regards to ATF regs, would it be legal for me to crank up my Dillon 650 and load his range brass which he would then sell for range use in his shop? He would provide all components, I would provide labor to the tune of say 2,000 rounds a couple times weekly. Thanks for all input. GF

[jcwit]

In a word "NO".

Even besides that can you even imagine the liability cost in case of a mishap?

[willie_pete]

If you have a Type 6 FFL it would be legal.

WP

[Jim]

Even if you had all the licenses, permits and insurance, there's nothing to stop someone from dragging you into court in the event of an accident involving your ammo. Even if they lost the suit, what it would cost you to defend yourself would wipe out everything you have.

It ain't worth it.

[perotter]

Could one do it if they worked by the hour for the guy? Maybe charge rent on for the press? Would the press have to be at the gun shop?

[willie_pete]

See post #3; someone has to have a Type 6 FFL.

WP

[wch]

In PA, an employee acts as an "agent" for his employer-which means that the employer is ultimately liable (as in LIABILITY) for the "agents" action during his working hours.
It may be different in another state but I'd be 'dammed' sure that I had a good lawyer as reference, and lots of liability insurance!

[wills]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frolic_and_detour

[pipehand]

wills, that was interesting reading. Of course, as their employers, this exempts us from all the out of bounds stuff that the congresscritters, senators, and the prez do, correct?

[Blacksmith]

He probably could provide a room with reloading equipment to his clients and sell them components for reloading. If the client did the reloading and fired it themselves you would eliminate the need for a FFL because there are no sales of loaded ammo. Consult with a lawyer before doing. By only allowing certain specific components you could mitigate some of the hazards of double charges etc.

[eljefe]

If your friend gets the license, (type 06 or 07) and the liability coverage
endorsement, it can be done. We reloaded for a few years for our indoor
range, under a manufacturer's (07) license.

You will need at least two machines...unless he just wants to do one primer size.
I had six Dillon XL650 presses going...kept two when we "retired" from manufacturing.
I have one small primer and one large primer...these are now used for my and my employees'
personal use. You will need plenty of spare parts for your machines. You will also need
to make sure that every cartridge has the correct amount of powder...I don't trust the
powder check die. A good pace was about 350 per hour...refilling the primer tubes and
emptying the loaded cartridge bin are big utilizers of time. We also gauged each cartridge
to ensure that it will fit a standard chamber. That also takes time.

There is an excise tax that has to be paid on the assembled ammo. The ATF
has a formula where you calculate the taxable amount based on your component
costs.

Be prepared for every poor shooter in the place to blame their lack of skills
on your ammo. It comes with the territory.

Lastly, you will need a steady source of components...think cases of primers,
thousands of bullets and many pounds of powder. In today's climate, that
could be a problem.

I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but the above is my experience over
a 2 year period. By the time I paid the tax, bought components, and listened
to the whiners, it was not worth it to me. I had quite a few folks who were
very please with our ammo, but at the end of the day, it was simply not worth it.

[oldred]

In PA, an employee acts as an "agent" for his employer-which means that the employer is ultimately liable (as in LIABILITY) for the "agents" action during his working hours.
It may be different in another state but I'd be 'dammed' sure that I had a good lawyer as reference, and lots of liability insurance!

This would probably work if the "agent" was an actual bonafide employee with all that entails such as the usual paperwork for tax deductions, etc but just claiming to be an employee would almost certainly not work. He would very likely be considered a contractor or depending on the circumstances possibly a subcontractor but in either case would retain liability for damages from malfunctioning (or CLAIMED malfunction!) rounds. As a contractor or subcontractor then he would still need the FFL.


In any case regardless of what may be said it would be prudent to consult an attorney and not rely solely on forum advice for something as questionable as this, especially considering the very serious nature of the legal and liability ramifications.

[wv109323]

I would google a remanufacturer of ammo. One in particular name is ammoguru.

[Gray Fox]

That's what I thought, but your comments will give me something for him to read and hopefully understand. I'd hate to be in his position right now, but I sure don't need to be in a worse one myself. GF

[km101]

Could one do it if they worked by the hour for the guy? Maybe charge rent on for the press? Would the press have to be at the gun shop?

Even if you handled it this way, you would still be named as a party to the lawsuit if any addident/mishap occurred. Again, could you afford to defend yourself?

[Duckiller]

Unless the range has a VERY good ventilation system you and the range owner does not want anyone fireing lead boolits indoors.

[cajun shooter]

All of our local ranges allow any bullet types to be fired.
They had all the needed equipment installed during the build. They have been in businesss for over 16 years.

[P.K.]

Try here: http://tncartridge.com/

Decent prices and bulk.

[1Shirt]

In this day and age when there is a sue crazy population and an ambulance chaser behind just about every bush, you would be foolish to even think about something along this line.
1Shirt!

[KCSO]

You give a reload to somebody and they have and accident and YOU are sunk. Insurance for commercial reloading is way to expensive for less than a ton of ammo a year. it has been some time since I checked but years ago it was $20,000 a year for insurance. Don't ever reload for anyone else unless you trust them with your home, car and savings. When i was much younger I would load up ammo for folks i knew. One day a fellow came in and wanted some 357 brass loaded up. He asked if i could seat the bullets deeper as they stuck out the front of his gun. he was shooting a 38 caliber spanish copy of a Smith with the cylinders bores straight through. If that gun had blown up with my ammo who do you think would have taken the heat?

[oldred]

You give a reload to somebody and they have and accident and YOU are sunk. Insurance for commercial reloading is way to expensive for less than a ton of ammo a year. it has been some time since I checked but years ago it was $20,000 a year for insurance. Don't ever reload for anyone else unless you trust them with your home, car and savings. When i was much younger I would load up ammo for folks i knew. One day a fellow came in and wanted some 357 brass loaded up. He asked if i could seat the bullets deeper as they stuck out the front of his gun. he was shooting a 38 caliber spanish copy of a Smith with the cylinders bores straight through. If that gun had blown up with my ammo who do you think would have taken the heat?

That is exactly the main point I was making earlier if someone gets hurt, his fault, your fault, no one's fault, everyone involved gets sued! The Sleazy suit-happy lawyers use the "shotgun" approach and sling the liability at EVERYONE involved and let the courts decide who it will stick to! Even if a person manages to escape liability he may (probably) still be financially ruined just to prove his case, fair? Not at all but unfortunately that's the usual outcome.

[garym1a2]

I only load for my family. Anyone else is on their own. To much worry if I forget to charge a case or overcharge one.

[wills]

wills, that was interesting reading. Of course, as their employers, this exempts us from all the out of bounds stuff that the congresscritters, senators, and the prez do, correct?

Wishful thinking.