The 223 Remington--Final Attempts...

[BCB]

I know this subject has been mostly beat to death, but I recently did some pretty extensive shooting with my T/C Super 14” in the 223 Remington cartridge…

This was my second effort to make this handgun shoot cast boolits. Some years back, a sharing member of this site sent me a good quantity of 22 caliber cast boolits…

They were: 225646, 225415, 22596, 225450 and 22-55-SP…

My 1st round of testing I used the following powders: AL-8, IMR-4227, UNIQUE, WC-844, and 2400…

The 2nd attempt, I used the following: H-4831, IMR-4198, IMR-4895, AA-5744, WC-680, SR-4759, WC-860 and Trail Boss…

I was shooting at 50 yards so as to be certain I was giving myself a fair evaluation of accuracy…

Long story short: Of the 54 groups I shot with many combinations of the powders and boolits, I got 7 (seven!) that stayed ≤1.0 inch at 50 yards…
(Several times the boolit never hit the 8.5” by 11” paper)

They were the 225646 boolit with AA-5744, WC-680, and WC-860…

The 225415 boolit with H-4831, IMR-4895, and IMR-4198…

And the RCBS 22-55-SP boolit with WC-860…

I then tried these combinations again in an effort to repeat the ≤1.0 inch groups at 50 yards…

Only the 225415 boolit with 20 grains of IMR-4895 accomplished this…

I had replaced the 7x Burris ‘scope used during the 1st round of tests with a Burris 3x-12x, so optics was not the problem…

Mostly discouraged, I thought I would try the load that I have used in this handgun for a good many years, 24.5 grains of IMR-3030 and the 50 grain V-Max bullet. I shot it at 50 yards and it placed 3 of those plastic-tipped bullets into 0.215” center to center. So, the problem with the lousy cast boolit groups was not shooter or handgun issues…

And, to further increase my confidence in this little 223 Remington cartridge, I filled several 12-ounce beverage cans with water and set them at 150 and 200 yards at my range. Not a problem at all with the 50 grain V-Max and the Burris on 12x…

Final conclusion: “That’s All Folks”. Only jacketed bullets for this 223 Remington…

And so it goes…BCB

[felix]

Yep! Arm-chair analysis: Barrel time is excessive which makes recoil the controlling factor. Shift maximum boolit acceleration location back to the bag fulcrum point which should be closer to the hands. Use powder closer to Herco in speed and boost pressure up to 40K plus or minus. Pistol primers for ignition. ... felix

[runfiverun]

hard to get across a tc's throat.

[NVScouter]

My 14: 223 T/C likes the faster pistol powders like Felix said. Its a cut down 16" and my Green Dot loads are about like a 22Hornet.

[BCB]

hard to get across a tc's throat.

Yep, for sure...

The ones I did get to touch the lands were not even in the case!!!!!...

I don't think any thing less than a 70 grain whatever kind of boolit/bullet will touch the lands...

[Larry Gibson]

Unknown what the loads were with all those powders but the 20 gr 4895 is about the top end of accuracy for a 12" twist .223 with that combination. Of the bullets you listed I say only the 225646 and the 225415 were capable of any real accuracy at any velocity. The 22596, 225450 and 22-55-SP all have too much unsupported nose. I've had limitied success with the 225646 and considerable succes with the 225415 in several TC barrels including my current 21" carbine. However, I don't see that you tried the two bullets that are usually the most accurate; that is the 225428 and, especially, the 225462. Might not give up until you try the best.........

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

I agree with r5r. Contender throats have been the demise of many hopeful lead bullet shooters. Friendly they are not.

[Taylor]

I feel your pain brother with my H&R.They have it now for "repairs".

[FLHTC]

Im assuming the OP is using 3031? I use that in my Contender Super 14 and at 18 grains. This proved to be promising at 50 yards since they stayed within an inch. Im going to go back and forth from 18 grains as soon as the weather clears a bit. I plan on doing further testing in a carbine barrel but im hopeful with this starting point.

[Fluxed]

I found it remarkably difficult to get consistently great groups with cast bullets in a very fine benchrest rifle I had built just for that purpose. For every 100 yard 3 or 4 sub .400 groups I'd have one that spread out to 5/8 or 3/4" or worse. Sitting down and shooting a string of 5 5-shot groups and getting a small aggregate from all 5 is a very daunting task even with the very finest equipment.

I think consistent 1 inch groups at 50 yards from a Contender is pretty good shooting.

[runfiverun]

fluxed.
you have to go full OCD when dealing with 22's.
just like the B/R guy's do with jaxketed.
you must also go to those extremes, or even further as far as the boolit is concerned.
quite often doing the opposite of what you think is necessary is the right thing to do with cast.

[felix]

Lube purging is the culprit! We are working on that with a lube to contain a good percentage of soap (sodium stearate for the most part of the soap component). This "final" lube should eliminate those flyers. ... felix

[BCB]

fluxed.
you have to go full OCD when dealing with 22's.
just like the B/R guy's do with jaxketed.
you must also go to those extremes, or even further as far as the boolit is concerned.
quite often doing the opposite of what you think is necessary is the right thing to do with cast.

I think Fluxed is correct in his thought on Contenders and cast, at least with the 22 caliber stuff…

I can’t even begin to get near the lands with the cast boolits I tried. The jump is amazing as I have discovered from crude measurements…

This long throat does not seem to affect jacketed bullets as much…

So, maybe an inch at 50 yards is “somewhat” acceptable. I was hoping for 1.5” stuff at 100 yards, but that isn’t going to happen. At least from this factory Contender barrel…

Sometimes we must accept what we have…

And so it goes…

BCB

[FLHTC]

I found it remarkably difficult to get consistently great groups with cast bullets in a very fine benchrest rifle I had built just for that purpose. For every 100 yard 3 or 4 sub .400 groups I'd have one that spread out to 5/8 or 3/4" or worse. Sitting down and shooting a string of 5 5-shot groups and getting a small aggregate from all 5 is a very daunting task even with the very finest equipment.

I think consistent 1 inch groups at 50 yards from a Contender is pretty good shooting.

One inch at 50 is acceptable for factory but my MGM barrel will shoot into a tight cluster at 100 yards with the 257388. lots of tin and close inspection will put me on target with the guys in jackets. My Encore in 223 is going out tomorrow so we'll see.

[Fluxed]

fluxed.
you have to go full OCD when dealing with 22's.
just like the B/R guy's do with jaxketed.
you must also go to those extremes, or even further as far as the boolit is concerned.
quite often doing the opposite of what you think is necessary is the right thing to do with cast.

Been there, done that.
I think we agree, but just saying it differently.
I'm saying its very very hard to get consistent fine accuracy with cast boolits as is available with the very best jacketed bullets - even when using the very best equipment and techniques. And I've shot plenty enough jacketed bullet BR competitively to have an opinion on the difficulties there. I applied all that and more to the cast bullet BR rifle. Its a tough nut to crack.

[Fluxed]

And not to talk trash about anyone's pet firearms, but go out and shoot 5 consecutive 5 shot groups and report back here. Then you'll see how it really shoots. Everyone has a "wallet group" but it takes more than once to prove anything about a guns real accuracy.

[FLHTC]

And not to talk trash about anyone's pet firearms, but go out and shoot 5 consecutive 5 shot groups and report back here. Then you'll see how it really shoots. Everyone has a "wallet group" but it takes more than once to prove anything about a guns real accuracy.

With Contenders, some won't shoot no matter what you do. I often load a dummy round to check the free bore and its amazing how bad dome barrels can be. I picked up an early Encore barrel last week in 223 and i have my fingers crossed that its a good one.

[detox]

Have you tried strait Linotype lead?

[runfiverun]

we are pretty much agreeing.
it's just sometimes making lead do what you want disagrees with what you would think is right.

a lot of the time it is simple.
like felix points out and if it's just a random lube purge flyer, it will drive you nuts trying to figure it out.
the flyers can be random too, just by ambient/barrel temperature changes.
or a humidity change depending on the lubes make-up.

sometimes I think it's a miracle we even hit paper.

[Pilgrim]

Rebarreled Ruger #1, .223, lapped barrel. Best group with that rifle and 22-055-SP is .242 @100 yds, 5 shot. I can't reproduce that group or come close to it, yet. It's time I get back to working with that combination. It's OK tomstep back, let the project/testing just sit for a bit and then return to the "wars".

[FLHTC]

Well i started out with a clean bore and my first five shot group at 50 yards with my carbine was around 5/8". I moved the scope about two inches and fired 5 more which grouped into an inch. Switched targets and again, one inch. I figured by this point, i should try 100 yards. What a disappointment. They opened to 2 1/2" but two rounds into the same hole. This was a seven shot group. I can still seat the bullet out another 045 making the OAL 2.165. That's my next step for another day. Its too damn cold out. One thing i do know is that 3031 is a winner with cast bullets in the 223. its just going to take some tweaking. I ran a brush down the barrel and nothing but powder soot.