An old west gun-woman & my 2 "notorious" ancestors

[texasnative46]

To All,

I've been reading the 'sticky thread" entitled OLD WEST GUNMEN and thought I'd tell you about my two "most notorious" ancestors, whose BLOODY reputation started during THE LATE UNPLEASANTNESS, 1861-65:

PVT WILLIAM J. (called: LITTLE THUNDER) FREEMAN, late of the 4th MO Partisan Rangers, MO State Troops. Joined the First Mounted Cherokee Rifles in February 1861, enlisting as a cavalryman in the Army of the Cherokee Nation from what is now Deleware County, at (probably) age 17. Nothing is known about his service in the Cherokee Rifles, except that he enlisted and served with the unit.
Sometime in 1863, he joined A Company of the 4th MO.
As best I can tell from the fragments of records, his squad leader in 4th MO was CPL Cole Younger and his company commander was CPT William (Bloody Bill)Anderson.
(There is nothing known, as to the identity of his platoon leader, IF there was a LT assigned to that platoon.)
Little Thunder fought in at least the following actions against the enemies of the Nation and of the CSA: Palmetto Springs, Pine Bottoms, Oak Tavern and many other ambushes, shootouts and "foraging expeditions" against the KS Militia, Jayhawkers, KS Volunteer Cavalry & the Redlegs, until he went home unsurrendered in late May of 1865 & returned to working on the family farm. According to his obituary from THE GROVE WEEKLY NOTICER (Now called THE GROVE SUN Of Delaware County, OK), in 1866, he was tried "in abstentcia"(sic) by KS state courtsmartial and sentenced to hang for war crimes, that he was accused of committing against "against Loyal Union Men". Shortly after that, he left the family farm and nothing is known of his whereabouts/activities (though he was said to have become "an outlaw and gunman in the locale of the Winding Stair Mountains") until some 6 years later, when he is listed as a Deputy US Marshal "in and for the Indian Territory".
(His Oath of Office as a DUSM is framed & attached to a wall at The Old Federal Courthouse in Ft Smith, AR.)
In the Spring of 1898, he was hired as the Operator of the Territorial Ferry across the Cowskin River and served in that job until his death "of advanced age" on 29DEC1914. He was buried in The Old City Cemetery at Grove Ok on the following Sunday afternoon.
Two other writings exist of Little Thunder:
1. A "Public Notice" from the KANSAS CITY STAR from May 1864, which states that, "A sum of 500 dollars in gold coin will be paid for the delivery of the person or the head of the blood-smeared Red Savage (sometimes known as James) Little Thunder Freeman, stealer of Army horses, bespoiler of government property and mercy-less killer of Loyal Union Officers, payable by the Kansas Volunteer Cavalry Officer Commanding at Olathe".
(A personal note: Did nobody tell the DYs that there was a "shooting war" going on in the USA/CSA?)
2. The body of a "letter home" dated 05NOV1862 (I have not corrected his spelling or grammar.):
My Beloved Sister Molly,
I tak pen to paper to tel you what is hapening here in camp. ---- We ar camped about 8 miles W of the pool where Mama was baptized by Pastor Collins. Everthin is alright now, as we took a yankee wagin loaded with power an shot yesterday eve. There was a great deal of foodstuf n the wagin so we will eat good for a goodly while. There was also whisky to-dont tell Mama that.
We kiled 4 yanks and I believe may have hit some others (ILLEGIBLE "smeared" place)
Ask Mama if she has a quilt or blanket or some other warm thing, as I lost the one that I had befor. - The night is cold now & i need one now, if you can send me one with the corporal.
My friend Fox has ast about you and he hopes that you will greet him warmly when we come on leve. - Fox is a good, Bible-reading man and would make a good man for you. He is brave and is good at getting foodstuf for us all.
I must close as the male is leaving. I will write again soon as I can.
Pray HARD for us , as we all want and need everbodys praying now. An read your BIBLE ever day.
Love from your bigest bro, LT

My other "notorious"ancestor was my G-G-G aunt, Elizabet Anne Parker, (called: SWAN FLYING), who was 15YO when the WBTS ended. Her "intended" was "killed while escaping from Army custody" in January 1865 & after that Swan "turned outlaw" and was "said" to have shot several yankee soldiers before the WBTS ended & afterwards, as well. She became a "shootist", bounty-killer, thief of KS livestock and helped rob at least one train in 1868. Swan was a notable horsewoman & was said to be "a dead shot with her Colt's pistol".
(There is much that I don't know about her next decade. Local lore says that she was a "sometime sporting woman", a "saloon girl", "gambler" and "associate of outlaws, robbers and killers of diver's sort." - She is listed in the GUIDE TO OKLAHOMA GUNMEN, OUTLAWS & GUNSLINGERS, published at Stillwater, OK in 1940.)
At Christmas of 1878, she returned to Delaware County to visit the family, met a young doctor, named D H Browning, from AL & married in 1879. They moved to Muskogee, OK, where he practiced medecine and they bought a farm to raise horses and mules for sale. Dr Browning died in the Winter of 1885 and Swan never remarried. They had two sons and a daughter, before his untimely death.
Swan continued to raise and race horses until her own death in The Spanish Flu Epidemic in November of 1918. She is buried beside her husband and infant son, in the Center Masonic Cemetery near Muskogee, OK.

note: When one "shakes the Family Tree" don't be surprized if a "bad apple" or 3 falls out. - As my 95YO Mother says: Swan & Little Thunder were either "dashing Southron cavaliers and freedom-fighters" OR they were "just pure trash". - It just depends on which side you believe was correct during the War.
(LOL)

yours, TN46

[TheCelt]

Thais is some pretty interesting history, especially the part about the redlegs. Ought ot be proud of that heritage, they both seem like fine folks to me!!

[texasnative46]

TheCelt,

As a member of one of the "Old Rebel Families", I celebrate their deeds for "The True Cause".

yours, tn46

[Reg]

Its fun to go back into family history but not always easy to do. I knew many of the oldtimers around here, quite a few were family and the one thing most of them had in common was they were tight lipped. In studying the old west and a lot of what happened back then you quickly find out a lot of what happened then would not have been accepted today.
I did turn up a few indian contact stories with my Great Grandfather and in one case with one of his brothers, a Sheriff came out to for some reason, words were said and Conrad shot the horn off the Sherriffs saddle with a trapdoor Springfield and told him to " GIT". I was told he got and didn't come back. Try that today and you would have the National Guard coming after you !!!

[Kent Fowler]

Its fun to go back into family history but not always easy to do. I knew many of the oldtimers around here, quite a few were family and the one thing most of them had in common was they were tight lipped. In studying the old west and a lot of what happened back then you quickly find out a lot of what happened then would not have been accepted today.
I did turn up a few indian contact stories with my Great Grandfather and in one case with one of his brothers, a Sheriff came out to for some reason, words were said and Conrad shot the horn off the Sherriffs saddle with a trapdoor Springfield and told him to " GIT". I was told he got and didn't come back. Try that today and you would have the National Guard coming after you !!!

When my Grand dad was 95 in 1955 (I was 5), my dad asked him if he wanted to watch an new show on tv called Gunsmoke. When Matt Dillon outdrew the bad guy on the opening scene, Granddad jumped up all agitated and was yelling " That ain't the way you did it. If you wanted to kill somebody, they got shot in the back with a shotgun." Since our family was here in Texas before the Civil War, I kind of figured he knew what he was talking about.

[felix]

I remember that same evening. Prolly the best western movie opening that could have been drempt up at the time. I read many years later the idea came from the opposing gun fighter, an American Indian, who was the "six gun" teacher for the cowboy actors in the 50s. The teacher still gets royalties from that scene, I assume, as he always did because of a law suite I read about the matter. Interesting stuff. ... felix

[texasnative46]

Reg,

AGREED. - As a NA (I'm a half-breed), I can tell you that my research has led me to the inescapable conclusion that the WBTS in the Trans-Mississippi, from 1855-65, was as much a "race war", as it was a "War for Southern Freedom" OR ,from the Unionist point of view, "a war to save the Union" and/or even "to free the slaves".
On one side, were the "Indian units", "rebel cavalry", "partisan rangers", "bushwhackers" and "border ruffians".
(About ONE QUARTER to ONE THIRD of the "southern irregular & guerrilla forces" in AR, IT & MO were either NA or "mixed bloods" of some sort.)

After a @9YO Osage/Cherokee boy named "SPOTTED CAT" was "sexually abused" by a gang of men & CRUCIFIED (and then his hands, feet and heart were removed & "delivered to" his family in IT.) His head was mounted on a spear & "displayed in the town center" at Lawrence, KS, by the KS Freestate Militia, the ATROCITIES became commonplace in "the UNCIVIL WAR in the West".
For example, after 4 NA women were gang-raped & then burned at the stake at a KS/IT "border crossroads", by the COL James Lane's (Who was a sitting US Senator at that time!) "Loyal Volunteer Cavalry", NEITHER side routinely "took prisoners", many scalps (and sometimes other body parts) were "taken as trophies" and unit members routinely killed their own wounded, rather than allow their compatriots to "be taken captive by the enemy".

Furthermore from the "Free-State" point of view, it was CHRISTIANS vs PAGANS & SAVAGES, who to quote COL Lane in THE FREESTATE ABOLITIONIST-MESSENGER, "Deserve whatever we choose to do to them. Why, they ain't even People; they are FILTH and have NO soul.".

FYI, our side (the NA groups) had members, who were just as SAVAGE & VENGEFUL as the worst of the KS killers. - MAD BADGER, a Kiowa warrior, (after his sister was murdered "by persons unknown") reportedly took over 100 Unionist scalps between 1858 and his death in 1863. - Some of his "victims" were civilians, who were unfortunate enough to be "available".
(Partisan warfare is hardly ever "PRETTY", humane or "GLORIOUS".)

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

KentFowler,

YEP. you are exactly correct. - Reportedly Swan wounded/killed any number of "yankees", from ambush, with her double-barrel, 14guage, shotgun loaded with nails, scrap metal & glass.
(My cousin, Beverly, owns Swan's shotgun. It's a British-made "sawed off".)

note to all: BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE by Dee Brown is well worth reading.

yours, tn46

[76 WARLOCK]

You should be very proud of those people, too bad we don't have more of them now.

[texasnative46]

To All,

To illustrate just HOW vicious that "the dirty border war" had become by 1862 (The war in the Trans-MIssissippi had begun in the Fall of 1855), the following is ONE of several "Oaths of Obiedience" that each "border ruffian" was required to swear to continue as a trooper/guerrilla fighter:

"I (state your full name) do hearby swear here before my comrades-in-arms to be obedient to the officers and sergeants appointed over me. As of this moment I declare that this is a fight to the eventual victory, regardless of when that victory may come and I further declare that we fight under the Black Flag, giving no quarter to the enemy and accepting none from any damnedyankee.
If I am directed to bring the hand, foot, head or heart of a damnyankee to my leader and I fail to do so, I will be accounted a traitor to our southern nation and to my fellows; the only acceptable reason for my failure to complete any task is my own death.
I will abuse no woman or child. Neither will I spare any male member of the damnyankee race and hereby declare that they arte mine own permanent enemy. In the face of the enemy, I will will neither retreat or surrender, even at the sure cost of mine own life nor will I allow any wounded comrade to fall into enemy hands.
All this do I willingly swear before Almighty God and do mark my oath with drops of my own blood."

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

Reg, et. al.,

You spoke of "tight-lipped". - This was even true of my own father, when I asked him about his service in B-17s, in the USAAF of WWII or my uncle who served in the USN in the South Pacific in WWII. - Neither one would let me interview them on tape about their combat experiences.
The valuable & REAL "1st person stories" that I have received was from a friend of mine, who during his final illness, told me about his service in detail in the CBI, with Merrill's Maurauders.- Talking to me took his mind off his constant pain and kept him (I think) from focusing so much on his approaching death.
(Truthfully, I don't talk about my service either, except to others who served with us. - Those who weren't here cannot understand. Those who were there, generally don't want to hear "war stories". Instead, we mostly talk, at our age, about children & grandchildren.)

yours, tn46

[Leslie Sapp]

Little Thunder Freeman, stealer of Army horses, bespoiler of government property and mercy-less killer of Loyal Union Officers

I like this guy already....:)

[blackthorn]

Great post! Thank you! The problem with folks being "tight lipped" is that a lot of truth gets burried along with them when they die. The loss of those truths allow PC Liberals (or partisans of the side that won) to "re-write history to suit themselves.

[Kent Fowler]

I remember that same evening. Prolly the best western movie opening that could have been drempt up at the time. I read many years later the idea came from the opposing gun fighter, an American Indian, who was the "six gun" teacher for the cowboy actors in the 50s. The teacher still gets royalties from that scene, I assume, as he always did because of a law suite I read about the matter. Interesting stuff. ... felix

That was Arvo Ojala. He said that scene paid for a lot of Cadillac's. He also made top notch holsters.

[Reg]

From my talking with a few of he old timers in my youth, this was back in the 50's and doing lot of reading since this business of being tight lipped was common for many reasons.
Quite often the wife of a known and respected cattleman had worked as a soiled dove prior to gaining respectability and yes, generally she was a good wife and actually deserved that respectability. Looking into history one fins that the Earp brothers quite often "worked" their wifes while they ran the gaming tables at night. Think not, check it out !!
Many men, because of the atrocities they had been involved in during the civil war went west and preferred not to talk about their past. From this came the western tradition of not asking a man his business or where he "hailed " from. Still applys around here today.
There are many customs like this that are still used today, sometimes for the same reasons but admittedly less so as time goes on.
As crude it all sounds today there were a lot of good reasons for these reasons and many more for being tight lipped.
It took a special person to "come west" back then. I would dare say that 99 percent of those today couldn't do it. It was a tough life in a rough country and took a tough person to get through it.
Many of the homesteaders back then had nothing when they came out here and I do mean not hardly the cloths on their back. The glorious image of the cowboy wearing the new Stetson with a Winchester and a Colt most likely was scrubby individual mostly dressed almost in rags and if they had any kind of a firearm it generally was some old single shot muzzle stuffer.
My own people came here as workers when the narrow gauge first came through and simply sat on land out in the canyon south of what is now called Robbs Crossing. When the first homestead act was passed the Calvary came through and ran them out as squatters. They were living in a dugout. My Uncle and I went out a few years back and found the few remains that were left. Not much.
My Grandfather was born in that dugout in 1887.

I can also see where being tight lipped would also be a trait of many who survived warfare. My father never talked much about WW2. Found out many years afer he was gone he survived as a waist gunner on a B-17 on that one disastrous Polesti oil field raid. Don't think I would want to talk much about tht one either.

[texasnative46]

blackthorne,

You are CORRECT. - Even when I was an undergraduate history student almost a half century ago, I understood that my father and uncle didn't want to talk about the things that they had personally done and witnessed. Nonetheless, it frustrated me for them to abruptly"change the subject". - Both of them are gone now and their experiences are LOST forever.

As famous British scholar, Arnold Tornbee, once said: "History is fiction, popularly agreed upon by tyrants & conquerers".

BTW, I'm recording my 95YO Mother's 1st person memories of being a young (beautiful) wife of a USAAF veteran of WWII. - I'm very glad that she is WILLING to talk to me & my recording device.- FYI, the Women's Studies Program AND 2 female professors of the History Department of a major TX university wants to read and possibly publish her memoirs, as their are few accounts of being a young USAAF bride at the dawn of the "modern era of flight", when B29 were "the latest thing". She also was present and saw the first test flights of US jet aircraft.
(Mother lived from the very early days of post WWI aviation to see the computer age come into its "middle age". - Her father/My grandfather had the very first "in home" telephone in my home county.)

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

Reg,

WELL SAID.

My Mother said that if you wanted to start a fight in her girlhood (read pre-1925), all that you had to do was ask a man, "What was your name in the states?"
(Many a person came to TX to BE someone else and to escape their past. - That's the prime reason that doing one's family history here is SO frustrating. - you come to a certain point and the ancestor simply "has no past".)

yours, tn46

[Huntducks]

My wifes dad's side of the family goes all the way back to JP Jones we have had a few personal things handed down to us over the years including a small painting of him in uniform, also had 2 Jones that served on each side (navy) during CW.

My FIL joined the navy right after pearl was in 6 yrs he was on a troop ship and drove a landing craft he made every major landing in the pacific with many being in the first wave, he did not talk about it much until his last 2 years before he passed away, we recorded some of it wish would have done more.

There was 2 other Jones brothers that came here from UK for the Yukon gold rush they never hit it, but I have there Win. rifles a 1873 1886 & 1892 two of them have notches in the stock supposed from number of bears killed???

[texasnative46]

huntducks,

You are LUCKY that your dad ever told you anything OR (especially) allowed you to record his experiences. - His 1st person accounts are "beyond price". - FACT.

yours, tn46

[wv109323]

The OP mentioned Cole Younger. There is an old family tale that I am supposed to be kin to him.
There is an interesting story about him.
Cole's father was in the Legislature of his state (IIRC it was Missouri). He was murdered on his way home from the Legislature. It was a mob of 30 men that killed him.
Cole was asked about the mob that killed his father some years later. His response was " Twenty-eight of them are dead and the other two are in California".

[10x]

My father was born in and spent his early years in Southern Alberta until 1927. There were many American cowboys who would come across "the Medicine line" to work on ranches in the area. All the cowboys (American and Canadian) carried handguns of some sort. Most had a lever rifle too. That is contrary to the revisionist history being created in Canada.

My grandfathers farm was situated where the range land of 3 large ranches joined. Ranch hands from all three ranches would stop for a hot meal, or to buy bacon, eggs, cream , butter, or sometimes just for the company of the kids. They talked among themselves in the evening and when they forgot my dad and uncles were present they related some interesting tales about their lives. Many of these guys were "on the dodge" from U.S. law men. Discussion around the fire was about the boys who got caught by the law, or turned in for the bounty and didn't come back. Cautionary tales.
My dad passed on some of these stories to me in the late 1950s and early 1960s - they were better than any movie ever made. Legends of the fall comes close.
Lonesome dove also comes close. My Aunt Clara who died at the age of 96 could not watch these movies because they triggered too many memories, good and bad.

My Grandfather was a genuine blacksmith and made horseshoes and horseshoe nails for the local Farriers on the nearby ranches. He repaired any and all bent and brokend iron and steel brought to him. He would not shoe a horse "That is farriers work" but he taught my dad and older uncles the art of blacksmithing. He would make horseshoes and my dad and uncles would put them on the horses.

He also farmed and ran cattle on a small patch of range land (about 2000 acres) between his property and the Little Bow River.

The family also played host (from time to time) to those who were at the battle of Little big horn, although those folk were shy and reserved. They would camp in the field across the road from the farmyard, carry water from the well, and trade for eggs and bacon. They would show up around the dates of the spring equinox. the third week in June, and sometimes just before Christmas to visit a holy site on Sundial butte a few miles away. They would never appear in September when cattle roundup was in mid swing.

[popper]

Wife's relatives always griped about the Union slaughtering their bind donkey & Miss Velvin was supposed to be Jesse's first 'secret' wife. Dad said he traced it back to Cromwell, but I don't claim to be related to that guy. Father in law said his side broke out of prison in France and went to three rivers, Canada. Visited there in 1996, quaint little berg with some real wild superstitions.

[texasnative46]

10x,

Pardon me but this is not "revisionist history". - Instead it is KNOWING LIES told by anti-selfdefense FANATICS.
Those LIARS must be "called out" for their LIES & RIDICULED until they flee in embarrassment & shame. - Our LIBERTY depends on MARGINALIZING the leftists.

yours, tn46

[10x]

10x,

Pardon me but this is not "revisionist history". - Instead it is KNOWING LIES told by anti-self defense FANATICS.
Those LIARS must be "called out" for their LIES & RIDICULED until they flee in embarrassment & shame. - Our LIBERTY depends on MARGINALIZING the leftists.

yours, tn46

Thank you for defining my point so clearly.....

[gefiltephish]

While I agree with your sentiment, the truth is that the "anti-self defense FANATICS" are psychopaths who are incapable of feeling embarrassment or shame. They will continue their onslaught until death, all the while proclaiming they do so in the name of righteousness and the "good of the collective". They can't be changed. They are nothing more than thieves who have so far successfully outwitted their victims. These are the same people who run the international banking cartel and pull the strings of puppet politicians in virtually all governments. The rest of us are simply victims, solely because we choose to be by refusing to stand up for our natural human rights, a position of principle.

[10x]

10x,

Pardon me but this is not "revisionist history". - Instead it is KNOWING LIES told by anti-selfdefense FANATICS.
Those LIARS must be "called out" for their LIES & RIDICULED until they flee in embarrassment & shame. - Our LIBERTY depends on MARGINALIZING the leftists.

yours, tn46


While I agree with your sentiment, the truth is that the "anti-self defense FANATICS" are psychopaths who are incapable of feeling embarrassment or shame. They will continue their onslaught until death, all the while proclaiming they do so in the name of righteousness and the "good of the collective". They can't be changed. They are nothing more than thieves who have so far successfully outwitted their victims. These are the same people who run the international banking cartel and pull the strings of puppet politicians in virtually all governments. The rest of us are simply victims, solely because we choose to be by refusing to stand up for our natural human rights, a position of principle.

But with luck they are not your notorious ancestors...

[Reg]

10x,

Pardon me but this is not "revisionist history". - Instead it is KNOWING LIES told by anti-selfdefense FANATICS.
Those LIARS must be "called out" for their LIES & RIDICULED until they flee in embarrassment & shame. - Our LIBERTY depends on MARGINALIZING the leftists.

yours, tn46

Rough night in the bar last night ???

[texasnative46]

Reg; all,

Sorry, but alcohol isn't "my thing". ( I probably haven't averaged a beer a month since I was in college, 4+ decades ago.) - CAFFEINE & CINNAMON ROLLS are my "addictions".

Also, underestimate those LOONS, who would take away our LIBERTY at everyone's risk/peril.
(May I suggest that you go read any of the socalled "gun control" discussions on http://washingtonpost.com/postpartisan and read the hate-FILLED attacks on everyone, who owns a firearm. - Btw, less than a month ago, a "contributer" said that he was a member of a "clandestine disarmement group" that plans to start "setting anyplace that sells guns on fire."
(He/she said that "I feel sorry for any cops or firemen that show up, cause we plan to make sure that them peoples stores burn down. - a couple of pigs & firemen dying means that they won't come the next time, they called.")
note: the "monitor" pulled that post down quickly, but not before several "readers" made "screen-shots".

As "gefiltephish" said, these loons are psychopaths & imo, as a retired LEO, extremely dangerous to anyone who gets in their way.
You might also want to follow some of the "links" on that "current events" board. - Some of the comments on sites "linked to" are downright scarey and there are lots of violent lunatics out there.
(May I remind everyone that before the shooting at Aurora, CO hardly anyone thought that going to the movies could be deadly or that some kook would go slaughter a bunch of 1st graders in CT, for no reason at all?)

yours, tn46

[Reg]

Just to clear the air a bit.

This thread is basically about our ancestors and some of the things they did that make us what we are today. I , for one, am enjoying the heck out of it. Want to see more.
Might be better to take political comments over to the Political and Religious section.
Don't get me wrong. I see where no one is disagreeing with you, some in fact could add to your thoughts it's just that I would rather hear more from 10X and others, and you about what their forefathers did.
I think we need it to get our thoughts away from some of the things that are going on today. I live in Colorado and believe me, we are going to get $#@&^*^%$ tomorrow. Something to lighten the air tonight would be greatly appreciated.


10X
The visitors you got, were they Cheyenne ?
Right after Custer got his card punched in Montana, my understanding is that the camp split into several different bands, some went north and at least one went south. The ones going south followed what was called The Smokey Hill Trail. Many oldtimers knew of this trail, it came down west of us to about what is now the town of Idalia then made a bend sweeping to the east eventually making its way to the Smokey Hills in southern Kansas and into parts of northern Oklahoma. I think this was their wintering grounds. Along the way since they were starting to get an appreciation of what they had done they began to throw out various items picked up on the battlefield. Saddle leather, clothing, personal effects you name it. Mitch Boyers ( misspelled that one !) gloves were found north I think either in the panhandle of Nebraska or extreme eastern Wyoming, have heard two stories. Back in the 30's they were elevating the road at the correction line west of Idalia and the machine operator dug up a Colt Army revolver. Was in bad shape and we never did get all of the serial number but it was a early one and easily could have been issued to the 7th. Tried to get my hands on that one but never did.
One older guy told me that for many years even up into the early 1950's they followed that Smokey Hill Trail and quite often camped along the river between Haigler and Benkleman Nebraska. Mostly stayed to themselves.
Anyway, they were Cheyenne that came through here and was just wondering if they might have been part of your bunch. Can you imagine traveling that far from summer to winter each year ??? By horse back and walking !!!!!
Reg

[10x]

Just to clear the air a bit.

This thread is basically about our ancestors and some of the things they did that make us what we are today. I , for one, am enjoying the heck out of it. Want to see more.
Might be better to take political comments over to the Political and Religious section.
Don't get me wrong. I see where no one is disagreeing with you, some in fact could add to your thoughts it's just that I would rather hear more from 10X and others, and you about what their forefathers did.
I think we need it to get our thoughts away from some of the things that are going on today. I live in Colorado and believe me, we are going to get $#@&^*^%$ tomorrow. Something to lighten the air tonight would be greatly appreciated.


10X
The visitors you got, were they Cheyenne ?
Right after Custer got his card punched in Montana, my understanding is that the camp split into several different bands, some went north and at least one went south. The ones going south followed what was called The Smokey Hill Trail. Many oldtimers knew of this trail, it came down west of us to about what is now the town of Idalia then made a bend sweeping to the east eventually making its way to the Smokey Hills in southern Kansas and into parts of northern Oklahoma. I think this was their wintering grounds. Along the way since they were starting to get an appreciation of what they had done they began to throw out various items picked up on the battlefield. Saddle leather, clothing, personal effects you name it. Mitch Boyers ( misspelled that one !) gloves were found north I think either in the panhandle of Nebraska or extreme eastern Wyoming, have heard two stories. Back in the 30's they were elevating the road at the correction line west of Idalia and the machine operator dug up a Colt Army revolver. Was in bad shape and we never did get all of the serial number but it was a early one and easily could have been issued to the 7th. Tried to get my hands on that one but never did.
One older guy told me that for many years even up into the early 1950's they followed that Smokey Hill Trail and quite often camped along the river between Haigler and Benkleman Nebraska. Mostly stayed to themselves.
Anyway, they were Cheyenne that came through here and was just wondering if they might have been part of your bunch. Can you imagine traveling that far from summer to winter each year ??? By horse back and walking !!!!!
Reg

I have no idea of which of several tribes it could be. The grandfathers farm was 500 miles from the Little big horn but less than 90 miles north of the medicine line. My grandfather knew the tribes and my dad mentioned there was occasion when the Indians camped in their pasture had history with Custer.

This is the medicine wheel at Sundial Butte, an impressive place where you can see the Cypress hills, Chief mountain in Montana, and the Rocky Mountains to the west. Been there at sundown on June 20 about 8 years ago and it is a powerful place. The monument itself dates back at least 4500 years and possibly 5000 or more. When one calculates the wobble in the earths tilt that is when the spokes of the medicine wheel line up with the rise and set of planets as well....
64653
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/18165143
In the teens and twenties the Indians still used teepees and travois on dogs and horses when they traveled. According to my dad they were a shy bunch and avoided contact with most settlers.

Little big horn was in 1876, and this was almost 35-40 years later - in the late teens and 1920s. It could have been a tribal link or it could have been some of the surviving warriors. My grandfather has been dead for almost 50 years and my dad for 20, so there is no one left to ask.

[OeldeWolf]

On my dad's side, his father was Cherokee. very little from there, except that as a young man he was in the /Cherokee Strip area. We've a littke more from hid second wife, who was 1/2 chocktaw.

But on my mom's side, we have fairly well back. French and Indian War, Reevolutionary war, War of 1812, and later in the fighting in KY. They were mostly educated, and lived exceptionally moral lives, A few establishing the first churches in variuos areas. But they did no seem to take well to too strong of a central authority. Were always heading to the borders of civilization. Helped build the fort that became the town of Pidgeon Ford. Civil War, on both sides of that. Got involved in the Texas war for independence. Looking back, seems like asll of them were closely associated with fire arms, way way back other weapons as well.

Guess I have a blood link to firearms, casting, and a liking for self reliance.

by the way, if any of you are trying to trace back lineages that end in the Lovelace family? Lovelaces came about when a widow changed her name from Lovelady, and moved a colony south. I am sure I can get the names and dates from my mom and sis if you need them. As to why the change, Richard Lovelady (I think it was a Richard), was friend to King Charles, and very handsome. He also earned the nickname "The Rake of England." She changed the name to leave behind the "tarnished reputation of the family."

It looks rather like the family tree might be a hazle tree... lol

[10x]

Snip
by the way, if any of you are trying to trace back lineages that end in the Lovelace family? Lovelaces came about when a widow changed her name from Lovelady, and moved a colony south. I am sure I can get the names and dates from my mom and sis if you need them. As to why the change, Richard Lovelady (I think it was a Richard), was friend to King Charles, and very handsome. He also earned the nickname "The Rake of England." She changed the name to leave behind the "tarnished reputation of the family."

It looks rather like the family tree might be a hazle tree... lol

I went to school with a couple of sisters who claimed to have royal ancestors. They traced their roots through baptism records in Germany right back to about 1740 to a "seamstress" who's address was a bordello. Not exactly what they wanted to find, but maybe better than a Gingerbread cottage in the Black forest...

[paul edward]

Get those stories on paper or tape before the old timers die.

We are lucky that my father wrote his memoirs as rancher, miner, border patrolman and pilot (WW2 & Korea).

These stories help explain to the younger generations who we are and from whom we are descended.

[texasnative46]

To ALL,

BTW, one of my best friends is The Principal Chief of The White Mountain Apaches.

Richard often wears a sweat-shirt with any number of historic Warrior Chiefs on the front, including his Great-grandfather (Geronimo!).The comment underneath reads: HOMELAND SECURITY SINCE 1492.

Incidently, Richard's G-G-G-grandfather was MANGAS COLORADAS, who was tortured to death by the Union Army because he wouldn't "rat out" the CSA's Treaty Party during "The Late Unpleasantness".
(To quote Willam Faulkner: "In the southland, the past is not gone. In fact it is not even past."

Speaking of NA Warriors of note: A Great-granddaughter of TARANTULA, the LAST of the Great War Chiefs of the Comanches (She actually remembers sitting in his lap & just MAYBE other things!) is alive & living in "an assisted living facility" here in SA. - I'm "negotiating with" her family to "get her on tape" before she Walks On.
Evidently, she cannot, at times "get around well" or remember what she had for breakfast, but she remembers her "notorious" Great-grandfather, when he was in his 80s and she was about 8-9YO, "like it was yesterday".
("Nesheeyela", called:"Auntie Nessie" to family, was his "pet".)

yours, tn46

[Reg]

You call the medicine wheel a powerful place. Never been there but have been to many battlefields all across the west. Only place I felt a "powerful" feeling was at Summit Springs. Not just once but every time I have been there. There seems to be few places that the Indians have a feeling for. You see a small amount of activity at Fort Robinson at the site where Red Cloud was killed but to me at least there dosn't seem to be any special feeling.
Summit Springs is a bit north and west of us on the county line south of Sterling. It is poorly marked and only a dirt track goes back into it. If you don't know what you are looking for you will miss it.
It is where the back of the Dog Soldiers was broken and Tall Bull and 52 warriors were killed. Every time I have been there it shows recent Indian activity. Dream catchers, coins,bones, bit of cloth all kinds of things laying around. Have never touched anything and won't. Just being there gives you a funny feeling that goes away as soon as you leave. Only other place I have ever felt such a feeling was at Andersonville Prison.

[10x]

You call the medicine wheel a powerful place. Never been there but have been to many battlefields all across the west. Only place I felt a "powerful" feeling was at Summit Springs. Not just once but every time I have been there. There seems to be few places that the Indians have a feeling for. You see a small amount of activity at Fort Robinson at the site where Red Cloud was killed but to me at least there dosn't seem to be any special feeling.
Summit Springs is a bit north and west of us on the county line south of Sterling. It is poorly marked and only a dirt track goes back into it. If you don't know what you are looking for you will miss it.
It is where the back of the Dog Soldiers was broken and Tall Bull and 52 warriors were killed. Every time I have been there it shows recent Indian activity. Dream catchers, coins,bones, bit of cloth all kinds of things laying around. Have never touched anything and won't. Just being there gives you a funny feeling that goes away as soon as you leave. Only other place I have ever felt such a feeling was at Andersonville Prison.

There are several kinds of powerful place - the kind that welcomes you and you feel comfortable - you like the place immediately.
and then the places where you don't feel comfortable and your skin crawls until you leave. Or the place where you feel sad and lonely til you leave. There are one or two old yard sites like that. Beautiful places to live, the folks who bought it decided to locate elsewhere, as far as possible from the place, rather than build a new home there.

There are no signs giving directions to Sundial butte, you have to know how to get there. The last mile or so is a track that starts at a Texas gate and crosses the open prairie.
I have stood on the top of mountains in the Rockies in Africa, the U.S., and Canada and the only place got close to the feeling that hit me at Sundial butte was at Spionkopp in Zulu Natal.

[Reg]

There are several kinds of powerful place - the kind that welcomes you and you feel comfortable - you like the place immediately.
and then the places where you don't feel comfortable and your skin crawls until you leave. Or the place where you feel sad and lonely til you leave. There are one or two old yard sites like that. Beautiful places to live, the folks who bought it decided to locate elsewhere, as far as possible from the place, rather than build a new home there.

There are no signs giving directions to Sundial butte, you have to know how to get there. The last mile or so is a track that starts at a Texas gate and crosses the open prairie.
I have stood on the top of mountains in the Rockies in Africa, the U.S., and Canada and the only place got close to the feeling that hit me at Sundial butte was at Spionkopp in Zulu Natal.

I know it sounds crazy but in our "evolution" I think we have lost something.
If you look at our religions in reality, they are mostly man made religions. I think they were based on real things in a very early time but just as the experts today want to mess with a simple and very beautiful way of conducting a country, men, through time, have changed the meaning and what happened back then to serve their own proposes. I think this is called human nature.
Many primitive people have their religion and mostly it seems to be based on nature in one form or another.
For as advanced as we portend to be not just in our religion but in our very living we have lost one (possibly more) very important element in awareness around us. What are dogs sniffing when they go sniffing around. Don't tell me the old lost bung hole joke, it's funny but have heard it before.
These powerful places. They are real. Too many people have felt them, some to more degree than others. Some are powerful enough that almost everyone comes away with some kind of feeling. Andersonville Prison. Sadness, very sad. Almost everyone who has been there has felt very strong sadness. Summit Springs. Even the very few I have taken there don't want to spend any time there. It isn't just the trinkets laying around but there is a very and I do mean very strong feeling that you ( me ) are not wanted there. This is not our place and we should leave. Think not. Go there.
Many who have visited places of great violence say there is a feeling to these places. Civil War battlefields for one.
I think earlier and in some cases, more primitive societies still have some ability to have this awareness and it tends to manifest itself in certain areas with deep meaning that are you might say,are sacred to them. Your medicine wheel sounds like such a place. Summit Springs is. It was the start of the downfall of the plains tribes with the breaking of the dog soldiers and they knew it.
For all the smarts we supposedly have I don't think we really have any understanding of the Indians. Who they were what they were really all about. The more I learn, the more I realize what I have been taught most of my life was either a fabrication to cover someones lack of knowledge or just a flat out right lie.

With that I am going to get off my soap box and go find another glass of wine. Thanks for the medicine wheel picture, would really like to see it someday. It reminds me of a spot up in Wyoming that my son and I found while fishing.
Was going on evening and we were camped down along a river. Chris got to thinking that Indians might have camped there at one time and we did get to looking and sure enough we found a lot of flint chippings along the east bank.
I still told him I didn't think that if they had camped there that they didn't always camp right on water especially if it was warm in the summer but would have gone on the bluffs above the river and just over the edge. Generally the prevailing winds would have come from the west and would have gained a bit of velocity as they went over the top and made camping cooler and much less bugs by camping up there. Still had a bit of daylight so we went up and had a look.
I bet there was at least a dozen tipi rings and even more fire rings up there. Smart they were.
OK, wine time.
Reg

[Char-Gar]

As an unreconstructed Confederate I applaud the deeds of your noble ancestors.

Confederate Cherokee units only fought as units at the battle of Pea Ridge in Arkansas. The performed much violence on the Yankees and received bad press all across the North as "savages". After that, they were broken up into small groups and assigned as scouts/spies with other units. It is difficult to track Cherokee Confederates after Pea Ridge. My GGGrandfather was at Pea Ridge with the 11th Texas Cav. CSA.

I had two GGGrandfathers and one GGrandfather who served in Texas units (CSA), during the War of Southern Independence. We came to Texas in 1842, too late to kill Mexicans with Houston, but in time to kill their share in 1846 with Zachary Taylor. The GGrandfather mentioned above served in the Texas Rangers 1858 - 1860, with Captains Ford, Burleson and Pitts. Killed a few Comanche in the process.

I am proud of all these folks, for they rendered good service to the people of Texas. We would not have the Texas of today without the Texans of then.

[TheCelt]

Dang, this is good stuff folks. Please keep it coming as it crosses your mind, this is the history they should be teaching in schools!!

My family immigrated to the US in the early 1840's. The Scots weren't treated very well but my GGGrandfather, one of the three brothers that immagrated, did quite well. His son was a Major in the war but served only briefly before being killed by a picket fence!! His horse threw him in snow that just covered the fence and unfortunately he landed on it. My Grandfather was a Marine during WW1 and saw battle in the Phillipines and Guam. My Father missed WW2 but served with the Marines in Korea. I got my turn in Viet Nam and my son stood tall in Desert Storm. I figure our family has served our country well and long.

[Kent Fowler]

As an unreconstructed Confederate I applaud the deeds of your noble ancestors.

Confederate Cherokee units only fought as units at the battle of Pea Ridge in Arkansas. The performed much violence on the Yankees and received bad press all across the North as "savages". After that, they were broken up into small groups and assigned as scouts/spies with other units. It is difficult to track Cherokee Confederates after Pea Ridge. My GGGrandfather was at Pea Ridge with the 11th Texas Cav. CSA.

I had two GGGrandfathers and one GGrandfather who served in Texas units (CSA), during the War of Southern Independence. We came to Texas in 1842, too late to kill Mexicans with Houston, but in time to kill their share in 1846 with Zachary Taylor. The GGrandfather mentioned above served in the Texas Rangers 1858 - 1860, with Captains Ford, Burleson and Pitts. Killed a few Comanche in the process.

I am proud of all these folks, for they rendered good service to the people of Texas. We would not have the Texas of today without the Texans of then.

GGrandfather: 1st Battalion, Texas Sharpshooters (Burnet's)
GGrandfather: 3rd Regiment, Alabama Cavalry, Wheelers Division (came to Texas right after war)
GG Uncle: 3rd Regiment, Alabama Cavalry, Wheelers Division ( KIA Battle of Stones River, Murfreesboro, Tennessee)
GG Uncle: Co. D. 1st GA. Cavalry Volunteers, Scotts Brigade, Wheelers Division (WIA, Somerset. Kentucky, imprisoned at the infamous Camp Douglas, Chicago, Ill. for the duration,)

[Rafe Covington]

TheCelt,

As a member of one of the "Old Rebel Families", I celebrate their deeds for "The True Cause".

yours, tn46

I salute your family who fought for "The True Cause", we lost alot in our family fighting in the "Army of N. Virginia"

Rafe

[texasnative46]

Rafe Covington, et.al.,

FYI, FOUR "good 'ole rebels" from our family were murdered in cold blood at the Yankee DEATH CAMP in far southern MD, as they were AmerIndians & "not thought to be worth feeding".- All four were from the 23rd NC Infantry & their names are on the foot of the large monument.
(MOST of the African-Americans, Asians, "foreign volunteers", Jews, Latinos, Native Americans and Roman Catholics did not survive being "guests of the yankees".)

Depending on which one of the yankee-apologists that you believe, 3500, 5000 or about 6500 are ADMITTED to have died at that hellhole. (Camp Douglas in Chicago or The Prison Hulks in the Hudson River near NYC were no better and equally deadly.) - The best number that I can figure for death at a POINT LOOKOUT was somewhere between 12-15,0000 dead Confederate POWs, who died of starvation, filth diseases, exposure to the elements, beatings, bayoneting, drownings or by gunfire by members of the guard force.

Note: The first known use of the term "Concentration Camp", appears in the report of a Prussian "Observer" (A Major in the 4th King's Imperial Hussars), who described Point Lookout as, "DAS KONZENTRAZIONLAGER". The Observer stated that, "If this war continues for many more months, NONE of the inmates of the concentration camp will survive, due to intentional denial of food, necessary medical care, warm clothing, blankets, tentage, water and many died of INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE by the Army personnel, there assigned." (emphasis: mine.)

Note 2: Of the 18 boys (from both sides of my family), who went off to fight for the PACSA, 11 returned home. One of those eleven died of his wounds, literally in the family home's front yard, in Lake Corinth, MS.
It should also be noted that one young matron of our family, named Mary Elizabeth Leticia B. Martin, "followed her husband to war", was a volunteer nurse (in what we today would call a Battalion or Regimental Aid Station) and was killed by artillery fire, near Atlanta. (While not "a member of the forces", we honor her memory and sacrifice of her life to save others.)

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

To ALL,

I have to tell you that the son & 2 daughters of "Aunt Nessie", great-granddaughter of TARANTULA & the LAST person who KNEW him, have DENIED permission for me to interview her at the nursing home, before she "walks on". - They said that talking to her, "Might un-necessarily upset her".

For the sake of our shared history, if you have living elders in your family, INTERVIEW THEM about their life story and SAVE copies of the "taping".

yours, tn46

[white eagle]

very interesting
wonder sometimes what others would think of where we are now

[Whiterabbit]

Swan Flying?

You had a relative (two) that had names, and one's name was Swan Flying, or Swan for short? That is the most fantastic Old West name I have ever heard. That's gonna put a smile on my face for the rest of the day.

[Jim..47]

You are very lucky to have the knowledge that you have of your family lines, and ancestors. My grand parents on my mothers side were from Oklahoma too, indians by the name of Savage and Pierce. But unfortunately I know almost nothing about them. In fact the only thing I can remember is my GrandMa's brother came from the Oklahoma reservation once a year to visit his sister and family. I can still remember him, his name was Marvin. He sure had a red face, possibly from the desert sun? GrandMa was pure white, so I don't know.

On my Dad's side I have a lot more knowledge of my Grand Parents. There were English and Irish. My faf had brilliant red hair till he started losing it. He served in the Marines in WWll on IwoJima. He told me about all the killing and the mounds of the dead, but beyond that he didn't talk much. His brother, my Uncle Al also served in WWll. Luckily them both came home in one piece.

My Dad told me he was treated real poorly when he was growing up in Ohio during the depression. He was from a poor farmer family and had red curly hair. All the bigger boys would bully him, so he learned well how to fight and could take anyone. Made a good Marine. When his big city kin would come out in the fall to go pheasant hunting on the farm they would all bring him and GarndPa boxes of shotgun shells. They had good food to eat being farmer, but no money to but such silly things as ammo, or new clothes or about anything else.

I remember GrandMa telling me she hand fed about 10,000 chickens and watered them. They only had old pumps that had the big iron handles and no electricity. GrandPa told me how he would hook up the horse to harness and head for the woods in the morning to cut a big tree to make a watering trough, and would have it all hewn out by dinner time. He said his back was so strong he felt like he could lift one end of a box car. He was a hard worker for sure, and I was lucky enough to work with him for a few years helping him in his trade as carpenter and a mason.

I sure wished I know more about my Indian heritage, but its gone for ever. So to hear about others family trees is a nice treat.

Its a real shame about how the north treated the Indian and others. You would have thought they learned from being treated the way they were when they left Europe.

Thanks for the very vivid pictures from your past.

[texasnative46]

Whiterabbit,

Just found your post. - SORRY that this is such a "overdue response" but I've been very involved in caring for (as best as I can -I'm NOT a "natural" at "care-giving") "sick folks" in the family.

Swan Flying was called "Swan" by family & close friends.
(Her name, however, is NOT as "AmerIndian-sounding" as Little Thunder's whole name in TSALAGIYI was, believe it or not: "Thunder that is so far away that you can barely hear it". ====> Now you know why the family called him "Little Thunder" & his friends usually called him, "LT".)

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

whiterabbit,

MOST NA names originally "meant something", if we only knew what. - One that I'd like to know the WHY of is a Kiowa warrior whose name was: BITES HIS OWN ARM HARD.
(MUST have been a story there once.)

Among my people, oftentimes the child was named after the first thing that the mother saw, after giving birth. - For example, the old cowboy star CLU GULLAGHER (his NA name is: CLU CLU, which means RED BIRD.) always quipped that he was really glad that his mother didn't first see the outhouse.

yours, tn46

[Bigslug]

“Thus ended the great American Civil War, which must upon the whole be considered the noblest and least avoidable of all the great mass conflicts of which till then there was record.” - Winston Churchill, A History of the English-Speaking Peoples.

A fascinating time - doubly so once you get outside the grade-school history book accounts of Potomac vs. Northern Virginia. As with a lot of wars, atrocities occur on both sides at the hands of people who think they are (a.) doing what it takes to win, and (b.) going to be the victorious writers of the "official" history. Those on the losing side tend to make an effort to vanish into anonymity - the Confederates to the Western Territories, and 80 years later, the Nazis to South America.

A big "what if" debate topic of the Civil War is of course how the institution of slavery would have continued, transformed, or ended in the event of a Southern victory and what the historical progression would have been had that been the case. What nobody has really pondered (that I'm aware of, anyway), is how the Native American would have fared under those conditions. The NAs had plenty of reason by 1860 to fight against the Union, and the troop-short Confederacy was willing to take anyone willing to point a rifle at something blue, and willing to make all manner of agreements to make that happen. On the balance, the North wasn't fighting for abolition or racial equality (one need look no farther than the later Indian Wars or segregation policies to see that), and the South had every bit the Monroe Doctrine Westward expansion mindset the North did. I tend to think the post-war Indian would have been poorly off no matter the outcome.

[Jim..47]

BigSlug, I always enjoy reading your posts and the history revealed in this thread about our Native Americans. What I would really like to know is when and where these NA's came to America and from where?

Also, a side note. I am a small part of a Cherokee, about 1/4 I believe, through my GrandPa and GrandMa, Grandpa was Savage by name, and my GrandMa was Pierce by name. Do you know anything about these two names? Please don't go into great detail unless you have the extra time.
Thanks Jim

[texasnative46]

BigSlug,

A few comments from a "minor scion" of "one of the old rebel families", who is also a "half-breed":

1. Only ignorant people (who haven't done any appreciable amount of research from official records) believes that "chattel slavery" was "THE CAUSE" or even a "major cause" of TWBTS, as only about 6% of southerners ever owned a slave.
(That 6% and a SMALL/NOISEY minority of northerners CARED about "the plight of the slaves" & the other 90+% of free-persons couldn't have cared less. - Nobody, of course, asked the slaves for their opinions.)
2. The PACSA was about 25% "persons of colour", including 18 members of my family.
3.Had the CSA won, I believe (based on my research) that 2 things are true:
a. Slavery would have SOON died out, due to advances in agriculture. = The coming of The Industrial Revolution to agriculture would have made slavery UN-economical SOON.
b. The CSA would have NOT wished to get into "a shooting war" with us NA, inasmuch as the CSA had NO real standing army (> 95% of the PACSA were draftees, privately raised formations or state militia units & those personnel would have soon "returned to civilian pursuits".) and (if victorious) wouldn't have been able to afford such an army for DECADES & there would have been a HOSTILE/defeated nation to the north of Dixie's border for a LONG time.

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

Jim..47,

Check out the book: AMERICAN DAWN: A New Model of American Prehistory by Louis A. Brennan.

There were at least THREE big migrations to North America from Asia:
1. About 30,000 BC - From BERENGIA or possibly the area that is today's India - The WOODLAND cultures.
2. About 10,000-20,000 BC - From China/Mongolia - The PLAINS and DESERT SOUTHWEST cultures
and
3. About 300-400 years ago from Northern Russia. - The TINGLITS, ESKIMOS, etc of Canada & Alaska.

yours, tn46

[Jim..47]

Thanks TN46. I guess I'll have to renew my library card heh? [smilie=l:

[texasnative46]

To ALL,

I have once more been away from this forum again for a long time, taking care of sick folks. - UNFORTUNATELY, I found out last Tuesday PM that "Aunt Nessie" has "passed away peacefully in her sleep" in early June 2014, so there is NOW nobody remaining alive, who knew TARANTULA, the last of the Comanche war leaders. - That's a PITY, as NOBODY recorded her memories of him.

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

I guess I'll have to renew my library card heh? [smilie=l:

ALWAYS a GOOD PLAN, imVho.

yours, tn46