SLug load help for a Baikal 12ga

[cpileri]

Dear Sirs and Ma'ams,

BLUF: need cheap, light-recoiling, accurate 12ga slug load. Preferably using the undesireable Winchester High-Strength (narrower inside at base) 2.75" plastic hulls; since I have alot of them.

I am trying to develop a light "plinking" slug load for a 12ga Baikal break open shotgun. The elderly-but-healthy shooter who will be using it is limited to slugs only at his range, and the range is 25yds or less.
Slugs being expensive commercially, he tried the Aguila mini-shells, and likes the lack of recoil and price; but they are not even on paper at 25yds (note: he is otherwise a good shot, so its not him). After measuring an Aguila slug I found it to be .709- kind of an odd diameter for a slug, and I figure between bore fit and the short 2-inch shell and 3-inch chamber and forcing cone, that explains some of the problem if not most of it. The Commerical reduced-recoil slugs are accurate and pleasant to shoot, but far too expensive for the realtively frequent target practice he does.

I havent slugged the bore of the Baikal yet, nor do I know which, if any, choke he is firing through.

I plan to slug his bore next time I visit him, and will use a slug or slug-in-shotcup to get the correct "slip fit" necessary for good accuracy from this smoothebore.

So given the unknowns of bore measurements and choke, I am looking for safe load data that will be easy on the shooter (for reference, the Aguila is a 7/8-oz slug-and-basewad at approx 1250fps)(*) that I can just apply to the proper slug once the bore is measured.

Also, I have been sitting on a big bag of the Winchester High-Strength hulls, the ones nobody wants; and since this load i am seeking is a light one, i was hoping to use them. They are once-fired, so have a fold crimp memory at the mouth. But that can be trimmed if a roll crimp is necessary.

Any good powder/charge recommendations out there? (**)

Many many thanks,
C-

(*) approximatly equivalent recoil impulses to 385gr @ 1250fps including but not limited to: 440gr at 1100fps, 495gr @ 975fps, 530gr@900fps, and 585gr@825gr; but i will take en even lighter load as this is for short range, paper shooting only. Accuracy and cost are prime considerations.

(**): Of course, when the bore is slugged, i will revisit this thread with the new data.

p.s. I know, i am into heavy slugs lately, but this load is not for me. Still fun though.:)

[cpileri]

I should mention,
other components can always be purchased but on hand i have:

Hulls: Prefer the undesireable Winchester hulls, but have others

Primers: CCI 209, Fed 209, Rem 209, few Fiocchi 616
Powder: a variety but not alot of any one, like a pound or less of each: Unique, HS-6, Blue Dot, Green Dot, Universal Clays, even Trail Boss if it can be used (since powders are in shortage, using one already available is best). Have some 4227 but was saving that for my heavy loads.
Wads: CB12's, some card wads (hard and fiber fillers), some specialty BPI wads (turkey ranger, etc) and even a bag of those 12-ga felt donut hole wads and some x12x gas seals. I dont necessarily need/want to use any particular wad, if the slug-to-bore fit is good; which as stated i dont know yet.

Slug: can be any, as i will be buying them. SO any readily available sized round ball or slug type that meets the accuracy and cost criteria.

Crimp: can be fold or can be roll if i prep the hulls or use a new hull.

Also, these will be fired in an indoor range, climate controlled more or less, and in California where even the worst weather is realtively temperate. yes, a gun owner in California!

Anything I missed?

Many thanks!
C-

[jmort]

I would use Unique or Blue dot. 25 grains of Unique should do it.

[cpileri]

Is 25gr Unique OK with the 1oz or lighter slugs? i heard it needs at least 1&1/8 to avoid bloopers. And what velocity (and thus recoil impulse) are you getting with that powder charge?
Thanks, Sir!
C-

[longbow]

In my view either Lee Drive Key slugs or plain old round balls of 0.678" diameter are probably your best bet.

Both fit into shotcups and will both go through chokes. They are also 1 oz. so for plinker loads you can use any equal weight birdshot load, including low recoil loads which are published in some manuals.

I am very partial to round ball loads in my smoothbores but am still trying to stretch range to 100 yards so slugs are still on the menu. Round ball loads are hard to beat to 50 yards though. My good round ball loads run 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards from smoothbore.

If the gun has chokes tighter than I/C, it would be better to use BPI's brush wads and round balls. The round balls will sit in the brush wad cup (no petals) and stay centered in the bore and so will go though any choke except maybe an extra full turkey choke.

Round balls are easy to cast and easy to load. I would go that route especially if he is just shooting 25 yards.

My $0.02.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Yes, just 25yds. Informal plinking at paper only.

I did find a load using these HS hulls in an article by Tom Armbrust:

Hull: 12 GA 2-3/4" Winchester HTS
Primer: Winchester 209
Powder: 21 GR Alliant Green Dot
Wad: Winchester WAA 12 (white)
Shot: 1 oz 8 lead
velocity averaged 1211 FPS EV 26, pressure 8200 LUP, EV 600

Which is a little more oomph than a 75-yr old shoulder wants, but should be workable- esp w a .678"RB (weight 469gr, or ~ 1&1/16oz) in a cup and a bit less Green Dot, looking for 1025-1050fps (or less). Other loads from loaddata for 1&1/16oz shot (hard to find, so used average of 1oz and 1&1/8oz) for green dot in that velocity range show a powder charge of ~17.5gr, giving ~1090fps and a very low pressure.
Looks like I just need to slug the bore and find the right wad cup for the ball or slug, depending on how it measures.
C-

[longbow]

You might try this load from Slugs R us Hammerhead load for 1 1/8 oz. slug:

- 2 ¾” Reduced Recoil: 17 gr Green Dot = 1,050 fps

Their hull of choice is Cheddite "or any straight walled hull" but since the powder charge is below the Win AA charge it will be safe. It may produce a little more pressure and velocity than the 1050 FPS but will be mild especially since you will be using a lighter slug if you load the 0.678" RBs..

They do not list a primer.

My feeling is that Green Dot is a good choice as it is a fairly fast powder so bloopers are unlikely.

I would use at least one 1/8" nitro card wad in the shotcup and a scoop of COW under the ball to bring it up to good crimp height.

You can also use other reduced recoil recipes for 1 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. slugs. I may have some listings for components you have if you let me know what you plan to use.

Longbow

[dverna]

It would seem to me that a 1 oz load at 1100 fps is going to be more what you are looking for. I would use Promo (Red Dot), or Clays (Claydot). Just from memory a 17 gr load should do the job. For even less recoil you could go with the 7/8 oz Lee mold at 1000-1100 Fps.

[longbow]

As another comment on fit, if you find that there are chokes and a 0.678" ball is too tight with a shotcup. 0.662" is also available and weigh exactly 1 oz. in pure lead so a little less in wheelwheights. The 0.662" call is slightly sloppy in most shotcups and cylinder bores but can be patched, wrapped or sat in a cup to center it. I have had good results with 0.662" balls as well.

While I don't think Green Dot would result in bloopers, a faster powder like Red Dot would certainly work as well or better in appropriate charge.

Longbow

[cpileri]

You guys rule!
Thanks for the info about the round balls. I am leaning towardsthe .678 in a shotcup, since the diameters in various wads has been posted by VdoMemorie, and the info about the .662 being exactly 1oz is also perfect for what I am planning. Is there a commercial source for the .662? (edit: found them at Track of the Wolf!)
Cabelas has the best price I could easily find on .678s.

If I can find any, what is an appropriate charge for Red Dot with 1oz or 1&1/16oz balls?

I wish I had some Red Dot. i looked at Cabelas in Buda TX last weekend, and found exactly 6(six) canisters of powder total, of a few kinds (Leverevolution, etc) but nothing I wanted; and no Red Dot or Titewad.
Titewad is what BPI's leaflet recommends for subsonic loads.
C-

[longbow]

I will try to look for load data later or tomorrow but I am pretty sure I have reduced recoil load data that would work for you. In fact that Green Dot load should work fine but I will see what else I have. I can't remember if I mentioned it but BPI sells single sheets of reduced recoil load data.

If you don't have chokes or at least tighter than I/C then the 0.678" ball mould should work best. TOW should have those too at $68.00 when I got mine recently. They should also have 0.662" ~ both Lyman though RCBS also makes a 0.678" RB mould but it is more expensive. If you have tighter than I/C chokes then the 0.662" ball may be better.

I am thinking any fastish powder like Red Dot, 700X, Clays, Green Dot and light birdshot loads (1 oz.) or reduced recoil loads with the balls of approx. 1 oz. should do what you want.

RB's are really easy to cast and load too.

Longbow

[longbow]

Well, not sure how much this will help.

The Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook 4th ed has quite a number of low recoil loads but most are still running 1150 to 1220 FPS.

These are recipes for Win AA hulls with a variety of powders including Red Dot, Clays, WST, 700X, Int. Clays, Green Dot and WSL.

The HammerHead reduced load I posted above would be milder especially since it is for 1 1/8 oz.

Let me know what components you plant to use and I will check for loads.

For example, there is one here for Win AA hulls, Green Dot @ 19.5 grs, Win 209 primer, Win AA12SL wad, 1195 FPS, 9,300 PSI.

Longbow

[cpileri]

It helps alot!
I think now that i have an idea tha 17-ish grains of green dot are safe in fold crimped Win HST hulls, I will probably go with that, plus the CB12 wads (and necessary cards or filler to raise the ball to crimp height) and whatever size round ball fits best in the bore- which I plan to slug end of March.
C-

[cpileri]

Actually, the wads i have most of are CB1118-12 (Claybusters 12ga 1&1/8oz) and Win AA Super-Lite (pink).

[cpileri]

Here's a new Load of the Week from BPI, which although using different components, at least confirms the use of Green Dot.

Load# 51005-862R

HULL: Fiocchi 12GA 2.75”

PRIMER: Fio616

PROPELLANT: Alliant Green Dot 18.0 gr.

WAD: REX24

SHOT: 3/4 oz. (328 gr.) Lead #8

FOLD CRIMP: 6-point

Result: 7500 PSI 1085 FPS


This one is only pushing 3/4oz at 1085fps, so maybe the 1oz slug will be too slow? I guess we'll see. Seems like whatever variation I choose, it will be a safe load. That's always my first concern.

C-

[longbow]

The slug will have less bore resistance so may have a little higher velocity than the shot load with equal charge. At the same time, less bore resistance means less pressure so maybe a trade off there.

I would try that Hammerhead load and see how it goes. If it does what you want great. if not then there is certainly some room for stepping up the charge a bit at a time until you get where you want to be... at least to max recommended Green Dot charge but I suspect that will be a hotter load than you are looking for.

Just another $0.02 worth.

Longbow

[303Guy]

A friend got the idea to cast slugs and got the idea of using a socket spanner for a mold. The one he had was a trifle small so he would squeeze then in a vice to fatten them. I don't remember his next step, perhaps he screwed a was onto the base but whatever he did they shot well enough.

Anyway, I'm interested in shooting round ball in my choked single shot 12g. I got it to use for silenced subsonic shot but that idea fell by the wayside. Slugs are still on the menu though. So, how would an undersize round ball carried by a wad do? I'm thinking of 1050 fps for suppressed loads with a ball small enough not to be influenced by the choke. But not that small that it looses it striking power!

[longbow]

303guy:

For ease of loading I like to use 0.678" RB's in standard shotcups. They weight a little over an ounce in wheelweights and are perfect fit in many standard shotcups so very convenient. Also, I tend to get better accuracy using shotcup rather than full bore balls though with the right hard card wad column 0.735" balls do well too... but they are more work to load.

Ah! Just reread and you have a choke. What you want to do is measure choke diameter then pick a wad and mic the petals (probably around 0.020" to 0.025" with a taper of a few thou ~ look for Ajay's posts on slug/ball/wad fit he has posted some very good info). In any case, you want the ball/wad combo to be no more than about 0.003" over the choke constriction. I would go for same size or a hair under as whenever I shoot overly snug fitting wads, petals shear and accuracy drops off.

There are actually a few options:

- undersize ball in shotcup ~ 0.662" or 0.678" are both good choices depending on choke constriction and shotcup choice. 0.662" balls are quite a bit undersize so I have cloth patched them into hulls and shotcups or used crossed paper strips
- same balls using donut wads or brush wads ~ easier than patching
- larger ball like 0.690" sitting on a donut wad or BPI brush wad ~ that will fit through anything but a tight full choke and provide more mass

0.662", 0.678" and 0.690" ball moulds can be had from Lyman and all mine cast very well and actually a few thou oversize. Lee makes o.690" ball moulds which are quite inexpensive and scissor type moulds can be had at Track Of The Wolf in 0.680" for $40.00 US.

If your choke will accomodate a larger ball there are 0.710" and 0.715" moulds available too. However, I would go with 0.662" or 0.678"/0.680" in a shotcup or brush wad. If using a shotcup you want to put a nitro card wad or two under the ball and also a scoop of cornmeal or COW (I am sure your preferred wheat bran could also be used). Brush wads should be find as is since they have a sturdy cup but I have not tried them yet so am no expert.

Good loads should get you 4" or smaller groups at 40 yards.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Many thanks again. I'll be slugging the bore this weekend and will check in here to keep everyone posted.
C-

[cpileri]

OK! This is going to work well i think! The bore slugs to .727 which serendipitously is the measurement of a .678 rb in a Win AA wad according to the pic mr. Vdomemorie posted here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190170-Shooting-round-balls-Range-report&p=2109160&highlight=#post2109160 . A 20ga nitro card or donut card or some buffer to prevent blown wads and i think this is a good start. Load w abt 17gr Greendot and ill let everyone know how it shoots! Just need to lay in a bunch of .678 round balls! Wont get chance to load till next week but i am excited! Thanks all for your learned advice! C-

[longbow]

It sounds like you are getting it all together.

You might try one, two and maybe even three nitro card wads under the ball as the height changes will not only set crimp height but also change the fit to bore a bit as petals are tapered. As mentioned, a small scoop of COW or cornmeal is also a help and can be used to set ball height as well.

It is best to test bore fit using nitro card wads to place the ball at correct height then figure out how much COW is needed to replace a card or two. Best to have at least one nitro card wad under the ball. If fit is best with the ball sitting low then trim off any petal that sticks up above the ball.

Something else I just remembered ~ make sure there is some wad pressure when you crimp. It doesn't have to be a lot but the payload should be held firmly against the powder. Ball height affects that was well so if the ball sits low and there is no wad pressure, you will have to raise the ball a bit, crimp deeper (easy with a roll crimper but not so easy with a fold crimp), use a wad with longer cushion or use a nitro card wad on top of the powder to space the wad up..

You are off to a good start. I think that will be a fairly mild load and the Green Dot should be a good choice. Keep us posted on results.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Can one still buy rifled shotgun casings? Anyone ever tried them?

[cpileri]

whats a rifled shotgun casing?

[longbow]

If you mean rifled slug, yes they are still available but the "rifling" is purely cosmetic. It may have originally be added with the intent of air drag causing the slug to rotate but that is not the case. Even Brenneke with their very deep "rifling" says the ribs do not impart spin. The ribs are there to allow for squeezing through a choke should they be shot through a choked shotgun.

It may have also been a marketing ploy.

Lyman Foster slug moulds cast very much undersize (mine casts at 0.705") and I suspect the main reason is that Lyman also used to sell a "rifling" swage tool to swage grooves into the slug which of course cause upset and would have either made the slug longer or larger diameter. If the design allowed the lead to displace into the grooves in the die then 0.010" each side would about do it to make the slug bore diameter. Not sure if that is true but that is my take. Why else would they make such an undersize mould when the slug obturates to fill the barrel anyway?

SluggerDoug posted a good write up of his "rifling" knurling tool that did just that and he claimed quite good accuracy.

If this isn't what you meant, pardon my rambling. I'll shut up now.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Something else I just remembered ~ make sure there is some wad pressure when you crimp. It doesn't have to be a lot but the payload should be held firmly against the powder.

This is my only remaining uncertainty, which willbe answered when i sit down to load them: with the interior "ridge" of the HS hulls, the wad stops at that ridge. SO I will need tomake sure the powder comes up at least to the ridge and maybe a little past it in order to compress it, since no wad will be forced down past that ridge.

I will let everyone know.

C-

[cpileri]

Did a little check: it takes about 25gr of green Dot to fill to the top of the ridge in the HS shells. Too much! BUT... I found a wad that will also fit down into the narrowed portion (below the ridge), so if the .678 balls fit on the shotcup, I can use them.
Otherwise I am back to finding a bulkier-than-Green-Dot powder that will get me safely to the 1000fps range.
C-

[cpileri]

Test loads for shotgun slugs: Winchester HS hulls, Green Dot powder (*), CB1118-12 wads, .125" hard card in shotcup, .678" lead round ball loaded sprue up, fold crimp. Fit is adequate, might need another hard card. Will test soon! C-


(*) loaded 2 each of 17.5 and 18.5gr powder. Both very light loads.
C-
65925

[dverna]

cp

You may have trouble chambering those as the crimps are poor. You need to build up the height to achieve a more normal star crimp. You can go with a 1 oz or 7/8 oz wad to use another way (cards/felt/filler) to accomplish that.

Even practice loads should look and function well.

[cpileri]

They chamber ok, but youre right: the crimps are lousy. I use a manual Lee loader by hand. Any tips on getting good crimps w such low-tech equipment? Sometging that looks like this (not mine, but a factory Federal Tactical buckshot): beautiful, crisp, slightly tapered... I can only dream. 65980