Pistol Primer Sizes (Warning #2)

[sirgknight]

The 45 acp primer size warning is a good read for new reloaders. Another concern is the 9mm. We are all quite familiar with crimped primers on military casings, but some of the new reloaders may not know that 9MM casings can be included in that category also. It just so happens that I reloaded 10 boxes of 9MM today. Of the 500 pieces of brass I ran across ONE casing with a crimped primer pocket. Experienced reloaders will most likely recognize this during the priming stage, even when unexpected, but it may become a surprise to an inexperienced reloader. To be honest, after loading literally thousands of rounds of 9mm ammo, this was the first crimped 9mm that I have come across. Just goes to show that we never really know what experience is in store for us....and no, I didn't even damage the primer....pretty fortunate indeed!!!

[dmclark523]

Funny you mention this. I actually had this happen to me last week while hand loading with a Lee primer. Sometimes my Tula primers go in rough, and I pressed probably a little harder than I should have. I shoved half the primer into the casing and the other half was bent over. I'm lucky it didn't blow up in my face. After very carefully removing the primer, I noticed the crimped pocket. Very good information to share!

Edit: This happened with 9mm, by the way.

[ReloaderFred]

I've been reloading 9mm (9x19) military brass for many, many years, and it all has crimped primers. I prefer it, since it's heavy, tough brass. If you've never run across it before, it just means you haven't been reloading military brass.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[220swiftfn]

As a side note, Winchester white box can have some mil overrun brass in it, so reloader beware........


I just do a quick headstamp sort and put the NATO aside until there's enough to make it worth my while to set up to fix them....



Dan

[garym1a2]

I see crimp in primers a bit in 9mm and am starting to see it show up in 40's. Between that and the small primer 45's it slows down the process quite a bit.

[oldtoolsniper]

I do the military crimped stuff too. I get a lot of brass from a law enforcement range and they are now getting the crimped stuff. best to check it all.

Whatever you do invest in safety glasses and wear them. The anvil in that primer becomes a projectile when it's not contained in the primer pocket of a casing. I have a pair on every press. $4.00 is pretty cheap to keep an eyeball.

[mdi]

Personally, my simple solution is to inspect each case for defects and crimps. I understand a lot of reloaders don't want to go through this task (they just wanna dump a bunch in the tumbler and dump that bunch in the case feeder and do as little as possible), but case inspection is part of my reloading. I also recommend to all new reloaders to look at their brass. Simple visual inspection now keeps problems from coming up later...

Basic reloading 101.

[bear67]

I get a lot of LE .40 S&W brass and have yet to see a crimped primer, but all of the .223/5.56 LE range brass I get is crimped, just various headstamps. As long as I know to look for them I can swage out the primer pocket to commercial specifications. 30-45 years ago, I can not gestimate how many military 30-09 cases I reworked and loaded. I shoot Mil Spec M-2 in my Garands and that brass gets handled separately. I have about 500 mil-spec .45 ACP that is stamped .44 on the headstamp and it has held up for lots of reuse.

[ACrowe25]

I inspect each and every case multiple times prior to reloading, also being that 9mm is everywhere, I don't reload the mil-stuff. Going over things multiple times kept my mind at ease when starting, and now is just a habit. Now I have my system down it doesn't change.

[Megiddo]

I'm new at this too and I hate the reaming/cleaning of the primer holes.

I removed my Lyman plastic reamer's handle and used my grinding wheel to "touch" the end so that it resembles the cleaning tool's end.

Now I can chuck it in my electric drill and ream/clean in one step. Now why can't I find that all-in-one tool? No need now.

[Case Stuffer]

Military ammo has crimped primers to insure reliability in auto weapons which include 7.62,5.56,.45ACP,9MM and I have even had .38Special Mil brass with crimper primers.

30 to 40 years ago I only purchased once fired Mil brass as it was always of better quality. To me no big deal tumble ,size / deprime , swage or chamber primper pockets, tumble again and then start the case stuffing. Tumbling is a bit time consuming but it takes little hands on time. I use progressive reloaders with auto case feeders so I just backup the inside case expander / flaring and taper crimp dies leave primer feed empty and each stroke of the presses' handle gets me true the first stage.

There are also now .45ACP with SP primer pockets. I have not purchased any .45 brass in around 30 years so have not since any first hand yet but have read many post about them. Perhaps I will purchase a thousand when this cacos blows ove so that I will not have to change primer size on my progressive reloader that I use for 9MM and .45 ACP. Currently I have plenty of 45ACP loaded and if I want a small batch of another load I use my Lee hand primer.





I hate the reaming/cleaning of the primer holes.


Removing the primer crimp is necessary however cleaning primer pockets is really a waste of time unless you are striving gor extreme accuary in a vey good rifle. If that is the case then all brass needs to be trimed to same length sorted bu HS and weight,neck depured/chamfered, each round checked for bullet alignment and several other steps. I have not done any bench rest competation sootong since 1966 so do not bother with such.

[454PB]

This is where the Lee decapper with the collet style decapping pin shines. Whenever a crimped primer is encountered, you'll know right away.

[Case Stuffer]

I hve read that about the Lee and if adjusted just right it does work. Issue Ihave with them is if a little to loose they back up even on some normal primers and if they are a bit to tight they brake or atlease my first one di andon the first crimper primer.I ordered three spares so lokely will not break another one.

I have used RCBS carbide sizer and deprimers for many years and tens ofthousands of millitary brass and never broke the primer pin. About a month I did mange to break one in a RCBS but as the primer pin is only a short length of 1/16" wire it took me only a few minutes to make replacement. Berdine pocket got the RCBS primer punch pin and in fact it bent 90degrees and folded over on itself befor snapping.

[Bullet Caster]

I usually use my Lee Universal decapper die and broke the pin on my first try at de-capping some Milsurp (a few berdan ones in the bunch). Got my replacement pin and installed it and found out the die from the factory was tightened way too much and that's why it broke. After installing new one I didn't tighten it down so much and haven't broken it since. Be sure to check the tightness of the die from the factory before using.

Purchased some WCC 9mm (1018) for $25.00 and found some of the primers were crimped. I just use my drill bit and stick in the primer hole on every case I process. Have added this step into my reloading proceedures. I inspect all (each and every case) for splits and primer pockets before reloading. BC

[xacex]

I run across a few crimped 9mm from range pick ups. I prime with a hand held primer, and you can feel if you have a crimped pocket. I keep a hand held lyman pocket reamer next to me and just ream them out when I find them. This gives me a chance to look at each case as it is primed for further inspection as well.

[km101]

I get a lot of LE .40 S&W brass and have yet to see a crimped primer, but all of the .223/5.56 LE range brass I get is crimped, just various headstamps. As long as I know to look for them I can swage out the primer pocket to commercial specifications. 30-45 years ago, I can not gestimate how many military 30-09 cases I reworked and loaded. I shoot Mil Spec M-2 in my Garands and that brass gets handled separately. I have about 500 mil-spec .45 ACP that is stamped .44 on the headstamp and it has held up for lots of reuse.


Quite a few LE Depts. are starting to use the Federan NT (non toxic) in .40 S&W, for qualification. Especially in indoor ranges. This brass has a crimped primer. The story is that the non-toxic primer is not as hot as standard, so Federal made the flash hole bigger to get a better burn. Then they found that primers were backing out, so they had to crimp the primers. It's good brass, but you must swage the primer pocket.

[DLCTEX]

I bought some 38 Spc. brass a few years ago and was surprised to find a good number of them were crimped primed.

[jmorris]

I think the swage station on the 1050 is my favorite one. Before it I was always cautious of messing up primers going into S&B cases so I would always stop and check if something didn't feel right.

[lmfd20]

I try to pick them out after I clean them and throw them in a bucket. By the time I save the money for some BTSNIPER 30 cal dies and 4 reducing dies, I will have a bucket full.

[khmer6]

I've smashed hundreds of primers on accident because of misalignment or crimped pockets on various calibers. I've only ever once had a primer ignite on me, the primer went in fully seated ad it should and just popped.

[R.Ph. 380]

Quite a few LE Depts. are starting to use the Federan NT (non toxic) in .40 S&W, for qualification. Especially in indoor ranges. This brass has a crimped primer. The story is that the non-toxic primer is not as hot as standard, so Federal made the flash hole bigger to get a better burn. Then they found that primers were backing out, so they had to crimp the primers. It's good brass, but you must swage the primer pocket.

That's one of my favorite phrases, a non-toxic primer in a cartridge meant to kill. Gotta' watch out for the environment while offing the bad guy. OXYMORONIC!!! hehehe

[ACrowe25]

That's one of my favorite phrases, a non-toxic primer in a cartridge meant to kill. Gotta' watch out for the environment while offing the bad guy. OXYMORONIC!!! hehehe

:lol: good one. Had a nice laugh.

[gcollins]

Howdy All,:D
As I have mention before, I have shot and loaded a lot! Before the Bradey Bill Pasted, I was buying mixed 9mm for $15.00 per 1000 and like everything else that had anything to do with guns, went off the chart, mixed 9mm military and commerial brass jumped to $65.00 pr 1000, and you all know me to well, I have not bought any 9mm brass since the Bradey Bill Pasted!!Mixed brass can be a real pain if you use progessive loaders. I was luckly to see the writing on the wall and I bought 20,000 9mm mixed brass for $12.50 per K.
Back then I was in fairly good shape, and worked a 40hrs week job plus a 16-24 hr per week second job! And at that time my reloading room was in my basement, so on the nights that I wasn't working, I would go down in the basemet grab a bag of 1000 9mm and 3 empty 3lb coffee cans and I would watch tv and sort brass, No Big Deal !
Later
G

[Case Stuffer]

Recntly I purchased close to 4K of assorted range pickup 9 cases from a couple of member here. My routine is do a quick check for non boxer primer pockets, throw all in the tumbler a couple hundred at a time, clean / polish ,start another batch and size / deprime the polished ones. Sometimes I find a berdin primed one I mised or a .380, a nusiance to 9 reloders.
Alfter all have been processed to this point I inspect for crimped pockets, remove as needed ,check for ones that appear to have been reloaded numerious times and throw them in my OK to lose box if they still look decent. Some of the ones fired in full autos ,firearms with large chambers un supported chambers etc. will have a resizing ring due to a bulge and these get scraped or go into the OK to lose bin depending on how bad they are.

I normaly weight until I am ready to load a batch and tumble again rigth before reloading them ,this leaves a small amount of Nu Finish on them and makes it a bit easier on me as not as much effort is needed on the press handle.

What I love about all of the steps required to procees a new batch of nine cases is that it only needs to be done once. If one is lucky the cases will last long enough to get lost before they develop other problems but I still give all finished rounds a good visiual inspection. Just a few days ago I found two rounds with very small splits in the walls starting at the mouths. These were cases which came out of range pickup whic were really black and I knew at the time I received them that smart thing to do was scrap them but I did the Lemmon Shine deal and they looked fine. Glad I kept all of these washed ones seperated and loaded on the mild side.

I have never had a case let go in a magzine feed firearm but I have seen photos and that is as close as I ever wish to come to such an event.

[James6406]

Was wondering if someone could post a picture of a crimped primer. I have not yet seen one.

[Bullwolf]

You can see the crimp around the primer pocket in this military brass.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f1TTfqxVUw4/TQ4qmvNaCuI/AAAAAAAAB-Q/zPhiI5_RCPo/s400/DSCN7953.JPG

Same piece of crimped primer pocket brass, de-primed.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f1TTfqxVUw4/TQ4qpi1dSdI/AAAAAAAAB-U/RcN_fkoT2Jk/s400/DSCN7954.JPG


Can also find staked in primers. They look a lot like this.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4719186452547493&pid=15.1&H=145&W=160http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5010144697451311&pid=15.1&H=157&W=160http://squibloads.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/crimpedprimercloseupstakes.jpg?w=510

Both are easy enough to remove using a simple deburring tool.
http://squibloads.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/chuckeddeburringtool1.jpg?w=300&h=225


- Bullwolf

[James6406]

I have seen brass with the red around the primer and did know what it was.

Thanks for the pics. My brother-in-law just gave me a bag of range pickup brass. From what I have read here it would be a good practice to inspect for these while sorting.

[mdi]

I have seen brass with the red around the primer and did know what it was.

Thanks for the pics. My brother-in-law just gave me a bag of range pickup brass. From what I have read here it would be a good practice to inspect for these while sorting.
Simplest solution to the "primer crimp problem"! All ya gotta do is look!

[Char-Gar]

The experiences reloader assumes that all ammo loaded for use, in military firearms has crimped primers. This is the assumption until you have checked and proved to yourself it is not so. You don't assume it isn't crimped, you assume it is.

Basic stuff here folks...

[James6406]

I'm glad I read this thread. After cleaning in vinegar/lemon juice solution I inspected and found 4 cases with crimped primers.

Basic stuff for those of you that are experienced. Learning for those of us who are not.

[Char-Gar]

James...It doesn't take experience, it just takes reading a general reloading textbook/manual. This was the first step for a new reloader before the internet came along. Post-internet folks seem to have forgotton how to learn for themselves.

"Some folks learn by reading, some by listening, some by watching and all the rest have to pee on the electric fence."....Will Rogers

[Bwana]

James...It doesn't take experience, it just takes reading a general reloading textbook/manual. This was the first step for a new reloader before the internet came along. Post-internet folks seem to have forgotton how to learn for themselves.

"Some folks learn by reading, some by listening, some by watching and all the rest have to pee on the electric fence."....Will Rogers

You would think that should go without saying, but it doesn't

[Char-Gar]

You would think that should go without saying, but it doesn't

The Internet is a real double edged sword. It provides unbelievable information in our homes at our fingertips, if we are willing to do basic research and learning.

The dull edge of the sword, is folks have become dependent on others, through the internet, to teach them bits and pieces, with the result that few every come to a full understanding. They know just enough to get them by for the time being and often just enough to get into trouble.

Folks don't seem to fully appreciate the dangerous nature of handloading and are very causal about how they learn and who they learn from. If they did this with sky diving, they were be lots bodies splattered around the landscape. With handloading we just have an increase in destroyed firearms, mangled hands and an occasional lost eye.

If any of you new folks read this and feel insulted and hot under the collar, just blow me off, as some folks think I am a jerk. You can join that group and I won't feel bad about it. Don't waste your time telling me I am a jerk, I am just not worth it.

[James6406]

I am confused as to the point of the last two postings. I have 2 manuals that I have read cover to cover. The first is hornady handbook 3rd edition I bought years ago and lee's modern reloading which was recently purchased. Neither of these cover crimped military primers. If it not appropriate for the inexperienced to ask questions on this site please let me know.

[Char-Gar]

Sure it is OK to ask question, but you will likely encounter an old curmudgeon like me from time to time. That is just the way of it.

If you didn't get the point of the last two posts, you would not get the explanation either, so don't worry about it.

[9.3X62AL]

Char-gar's admonitions come from a good place, folks. I would submit that ANY reloading manual that purports to be "comprehensive", but does not include info about crimped primers & pockets is doing a disservice to their customer base, and is at minimum incomplete.

FWIW, I started reloading in 1971--and strive to learn something new every time I check in here or sit down at the bench. And YES, I often do.

[Bwana]

A cursory look at my Speer #12 book reveals that crimped primers, and the problems they present and the solution for them, are mentioned on pages 76 and 100. It took me less than a minute to find those two examples.

[MrWolf]

I have learned to give a quick visual when depriming (use a Harvey Deprimer which works great) then a more comprehensive one when I head-stamp sort after the sonic cleaning/food dehydrator drying. Anything different/off goes into a separate pile which might just become swaging material :D

[Bullwolf]

I have seen brass with the red around the primer and did know what it was.

Just to clarify, most of the time when you see red around the primer (or purple or other color) it's a primer pocket sealant, like red lacquer that you are looking at.

Primer pocket sealants are often used on military, and commercial self defense ammunition in an attempt to water proof the ammunition.

The crimped primer pocket thing is a mechanical squeeze, swage, or stake to squish in the primers making them less prone to falling out. It does not leave a colored coating, unless someone paints the primer pocket afterwards.

You may also encounter military rounds from time to time that have an asphalt like sealant in the neck. Those can be a real pain to pull.


- Bullwolf

[Char-Gar]

Should you encounter a round with asphalt sealant in the neck, seat the bullet a tad deeper to break the seal and it will pull easy.