lets not fib about group size averages

[HARRYMPOPE]

Now when a person asks and honest question about "how well does so and so shoot" Lets give a fair average and maybe "best one ever".I have shot many small groups and many big ones as well.I have competed in and been the official scorer at a few big registered cast bullet matches as well.I am not the best shot by far(and seldom win BTW) but i have seen lot of groups in the heat of battle by some VERY good shots to get a good feel for what cast bullets can do in rifles.I know some can average 1" groups with their 1903 with match sights @ 100 and with muzzle-loaders also shoot 1" at 100 and all that. About 99% on this forum or better are honest but a few just plain stretch the truth a bit.

sir-"rantalot"

[fishhawk]

Well they are probably fisherman also and you know how accurate they are in judging the size of fish!

[Love Life]

I've yet to see an internet rifle or shooter that shoots over sub 1/4 MOA...at 1,000,000,000 yards.

[swheeler]

This brings a smile to my face, just reading it I immediately think of old Joe and all those one hole/ bug hole groups shot with milsurps:) at velocity no less. If BS was a snowflake he'd be a howling a** blizzard!

[runfiverun]

you have to take the rifle into consideration.
a target/varmint rifle is expected to shoot groups in the 1/2" area no matter what the projectile is made from.
a 44 or 45 with all 5 touching is close to a 2" group.
my ruger 77-II,norinco M-14, and my AR-30 are all 308's, but i expect vastly different groups from them, even though i can easily use the exact same rounds in them.

[DeanWinchester]

DON'T get on an Internet chat forum and tell lies and exaggerations? What else are we supposed to do?


J/k seriously, I agree.

[TXGunNut]

I have a rifle that used to shoot honest MOA groups before some rifling let go. Still have a Contender that will. Presently have a new Super Grade M70 that is probably capable of it but I've lost interest in pursuing that goal. Problem is, most good rifles can put 3 rounds into less than 1" now and then but that doesn't make it an MOA rifle. My standard is 5 rds, realistically it should be 10.
Still pretty tickled about the 2" 50yd group from my peep-sighted 94 a week or so ago. I used to be able to do that with a 6" revolver on rare occasions. My CB goal for a scoped rifle @ 100 yds is 2" and I'll settle for a little bigger. And yes, I'll post an awful target now and then.
I too have a background in comp shooting, it's a humbling experience.
Feel free to call BS if I estimate distance, I really suck @ that. Guess that's why I carry a rangefinder if possible.

[RP]

I tried to get some really good groups but the muzzle blast tears the paper up real bad. And some can not help buy brag more then the facts allow.

[onceabull]

AND, none of these keyboard oneholers will be found on the line at any match where one of the Gallagher sistes, their mother or stepdad might be competing...

[Hyphenated]

I can always shoot a one hole group...if I stop after the first shot. It is always those next two that give me trouble. :-D:-D:-D

[Cactus Farmer]

I tried to get some really good groups but the muzzle blast tears the paper up real bad. And some can not help buy brag more then the facts allow.

I hear that covering the target with Saran wrap will cut way down on powder burns and muzzle blast damage. Just saying...........

[Thumbcocker]

I am thinking about taking a coffee shop stool to the range. Some of the finest feats of marksmanship, stalking, hunting, and wooing of fair maidens ever achieved have been done from coffee shop stools.

[Larry Gibson]

you have to take the rifle into consideration.
a target/varmint rifle is expected to shoot groups in the 1/2" area no matter what the projectile is made from.
a 44 or 45 with all 5 touching is close to a 2" group.
my ruger 77-II,norinco M-14, and my AR-30 are all 308's, but i expect vastly different groups from them, even though i can easily use the exact same rounds in them.

We also have to consider the sample size of the group with rifles and the range at which tested. I think one has already mentioned he always shoots one hole groups if he quits at 1 shot......I do that too!

Some like 3 shots and some prefer 5 shot groups but it is proven a minimum of 7 shots is needed to get a correct idea. Some of us prefer 10 shot groups as they put you into the 90% statistical realm of the accuracy potential. Testing at less than 100 yards also is not a good indication of accuracy potential unless all shooting is expected at 50 yards or less. 100 yards is generally considered the minimal range that will begin to really show accuracy potential. Again we're talking rifles here.

I read recently that accuracy testing is like a 3 legged stool; if one leg is out of wack then the stool isn't going to sit right. Thus we have the load and the rifle discussed as 2 of the legs. The 3rd leg is the shooter; if the shooter can't shoot accurately (in this case from the bench) then the groups he gets aren't the potential accuracy of the rifle and load.

I do agree with Harry's rant.........

Larry Gibson

[shredder]

I can always shoot a one hole group...if I stop after the first shot. It is always those next two that give me trouble. :-D:-D:-D

Hee Hee! Mee too! Seriously though, I am finally getting what I consider to be very small groups indeed after much work with 3 different powders so far in my 30-06. This morning I shot a 10 shot group that measured 1 and 1/4 inches with one flyer that opened it up to 1-3/4. Dang, I called it too! but anyway, this is only after exhaustive trial and error with the various powders and lubes etc etc etc. That boolit has been shooting 2-3 inches with almost all other loads until I hit the sweet spot with 25.5 grains of 4198.
Cast boolits are becoming a real passion of mine so I can say to get consistent groups like that has taken me a lot of work. I lurk here a lot and read. My casting technique has improved by leaps and bounds thanks to hints and tips from those here. I have 4 different lubes in my arsenal all made by me (except the bottle of Lee Alox) from recipies gathered here. I lube my moulds with bullplate now. Need I say more. Great fun this boolit casting business.

[tmax64]

I've shot a 5 shot group with a bull barrel 22-250 that was in the 0.3-0.4" range once in my life. 0.6-0.8" is what I look for when working up a load. I usually get close to that. I don't know if me or my guns are the limiting factor. I do use an off brand lead sled when doing bench work most times. I know it's not field shooting but if I know I can get 0.75" benching then I know it's not the load or the gun and I've only had 2-3 shots at game in my life where I couldn't get an improvised rest of some kind.

[Silver Eagle]

And don't forget the long lasting argument about group measuring methods. Center to center, outside edge to outside edge, etc.
3 shot groups are at most a good guess to me. 5 shots for advanced testing and 10 shots to fully proof out a load or gun.
Honesty with yourself as to the "fliers" is also important.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

That was too funny RP! I might have to get a target with some powder burns to post.

[cbrick]

I never lie about my groups and all of my 5 shot groups can be covered with 5 cents. A penny on this shot, a penny on that shot . . . :mrgreen:

Rick

[LAH]

I like to do 3 shot groups, about 5 of them. If testing a competition firearm sometimes it's good to go with the discipline. IBS requires 5 shots on the 1000 yard target so 5 shot groups is a reasonable test bed.

For handguns I do 5 shot groups instead of 6 because of the OCD thing of 5 cartridges in row across the box.

[Blammer]

Here is aveage for one of my rifles and this particular load. :) Not all of my other groups are so small.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/311284.jpg

[Bullshop]

The holes arent round I think there tipping.

[oldred]

Hey I read something on the internet once that was true or at least I think it was,,,,,um well maybe it was,,,,,I better check on that.

[DCM]

AND, none of these keyboard oneholers will be found on the line at any match where one of the Gallagher sistes, their mother or stepdad might be competing...

Actually SOME will.
But most won't.
Really hard to see real results over the net though.

[DCM]

I can always shoot a one hole group...if I stop after the first shot. It is always those next two that give me trouble. :-D:-D:-D

That works too!

[Dannix]

Here is aveage for one of my rifles and this particular load. :) Not all of my other groups are so small.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/311284.jpg
Not bad for 15 yards. ;)

[Recluse]

This brings a smile to my face, just reading it I immediately think of old Joe and all those one hole/ bug hole groups shot with milsurps:) at velocity no less. If BS was a snowflake he'd be a howling a** blizzard!

I yelled so loud and laughed so hard at this that my wife was getting worried about me pulling some stitches loose! It would almost have been worth a trip back to the hospital if I had. Note that I emphasized "almost" and that is probably only because the hospital food was so bad as to keep me from doing anything in my absolute power from returning.

Groups. . .

I prefer four to five shot groups for my rifles, and even that can get tough because my right shoulder is so battered and in need of replacement that ten-shot groups out of a thumper like 30-06 become so agonizing that all the fun and joy from shooting goes right out the window.

I have my standards for accuracy for my loads to suit my needs. In all honesty, I really don't care about anything else. I do not compete against other shooters anymore. I compete against myself.

I lose a lot, too.

:coffee:

[SlippShodd]

AND, none of these keyboard oneholers will be found on the line at any match where one of the Gallagher sistes, their mother or stepdad might be competing...

Hey, look, Bill! You got a Boolit! Happy thousandth post!
Maybe you can shoot a one-holer with it. Just make sure I ain't sittin' in it.

mike

[waksupi]

I'm with Larry, it takes a 10 shot group to show the true potential of the load, the rifle, and the shooter.

If any of you would like to have tighter groups, I sell keyboards that are guaranteed to not type about any group over one inch.
I do have some special order keyboards that will only shoot under 1/2", but of course they do cost more.

Group buy, anyone?

[swheeler]

I'm with Larry, it takes a 10 shot group to show the true potential of the load, the rifle, and the shooter.

If any of you would like to have tighter groups, I sell keyboards that are guaranteed to not type about any group over one inch.
I do have some special order keyboards that will only shoot under 1/2", but of course they do cost more.

Group buy, anyone?

Do you remember how much the shipping was to Tennessee?

[x101airborne]

I am glad someone put this up. Thank you, OP!
What does constitute a measurable average?
I was told measure center to center for each shot of the string, then deduct the diameter of the boolit to come up with the average center to center measurement. Was I taught wrong? Are there others thinking like me?

I have heard of these magical groups also. And, like most I roll my eyes and pass them off. But what if some of it is just a difference of measurement? I ask, are we all on the same page when talking group size?
If you shoot 10 shots from a 30 cal rifle at 100 yards and you have vertical stringing over a two inch grid, does that mean you shot a two inch group or does it mean you shot a 1 inch group after measuring?

[ole 5 hole group]

My advice would be just speed read some posts and move on to the informative posts. For those who have shot competitively in any discipline knows the price one pays in equipment, time & dedication to just not to embarrass yourself and for those few who have actually placed in National competitions and won State Championships, they know just what it took for them to achieve their goals and it wasn't done overnight and without a lot of dedicated trigger time, which normally meant other interests or desires took a back seat or were never realized.

Now, there's a few out there that have also put in their time and can shoot their firearm of choice very well and had no desire to compete for reasons known only to them and they will hold their own against some of the better competitive shooters but not anywhere close to the top shooters - just my observation anyway.

My goal when I shot competitive benchrest, hunter rifle, NRA 2700 etc was to be a State and National Champion and break a world record in the process. Well, I won a State Championship and earned a National Top 20 Patch but that was the best I could do, so I fell short like 99.5% of the other shooter's did but I enjoyed every minute - win or lose. My best groups in benchrest competition were like 0.102", 0.106" etc but the screamer patch was awarded only to those who fired a 0.099" or better at 100 yards. I lost money each time I shot a bug hole because I paid for a re-measurement and each time they gave me a choice - to accept my original measurement or take the larger re-measurement. So I know very well the saying "close doesn't count except when using heavy artillery.)

To me, a person who lies about his shooting ability is akin to a person who lies about his military service - both unacceptable in my world.

[waksupi]

The old timers will remember the winter matches I ran here. I did all of the target measurement, so that aspect was very standardized. The purpose of the matches were to combat cabin fever, to see what loads others were shooting, and how well they could shoot them. The numbers told the story of the average Joe, shooting average equipment for the most part.
There are more results in the competitions area of the board.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?416-The-Great-Aloha-Shooting-Match
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?4883-2006-Offhand-Military-results
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?4882-2006-Military-50-yd-Bench-results
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?5398-Lever-action-50-yard-offhand-results
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?6099-Internet-Match-Results

[Blacksmith]

As I get older and my eyes get weaker my groups get bigger. However I can still manage a tight one if I have my special .30 caliber scoring pencil with me.:bigsmyl2:

[fouronesix]

you have to take the rifle into consideration.
a target/varmint rifle is expected to shoot groups in the 1/2" area no matter what the projectile is made from.
a 44 or 45 with all 5 touching is close to a 2" group.
my ruger 77-II,norinco M-14, and my AR-30 are all 308's, but i expect vastly different groups from them, even though i can easily use the exact same rounds in them.

Nope. That's not the way groups are measured. The larger calibers may have the advantage only when bullseye shooting and/or using scoring rings on the target. When shooting "group size" the caliber doesn't matter because the scoring is calculated center to center of widest holes.

[41 mag fan]

I don't understand why all of a sudden all these lies are being posted!
I can't believe everyone would jump on the bandwagon of the "I'm not as good a shot as I really am" thingy.
I'll be straight up honest, I don't like to lie. Around here they call me dead eye dick.

My 300 Win mag is extremely accurate. Dead eye accurate to be exact.
If you look at the man in the moon, you'll notice he's kinda squinting in his left eye.
I got this telescope thats so powerfull (bought at Toys R US) that i can see the water waves on the moon.
Well one evening, while the moon was up, me and the boy got out the 300, and telescope.
I had him give me the calculation of the curvature of the earth, cosmic winds, weightless bullets, and gravitational pull.
Did the calculations, aimed, and hit that bugger right where i wanted....in his left eye!!!

I'd do it again just to prove to any of you that are skeptical, but i don't want to blind the ole man in the moon, by shooting him in the right eye.
I will divulge my load though. I started out with a smidge of BE, then AA9, RL 22 and a topper of IMR 4064. All this behind a Moly Coated 180gr Sierra. The Moly coating helps with friction when exiting earths atmosphere.
I did modify the cased though to accept a 50BMG primer. That way the powder is all burnt up before the bullet exits the barrel, and the primer is still burning off....I like the flash at the end of the muzzle!!

I wish now i would of video taped it. How the ole man was wide eyed then you seen the squint as the bullet hit him.

So if any of you marksmans ever hear the phrase "shootin the moon" just think of "dead eye dick" 41 mag fan!!!

[Boerrancher]

I use to shoot some really good groups when I was younger, though I never got serious about shooting good groups with cast until a few years back. Minute of coyote was always good for me as a kid and young adult. I have a couple rifles that shoot really well with cast boolits, and come close to that MOA mark when I do my part. The problem is, I have noticed in the last few years it keeps getting harder to do my part. I also think that one needs to consider the amount of time taken to shoot a group. I just recently started shooting Dad's 7mm RUM, and it will only shoot 3 shot groups before you may as well be throwing rocks as the barrel gets hot, but If I was to shoot a 10 shot group with it over a period of 6 hours, I would have a damn nice group as long as I didn't mess up. There are too many variables and individual opinions to discuss groups and everyone be on the the same page, just my 2 cents.

Best wishes,

Joe

[shredder]

I don't understand why all of a sudden all these lies are being posted!
I can't believe everyone would jump on the bandwagon of the "I'm not as good a shot as I really am" thingy.
I'll be straight up honest, I don't like to lie. Around here they call me dead eye dick.

My 300 Win mag is extremely accurate. Dead eye accurate to be exact.
If you look at the man in the moon, you'll notice he's kinda squinting in his left eye.
I got this telescope thats so powerfull (bought at Toys R US) that i can see the water waves on the moon.
Well one evening, while the moon was up, me and the boy got out the 300, and telescope.
I had him give me the calculation of the curvature of the earth, cosmic winds, weightless bullets, and gravitational pull.
Did the calculations, aimed, and hit that bugger right where i wanted....in his left eye!!!

I'd do it again just to prove to any of you that are skeptical, but i don't want to blind the ole man in the moon, by shooting him in the right eye.
I will divulge my load though. I started out with a smidge of BE, then AA9, RL 22 and a topper of IMR 4064. All this behind a Moly Coated 180gr Sierra. The Moly coating helps with friction when exiting earths atmosphere.
I did modify the cased though to accept a 50BMG primer. That way the powder is all burnt up before the bullet exits the barrel, and the primer is still burning off....I like the flash at the end of the muzzle!!

I wish now i would of video taped it. How the ole man was wide eyed then you seen the squint as the bullet hit him.

So if any of you marksmans ever hear the phrase "shootin the moon" just think of "dead eye dick" 41 mag fan!!!

Holy hell! I think I met this guy in the gun shop last week! For sure I have read his other posts! Now back to my 1 hole groups. Hey if I shoot twice I'll spoil it!

[onceabull]

I'm thinking this 41 Mag guy bought his keyboard from some little drinking village in Montana....Onceabull

[1Shirt]

Good thread, with pleanty of humor! I save my exceptional groups for book record, and pitch the not so great groups (which are the majority). The exceptional groups are what the rifle MAY be capable of on a good day, and when luck is with the shooter, and there is no wind, and there is no one else at the range, and, and, and! If we could all shoot .5" ten shot groups, we would probably get tired of the shooting game, and take up fishing or something. When I get good results approaching MOA with 5 shot groups, I then go to 10 shot groups. Ten shot groups tend to make ya humble.
1Shirt!

[Bullshop]

Nope he didnt get it here.

[popper]

I only compete with myself (I often lose also) and my son in law occasionally, for grins. I am interested in my groups (and others) only to determine if I am casting, loading and shooting as best I am able with the equipment I have and components I'm using. My only interest in posting 'scores' is to aid others to accomplish the same. Oh, I will post post contradictory evidence when someone says 'that doesn't work'. Yes vertical stringing is difficult to quantify a group measurement due to charge tolerance, breath control, recoil, etc. For rifle I use width of a group. For pistol I use the shotgun pattern method. This approach gives me consistency in judgement. When fishing I judge the size by how hard it is to get them to shore.

[runfiverun]

416 that just points out the difference in how groups are measured.
i put a ruler on the paper and measure the distance across the outside of the holes.
i don't care if they are 1.91 inches.
2" is the measurement.
big is big, and small is small, i measure to the 1/8" on the little side and 1/4" on the big side, it's close enough for me.

[41 mag fan]

I'm thinking this 41 Mag guy bought his keyboard from some little drinking village in Montana....Onceabull

Close but not quite accurate Onceabull.
This is a laptop, so the keyboard was included.
But i'll tell you this much....I won this dang thnig from that quaint little village with a drinking problem!!!

Here's how i did it too.... we was all sitting around the local waterin hole and there was this laptop that was up for grabs. If you could hit the Makers Mark bottle atop the tallest pine on top of the mountain,while sitting in a chair at the waterin hole, win the lap top.
Well i chimed in that i wanted a try, this feller was in there also....he's a member here so I wont divulge his name, went and put the bottle on top of the pine.
In the mean time some other feller wanted to give it a try also, so the challenge was on. The first shot we both hit that bottle dead on.
So to make it a little more difficult, we had that fella member on here, go to the next mountain range and put the bottle on the tallest pine.
Same thing....both of us hit that dang bottle. By now though, I was getting a little tipsy and bold. 2 bottles of Makers Mark drank.
So me being the loco dead eye dick around here, drank another bottle, told that fella member on here, go to the 3rd mountain range and find the tallest pine, set the bottle in a branch that would hold the bottom straight up in the air.
I told the other fella shooting, hit that bottle and i'll let you win. If you miss, I'll try, if i miss I'll buy the laptop for ya.
So the competin feller agreed, he will though i say gave me a run fer my money. He gave it his best but just didn't hit that bottle.

So me being the gent that I am, made it a bit more competin on myself.
Luckily i had my boy and my Toys R US handi dandi telescope with us. Plus I had my 22 rifle I won in a ham shoot. All silver lined, with gold inlay, I won that and was really hammin it up fer a bit.
Luckily we had one of them C130 cargo planes flyin over when my turn came up. Had my boy with that telescope give me trajectory, plus atmospheric relativity, with gravitational pull, and any earth curvature. got my info and told the competin feller, I'm gonna hit that prop of the C130, TWICE...it'll bounce from one prop to the other, fling that 22 bullet into space, hit that satellite getting ready to fly over, richochet and hit that bottle square on the bottom and leave a nice little hole.
Well long story short...here i am on that laptop.
Only thing i didn't take into consideration, is how fragile them satellites are. You remember a couple of years ago that chinese or korean or russian satellite that crashed back to earth???
Well the gov't had my back, and put me into witness protection program. The other gov't being who they are didn't want the public to know how it came back to earth, so it's been a big conspiracy ever since.
Needless, I only have 495 yrs of taxes collected to pay back that gov't for it's satellite!!

[onceabull]

Well by now I'd expect that most readers will realize that you are also a dedly opponent at the snooker table( Provided there's enough Makers Mark in the house.) . Onceabull

[reloaderman]

I've got a 30-40 Krag, that consistently shoots 200 yard groups you can cover with a quarter ! Well I didn't have a quarter, but I used 5 nickels.

[Ed Barrett]

I wish you guys could get together with a couple of shooters I know. They all own several rifles that shoot one hole groups at 100 to 300 hundred yards, most likely farther. I can only get by with shooting a good group every once in a while, but they have never shot a group that perfect or better. The only problem every time I suggest a trip to the range their truck is having problems or the weather it too hot/cold, the wife has plans, relatives are coming in from out of town, ect. But if I ever get to shoot with them maybe I can learn their secrets and I will be able to shoot this well.

[km101]

Several years back I shot some benchrest matches and tried to compete. I found out early on that I did not have the patience, bank account, or skill set to be a really good benchrest shooter. But I have a rifle made by Ed Shilen, back when Ed was still doing a lot of the work in his shop, that will shoot and honest 1/2 MOA. I still have the targets somewhere im my shop to prove it, but all I can do now is look at them and reminisce. :) Because I cant do it any more, even though the rifle is still capable.

I think a lot of the groups you hear about are like that. Groups that "I use'ta shoot". But group size is a factor of several things, and they all have to come together for optimum group size. As we get older, these factors get harder and harder to get together on the same day, so some "stretch the truth". But if you are giving out load data, you should deal in facts and hard numbers not memories or "Use to".

[uscra112]

Lemme explain how we tested dimensional measuring machines (CMMs) for the auto industry. They gave you ten parts. You rounded up three operators. You had each operator measure all ten parts, five times each. That gave you 150 data points for each characteristic of each feature you were measuring. (A simple hole can have half a dozen characteristics.) Then you did a bunch of statistical reduction on the data to see how much dispersion you were getting. If the dispersion was less than 10% of the tolerance, you were good. This was called a Gage Repeatability and Reproducibility Study, or GR&R. Google it.

So, to properly evaluate a rifle and load, we'd have three shooters shoot five ten-shot groups. Sound fair?

[Pat I.]

Now when a person asks and honest question about "how well does so and so shoot" Lets give a fair average and maybe "best one ever".I have shot many small groups and many big ones as well.I have competed in and been the official scorer at a few big registered cast bullet matches as well.I am not the best shot by far(and seldom win BTW) but i have seen lot of groups in the heat of battle by some VERY good shots to get a good feel for what cast bullets can do in rifles.I know some can average 1" groups with their 1903 with match sights @ 100 and with muzzle-loaders also shoot 1" at 100 and all that. About 99% on this forum or better are honest but a few just plain stretch the truth a bit.

sir-"rantalot"

George with cast bullets I've found that if you tell the truth people don't want to listen. Telling people you shoot an honest 1 1/2" with a production rifle or 2 1/2" with a milsurp isn't near as exciting as listening to the guys that can put a bottle rocket into a piece of conduit and shoot 1/2 inch 100 yd groups all day long in any weather. And let's not even get into shooting cast bullet bench rest rifles.

[BLTsandwedge]

I've yet to see an internet rifle or shooter that shoots over sub 1/4 MOA...at 1,000,000,000 yards.

Well that's OK because a thousand-million yards is 22.81 times the circumfrence of the Earth. The only firearm I know of that can reach escape velocity is my S&W 625 with a #452389 over 4.1 grains of Clays. And even with that load orbital decay generally puts that 185g button-nose WC into the Himalayas- close to Tibet.

[cbrick]

Well that's OK because a thousand-million yards is 22.81 times the circumfrence of the Earth.

Use caution with that load, I mean geez, you could shoot yourself in the back. :holysheep

Rick

[41 mag fan]

Well by now I'd expect that most readers will realize that you are also a dedly opponent at the snooker table( Provided there's enough Makers Mark in the house.) . Onceabull

Learned how to play that when I was 16. Actually learned it before learning how to play regulation pool. Local pool hall kept me in plenty of trouble and broke!!

[BLTsandwedge]

Use caution with that load, I mean geez, you could shoot yourself in the back. :holysheep

Rick

Actually, if all goes well, at least four or five times. But not to worry.....I have Mal Paso stand behind me.

[Mal Paso]

Actually, if all goes well, at least four or five times. But not to worry.....I have Mal Paso stand behind me.

HMMMM The Coriolis effect is in feet by that point. Hey guys if I'm facing North do I step to the Right or Left?

[runfiverun]

it first turns right but then has the whole length of the earth to turn back left again before going back to the right.
and depending on the month you have to figure in the trade winds, or the atlantic storms,plus the hot air rising or cold air sinking over the poles.
i think i'd take two steps left....