Still Getting Leading with 9mm

[metho]

So I've been casting for a few months now and after perfecting my 45 bullets I've since moved on to 9mm. I'm using a lee 128gr tumble lube 6 cavity truncated round nose mold. The boolits are dropping at a about 130-134gr and 3.56-3.59 in diameter. I'm sizing them with the lee 356 sizing die and lubing with alox. My 356 die was sizing the boolits to 354 and after more research found out that I needed to sand the die and open it up a bit more. I did that, I opened it up to .355 and still got leading. I opened it more to 355.5 and still got leading. Then opened it to 356 and still got leading. The leading wasn't as bad as before but it was still clearly there.

I've slugged my beretta 92 and found that the barrel is 355 so I didn't want to go any bigger than 356. The next thing I was going to try is polishing the barrel with jb bore bright because I was told that would help. If this doesn't fix the problem what should I try next? Could it be the load data? Or maybe the alloy? Or is there something more basic I'm missing here.

The alloy I'm using is 50/50 pure lead/ww. I'm loading with 4.2gr unique @ 1.095 oal.

[bowenrd]

All of my 9mm shoot cast sized to .357. FWIW

Try a different lube and next try a different powder.

[clintsfolly]

.3575 here and no leading Clint

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

.358 works in all of my 9mm and .380 ACP. All of my friends stuff too.

[metho]

.3575 here and no leading Clint

What size is your bore?

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2 % tin to the WWs, leave the Pb out. Lube with LLA as per the instructions and size in a .357 sizer.

Larry Gibson

[ku4hx]

... I didn't want to go any bigger than 356.

In trying to eliminate the cause of your leading, that may not be a realistic position.

[khmer6]

I have always read that the 92 and it's variants had really large bores. I've noticed this in mine. Same ammo would lead heavily in the 92 but a glock 17 hardly any. These were extremely hot loads...... Before I realized that cast and jacketed data weren't the same..... :rolleyes: I loaded them a long time ago

[Iron Mike Golf]

Get a bore light as put it in the muzzle. Check real careful just forward of the chamber. You might see where the reamer was off center or chattered. Check the place where the lands ramp up and look for roughness. Look for any ridges in the bottoms of the grooves. I have two model 96s (made a year apart) that show that. I'll put up a couple of photos of what I mean.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Here's a photo of what I am talking about.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/asset.php?fid=61923&uid=16973&d=1362937576

You can see the roughness on the lands at 4 and 6 o'clock. All the lands are like this. You can also see a step in the grooves at 2 and 3 o'clock. These are shaving lead.

[Case Stuffer]

Very common gfor lead to be sized 0.002 over sluged measurement and 0.003 is fine as long as it does not make the case to large to chamber. Make sure your expander is opening the case up enough to take the bullet without shaving it down in diamention.

Nine MM is a bit tricky round to load for many semis. It is a hogh pressure round and many like lowere weight boolits and the action takes a decent velocit to function. If one uses a lighter recoil spring the ammo can be loaded down to velocities which are less prong to leading.

Many years ago I had a Browning HP that leaded and I throated the barrel just infront of the chamber so I could seat .358 SWC out 0.060past the end of cases and it never leaded again. Bullets were seated out to the point they just kissed the rifleing.

[historicfirearms]

My 92 slugs at .3575, I can get a .359 sized boolit to chamber reliably, .360 is about 90%. Try reslugging your barrel and measure with a micrometer, not calipers.

[MtGun44]

"Don't want to go bigger than .356" Then you will have leading. .356 is
too small for most 9mms.

Why would you not want to go bigger????

If you actually want to solve this, size to .357 or .358.

Bill

[Recluse]

Add 2 % tin to the WWs, leave the Pb out. Lube with LLA as per the instructions and size in a .357 sizer.

Larry Gibson


"Don't want to go bigger than .356" Then you will have leading. .356 is
too small for most 9mms.

Why would you not want to go bigger????

If you actually want to solve this, size to .357 or .358.

Bill

Agree. Agree. Agree.

It took me several years to only finally develop a "winning" 9mm lead boolit and charge that gives me the results I seek.

I use WW alloy and add a bit of extra tin to pour a Lee 120TC boolit with traditional lube grooves, and water-drop. I've tried the TL boolits in 9mm and had zero luck. Zero. I size the boolit to .357 and run it through my lubesizer. The lube I use is a homemade recipe of mine, but any quality lube will work.

My best load that gives me one ragged hole at 20 yards shooting offhand is either 4.3 grains of W231 or 4.3 grains of AA#2. No leading whatsoever.

My OAL is 1.045" and it gives me no feeding issues whatsoever, and again, superb accuracy with no leading.

:coffee:

[metho]

"Don't want to go bigger than .356" Then you will have leading. .356 is
too small for most 9mms.

Why would you not want to go bigger????

If you actually want to solve this, size to .357 or .358.

Bill

What I meant to say is that I would t want to go bigger than 356 without knowing if it was safe to go that big.

But I did open my die up a little more, it's sizing at 357 now. Ill probably load some up this week and try them out and go even bigger if I still get leading.

[captaint]

I had to go to just a hair under .358 to get my 9mm to stop leading. That, and a good lube did the trick.
Mike And welcome to the craft..

[MtGun44]

Perfectly safe, usually required.

Bill

[NSP64]

metho, Measure a case mouth that was fired in the gun, This will tell you how big you can go. I size my taurus pt111 bullets .359 and they load and fire fine without leading.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

"What I meant to say is that I would t want to go bigger than 356 without knowing if it was safe to go that big."

Most likely, you can go as large as the firearm will still chamber a loaded round. And, don't overlook that a small expander may result in the sized brass to be actually reducing the size of your bullet, especially if it is somewhat soft. I have taken to using the Lyman M-die through expander for .38 spl for my 9 mm and .380 ACP.

If the bullet, as fired, is smaller than groove diameter, you're gonna get leading.

[DeanWinchester]

I measure case wall thickness on my brass and have found once fired Federal brass will accept an unsized boolit and, upon running it through my Lee FCD will size the boolit to .356. I get NO leading.

[khmer6]

A bit off topic but relevant to topic. How large can you go over the bore size before it becomes unsafe? If it chambers would it mean it's ok to shoot? Just back off the load for pressure increase?

[DeanWinchester]

A bit off topic but relevant to topic. How large can you go over the bore size before it becomes unsafe? If it chambers would it mean it's ok to shoot? Just back off the load for pressure increase?
It would be SO difficult to get a lead boolit too big you may as well say impossible.
Someone would almost have to backbore the throat to get one so big it would cause trouble.

[metho]

And, don't overlook that a small expander may result in the sized brass to be actually reducing the size of your bullet, especially if it is somewhat soft.


I actually took a loaded round apart and measured so I know this isn't the case.

[Raven_Darkcloud]

I size at .357 for mine and only get small amount in my glock. I good lube helps too. I use 20:1 lead/tin for my pistol rounds. In a s&w sigma and kel-tec p11 0 leading. I can deal with the light smear as it cleans easily and never gets more then that.

[metho]

I shot some of the .357" boolits today and still got leading. I guess I'll go up to .3575 next and try that.

[bowenrd]

I shot some of the .357" boolits today and still got leading. I guess I'll go up to .3575 next and try that.

Try a different lube

[jonp]

I use .356 in all 4 of my 9mm's over 5 - 5.4gr of Unique without trouble so I'm not sure that is where your problem lies. You might try 231 or Bulleye.

[NuJudge]

What are you using to measure your bullets? The cheap Vernier electronic calipers frequently are .002" off. Try to measure a known diameter bullet using the same techniques, and see what you get.

What are you using for lube? NRA formula may be smoky in lower pressure loads, but it has never failed me.

I have 4 Beretta 92 barrels, and they are all a little under .358". Make sure such a bullet in a cartridge will chamber freely, and try that.

Can I suggest a harder bullet? Most of the scrap you will find has some antimony, and with the addition of a small amount of Tin, even air cooled it will be a lot harder. Drop the bullet from the mold into a 5-gallon bucket of water and it will be much harder yet.

[MtGun44]

IME, harder is entirely unnecessary. Better lube is a great idea, concur on NRA 50-50. Start with
known good lube.

Bill

[Recluse]

I'd change lubes, too, plus I'd try a faster powder.

:coffee:

[metho]

What other lubes are out there besides LLA? Pretty much all of the other lubes besides LLA that I've seen are the hard lubes for lubrasizers.

I have some bullseye powder, I guess I could give that a try too.

[fixerupper]

Sounds like you have the usual suspects in 9mm covered.... youve slugged the bore and bullets are a couple thou oversized, you've checked a loaded round for the brass squishing your boolits down.... which was my problem when i was chasing my tail on 9mm leading.

I had a similar problem to your when I picked my M&P shield a year ago..... all my other 9s shot well with no leading using lead bullets sized to 358 with 45/45/5 lube. I use a 38 SW Lee powder thu expander and FCD with the carbide ring knocked out. I load with WSF. The Shield leaded and leaded badly.

Problem was the crown on my barrel.....small burrs all the way around. I recrowned the barrel and the leading went away.

If your leading at the end of the barrel.... check your crown. Your problem MIGHT NOT be your boolits.

[deltaenterprizes]

Try a 147 gr RN

[Kent Fowler]

A bit off topic but relevant to topic. How large can you go over the bore size before it becomes unsafe? If it chambers would it mean it's ok to shoot? Just back off the load for pressure increase?

I have a slick old Colt .357 E/I frame that has a .354 bore after fire lapping. I've been shooting an LBT 160gr. WFNGC sized to .358 and loaded pretty heavy for years. Accuracy is very good and have absolutely no problems with a .004 difference in my revolver. YMMV

[MtGun44]

"What is there besides LLA?" Oh, good grief! This mule snot, marginal junk is
a continuous headache for lots of people. I despise the smelly, sticky stuff
and have not had any good results, but did not try many times due to the mess,
sticky ammo and nasty smell. Many have succeeded with this system, but many have
also failed and moved on to conventional lube systems which are much more
developed and robust.

Now we have somehow gotten to the point where new folks think this is the
only thing, rather than, at best, the village idiot of lubes.

OK - sorry for the rant. Here is the explanation for those that have
only been introduced to casting with the Lee mule snot (LLA) system.

THE standard lube that has been pretty much the starting point in
years past is called NRA 50-50, which is a mix of Alox ???? and beeswax.
The Alox is related to LLA, but with beeswax it is much better and
is applied with a lubrisizer to only put the lube in the lube grooves, not
all over the whole danged boolit like the nasty LLA stuff. (forgot the alox
number above, put in ???)

Please learn a bit about a lubrisizer and normal lubes. You can avoid
the cost of the lubrisizer by 'pan lubing' - look it up, lots of folks have
info on it here. You can use a Lee push thru (inexpensive) sizer with
pan lubing, and not have the sticky stuff all over the boolit, plus much
better lube quality and quantity.

There are many other lube recipes, but NRA 50-50 is a "known good"
lube and should be the starting point for every new caster. Once you have
it working, then you can go off the reservation and try other lubes, and
the LLA stuff, too. It is great to experiment, but it should be after you
are making good ammo.

LLA is a marginal lube system and 9mm is a PITA with cast, and throw in
LLA with 9mm and you have a LOT of failures and a lot of new casters
struggling when they could be succeeding.

If you want a straight shot at success, here it is: buy a Lee 356-120-TC mold, cast
with straight WWT alloy, size to .358 and lube with NRA 50-50 (many brands out there
of this standard lube). You will succeed, almost certainly.

Bill

[HDS]

Have you checked what your bullets diameter is after seating it into a case? Might be you need to expand the case (via an expander die), not the bullets. .356 works flawlessly in my glock with aftermarket barrel, I also expand the case ID to .355"

[.5mv^2]

If you don't solve it just remove the lead periodically. The two things that work good for me is the Lewis Lead remover from Brownells or a copper chore boy. Also what seems to help is to shoot a jacketed bullet every so often.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2 % tin to the WWs, leave the Pb out. Lube with LLA as per the instructions and size in a .357 sizer.

Larry Gibson

metho

Do the above, let the AC'd bullets age 7 - 10 days or WQ'd bullets 48 hours and load over 3.5 gr Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[Down South]

I'm working with a 9mm now. My barrel slugs at .356". I sized 100 rds at .357 and tested them. Had slight leading that took about half a dozen strokes with a copper bore brush to clean out after 100 rds. I will try a few things but it should not take much to fix the slight leading that I had. My boolits were only about a week old and I air cooled so aging the boolits may correct it. I may need to go up on size a bit. I may need to go to a slower powder.
I sure miss the days when I could step out the back door of my shop and test loads. Now I have to drive 40 minutes to get to a range.

But if I were you, I would slug the barrel again and check the diameter with a micrometer
Another thing that I would check after you have verified the bore diameter is correct is to make a dummy round. Pull the dummy round and see if the brass is sizing your boolits down.
I had this problem and wound up having to use an expander for a 38/357.
Your alloy is pretty soft at 50/50 WW/Pure. I'd leave the pure out.
Are you using a Lee FCD? This "can" cause problems using cast boolits.

On edit: I completly missed the second page of this thread and see most of what I said has been covered.
I agree with changing the lube. But I believe that I would change boolit style first. Get a boolit with a lube groove and pan lube if you can't foot a sizer and get a Lee push through sizer. I've used several and they work well.

[sw282]

Dogs poop and barrels lead.. How much depends on how or what you feed them

[fcvan]

Loved the line about "dogs poop . . . " but, dogs can be potty trained and boolits can be loaded to not lead. Elmer Keith developed the .357 with plain based boolits at pressures higher than the 9mm. His favorite cast boolit alloy was 16-to-1 lead/tin, which has a BHN of only about 11. I have been very lucky to not have leaded more bore with loads under development. Once, I had what looked like cake frosting in my .41 Mag. Note to self: really soft, really fast, no gas check on a GC boolit doesn't work!

I started out back in the 80s loading 9mm for a S&W 459 using a Lee 356-125 2R. These were cast from range scrap where all they shot was factory swaged 38 special wadcutter boolits. I pan lubed with Javalina and sized to .356 using a Lee push through sizer. That first box leafy a little lead in the bore and were not very accurate at 25 yards. So, I shot the next box 'as cast' which measured about .3585. My S&W 459 loved it. Later, I began sizing to .358 with a Lyman 450 with great results.that S&W 459, and every other 9mm I've owned since have shot extremely well sized to .358 using softer not harder alloy.

The above loads were with 5 grains of Unique which is by no means a max load. I've switched from Javalina to Lars BAC and really like his product. Recently, I tried some near max loads of Unique with range lead and a plain based gas check. I should probably try some loads without the checks but since I make my own what the heck, why not use them! I also shot some Lee 356-102 1R boolits near max with a PB GC. Rather zippy and very fun. Personally, I would prefer a RN or TC boolit that weighed between 135 and 140 grains as cast with range scrap but haven't been unhappy with the 125 grain variety.