dacron filler, high presure ??

[enfield]

hello, I know the subject of fillers comes up a lot, it seems most don't use them but I'm in the habbit of using them cause the guy that taught me to load used either dacron, polyester, cotton balls etc. my most common load would be about 16 - 17 gr of 2400 or 4227 in my lee enfields. At first I would leave the tuft of dacron kind of loose and just touching the powder, lately I have been pushing it in a wad down on top of the powder.:confused: should I do either or is one way more likely to increase presure. ( I noticed my 94, 30-30 seemed to have quite a "kick" the other day , could it be causing a presure spike ??? ). I loaded a few with about 2 - 3 gr of bullsye to try and a 115 gr bullet could this be bad ?? . I also put cream of wheat on top of sr4759 in my 444 marlin. am I waistin my time with these extra steps in loading? so many questions such a small brain . thanks for any help.

[JeffinNZ]

Hi

I use my own brand of 100% wool wads in my .303 British loads. Charges of 17-20gr of H4227/AR2205. I push the wad down to sit on top of the powder but not compress. I get extemely good accuracy and consistency and never have any problems.

Here is a link to my site with a photo of the wads in cases.

http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/index_files/Page314.html

There is a lot of talk about ringing etc but I have never experienced anything like this is 15 years of using this type of 'packing' and belief such is related to very fast powders.

Hope this helps.

[Bass Ackward]

Filler always raises emotions because the people that use'em say they improve accuracy. Others shooting the same type and caliber of guns say they make absolutely no difference. Proof of the taste ...............

Two rules:

1. Fluffy type fillers will act as a secondary projectile if not in contact with the base of the bullet. So if you want to pack pressure on the powder, then you should use enough to have the seating of the bullet apply that pressure.

2. Solid fillers must be weighed and that weight added to the projectile in determining the safety of the pressure from the charge. The faster the powder, the more dramatic the change.

What's the worst thing that happens with case number one? You ring a chamber. Every rifle dies, (or should) yours just dies from a ringed chamber.

What's the worst case with situation #2? Sky high pressures and you blow something depending on how poorly you did your calculations.

Good Luck!

[MikeP]

I often use polyester filler cut from sheets in my cast bullet loads with fine results.

However, I have found in one .45-caliber, big-case wildcat load that I put too much filler in the formula, resulting in keyholed target holes. Also, I was finding pieces of unburned filler between me and the target. I surmised that the unburned polyester was pushing on the base of the bullet when it left the barrel and caused the keyholing.

When I reduced the amount of filler used, the keyholing and the unburned polyester residue went away and all was well.

Trial and error.

[45 2.1]

2. Solid fillers must be weighed and that weight added to the projectile in determining the safety of the pressure from the charge. The faster the powder, the more dramatic the change.

What's the worst case with situation #2? Sky high pressures and you blow something depending on how poorly you did your calculations.

This is only a secondary problem in #2. Use caution here as the filler effectively reduces the actual combustion volume of the cartridge makeing it in effect a smaller cartridge in which you very well be introducing an overload! The weight of the filler is very minor here. If useing filler, use the starting load and work up if you do not absolutely know what will happen.

[The Double D]

Enfield,

You seem to be saying one thing and describing another.

You say fillers and what you seem to be describing is wads. They are two different critters.

Wads are used to hold the powder in front of the flash hole when using small charges. They don't fill the whole case and leave an airspace between bullet and wad.

For a better understanding of how to use wads get a copy of The Schuetzen Rifle by Charles Dell. Dell did a great deal research on the subject. The folks who shoot target games like Schuetzen use reduced load and wads. If you use wads incorrectly you can damage your gun

Fillers are used to fill the airspace completely leaving no airspace.

These are used mostly in the large black powder cartridge cases like found in British Doubles. The idea is to be able to use smokeless powder charges in these old guns and keep the operating pressures down to the black powder levels so the guns will regulate. Look for the writings of Ross Seyfried and Sherman Bell and the book Shooting the British double rifle by Greame Wright for information on the techniques for using fillers.

I myself would be reluctant to use a tuft of the fiber filler materials like a wad for the fast burning shotgun and pistol powders you describe. They won't stay in place.

I would also be reluctant to use any case full of filler with those fast burning shotgun and pistol powders.

The problem with using a card wad in a 30-30 case is getting a 35 cal card through a 30 cal neck both in and out.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have found that w/ squib loads in my rifles (using pistol/shotgun powders) a filler was not worth the extra work.
But in midrange loads w/ some rifle powders(IMR4198) it was worth the effort.
I do not use a filler in full house loads.
This was in my 7mm/06.

[lovedogs]

Big controversy here... again. I've consulted with all the powder manufacturers on the subject of fillers, as well as two ballisticians. ALL of them advised against using fillers of ANY kind with smokeless powders. Use a different powder. AA5744 is made especially for applications where we use large cases and small powder charges, such as with the .45-70.

[singleshotbuff]

Enfield,

Look for the writings of Ross Seyfried and Sherman Bell and the book Shooting the British double rifle by Greame Wright for information on the techniques for using fillers.



+1 on Seyfrieds writings. He is one of my favorites and has written a lot about the use of fillers with smokeless powders. The powder he uses most often with dacron seems to be IMR-4198. He seems to use fillers and 4198 without damage to some VERY expensive rifles.

FWIW, I use dacron from time to time, I always use enough filler to completely fill the space between the powder charge and the base of the bullet.

SSB

[mag_01]

Fillers oh boy the dreaded subject -- I have used fillers with good results --- If you use Dacron you are only holding powder against the primer and have never witnessed an improvement in performance --- Powders like AA5744 or 2400 are not case sensitive so using Dacron is of little value. Solid fillers are of value and will tend to seal any potential gas leak ----- Raise pressure Oh Yes they will raise pressure and starting with a load below minimum is a good place to begin. Solid fillers will act like a gas check. Are they worth using well I guess thats up to the shooter and benefit received from using such. Strait wall cases are ideal for fillers but I personally have never witnessed a problem with bottle neck cases. Of course we all know the best filler is powder no question there. I have a shotgun filler I bought from Graf's and would like to try but as of now I loading pretty heavy and have no need for fillers. ---- Mag_01



A note about Dacron-- On a very light load for barrel slugging I found the Dacron to melt and form A donut like appearance behind the bullet --- Maybe this is use-full info. maybe not. At any rate load em as you want --Be safe---and shoot em thats the important thing.

[waksupi]

I suspect why the powder company illuminati don't want you using fillers, is because they would have to do a lot more testing, to build a reference line. And they don't want to do that, they want to sell (insert appropriate, powder, bullets, primers), and not filler.
I have seen definite improvements in some loads using fillers. One of my .358 Win.'s MUCH prefers some filler, using WC852(f), and the heavy 277 gr. Bator bullet. Makes around 3/4" difference in the 100 yard group.

As always, YMMV.

[singleshotbuff]

I wonder about using dacron with some of the surp powders to build pressure for a cleaner burn? Maybe with WC860?

Just thinkin out loud here.

SSB

[Hayfield]

I just tested some 'fillered' loads and loads without filler last Saturday. No 4 Mk1 SMLE, 314299, 21grs 4198 + 23 grs (by/wt) cornmeal and 21 grs 4198 neat. 100 yds. Fillered load shot 2" higher, same group size (1 1/2" or so) and more recoil with the filler which was expected. 2nd load; 29.5 grs IMR 4895 + 19 grs cornmeal filler vs same load no filler. Same results. Filler made little difference other than shooting higher so more pressure is indicated here (but I suppose I could be mistaken). 4198 doesn't seem to be powder position sensitive but the 4895 sure is. I should have put them over the chrony but I'm lazy and I already did for the 4985......1640fps. I probably won't use the filler.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
A side benifit of a filler might be prevention of a S.E.E. W/ loads around 50% case capsity. Just a thought.

[Hayfield]

Question.....Would Dacron (I've used a 1/2"x1/2"x1/2" piece in the past just to test) actually make any difference in pressure? It pretty much has no wieght. I understand the extra 20 grains or so of cornmeal making a difference. Boom Boom, most of my loads are basically 50% case capacity and since discovering 4895 being position sensitive in my SMLE I've chosen to go with a powder more suitable rather than use a filler. Thus the 4198 load which didn't seem to be affected by position/ and I did actually try to make it shoot differently by loading it while the gun was on the bench and closing the bolt as opposed to lifting the muzzel to throw the bolt home.

[The Double D]

I suspect why the powder company illuminati don't want you using fillers, is because they would have to do a lot more testing, to build a reference line. And they don't want to do that, they want to sell (insert appropriate, powder, bullets, primers), and not filler.
I have seen definite improvements in some loads using fillers. One of my .358 Win.'s MUCH prefers some filler, using WC852(f), and the heavy 277 gr. Bator bullet. Makes around 3/4" difference in the 100 yard group.

As always, YMMV.

waksupi is dead on correct. There is an exception to this how ever. Shotgun loads. The powder manufactures do test wads and fillers. But read their warning and heed. Do not substitute component!

When I use a wad, I track the material and its dimensions--diameter and thhickness.

I also do the same with fillers. I just don't tear a tuft of kapok or dacron and stuff it in. I weight each tuft so they are uniformly the same. Every thing else going is measured why shouldn't the filler be. I also compress the kapok or dacron so it is not loose.

As to the powdered solid like CoW, puflon and cornmeal, be very careful using these things in bottle neck cartridges. When fired this stuff slugs up and moves as a solid and has to be extrude through the case neck. It can and will stretch necks.

http://www.fototime.com/3294C502B57C8DF/standard.jpg