New Lyman mould dropping a little small

[robpete]

I recently bought a brand new 4 cavity 452374 mould(manufactured 9-14-12) and used it for the first time this afternoon. It's supposed to drop them at .453 @ 225 gr. I'm getting .451 @ an avg of 229 gr. I read the little fold-out that was in the box. It stated that all Lyman moulds are set up for #2. I was casting an alloy consisting of some range scrap, lino, and 50/50 solder. I just checked the hardness a short while ago and it came in right around 11.3 BHN.

I also want to add that some of them are not perfectly round. If I measure on the seam, they come in at .453 and if i rotate 90 degrees, they come in at .451. it's like they're oblonged.

My questions are: is 3.7 BHN really going to make a .002 difference? Can this possibly be a defective mould?

Thanks all,
Rob

[wallenba]

Beagle it with furnace tape and it should be perfectly round. Got some molds like that too. Sizers then take care of the problem, the chamber throats will too. Shoot em', and see. That's the best test.

[robpete]

please forgive my ignorance, but how does one beagle a mould? Thanks!

[Love Life]

Welcome to lyman mould quality....

For beagling the mould you stick the piece of furnace tape on one half of the mould blocks, and this keeps the mould from closing all the way and thus gives you an increased diameter. If ordered from Midway I would send the mould back...

[robpete]

the problem with sending the mould back is that I won't see a replacement for months on end. I called Lyman on this and they had no logical explaination. They suggested that I send it back, but said it would take months to get a new one out. The rep said they are working on full overdrive to meet the current(insane) demands. I suggested that was possibly a large factor on diminishing quality. To my surprise, she actually agreed with me. I'm not sure that a replacement would be any better.

[Love Life]

Good point. Beagling will be the way to go. It actually works very well whenever I have tried it.

What temperature were you casting at? Were the boolits super frosty (almost crystallized) and have rounded bases?

There might be other reasons for the boolits being undersized. As for being out of round, you may not have had the mould squeezed shut enough. I am not questioning your casting abilities, just want to make sure it is the mould before it has to be beagled or sent back.

[robpete]

today was actually the first day that I have ever used a thermometer(scored a 1,000 degree tel-tru for $18). anyway, I kept the temp in the 700-750 range

63478
63479
63480

[runfiverun]

i really like lyman molds.
well thier designs anyway.
i have become a champ at lapping them rounder and larger in the last couple of years.

[robpete]

Run - What is your technique for lapping? You only get one shot at it!

[tomme boy]

I had a 2 cavity in the same mold that was made in 1994. It casted at 0.450" I didn't want to mess around with Lyman at all. I sent it to Eric at Hollow Point molds. He opened it up to 0.453" and perfectly round for me. Some say that there are no undersize Lyman molds. And it is the alloy and the person that are wrong. I say it is a combination of the problems. Give Eric a email, he will make it right.

[runfiverun]

erick is good,i'd have him open a little spot right in front of the lube groove
to 452.
that mold is famous for having lube squirt up the boolit.

anyway lapping is really as simple as.
some lapping compound
a screw
a cordless drill
i finish off with whitening toothpaste.

lap, measure, pour, do it again.
i like to lap the mold when it's up to temperature.

[cbrick]

I recommend Erik also. He has opened the driving bands on several molds for me and each one came back within a week and were perfect. Check out his web site . . .

Hollow Point Mold Service (http://www.hollowpointmold.com/)

Rick

[357shooter]

I recently bought a brand new 4 cavity 452374 mould(manufactured 9-14-12) and used it for the first time this afternoon. It's supposed to drop them at .453 @ 225 gr. I'm getting .451 @ an avg of 229 gr. I read the little fold-out that was in the box. It stated that all Lyman moulds are set up for #2. I was casting an alloy consisting of some range scrap, lino, and 50/50 solder. I just checked the hardness a short while ago and it came in right around 11.3 BHN.

I also want to add that some of them are not perfectly round. If I measure on the seam, they come in at .453 and if i rotate 90 degrees, they come in at .451. it's like they're oblonged.

My questions are: is 3.7 BHN really going to make a .002 difference? Can this possibly be a defective mould?

Thanks all,
Rob

The simple fix is to try casting with a hotter mold. That affects the bullets roundness, with the largest diameter bullets dropping just shy of frosting. A little frosting is actually OK and won't understize the bullets like a too hot, or too cool mould will. Either preheat the mould more, cast faster, or increase the alloy temp, and see what that does.

If there's not enough of an change than lapping, or using Hollow Point Mould per the other posts is the way to go. I hate lapping Lyman moulds, aluminium is much easier to work with, but it does work on the iron/lead too.

[robpete]

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm going to give Erik a call today. I think it's best to leave this one to an expert. I'll end up trashing a brand new mould if i attempt it on my own.

[leadhead]

Isn't it a PITA to have to spend more money on an already costly mold?
I'll never buy another new lyman mold. The've been making them under
size for years. Cherrys are worn out....
Denny

[robpete]

Denny,

I'm definitely not too thrilled about it, but my options are slim. I wouldn't resell it without disclosing that it's dropping undersized...then I'd probably take a loss anyway. Also, new moulds are hard to come by right now. Used ones are going for as much as twice as new(I've been watching a few 9mm moulds on ebay). As things appear....chances are that a used one would throw undersized too. sigh

[fryboy]

out of round isnt a new problem altho the undersize dia. tends to be a newer problem
alloy can play a part in finished size with some alloys being known to grow after casting just a skoosh ( in this case skoosh = wee lil bit ) i have a made on purpose underize ( for what i sometimes use it for ) mold , it was made for BP conicals , it cast .4505 with Pb and rite at .451 with a soft alloy ( 50/50 ww/Pb ) being soft it obturates ok with warm 45 loads but if made fatter with a harder alloy is doesnt swell up enough and leaves a lil leading ( even/especially driven hot )
the beagling tape is a quick fix and doesnt change/alter the actual mold ( ie; it's reversible ) i wouldnt pressure pour with it in place however :P i have 3 molds in this profile , a 4 cav, a 2 cav and the single cav HP version , the HP is the newest made one and it's on the verge of being undersize but because i use a really soft alloy ( 4/1 Pb/ww ) it shoots pretty good and a .451 sizing die just barely kisses it , if you can afford it the mihec group buy currently going on would be the mold to get in on !!!

[phaessler]

Typical "NEW" Lyman, all I can add. Frustation is in the fine print of their instruction manuals.
You have to wonder if they are using 50+ year old cherries to make them. I refuse to play the game, would rather take my chances on evilbay, or make an investment with NOE,Miha, or Accurate.
Pete

[leadhead]

robpete, If you can get the old lyman or Ideal molds, you won't
have a problem. I'm always on the look out for them. Nothing
wrong with a used mold unless it's beat to hell and back.
What area are you from in Pittsburgh? I live in Leechburg.
Denny

[Ben]

Typical "NEW" Lyman, all I can add. Frustation is in the fine print of their instruction manuals.
You have to wonder if they are using 50+ year old cherries to make them.


I've bought my last " New " Lyman mold, they have serious problems and show little signs of doing anything about it.

Ben

[Larry Gibson]

I was casting an alloy consisting of some range scrap, lino, and 50/50 solder. I just checked the hardness a short while ago and it came in right around 11.3 BHN.

Robpete


There in probably is the real problem. Lyman moulds are designed to cast nominal diameter with #2 alloy. It's not the additional 3+ BHN that makes the differenece it is the appropriate balance of tin and antimony in solution with the lead. Your range scrap is probably high on antimony and low on tin (even with the added solder - you don't say how much) if it was the usual mix of a lot of commercial cast, factory lead and jacketed cores. Add 2% tin to the range lead (should have an AC'd BHN after 7 days of 12 - 13) and try. If that works and you want to stretch the RL a little you can add 25% lead. Both alloys will WQ to 20 - 24 BHN after 48 hours BTW.

I've a standing offer to test any Lyman mould and if it doesn't cast nominal (452xxx) with the correct alloy and casting technique I will give you what you paid for it + postage. I extend that offer to you here on this mould. You can then get a custom mould. If you want to take me up PM me for my address.

Larry Gibson

[462]

Robpete,
Beagle the mould first. It's easier than lapping, is reversible, and it works. Once you get boolits to the size you need, then you can always lap it (another easy process, just time consuming).

Shoot me a PM with your mailing address and I'll send you some tape, making the entire project cost-free.

Edit to add: Just read Larry's post and his very generous offer -- WOW!

[runfiverun]

that is Larry's standing offer..
he's had it for quite some time now.

[robpete]

larry, that is a very generous offer. I understand Lyman's alloy requirement. I just don't want to get into having to use a specific alloy for particular molds. I don't take a very scientific approach to making my alloys. I try go by the Lyman number 2 recipes(5 lbs Pb, 4 lbs Lino and 1 lbs 50/50 or 9 lbs COWW and 1 pound 50/50). However, I kind of just approximate on a kitchen scale and toss everything in the pot. In this case, I substituted range scrap for pure. As long as I'm close to the 12 BHN mark, I'm a happy camper.......as it suits my handgun plinking needs. Thanks again, the offer truly is appreciated.

[robpete]

Incidentally, I did speak to Erik @ hollow point today. He said this is a known issue with the newer Lyman mould. Particularly the mould being slightly out of alignment and causing the bullet to be somewhat oblong in shape(though this was only apparent in a small percentage). He said he can open it up and also correct the lube flow-out issue. However it probably would not be worth the cost. He actually recommended that I just sell the mould and use the proceeds towards a custom job. On a side note, him recommending this really says a lot about his character….. as he could have easily convinced me to send him the mould and some money. I’m not sure what I’m going to do yet, but I know I’ll be sending that gentleman some work soon!

[tomme boy]

My 45 mold would only do 0.451" with pure virgin lino. But I never seen your offer on this until after I had Eric open it up. From what everyone here has said, if you can't get it to cast larger with lino, it is under size.

[Iowa Fox]

Since that is a 4 cav mold I would return it for a full refund. Its only going to be miserable for as long as you own it. You could look for an old Ideal/Lyman 4 cav in the same # asking the seller what diameter bullets it drops or go with a custom maker. The old Ideal 4 cav molds really dropped some nice bullets.

[hickfu]

And that is why I only buy custom molds! All I use as molds from Accuratemolds.com Tom is a great guy to deal with and it doesnt take months to get a mold from him. I had some molds stolen when I went to take my wifes aunt to the hospital and through donations from people on this forum and the Marlin Owners forum I was able to order replacment molds so I can keep casting (and yet another Thank you to all of you!!!) I ordered about a week ago and just got an email from Tom saying that the molds are ready to ship. You wont get Lyman doing that....

Check out accurate molds site, Tom has pages of molds you can order in any caliber and if he doesnt have something you like then you can send him a boolit and he will make you a mold to copy that boolit.


Doc

[nanuk]

You know what I'd do?

I'd box it up, with about 10lbs of alloy, and return postage + $20, and mail it off to Larry. (if he'd agree to 'suss' it out)

if it isn't up to snuff, I'd take him up on the offer

if he can get it working, by tweaking the alloy, or beagling, or whatever, then yo have a working mould for a few extra bucks. AND you'd know what your alloy needs to produce!

a no risk opportunity

[Larry Gibson]

larry, that is a very generous offer. I understand Lyman's alloy requirement. I just don't want to get into having to use a specific alloy for particular molds. I don't take a very scientific approach to making my alloys. I try go by the Lyman number 2 recipes(5 lbs Pb, 4 lbs Lino and 1 lbs 50/50 or 9 lbs COWW and 1 pound 50/50). However, I kind of just approximate on a kitchen scale and toss everything in the pot. In this case, I substituted range scrap for pure. As long as I'm close to the 12 BHN mark, I'm a happy camper.......as it suits my handgun plinking needs. Thanks again, the offer truly is appreciated.

Approximating is fine but the substitution of range scrap for PB is what drastically increased the antimony content and that is the problem. I would note that you may not such a happy camper as this thread is about your Lyman mould casting undersize. As we find the problem is not really the mould but the alloy you've made up. No criticism here as many do what you do with sometimes satisfactory results and sometimes not.

The problem with a custom mould that will cast appropriately sized bullets with such an alloy is that when you get a good alloy the bullets will be really over size. I've bought 3 GB moulds that were supposed to be slightly oversized and with straight WWs they are. However, when I cast with a good alloy they are way oversized. With #2 alloy or COWWs + 2% tin alloys my 314291 GB mould will drop .318 bullets, my GB 314041 drops them at .316 and a GB 429421 dopped them at .436 - .438! The 1st 2 are too large for .30 cals and even some .31s and the .44 mould I sold as when sizing down to .431 it got too distorted and squished. I prefer rifle bullets to be .002 - .003 over groove and revolver at throat or .001 under but those bullets all required excessive sizing.

It's your mould and you are free to do with it as you want but you might reconsider before altering what is probably a very good 4 cavity mould. Selling it to someone who wants it the way it is and buying the custom mould for the alloy you want to use (hopefully you can then continue to replicate that alloy) may be a better alternative. Just my thoughts are all and my offer still stands.

Larry Gibson

[375RUGER]

Where'd you get the idea that the mould 452xxx is supposed to cast .453? I was under the impression that the 452 in the mould designation was the nominal diameter for #2 alloy. I could be wrong though.
Another question is how do you know you're not happy with the boolits unless you shoot them? I like round boolits too, but out of round shoot just fine most of the time.

[robpete]

Undersized bullets in my 1911 equals leading.

[detox]

Out of round bullets (more than .002") are mainly caused by mold halves not lining up square. You may have some loose fitting pins or warped mould. My one time experience with Lyman and Lee moulds has been poor. From my own personal experience RCBS makes the best quality mould, but also cost more money

[earplug]

I recently bought a new two cavity Lyman 452374 to complement my older ten year old mold which drops .453 bullets. Using the same alloy the new mold drops a .450-.451 bullet.
I have used the online Lyman customer service system twice in the past ten days, I have received no answer on getting this mold replaced.

[robpete]

I have used the online Lyman customer service system twice in the past ten days, I have received no answer on getting this mold replaced.

They will replace it. It will take months and, unfortunately, they're just going to send you another undersized mold. Save yourself a major headache and just list it on ebay....then go custom. If you're a fan of that design, there are a few makers that do nice copies. You can get the exact diameter desired....using any specified alloy.

-Rob

[prs]

About a year or so ago I purchased two Lyman 4 cavity moulds. One the same as the OP's and another the old Lyman 452 SWC design. Both drop .452 and round with my 95/2/3 alloy. I do cast right at the first stage of even frost. Just lucky, I guess. Then again, I recently received an "M" die in 45ACP that was a sorry example of pride in workmanship.

prs

[TheCelt]

I had a 2 cavity in the same mold that was made in 1994. It casted at 0.450" I didn't want to mess around with Lyman at all. I sent it to Eric at Hollow Point molds. He opened it up to 0.453" and perfectly round for me. Some say that there are no undersize Lyman molds. And it is the alloy and the person that are wrong. I say it is a combination of the problems. Give Eric a email, he will make it right.

+1 for Eric, sent him a 225415 that was casting small and out of round. Got back a work of art. I asked for .227 (I size to .226) with an approximation of #2 alloy and that is EXACTLY what I got on all bands.