.44 Mag,300Gr TCFP,H110,CCI-300?

[JesterGrin_1]

I am planning some new loads for my .44 Magnum Marlin 1894 SS. With a 300 Grain TCFP Bullet. And would like to ask if you can use a standard primer such as the CCI-300 or the Remington 21/2 Primer. The plan is to load them with 18.O Grains of H110?

The reason I ask about the primers is they are a little hard to find right now and I have a bunch of the CCI-300's and a couple of thousand of the Remington 2 1/2 Primers.


Thank You all for any information I can get. :)

[txbirdman]

I would stick with the mag primers if I were you. I've had some ingition problems with H110 in the past with WLP primers. I always use CCI 350's.

[JesterGrin_1]

Well change of plans then lol. Heading out to get some W296. :)

[JDL]

CCI 300 seems to light off my load of 23 grains of H-110/Lee C430-310 real well. -JDL

[singleshotbuff]

Jester,

Just a heads up, W296 is the same powder as H110. W296 requires a mag primer as well. I have used W296 for over 15 years in heavy 45 colt loads and on occasion I have tested identical loads with 296 & 110. The differences in the 2 loads are less than you'd get from 2 lots of the same powder. I'm sure there are others here on the board who can verify what I'm saying.

FWIW I use CCI-350s as well.

SSB

[44man]

Mag primers are not needed in the .44 or .45 unless it is way below zero outside. They have always tripled group size.
Clifton, go to 20.5 gr's to start and work to 22 gr's, 18 is too light. 19 gr's would be a starting load with either powder but that boolit should shoot best around 21 gr's.
296 and H110 ARE the same powders but WW gets a different burn rate then Hodgden and the difference is enough that one gun will hate one over the other. It is much more then the difference between lots. If you just stick with one, you might be missing out on better accuracy, both must be tested.
In guns that like 296, I find 1/2 gr more H110 is needed to match velocity but accuracy is never matched. Guns that love H110 can't be made to shoot 296 near as good. Sounds stupid but after testing both in many guns for many years I can't explain it either. You need to keep an open mind and have both powders on hand.
Don't believe the books that say a mag primer is needed either. If you don't test for yourself, you can't just repeat that. My .475 HAS to have a mag primer for accuracy but they never go near my .44 or .45.

[singleshotbuff]

I have found that in my guns, a mag primer with 296 decreases S.D., E.S. and group size. I don't know that it is needed for ignition reliablity as is often stated. FWIw, I shoot a 4 5/8" and a 5 1/2" gun and don't normally shoot when it's below 20 degrees.

Point being, you'll never know if the standard primers, with your gun and components, will work unless you try them.

SSB

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay here is what I found today. .44 Magnum 1894 Marlin SS. Williams FP-336 with .050 aperture and stock front sight with brass bead.



300 Gr TCFP .431, 18.5Gr of W 296 with a CCI-300 Winchester Case(5 Rounds) First loads were with 18Gr of W296 (This is the kicker lol. Both this load and the next with the 300Gr TCFP went into just under and at 2inch groups) I am happy about that :o). As either I am there or I am very close.

300 Gr TCFP .431, 19Gr of W 296 with a CCI-300 Winchester Case(5 Rounds)

Oh and one more thing I found that helped which was a bit odd to me lol. Is I loaded only one round in the tube at a time to chamber. If I would fill the tube with the rounds it would string. So I feel the weight of the bullets puts pressure on the barrel and frame and thus as the tube will get lighter for each round spent it would change the stress on the barrel. But my thinking could be all wet lol. But all I know is it grouped well today. And even caused a Wooooooooo Hoooooooo on the firing line lol.


Also I found with this testing the people that say not to use the heavier bullets like the 300 because they will not stabilize well they are wrong. As I think I am going to stick with the 300 Gr TCFP and concentrate on a load for that round. It was also a bit windy down here today and that could also cause the 300Gr to be more accurate than the 240Gr due to the fact the wind does not move it around as easy. But I could be wrong with that as well lol. Just a thought. And also feel that since I am going to use it for hunting the 300Gr TCFP will do a better job. But this also could be wrong. But I will say this at the other end of the field it sure would dislodge some rocks and send them flying from the back stop at the 100 yard range. Where the others that were shooting did not have things flying around at the other end lol.

Thank You so much as I am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel and I do not think it is a train heading towards me lol. So I will keep everyone on this forum informed to my findings. As I am sure I am going to do a bunch more. This is FUN. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[JesterGrin_1]

I am also keeping up with this thread since when I started I could not find a good testing thread with real findings of loads and feed back. So maybe as I learn so maybe others will get some information to help them along in there quest to make the Marlin a good shooter with no scope or fancy stuff. Just a simple gun with open sights and the great out doors. And never feel under gunned for anything. It just takes practice and patience. I am working on the practice but the patience is harder to come by for me lol. So I am using up some lead and gun powder but I will get there and have fun doing it. After all isn't this supposed to be fun.

[JesterGrin_1]

Back To Top. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay if anyone is reading this stuff here is some more info for today lol. My loads were as follows.

300TCFP 19.5Gr of W296 with a CCI-300 Primer Win Case

" "20.0Gr" " " " "

" "20.5Gr " " " "

For some reason my groups opened up a bit with the increase of powder charge to roughly a 3.5in Square group with the 20.5Gr charge. And also would experience a first round flyer with the increased powder charge. So at this point I am waiting on some feed back to see if I should continue with increasing powder charges to see if the group comes back down or go back to the 18.5Gr powder charge of the W296. Also from the powder charge of 18.5 to 20.5 the point of impact went up vertical 12 inches at the 100 yard distance.

[JesterGrin_1]

Should I continue to update this thread or am I just taking up band width?

[lovedogs]

44Man, do you mean if I quit using CCI 350's in my Marlins, Rugers, and Contenders they'll shoot tighter groups? Wow! The Marlin and T/C shoot 1 in. 100 yd. groups now. If I drop the mag primer they'll shoot into less than that inch?

I know some of us don't like to hear opinions of the ballisticians who have gone to school and know much more about this stuff than most of us but all of them I've talked with seem pretty knowledgeable and honest. They say different combinations of bullets, cartridges, powders, and primers act differently. There are no absolutes it seems. You may be able to get away with defying the advice of the "experts" for a long time, maybe forever. But, as sometimes happens, you can get into real trouble. I've seen enough people get into trouble by doing their own thing that I prefer to stay safe and follow the advice given by the experts. I've never seen anyone get into trouble by doing that.

Let me repeat just one example. This defies all reason but it actually happened to someone I know personally. This fellow bought and blew up a new Ruger rifle (M-77). How? All he did is to load a reasonable charge of H-4831 in his .270. I sent the rifle in to Ruger for him. They called and asked if I knew how he blew it up. I told them what the load was. Of course, they don't like us to reload. But, if you are familiar with the .270 you know you can't stuff enough H-4831 into a case to blow up a rifle using a 130 gr. bullet. But Ruger told me they have repaired several rifles that were blown up because the loads didn't use the right (mag) primer with this powder. How does it happen? I don't know. But I know it can happen.

So I use what's recommended. I never have problems with pressures, accuracy, or anything else. There's nothing wrong with going with what is published in the manuals and it can often save you a lot of grief.

[JesterGrin_1]

Lovedogs. Okay with everything you put down how is your information going to help or educate people with the loading that I have on this thread? If you have information that will help please post it as I am sure along with my self others may also be interested?

[warf73]

For some reason my groups opened up a bit with the increase of powder charge to roughly a 3.5in Square group with the 20.5Gr charge.According to Hodgon web site 19.0grs is max load with a 300 XTP using H110, I know that cast bullets produce less pressure but you might not want to go any higher in powder charge. And also would experience a first round flyer with the increased powder charge. So at this point I am waiting on some feed back to see if I should continue with increasing powder charges to see if the group comes back down or go back to the 18.5Gr powder charge of the W296.Your rifle seems to like 18.5grs so stick with it. Also from the powder charge of 18.5 to 20.5 the point of impact went up vertical 12 inches at the 100 yard distance. I may be wrong but your stringing is a result in higher FPS.

[JesterGrin_1]

For some reason my groups opened up a bit with the increase of powder charge to roughly a 3.5in Square group with the 20.5Gr charge.According to Hodgon web site 19.0grs is max load with a 300 XTP using H110, I know that cast bullets produce less pressure but you might not want to go any higher in powder charge. And also would experience a first round flyer with the increased powder charge. So at this point I am waiting on some feed back to see if I should continue with increasing powder charges to see if the group comes back down or go back to the 18.5Gr powder charge of the W296.Your rifle seems to like 18.5grs so stick with it. Also from the powder charge of 18.5 to 20.5 the point of impact went up vertical 12 inches at the 100 yard distance. I may be wrong but your stringing is a result in higher FPS.


Maybe I explained it wrong. There was not a string that was 12 inches long. The group went up 12 inches from the 19.O Gr to the 20.5Gr load. So yes I agree it did so due to the increased powder charge.

I am using W296

I just had to ask this forum as I have read that in the lower powder charges you may get a good group but the FPS will be low and that at times when you increase the FPS along with a powder increase the group may open up again and then close up. But right now I am leaning toward what you are saying by going back to 18.0GR and 19.0Gr and playing with that in .01 increments. :)

Thank You so much for the Feed Back. :)

I did call Hodgdon and was informed it would be safe to follow this load.

325 GR. BTB LFN GC 325 296 .430" 1.730" 20.0 1264 30,800 CUP 22.0 1368 38,100 CUP But that I could also use the lower loading specs as you mentioned to find what the rifle would like.

[Bass Ackward]

Maybe I explained it wrong. There was not a string that was 12 inches long. The group went up 12 inches from the 19.O Gr to the 20.5Gr load. So yes I agree it did so due to the increased powder charge.
I just had to ask this forum as I have read that in the lower powder charges you may get a good group but the FPS will be low and that at times when you increase the FPS along with a powder increase the group may open up again and then close up. But right now I am leaning toward what you are saying by going back to 18.0GR and 19.0Gr and playing with that in .01 increments. :)


JG,

The answer to your question is that there are harmonal node points for cast. And these are based upon friction. But you need the case capacity to be able to reach these next zones and this isn't one of them.

What is more frequently located (but not identified by the shooter) is when accuracy is found that it is the balance point for that rifle, that rifle's bore condition, that load, that lube, that metal hardness, that, that, that. Catch my drift? If you want to be able to go on up, you must improve one or several of these variables.

How about your rifle? There is a "Sticky" for improving common problems associated with lever rifles that limit their accuracy called Levergunitis. If you are interested, see if it applies.

How about bore condition? There .... are .... threads about fire lapping too.

Load improvement? There are tons of posts on loads. What they don't tell you is all the techniques behind those loads. And the biggest variable is STILL the GUN. So always start low and work up, lower loads can be used as a guideline.

Lubes? Yea, there here too.

Metal hardness? Everything from soft to hard and how to mix or HT to get there.

This board basically has two focuses. One is to help people get started.

The second one is advancing cast bullet techniques for the guy who wants .... more. How do you know when you are ready for more information? When you start asking the question, "Why can one guy do it, and another ( I ) can't?" What's he doing better than me?

Ask yourself why JDL's posted 23 grain loading is so far above your accuracy point? You can PM him and maybe find out what he is doing to reach those levels. Is he shooting accurately at that level? Maybe he is interested in minute of deer accuracy? I doubt it though. What lube is he using? How old is his rifle and did he shoot a lot of jacketed bullets first to break it in. Did he fire lap? Is he shooting harder bullets?

Sometimes a guy just lucks into a great set-up / combination. And .... sometimes, he may have to do a little work if he wants to get there.

[Lloyd Smale]

For the most part i use mag primers with 110/296. If you use a chrono youll find out that it doesnt light off that well especially if its cold or you are using any kind of a reduced load without them. Funny thing is ive seen where std primers grouped well on paper even with big velocity swings and sometimes i think id be better off the throw away the chrono as it makes me throw away some loads that seem to shoot well. But then again of a load is swinging 200 fps its not going to do real well way out at long range anyway. Id have to say though that if a guy lived where the temps dont get down below 30 degrees youd probably do just fine with std primers

[cohutt]

According to Hodgon web site 19.0grs is max load with a 300 XTP using H110, I know that cast bullets produce less pressure but you might not want to go any higher in powder charge.

Funny you mention this-

I posted in another forum lyesterday in a thread about 300g loads. The "impact" load i settled on (for 629 classic, not rifle) was 19.2g of H110 w/mag primer.
Afterwards i went to Hogdon's load data site and found the max listed as 19.0. I started wondering how i arrived at 19.2 as i never go higher than listed max of either powder mfr or bullet mfr-

I checked and my Hornady manual lists 20.1, so that question is answered. (for pistols and 44mag that is). This is using the 300g xtp thay make.

For rifle 44mag loads with the same bullet though, 18.4 is listed.

No lead data by Hornady for 300g btw.

[JesterGrin_1]

Update on decision. :). I have decided to work with the 18.5Gr and up to 19Gr of W296 as the increased powder charge of 20.5Gr caused leading. Just trying to push them too fast.

And since I am learning and also trying to find out facts. I am going to do something here to appease people on both sides of the coin as for Mag Primer Or Standard Primer.

So with the powder charges given and no changes I am going to load some rounds with CCI-300 Primers,Rem 2 1/2 Primers,Win WLP which says is good for Mag or Standard primer selection and if I can find them some CCI-350 primers. And I will post my findings. :)