evilBay lives up to its' nickname

[uscra112]

So, I bought a $9.00 item on evilBay a couple days ago, and went to pay with PayPal, which I hate but they require it, and they refused to execute the payment. A day later I get an email saying that because I had bought a "limit" of $2000 using Paypal, (over 2-3 years now), they required that I give them my bank account information so they could debit my bank directly instead of charging a credit card, as I had reluctantly agreed to when I broke down and opened a Paypal account. Only option they offer is to sign up for their credit card, (at an unstated interest rate), or deposit cash in a "prepay" account, so they collect the float until I use it up.

Anybody else run into this?

Needless to say, I am now done with evilBay, since joining up in 2001. They insult us by prohibiting many sorts of gun related items from being listed on evilBay, they rake sellers for fees and commissions, they rake buyers with this kind of thing, (I'd use another word but CB is a family site), Paypal prohibits any off-evilBay payments for gun related stuff, and-and-and.

I'll miss a lot of chances at old collectible stuff from estates and whatnot, but for everything else there's Amazon.

[starmac]

That is strange, I have spent over 2 grand on one purchase several times, but not so much in the last couple years.

[Swamp Man]

I've never had any trouble from them and I have spent a heck of a lot more then 2,000 in the last year. It could be that the CC I use for paypal is a bank card that can be charged or instant debit.

[nhrifle]

I don't use Paypal because of various policies on their part. They are constanty changing the rules it seems, and I got fed up with them. It's too bad too. I've missed out on some really great deals on this site because I won't use them.

[marlin39a]

They have been set up this way with me for years. I've never had any problems. I need access to EBAY for things I collect. I just play the game.

[imashooter2]

I set them up with a bank account that I only use to get money out of PayPal and use my credit card to buy things. You don't have to pay by debit.

[turmech]

First let me say I am not defending Paypal or endorsing it (I don't want to get my chops busted). I think what you are referring to is that you can only spend a certain amount with out being verified. They claim this is to prevent CC fraud. You give them you banking information they make 2 small charges (like .01 and .03 or similar). You then log on and tell them what they charged. They put the amount back in and then you are verified so they call it. After that they will always default to the bank account but you can change it to a CC before you hit the pay button.

I could be mistaken an this is not what you are talking about. They used to do this when you spent a certain amount in a given month.

[HighHook]

I understand your frustrations with those bloodsuckers. I feel the same way but I still use them to sell stuff for extra spending money.

[Case Stuffer]

We have a winner!!!

Yes for Pay Pal , Debite Cards, BAnk Account tied to such and used for on-line transactionsuse a seperate bank account and sperate credit / debit cards with low limits.

[farmerjim]

I just hit the $10,000 limit several months ago. I opened another account with a different credit card and email address.
I do not like pay pal at all, but many only take it. I try to call and send a check, money order, or use a credit card.
If it is local pickup, I call and bring cash.
I will only use eBay as a last resort. But I will not cut off my nose to spite my face.

[Ramar]

"But I will not cut off my nose to spite my face."
What's a nose?

[Doc65]

I am currently in a fight with EvilBAY about fees, they estimated shipping on an item I sold, and underestimated it by a fair amount, well the buyer paid their estimate, and I still shipped it simply eating the loss, then Evil came back and wanted fees, I dutifully paid the insertion fee(which wasn't supposed to happen as it was one of their Zero Insertion fees promotions), and their final value fee. What I refuse and contend is wrong is a fee on the shipping. Yes, they think that they are due a fee for the shipping of items, this is in the BEST case, a zero net gain for the buyer & seller, however in this case thanks to Evil's inaccurate calculation, it was actually a net LOSS to me.

A commission on selling something is one thing, you know that going in, but a commission on the EXPENSE of shipping an item, that is just wrong in my mind. They are pushing it hard, & I'm pushing back just as hard as I can, oh, and for the record the actual "fee" on this is like $4.50 I know it seems trivial, but it's the PRINCIPAL!!!

[elkhuntfever]

I almost always ask the seller if they will take a Postal Money order before I bid. Takes longer and more trouble but I would rather not get into PayPal at this time.

[imashooter2]

They announced they were going to charge fees on shipping over a year ago. It was part of the user agreement you signed up to when you listed the item. More tuition in the college of life. If there i anything to fight about, it's the insertion fee.

[Alan in Vermont]

I strongly suspect that one of the reasons eBay went to charging shipping was because unscrupulous sellers were trying to get around paying fees by doing Buy It Now sales where they were selling a $50 item, that would have cost $5 to ship, by listing the item for $5 with shipping for $50.

[Doc65]

I understand that they probably snuck it into one of their changes that is so full of legalese as to not get read(or if read, possibly missed, which is half the reason for burying things IN legalese).

I may in fact wind up paying it in the end, though for now I am making a point. It's called "non-violent resistance" to something that I believe is fundimentaly wrong. I am also making the point that the actual commission fees that they have lost on other items that might have been listed and hopefully sold, thru them far exceeds the fees they are trying to get for shipping, which they did nothing for, and in fact, due to their inaccurate calculation they COST additional money.

[uscra112]

I set them up with a bank account that I only use to get money out of PayPal and use my credit card to buy things. You don't have to pay by debit.

That may be the only solution.

I sold off maybe $20K worth of my motorcycle collection before they instituted the Paypal-only policy. Only problems I ever had were Southeast Asian buyers, and that was only two or three out of several hundred. I've bought at least as much or more, had over 1600 positive feedbacks over 12-13 years, always using the same CC, one that I've had since 1986 for heaven's sake, what do they need to "verify"? I'm wondering if my buying 3-4 reloading items in the last month or six weeks set off a tripwire? Or the fact that I use Ghostery to block their snooper scripts? (Great add-in to Firefox, by the way, along with Adblock. And in that vein a huge THANK YOU to Cast Boolits in that Ghostery only finds one script, while some sites have over twenty!)

[uscra112]

"But I will not cut off my nose to spite my face."
What's a nose?

We call it the ogive. :)

[Doc65]

...or that they simply saw it as a way to sneak more funds out of people that wouldn't notice it and pad their own bonus by bringing in additional capitol that they didn't have to EARN, INVEST, or otherwise DO ANYTHING for...


I strongly suspect that one of the reasons eBay went to charging shipping was because unscrupulous sellers were trying to get around paying fees by doing Buy It Now sales where they were selling a $50 item, that would have cost $5 to ship, by listing the item for $5 with shipping for $50.

[gbrown]

I have used Ecraze, aka evilbay, aka ebay, forever. It's a forum just like this one. It's purpose is to provide a market place for the world. However, it is incorporated to produce a profit for its investors, unlike this one. It's free enterprise--vote with your money. I have used it for close to 20 years and have used Paypal. Have been frustrated by both of them several times, but for the most part, satisfied with the service provided. I have bought and sold many things on there. I find a lot of humor, such as a $39.99 used Lee mold selling for $113.00. Gotta laugh at myself, sometimes for some of the bonehead things I have done. Still, for what they are, I will continue to use them both. Just like paying consignment fee to a store owner, or a "finders" fee.

[Doc65]

Oh, and that wouldn't really apply when it is shipping based on a calculator that they automatically stick on listings, I might not have had such a problem with it if said calculator were at least CLOSE to having been accurate, it was off by almost 50% shipping cost over $20 more than their calculation(same shipper), then they come back wanting a cut?!?


I strongly suspect that one of the reasons eBay went to charging shipping was because unscrupulous sellers were trying to get around paying fees by doing Buy It Now sales where they were selling a $50 item, that would have cost $5 to ship, by listing the item for $5 with shipping for $50.

[Doc65]

As stated, didn't have a problem with making money, commission fees, it's when they cost due to inaccurate calculation that I didn't ask for, then also wanted a cut of the shipping that they did nothing for that I got riled up.


I have used Ecraze, aka evilbay, aka ebay, forever. It's a forum just like this one. It's purpose is to provide a market place for the world. However, it is incorporated to produce a profit for its investors, unlike this one. It's free enterprise--vote with your money. I have used it for close to 20 years and have used Paypal. Have been frustrated by both of them several times, but for the most part, satisfied with the service provided. I have bought and sold many things on there. I find a lot of humor, such as a $39.99 used Lee mold selling for $113.00. Gotta laugh at myself, sometimes for some of the bonehead things I have done. Still, for what they are, I will continue to use them both. Just like paying consignment fee to a store owner, or a "finders" fee.

[uscra112]

I almost always ask the seller if they will take a Postal Money order before I bid. Takes longer and more trouble but I would rather not get into PayPal at this time.

I did that too, for well over two years, before I knuckled under and opened a Paypal account. Will probably do it again when I see something in the "flea market" line from a small seller. What they will never get back is any business that I can do on Amazon or the like. Being in the sticks means that I buy stuff as common as packing tape online, because there's no such thing as a Staples within an hour's drive of me. Small machinist tools, books, auto parts, specialty fasteners, all kinds of stuff that I used to get by going to a store when I lived near a major city, I now buy online or do without. I'm on a first name basis with my UPS and FedEx drivers, as well as my postmaster. evilBay will never get that business back from me. And that's the business they say they want. (WSJ article a couple of years ago.) Arthritis or not, my fingers will punch a few more keys to use Amazon, McMaster-Carr, Barnes & Noble, Enco and NAPA. My grandkids will think I'm nuts, but I'm not going to put up with being pushed around by that lot. It's reminding me of when the railroad monopolies were squeezing midwestern farmers into bankruptcy in the late 1800s. No, I'm not quite THAT old, but unlike kids today I pick my own history books to read. evilBay has competition. As long as there is any, I'm going to take my business there.

BTW the "security" claims of Paypal are a crock. My CC issuer runs very good pattern recognition software that has in the last few years caught every false charge on my CC long before I did. And there have been a couple. Paypal does nothing by standing between my CC company and my sellers. Paypal is just a rent-seeking scheme to enhance the profits of evilBay, and as of now they are acting as an unregulated bank. Time to dry 'em up. Not that closing my account will make the slightest bit of difference to them, but it will to me.

/rant off

Phil

[Bill*]

I strongly suspect that one of the reasons eBay went to charging shipping was because unscrupulous sellers were trying to get around paying fees by doing Buy It Now sales where they were selling a $50 item, that would have cost $5 to ship, by listing the item for $5 with shipping for $50.

I think Alan is exactly right...I remember when that was "all the rage". Now that I think about it, I don't see that anymore!

[SlippShodd]

I recently closed my Bill Me Later account in PayPal. When they first offered it there was some incentive that made it attractive, so I signed up. I don't use Ebay or PayPal much anymore, but I did use it in December for a couple of purchases. There was money in the PP account and I figured the balance would come out of my checking account like normal. What I didn't realize was that even though I didn't specify it, the payment defaulted to BML and I got a notice the other day that I was behind on my payments. Totally my fault for not paying attention to the details. Paid the tab, including the $27 in late fees, called and had a "customer service" representative close the BML portion of the account so it could never happen again. BTW, she couldn't have given a $#!+ less about the mistake, made no apologetic noises or offers to try to retain my business. Just told me she'd closed it and said goodbye.
Like someone else said, part of life's tuition.

mike

[375RUGER]

they didn't do that to me till I hit $15large. I just got their stupid credit card. I only use it when I have money in the paypal and pay it with that money. No way am I going to link my bank account. If you don't want the CC, just open a local free checking account and leave the minimum in it. you can still pay with other means.

[45nut]

Paypal did the above to me as well,, what I saw with their demand of submission to their constantly changing rules was soon apparent after a bit of reflection: the mark of the beast. "Will not be able to buy or sell without bowing to the beast."
Mock me if you will but money has been at the root of the evil that infests us all and while we are continually being coerced into repeated assaults on what should be our private business the beast marches on demanding yet another submission and I will not assist the beast of the pit.
Paypal has stolen 164 dollars from me since they will not allow me to spend it or withdraw it via a check. Crooks plain and simple. If you give me a dollar to hold for you it is still your dollar and if I refuse to give it back then that is called theft.

[Bonz]

I hate using PayPal also but they are still the safest for both buyer and sellers

[Swamp Man]

I set them up with a bank account that I only use to get money out of PayPal and use my credit card to buy things. You don't have to pay by debit.
The account I use for paypal is separate and used just for paypal they can debit from the account. I can also use it as a CC for buying from new sellers I'm not sure about.

[uscra112]

I hate using PayPal also but they are still the safest for both buyer and sellers

Judging by the dozens of horror stories I've read over the years about buyers using Paypal to firk refunds out of sellers without returning the merchandise, and stories about Paypal sequestering sellers' entire bank accounts over some trivial $2 infraction of their incomprehensible rules, and-and-and, it sure doesn't seem to be very safe for sellers. I'm retired on SSI and a small pension, no fat nest egg in a 401k or an IRA, if Paypal glommed even $500 from me, bills would go unpaid, my credit standing would be ruined, and I would have zero ability to hire a lawyer to fight them. Those stories are the reason I stopped selling.

And as I posted above, as a CC user, I have had excellent support from my issuing bank, which perhaps amazingly is Citibank. Three times in two years somebody has gotten my number and started charging stuff to me, and all three times Citibank knew it before I did. I got a call, I disavowed the charges, they reversed them and set their bloodhounds on the trail. They do a better job of guarding me than LifeLock, another racket IMHO. Their people are available 24/7, they are unfailingly polite, speak perfect English, and fix the trouble in one phone call. My worst loss from those episodes was that I had to do without my card for a day or two while they FedEx'd me a new one, for which they didn't even charge me. Citcorp may be one of the prime malefactors in the ongoing banking crisis, but for their credit card operation I have nothing but praise. I'll take them over Paypal any day!

[uscra112]

@45Nut - I believe the whole Biblical phrase was "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil" and they sure have it bad. Secular law has a role to play in regulating predatory players in the marketplace, but since they contribute millions to the Obama camp, we won't see any of that any time soon.

[opos]

My wife is very active on Ebay with items related to collecting antique glassware...she uses Paypal all the time and has never had any issues...however..and it's a big however...the bank where she has her checking account advised her if she was going to do much with Paypal she should open a small account that is used for nothing but Paypal...they told her it is one of the leading causes of identity theft in the banking industry...more bank accounts are hacked from the Paypal environment than any other source they have...if they get into your main checking account and you have much money in there...it's probably going to be at risk from time to time...I have a very small account that I used for years to be my account for a small business I had...never closed it out...I keep several hundred dollars there as the "Paypal" account of record...if a purchase runs over the amount in the account they charge a credit card I have on file..again, very small limit and in a business name and only tied to the small business account.. Hard to escape the on line hackers.

[Nazgul]

My wife died of cancer 6 years ago. She had a paypal card and did small amounts on eBay. Called and tried to close the account, they said they would send me the paperwork. It arrived, 8 pages of it, wanted her SS info, death certificate, our marriage certificate, and a court order signed by judge giving me rights to her estate. All for $47 balance. Needless to say, I used the card at the store for $45, closed the bank account it was attached to and never looked back.

Don

[imashooter2]

I set them up with a bank account that I only use to get money out of PayPal and use my credit card to buy things. You don't have to pay by debit.


The account I use for paypal is separate and used just for paypal they can debit from the account. I can also use it as a CC for buying from new sellers I'm not sure about.

The account I used is the same. A free checking account with a 20 dollar bill in it. I've had the account for years now, never paid from it, only transferred PayPal funds into it which were then removed immediately. Some day PayPal may beat me out of that $20, but it's a chance I’m willing to take.

[uscra112]

....they told her it is one of the leading causes of identity theft in the banking industry...more bank accounts are hacked from the Paypal environment than any other source they have....

Hola! Always suspected that, but never had it confirmed!

[shooter93]

Happened to me at the 10k level...seems they lowered it. I cancelled the account....you can still pay pay then at other sites that use them by checking out as a Guest. For the little I buy at Ebay I contact th seller and they have all gladly taken a Money Order. If you cancel you cn open a new account in 6 months and run it till they the limit has been met.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Don't need it, don't trust it not to be hacked, don't use it.
I have to much drama to put up with their c(*&.
CF

[HangFireW8]

Hola! Always suspected that, but never had it confirmed!

The problem is not within paypal. Its the account holders themselves who get scam emails and log into fake paypal sites, thus giving away their pw. What the banks didn't tell you is they have the same problem.

[Alvarez Kelly]

The problem is not within paypal. Its the account holders themselves who get scam emails and log into fake paypal sites, thus giving away their pw. What the banks didn't tell you is they have the same problem.

I got one of those fake emails yesterday. PayPal had 2 L's in it, and there was some bad grammar. It wasn't hard to spot as a scam, but it might fool many people. The email instructed me to click on their hyperlink and log in... gee, I wonder what they were after...

[MtGun44]

I, too, keep a separate SMALL bank account linked to my Paypal account to limit
damage since I trust them VERY little.

Bill

[jcwit]

I use a prepaid debit card I orginally opened up so I would not need to run inside to pay for gas. I used it for years now also for PayPal with no problems, knock on wood, with orders from all over the world. Works like a charm. With all that said if that acct. has over $200 bucks in it thats a BUNCH!

[farmallcrew]

EBay, PayPal. 2 different companies. They work together to get things done.

You can buy gun related stuff using PayPal, just don't mention anything gun related. Common sense. I've made hundreds of transactions, using PayPal on and off eBay. No issues what so ever.

To much of a free thing may not be good. And having a PayPal account is the best free thing someone could have, just like a second bank account. I don't have the time to go to the PO for a MO so I really shy away from old schoolers that only want a MO. Sorry guys, when you work 6am-10pm 6 days a week. You can't get to the PO. Paypal is far easier for quick pays.

[uscra112]

EBay, PayPal. 2 different companies. They work together to get things done.

You can buy gun related stuff using PayPal, just don't mention anything gun related. Common sense. I've made hundreds of transactions, using PayPal on and off eBay. No issues what so ever.

To much of a free thing may not be good. And having a PayPal account is the best free thing someone could have, just like a second bank account. I don't have the time to go to the PO for a MO so I really shy away from old schoolers that only want a MO. Sorry guys, when you work 6am-10pm 6 days a week. You can't get to the PO. Paypal is far easier for quick pays.

evilBay owns Paypal. Their stated goal as reported in the WSJ when the purchase was finalized was "we want to replace cash in the economy".

You better not let them find out you're doing a gun-related transaction. That's the kind of thing they freeze your bank account for. With no recourse other than a lawsuit that will take years and cost you much more in lawyers' fees than you'll ever get back. You can't even open a class action against them now that they've prohibited it in their terms of service. (Yeah, I've been doing some research. They're far more rapacious than even I had imagined.)

Paypal is not free. They charge the seller a commission for the transaction. You pay that commission in the end. The consumer always pays.

"It's like a second bank account" ??? In a company that is not a bank, is not regulated like a bank, and doesn't have the bona fides of a bank, as anybody whose had money stolen by them will attest. Ask the founder of Cast Boolits.

Convenient? Yup. They're counting you trading security for convenience. What was it that Franklin said? Oh, yes - "Those who would trade liberty for temporary security deserve neither."

[HangFireW8]

evilBay owns Paypal. Their stated goal as reported in the WSJ when the purchase was finalized was "we want to replace cash in the economy".

You better not let them find out you're doing a gun-related transaction. That's the kind of thing they freeze your bank account for. With no recourse other than a lawsuit that will take years and cost you much more in lawyers' fees than you'll ever get back.

Silly talk. They can't freeze your bank account, only your paypal account, and as you said, paypal is not a bank.

HF

[uscra112]

Oh yes they can. And they have. It's been a sore point with sellers since the '90s.

[HARRYMPOPE]

they are a bank and need to be regulated.

[Nazgul]

Sorry guys, when you work 6am-10pm 6 days a week.

Working 16 hours a day for 6 days a week how do you have time for any ebay transactions?

Don

[2HighSpeed]

We stopped selling on eBay because of thier fees. For each lot of lead we paid $16.70 in fees and they took 9% of the shipping fee too which was wrong because I charged exact shipping no handling or ****. We where paying redicolous amounts in fees


QUOTE=Doc65;2102066]I am currently in a fight with EvilBAY about fees, they estimated shipping on an item I sold, and underestimated it by a fair amount, well the buyer paid their estimate, and I still shipped it simply eating the loss, then Evil came back and wanted fees, I dutifully paid the insertion fee(which wasn't supposed to happen as it was one of their Zero Insertion fees promotions), and their final value fee. What I refuse and contend is wrong is a fee on the shipping. Yes, they think that they are due a fee for the shipping of items, this is in the BEST case, a zero net gain for the buyer & seller, however in this case thanks to Evil's inaccurate calculation, it was actually a net LOSS to me.

A commission on selling something is one thing, you know that going in, but a commission on the EXPENSE of shipping an item, that is just wrong in my mind. They are pushing it hard, & I'm pushing back just as hard as I can, oh, and for the record the actual "fee" on this is like $4.50 I know it seems trivial, but it's the PRINCIPAL!!![/QUOTE]

[2HighSpeed]

Not all the time. PayPal charges me almost $4 in fees for what I sell here, I don't pass that to my buyers. I did recently raise prices because of propane And gas and whatnot, and will lower the price once those expenses go down but I will never passy PayPal fees onto my buyers. I do not think that is fair. I pay PayPal to hold my cash untill my buyers receive thier product and deem it satisfactory, if they do not like it, PayPal will Refund them. It's a extra imaurance for me and my buyer.


QUOTE=uscra112;2104412]evilBay owns Paypal. Their stated goal as reported in the WSJ when the purchase was finalized was "we want to replace cash in the economy".

You better not let them find out you're doing a gun-related transaction. That's the kind of thing they freeze your bank account for. With no recourse other than a lawsuit that will take years and cost you much more in lawyers' fees than you'll ever get back. You can't even open a class action against them now that they've prohibited it in their terms of service. (Yeah, I've been doing some research. They're far more rapacious than even I had imagined.)

Paypal is not free. They charge the seller a commission for the transaction. You pay that commission in the end. The consumer always pays.

"It's like a second bank account" ??? In a company that is not a bank, is not regulated like a bank, and doesn't have the bona fides of a bank, as anybody whose had money stolen by them will attest. Ask the founder of Cast Boolits.

Convenient? Yup. They're counting you trading security for convenience. What was it that Franklin said? Oh, yes - "Those who would trade liberty for temporary security deserve neither."[/QUOTE]

[uscra112]

they are a bank and need to be regulated.

OTOH we have regulation that's supposed to apply to Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citicorp, et.al. and none of it is being enforced. :roll:

[HangFireW8]

Oh yes they can. And they have. It's been a sore point with sellers since the '90s.

No, just the money involved in the transaction.

That's why I sweep money immediately from my paypal linked bank account, and have no overdraft.

I've been involved in several disputes. The one time they tried to "freeze" the money, it wasn't there, the credit card is really a debit the draws on the same nearly empty account... so I got epic email rants and threats from paypal for 3 months until they finally resolved the dispute... in my favor.

HF

[SciFiJim]

I set them up with a bank account that I only use to get money out of PayPal and use my credit card to buy things. You don't have to pay by debit.

This is exactly the way I have things set up. One of the local small town banks was offering free lifetime checking accounts, so I only keep $5 in the account to keep it open and then use it to collect PayPal payments. Purchases are on a separate credit card for PayPal.

[8mm]

Like others on this post, I received a notice from PayPal that I had XXX $ remaining in my "account" before I reached my maximum $10,000 transaction limit. PayPal's remedy has already been described on this post. I replied via email that I would not provide them with bank account information or apply for their credit card. I closed by stating that while PayPal is a convenient way of conducting on line purchases, it is not the only way. Furthermore since PayPal is simply a conduit using my credit card, there is absolutely no default risk to PayPal. If PayPal considers my continued business as a burden then I shall take it elsewhere.

Later I called their toll free service number about a phishing message sent to my email address. I spoke to a very pleasant young woman about the security issue. She took my information and asked if there were any other questions about PayPal. I described the situation about my $10,000 transaction limit. She replied that they are getting many complaints concerning that issue. She volunteered that closing my account and starting a new one might remedy the problem. I don't know if that is a viable solution, or if I am really interested in "playing games" with them to resolve a problem of their own making.

[rbertalotto]

I set up my bank account with PayPal a few years ago. Great way to buy stuff on the internet. Fast, Safe, Easy..........No big deal. It's an electronic world we live in. Your information is not secure no matter what you try to do to protect it.....

[uscra112]

This is exactly the way I have things set up. One of the local small town banks was offering free lifetime checking accounts, so I only keep $5 in the account to keep it open and then use it to collect PayPal payments. Purchases are on a separate credit card for PayPal.

Moot point as far as I'm concerned. Closed my evilBay account, trying to get the Paypal account closed too.

If my Amish neighbors can live without it, so can I.

[45nut]

called them today and immediately told them I revoke my consent for them to hold my money,, that seemed to unlock the hold ,, although they insisted on stealing another buck fifty to cut me a check as a parting shot.

[uscra112]

I guess that's a success, then. As far as it goes.

Wish there were a real competitor we could go to.