Suggestions requested for young hunter

[piwo]

OK.. Here’s the deal. I've volunteered to take hunting my 12 year old cousin whom has just passed his hunter safety course. His mom is applying for one of the Managed Youth Hunts here in MO, and if drawn I will be his sponsor and accompany him (only he hunts). His mom's boss is an avid hunter and has taken him to the range some and I will do likewise, but for the actual hunting rifle this presents a bit of a challenge. I have only .22 rimfires and .30 caliber centerfires. A full charge 30-06 with j-projectile would certainly be a bit much for a young shooter, so trying to think of a compromise. J-boolits require high velocities to perform, lead doesn't suffer from that requirement (if soft enough anyway).

I would imagine a relatively slow moving, but soft enough boolit in .30cal with a nice metplate would still be pretty decent deer medicine at shorter ranges (100 or less)? Thought if shot somewhat lighter loads the recoil would be more enjoyable for him to shoot provided it would still be up to the task. Any thoughts or suggestions? If such combination is deemed desirable, I'd certainly be interested in buying said boolits to load up for him provided I have what's necessary as I've never loaded cast before. If not I could ask around and see if anyone has a different caliber rifle I could borrow, like .243 win or something to that effect, but thought I might try to stay with what I actually own, if possible.

What sayeth you, o learned hunters.........

[45 2.1]

If you don't want to develop loads for cast for deer, the easy way is to get a box of 100 jacketed 170 gr. FN bullets meant for the 30-30 and load them to about 2300 fps in the 30-06. Guarenteed deer medicine for the young fella. Plenty to practise with and to hunt with.

[only1asterisk]

.45 2.1's recommendation is exactly what I would advise. Several relatives and friends have used this combination to good effect.

David

[1Shirt]

My grandaughter, at age 11, took her first deer, (big doe), in NW. Mo., with a 308, with loads just a little hotter than the one recommended. The advice given is excellent. Suggest you check the Hor. site for youth loads as well. Also recommend that you consider a bi-pod for the rifle and that the youngster shoot a minimum of 100 rounds befor he tries a shot on a deer. There is nothing better than practice, and would suggest also that you have him shoot at 50 and 100 yds, and that you limit his shots to a range within that bracket. Good Luck!
1Skirt!:coffee:

[yeahbub]

Hey, piwo!!

I empathize with your situation and have learned that if I accompany a young pilgrim and do my part he'll be doing the actual hunting the first few times out. I'll only be be "semi-hunting" which means I may get one if a second one presents a shot right after the neophyte takes his. I'ts a very satisfying thing to help another avoid all the self-taught falling-all-over-myself mistakes I made over the years while becoming a reasonably proficient hunter. I was a self-made hunter and a living example of unskilled labor. :)

As regards shooting cast boolits and developing a serviceable load in a .30 cal., it's hard to know how recoil sensitive said neophyte is, but I'll share a few nuggets and you can take what you like. My favorite .30 cal for shooting cast bullets is the .30-30. It has a long neck and was designed to be cast bullet friendly in the late 1800's and coveres the lube grooves very nicely. My best results has been with a 150gr Loverin gas check design (Lyman 311267? Don't quote me on that) which is a pointed bullet but I would bump them in the sizing die with a flat nose punch and the stop screw on the Lyman 450 to produce a flat nose of .230 dia. and a bullet of consistent length within a thousandth or so of one another which made them usable in a tubular mag.

In any rifle chamber there are a few rules of thumb I've learned for cast bullets:

1. The bullet should be supported in the back by the case neck AND in front by the chamber throat. Usually, this means .001 - .002 greater than groove dia., so if your groove dia is .308, size them .309 - .310. They have to be small enough to ENTER the throat's taper and center up in it, but be greater than groove dia. to provide a good gas seal when the trigger is pulled. This means seating them out enough to produce a just-noticeable resisitance when the action is almost closed on a bolt or lever action, or a thumb-press fit in single-shots like the Handi-Rifle or Thompson/Center.

2. Uniform case neck inside dia. 001 - .002 less than bullet dia. I use the Lee collet-type sizing die for this having modified the .311 decapping stem in a drill, reduced enough with emery cloth to produce this effect. You don't want the necks so tight that they inadvertantly size the bullet down somewhat. I finish with the Lyman M-die to open the end of the case neck enougn to start the bullet in the neck with my fingers and to prevent shaving any lead. Shaving lead is a sure accuracy wrecker. A consistent crimp is also important, so I usually use a run of freshly trimmed and deburred cases.

3. Sufficient lube - this is why I use a Lovering design. Loverins have lube grooves all the way up to the ogive. I've never had good results with designs that have an unlubricated bore riding nose above 1500 fps or so. I got leading on the lands and accuracy fell off. Other shooters like them and have no complaints. They're welcome to my share. What type of lube? I used a synthetic wax-and-teflon lube called MTL by Multi-Standard MS for jacketed velocities in the 2700 - 2800 fps range with lino or mono-type alloy bullets, but that's probably beyond your intentions. Lymans Moly is one I've been tempted to try, since, like teflon, it would be hard for outward force from obturation to pinch through the lube film at gentler velocities.

4. Uniformly cast bullets of an alloy of proper hardness for the intended velocity. I usually cast rifle bullets for general use of wheel weights which are then air cooled. For good accuracy, it's good to have enough oomph to sufficiently obturate the bullet to maintain the gas seal but not so great as to overcome the lube. All this hullabaloo one reads about having to have HAAARRRRD bullets is only true if you're really cracking them out there. Hardness matched to the velocity and lube strength sufficient to the task will do the job.

What's all that mean? A 150 gr. bullet out of a .30-30 at a consistent 1800 fps is a pussycat, accurate, pleasant to shoot and fully capable of making meat. A wide variety of propellants will achieve that from AA 5744 to 4064. My preference is AA 2015 which gives excellent load density for consistent pressures. My groups were .9 inch at 100 yds in a Win 94 and I have no qualms about going afield with that combination.

God bless on your efforts with the young feller. It's work like this that raises up the next generation of hunters and riflemen.

[Larry Gibson]

Kudo's to you sir!

I'll second or third 45 2.1's recommendation. Suggest 4895 powder as it works very well with such reduced loads. Also if the youngin' is not comfortable with the recoil of the 170's drop back to Speers 130 FP (intended for the 30-30 also) at 23-2400 fps. I started my 12 year old daughter off with that load in a .308 bolt gun at 2400 fps. She took 3 deer with it, one very nice mulie doe at a paced 200+/- yards with one shot through the heart. The other two were one shot each but under 100 yards. Nice bullet made for that velocity. Daughter weighed about 85 lbs and had no trouble with the recoil.

Larry Gibson

[Pepe Ray]

What do I mean?
I can remember all too well, my youth and the problems in learning to shoot. At the time I didn't know why I was so frustrated. All of my family had learned the same way that was being pushed onto me so the solution was still a secret.
Then one day, years after my initiation to shooting, Things began to fall into place. I still didn't realize why, but I liked it. Then one night I was reading a gun mag.( my oldest son was about 7) and the author was describing how to fit a firearm to a shooter of smaller stature when the LIGHT came on. FIT!!!
It doesn't matter if it's pistols, rifles or shotguns, it's GOT TO FIT.

For me economics was important. You don't cut the stock of a new Weatherby to fit a kid who's gonna use it for a couple of years. No, I've never owned a W'by and never will, but see my point?
For my family the answer was obvious. Pick up a used rifle or a second stock from a gun show, trim it for the kid. Replace with the original when he grows into it.
The point is, the youngster will never reach his optimum till the arm FITS.

Pepe Ray

[KYCaster]

My introduction to long guns was similar to Pepe Ray's. Everything at our house had recoil pads added so they would fit my 6'4" dad. Needless to say, being a small for age 10 YO, I had some serious issues learning to use them. Dad finally brought home a Western Auto single shot .22 with a fairly short LOP and I was in hog heaven.

When it came time to teach my son (also small for his age), a good friend gave us a rifle a local gunsmith had built for his son, an H&R Topper in 22 K Hornet. Next was a Fox Model B in 20 ga. with 20in. bbls. I cut a bunch off the stock and added a recoil pad to get it to the right length and we went rabbit hunting.

When Eric out grew them, the Topper was given to another friend whose son was at the right age and the Fox was sold at a gun show...when a guy and his grandson came along looking for the kid's first gun I sold it to them for half price and they went away very happy.

Now, 23 years after that Topper came our way, it's kinda nice to speculate about how many kids have used those two guns to start their shooting experience.

Sorry to hijack your thread, but the point is, good results will come much more quickly with a proper fitting gun. I think a Win. 94 trapper carbine in 30-30 with a spare butstock with an inch or so cut off of it would be just the thing to start a kid out deer hunting.

Enjoy
Jerry

[carpetman]

I have not tried .30 cal cast on deer but did try a .243 with cast and it did not work. The .243 with jacketed is great. I'd not expose the youngster to too much recoil. If he is of average size or better the .243 should be ok. I have built short butts that could be removed later when the youth outgrows them,but I haven't cut a stock down--I find a spare to cut down.

[versifier]

You might also consider Sierra 125gr HP's at 25-2600fps. Good performing accurate bullet for deer, designed to give the .30-30 an extra 50yds effective range, low recoil, too. I would try RE7, 3031, or 4895 in that order. I have never shot them from an -06, but they have done great in .30-30's and .308's. Sierra 125gr spitzers are a good choice also, same powders, and can go up to 2800 if the recoil isn't a problem. Get a couple of boxes of whichever shoots best so he can have plenty to practice with once you've worked up a good load.
.243, .250 Sav, .257 Roberts, and 6.5x55 are all great low recoiling rounds with jacketed bullets for deer hunting for beginners and the recoil sensitive. The "buy an extra stock to cut down" idea is a great one - I wish I had thought of it myself. :)

[piwo]

Geez guys, I'm humbled.. Great information and suggestions, and so many options that seem very feasible.

As for the youngster, he's a pretty thick kid: not fat by any means, but quite thick all over. His dad was a stocky, barrel chested sort and the boy is taking on the same form. As the sponsor on these hunts I am only an observer and helper, which makes things much easier: just need to supervise. I do have a Harris bipod I take to Wyoming that will fit rifles with a front swivel so that could be incorporated as well. The suggestion for the 170 grain bullet brought back a memory from some years ago. I lent my scoped rifle to a fella who didn't have one and I took my M1A with iron sights. Went to the range to zero the day before we hunted and the ONLY .308 WIN ammo at the local Meglo Mart was great big 180 grain round nose. I knew this was not a good idea since I didn't know the pressures for the M1A's gas system, but tried them. 5 shots at 50 yards iron sites, and 4 were touching!.. Killed a deer first shot deader then a doornail.

Big, slow moving round nose... I toyed with the idea of turning off the gas piston and having him try the M1A as a "strait pull" and shoot .308's, but think I'll try one of the 30-06 options since this rifle has a scope.

Drawing is 9-11-07, so I'll know soon enough if he gets drawn. I'm actually more excited about this then my hunting this season!

Thanks again, GREAT STUFF FELLA's......
8-)

[sundog]

Piwo, try the youth loads on Hodgdon. Includes 30-06 with 4895.

My grandson took a doe with a 30-30, 31141, and 16.0/4227. Don't need a barn burner to knock'em dead.

[highbrow]

When my son started hunting at age 12, I started him with a .308 single shot with 125gr speer sps over 21gr 2400. Very mild, and he got his first deer, a doe, at 100yds, with it. Only ran about 75 yds. Later he went to a 30-06 with a cut down stock, using a 150gr FN 30-30 bullet, over 34gr IMR 3031. Got his first WT buck with that load. Scored 140 green. Still his best.

If you try loading reduced loads, go with a slightly faster powder, such as 3031, for a load in the 2200-2400fps range, with 30-30 bullets. Works well and is tolerable for the youngsters. And this way, you only need to buy them one rifle and can adjust the loads as they get bigger.

My son, now 16, practices in the summer, using his .308 Savage with 165gr plain based cast lead over 8gr bullseye. Very mild and pleasant to shoot, and sometimes, if you stand behind the shooter, you can see the bullet streak to the target.

[Boz330]

I'm with the crowd using the 125 to 130gr bullets, plenty for deer even down loaded a bit. Let him practice with light recoiling loads and you can step it up a bit for the actual hunt. This is what a buddy of mine did with his daughter and she was very light weight for her age. She took a deer every year till she discovered boys.
The Handi Rifles aren't to expensive and can be had with a shortened stock. This might be an option and can be had in a lighter caliber as well.
Good Luck. There is nothing better than bringing a new hunter into the fold. I sure enjoyed teaching my godson and watching my buddy and his daughter, never could get her to field dress though. My buddy was so glad that she wanted to hunt that he never pushed her on it. I helped my godson on his first after that he was on his own, I just advised.

Bob

[dakotashooter2]

There are also some SSP (single shot pistol) bullets available in the 125-130 gr range. Developed for the lower velocities achieved in single shot handguns they should work well also.

[siamese4570]

piwo: check out the chuckhawks website under rifle reloading. he has a bunch of reduced loads. the 3006 load looks to be about 3030 velocities. should be ok for your young hunter. good luck!

siamese 4570

[corvette8n]

Federal just came out with some lite 30-06 reduced recoil loads, I don't have a 30-06 so I can't comment on these.

[piwo]

Hey Guys!
My young hunter did indeed get drawn for the hunt in late October :drinks: , so now "the heat is on"! :Fire:

I have plenty of '06 brass so a trip to Grafs in St. Charles might be in the offing to get a few samples of some of the suggestions made here. I'll probably try the big ole 170, then also the lighter 125-130's and see what I can brew up. I've got some 3031, 4350 and 4831 powders so hopefully be able to find something that gets er done comfortably for him.

Thanks for all the tip's and suggestions. This should be fun! 8-)

[TCLouis]

in front of a load of Blue Dot should do it with limited recoil. 150 NBT or equivalent may be more appropriate on MO deer.

Do a web search for Seafire Blue Dot loads and follow that to loads with 06. It is all over in Accurate Reloading's forums.

One ends up with a load nor unlike the Remington Managed Recoil load.

13.5 grains of 2400 behind a Soupcan gives me 1500 fps in my 1917 and a few hundred of those could get him used to the gun.

Oh, 30 cal 110 RNSP in front of 16.5 grains of BD in a 30-30 (loaded for a friends recoil sensitive son) went thru lungs of a small TN deer and the deer went 35 yards til it was down. The lil guy could shoot the load well and it did what was requested.
That load gives 2100 and change out of my 14" contender barrel.

All that being said, give him LOTs of practice with low recoil LOW noise rounds and he can handle the shot when game appears.

GOOD hearing protection is certainly a PLUS also

[rmb721]

In the 30 caliber centerfires, try a Sierra 125 gr. spitzer or a Speer 130 gr. hollow point as long as it is not a tube fed rifle. In a tube fed, try a Speer 130 gr. flat point. These will have a lot less recoil and still have plenty of power.

[piwo]

The rifle I actually own is chambered in 30-06, and is a Remington 700 action. Everything I've ever shot out of it is "stout", so going to the other extreme is foreign to me. But willing to try..................

[highbrow]

Hey Guys!
My young hunter did indeed get drawn for the hunt in late October :drinks: , so now "the heat is on"! :Fire:

I have plenty of '06 brass so a trip to Grafs in St. Charles might be in the offing to get a few samples of some of the suggestions made here. I'll probably try the big ole 170, then also the lighter 125-130's and see what I can brew up. I've got some 3031, 4350 and 4831 powders so hopefully be able to find something that gets er done comfortably for him.

Thanks for all the tip's and suggestions. This should be fun! 8-)

Do not go much below recommended starting loads with 4350 or 4831, as there have been reports in the past of a phenomenon called detonation with markedly reduced loads of slow burning powder. For reduced loads, use a slightly faster powder. 3031 will work nicely.

[TCLouis]

will likely be way to long for a 12 year old.
Any chance of a change in stocks to fit him, or another short LOP gun you can borrow?

[piwo]

will likely be way to long for a 12 year old.
Any chance of a change in stocks to fit him, or another short LOP gun you can borrow?
I have a Mosin Nagant 91/59 (short carbine) with a "scout scope" mounted, and it is a much smaller rifle but here's the rub: the trigger pull in 13.25 inches, whereas my Remington in the synthetic stock is only 13 inches so from a butt to trigger, the Remington is actually more manageable. The extra weight of the Remington would displace a more recoil, however, it is much longer. Perhaps the Harris Bipod out front can compensate for that. I'll try to work up a few loads for both. On my way over to Graf's for some poweder.....

[piwo]

will likely be way to long for a 12 year old.
Any chance of a change in stocks to fit him, or another short LOP gun you can borrow?
I have a Mosin Nagant 91/59 (short carbine) with a "scout scope" mounted, and it is a much smaller rifle but here's the rub: the trigger pull in 13.25 inches, whereas my Remington in the synthetic stock is only 13 inches so from a butt to trigger, the Remington is actually more manageable. The extra weight of the Remington would displace a more recoil; however, it is much longer. Perhaps the Harris Bipod out front can compensate for that. I'll try to work up a few loads for both. On my way over to Graf's for some powder...

[Topper]

H4895 Youth loads work.
Taken with a 270, here's the proof:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/Topper_1950/Tanners_1st.jpg

[medic44]

SKS works great 123 gr at 2365 fps, great guns available cheap, many come w/ short LOP w/o cutting them off. With a little work the are accurate and will take deer cleanly w/ light recoil.

[piwo]

Prior to leaving for Grafs for the aforementioned 4895 powder, I went downstairs into an old sierra manual and found a 168grain bullet loaded with 42 grains of 4064: rated at 2400 fps. I have 4064 so I loaded 8 of them to see what they might do. THEN, the next morning got an email from my cousin telling me that her boss took the young cousin to the range with several rifles, and he shot the .243 very well, and it went home with him. SOOOOO, I have an immediate solution, but I am still interested and going to try some of these recipes’s this fall. My youngest and I are going to take the Hunter Education course this weekend together and she too will need a “kinder, gentler" round to fire as well. :wink:

Thanks for the good info guys, this is a good thread for all who have children or those with spouses or significant others whom are slight of build. 8-) 8-)