"Bad Reloading Experience"

[jim4065]

My brother bought this Marlin 45-70 as a gift for his son-in-law last Christmas. He also got a Lee Loader and bought some powder, primers and bullets for him. I don't know what load was used - maybe Blue Dot? - but he doesn't remember which powder he bought. At any rate, another young man borrowed the Loader and made up a cartridge (or more?) and fired it in the gun. I'm hoping to get a sample cartridge to tear down, but I think maybe they got in two scoops of powder, then seated the bullet REALLY DEEP.

Shrapnel in the shooters arm - no other injuries. My brother drove from Corpus Christi to Arkansas to retrieve the pieces of the rifle. The bullet is still lodged in the barrel. The action picture (#2) is now my desktop background. Sometimes you gotta despair ...

[No_1]

Either that or lodged one in the barrel and then sent one in after it.
We may never know. This is the reason we come here and why others come here. We share information freely so this does not happen.

R.

[35remington]

Did the Reloading Genius offer to pay for the rifle he destroyed?

Lucky somebody wasn't hurt. I haven't seen a rifle shrapnelized like that in quite a while.

This fella needs to suggest that his son in law stay away from Boy Wonder.

[Uncle Grinch]

That's one of the worst I have ever seen!!

They say you learn by your mistakes, but this is a hell'va way to get smart!

[kodiak1]

If all the person got was minor shrapnel wounds they are one lucky mother.
Ken.

[TAWILDCATT]

I am amazed at the chances some people take with dangereus objects. like giving a child a loaded gun.so many on this site remind people to get familiar with the procedures and than this happens.thats the worst case I have ever seen.lucky not to have got killed.:coffee: :Fire: :coffee:

[1hole]

I strongly doubt that resulted from a double charge of THE PROPER POWDER! It is unlikely a double charge of a proper powder would not overflow the case. Bullseye has converted a few rifles to look like that tho, to some poor souls gunpowder is gunpowder so why not use this old can grandpa used in his handguns. Or shotgun.

It is said the best "education" is experience. It is rarely mentioned that the cost of tuition can be pretty high. Perhaps your brother won't loan any guns, or sharp tools to idiots anymore?

[imashooter2]

Wow! Glad no one's dead. An arm wound is small potatoes compared to what might have been.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Some years ago I allowed a young lady to fire off a cylinder full of reloaded .38 Specials in a S & W 586 6". :Fire: All went well until the 4th round. I sounded like a hand grenade and spit out a flame at least 5 feet long. :( This was at night at an outdoor venue (thank god!) and I quickly stopped the firing.:roll: Upon examination of the gun I could find nothing amiss. However the primer fell out into my hand when I opened the cylinder and I could not remove the empty until the next day. It would appear that Nimrod Kid the Reloader (me) may have either double or triple charged that particular round. :confused: I immediately quarantined all my reloads and set up some new rules. :mrgreen: I had been working with a Lee Loadmaster Progressive and I had been having issues with the priming. I junked it! :oops: I went back to a single stage press after I found other rounds that I had made with double charges. It took a week to break down over 1500 rounds that I had saved. I only found 2 more like that all done on the same evening. My records indicated that on that evening my spouse and I had a spat and I went into the garage in a bad frame of mind. I am fortunate that no one was hurt nor any property damaged due to my misfeasance. We have a responsibility here to make safe ammunition. There are not distractions in my reloading area at all. I now work with a Dillon 550 progressive and I have never had any type of mishap with it. Rifle rounds are made on a single stage press. 50 at a time in a loading block step by step and every case is examined with a strong overhead light to ensure no case is double loaded or left empty. I keep very careful records and keep only one container of powder on the bench at a time and if I cannot relax and have fun doing this then I will quit as my responsibility as a reloader is quite important and I will always exercise it very carefully.

[9.3X62AL]

A pretty succinct wake-up call for one and all. Glad to hear that no one was injured, but that rifle's condition creates some ugly pictures of "what could have been". I think it is good to share these every so often, just to keep us sharp and cautious.

[rugerdude]

I strongly doubt that resulted from a double charge of THE PROPER POWDER!......It is said the best "education" is experience. It is rarely mentioned that the cost of tuition can be pretty high. Perhaps your brother won't loan any guns, or sharp tools to idiots anymore?

When I first got interested in reloading, my cousin's husband told me he would show me how it was done. The very first thing he did was to lay out a loading manual and tell me "This is a hobby that can kill you or someone else if you are not careful. When you want to reload a shell or cartridge, you look it up in a manual and follow the recipe to the letter. Don't go getting creative or try to use a powder that isn't listed, because thats what gets you in trouble." Some of the best advice that I have ever been given. That and "don't lend anyone your guns or tools unless you are willing to lose them."

[Char-Gar]

Don't loan rifles! Don't loan reloading tools! Don't shoot anybody's elses reloads! There are just two many careless and/or incompetent people out there.

Most of them are somebody's friend or family member, and that makes saying no hard. Mind you, I said hard, but not impossible. If they are going to destroy firearms and hurt themselves, they should do it on their own dime and their own time.

It is hard on our souls to realize somebody got hurt, because we couldn't/wouldn't say no.

[jhalcott]

Crash, I had a similar thing with MY wife! Fortunately my OOPS never got off the reload bench. After/during(?) a spat I went to the reload bench and started to load some ammo. I reread the recipe as usual, poured a can of powder into the hopper, grabbed a box of .30 cal bullets and weighed a few test charges by dumping them into the scale pan.Every thing was correct. I grabbed a shell and dumped the NEXT weighed charge into the funnel. IT DID NOT FIT!!?? I rechecked the charge weight and the recipe! THEN I looked at the shell?? OOOH!! A charge for the 30-06 does NOT go into a 30-30 shell.

[pumpguy]

I caught myself the other day when I was loading for the Makarov. I load with about 2.8 grains of Red Dot. When I got low in the powder measure, I dumped in some more. When I got to going, I realized the charge looke different. I had topped off with 2400. I started unloading the cartriges until I got back to just Red Dot. About 10 rounds. I tried to salvage the 2400, but finally just decided to be safe and dump the whole thing. I don't know what those mixed loads would have done to my little blowback Mak, but I am glad I did not find out.

[Scrounger]

You wouldn't have blown up the gun with 2 or 3 grains of 2400. You might have left a bullet in the barrel so we certainly don't want to do that sort of thing...Now if you were loading 10 grains of 2400 and mistakenly dropped in 10 gr of Red Dot, that would really get your attention! People who reload should have a better understanding of powder and burning rates in order to make good decisions and to recognize bad data when you see it. People on the internet make mistakes sometimes in quoting loads, turning numbers around or mis-naming powders. There are mis-prints in the loading manuals even and if you don't have a full understanding of powder burning rates and case volumes, you can find trouble awfully easy.

[walltube]

Oh my word! Lucky, lucky young man. If he isn't now, that ought to make a Believer out of him.

I do hope the cause comes to light for all concerned.

[OBXPilgrim]

Not sure who originally said it, but:

"If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough"

[JeffinNZ]

On the up side the barrel will be very easy to clean. [smilie=1:

[No_1]

OK,
We have run the gamut from "good thing he is ok" to the funny jokes. We all agree to be thankful the injuries were not more serious. If we see it for what it is then we should realize that ignorance (as in lack of knowledge) as well as complacency can cause what has happened in this thread. We all make mistakes. Let's try to keep them on the small side by paying attention to what we are doing because even the most experienced loader can experience the "lack of attention to detail" that will lead to this or much worse.

Be safe my brothers,

R.

[PatMarlin]

My, my, what an ending for such a well made firearm. Thank god no one was really hurt bad.

[Jim]

I'm left handed. Those pics scare me.

[STP]

As WBAP`s Mark Davis sometimes says..."That makes my teeth itch."

[44woody]

about 3 years ago I was at the range when a pistol went up never did find out why but the man next to him was not so lucky he got pieces of that gun in his arm and neck and was taken to the hospital later found out that he was ok after they removed the pieces from him I have been reloading on a dillon 550b for about 9 years now my powder hopper has never seen powder in it and I have loaded many thousand of rounds in it I also have a rule in my house when I am reloading NO ONE IS ALOUD IN MY RELOADING ROOM that way my reloading has my full attention I know some will say that is stupid but my guns do not look like the picture above :castmine: 44Woody

[drinks]

In the first post, Jim said the bullet was still in the barrel, I would really like to know just how many bullets ARE in the barrel.
I really doubt a charge that would burst the barrel at the action would not expel the bullet from the barrel.
To me, it sounds as though a load had no or very little powder, perhaps just the primer force, it got a bullet out of the case, but just barely, and the next load was full power.
The pictures really look like an obstruction caused it.

[leftiye]

I'm right handed and it scares me!

[jonk]

When I first got interested in reloading, my cousin's husband told me he would show me how it was done. The very first thing he did was to lay out a loading manual and tell me "This is a hobby that can kill you or someone else if you are not careful. When you want to reload a shell or cartridge, you look it up in a manual and follow the recipe to the letter. Don't go getting creative or try to use a powder that isn't listed, because thats what gets you in trouble." Some of the best advice that I have ever been given. That and "don't lend anyone your guns or tools unless you are willing to lose them."What happens when you get into some real oddball calibers for which no load data exists? Try finding .41 Swiss Vetterli in a book. Or 8mm Kropatschek. Sometimes Cartridges of the World helps, but even those were often generated by calculating a smokeless equivalent to the original blackpowder charge.

A VERY experienced handloader knows enough to work up his own loads based on a reasonable start point is all I'm saying- it was great advice for the starting reloader, but unrealistic for the advanced collector.

[ovendoctor]

if your [tired,drunk,pissed off,day dreamming,lack of experance,working on somthing ealse]

by all means sit at your reloading bench and pick up your reloading manual and read

[JUST DONT TOUCH THE EQUIPMENT OR COMPONENTS]:groner:

glad no one got badly hurt

:castmine:

[Marlin Junky]

Looks like ol' Bob Dunlap is right. It's almost impossible for the bolt to come out of a 336 action due to an overload.

MJ

[jim4065]

I had him measure the barrel obstruction - 4" long. The (very) few samples of 45-70 bullets that I have are averaging about 8/10ths of an inch. Does that mean 5 bullets in the bore? He doesn't want to drive them out with a rod - but I can't imagine why not. Even if it was almost new, what difference does it make now? I think he'll come around. :roll:

[jim4065]

My brother finally got around to pounding out that "4 inch" obstruction. This jacket is what came out. My guess is that the nose hit the base of a bullet which had the bore plugged - either a squib or maybe no powder? - and the rear core kept marching down the barrel, pushing the front bullet ahead of it. Sure would like to tear down some of those loads.

[SharpsShooter]

Jim

Thanks for the update. Question for you.......how long was that section of jacket and also, is there a lead smear on the base of it ??


SS

[jim4065]

Jacket is "about 1" long". Don't know about a lead smear on the base, but I'll ask him.

How could there be lead on the outside of the base? Unless he had a lead tipped rod to drive the jacket out of the bore? He was looking for a clue as to who made the bullet, but I don't see what difference it makes. Surely the manufacturer was not at fault?

Reminds me of my sisters saying "The plot thickens - Eggs come from chickens."

[spurrit]

I'd be willing to bet that the bullet manufacturer would GLADLY send you a new rifle, some product, and a gag order. This is looking an awful lot like a product liability thing. Bonded bullets sound kinda cheap now, huh? Glad everything's alright.

Couldn't help but notice that there are still big enough pieces to beat the kid with, should you see him near your loading stuff or guns again.

[jim4065]

Reckon I'm being stupid again but where's the bullet mfg liable? To say he's liable, you've got to find a bullet that was behind this jacket in the barrel, i.e. closer to the chamber. So far as I know, there's no such bullet. This jacket was left behind by a collision which took place in front of it, not behind.

Above and beyond all of that, where's the evidence? It was pounded out of the barrel by someone who had something to gain by this - if he wanted a new gun, which I doubt. Unless he's changed, my brother wouldn't want to be party to a fraudulent lawsuit.

Lastly, who made the ammunition? The person who was injured. Justice is done.

[spurrit]

But the bullet failed. I'm sure your buddy didn't hit it hard enough to knock the lead out of it.

[Dale53]

ONe of the problems with trying to pass on information is that each and every one of us "processes" information a little differently. What "Jack" thinks is clear may be NOT be clear to "Jill".

I try, whether writing on a Forum or writing an article for a magazine to make it CLEAR to most anyone who reads it. Mostly I am successful, but I suspect there are times, even with the best of intentions, that I am not so clear after all.

However, most of us can improve our "transmission" of information and we should always be trying to improve.

On the other hand, I have learned most of what I know, starting when I was a toddler, from other people. It helps to practice "listening". Much of my "Listening" came from books. I am an inveterate reader (I read a lot:-D) and I read from many sources. It is amazing what you can pick up from Newbies. Don't discount their questions. Often, answering a question from someone new to the game, started a thought process on my part that ended up with ME learning something new. WE ARE NEVER SO SMART THAT WE CAN'T LEARN FROM OTHERS...

There are some things that other people do to keep them out of trouble that they have shared with me and I have "borrowed" that tip or tips and incorporated into the "process" of reloading.

Some of those are:
1 - Only have ONE container of powder on the reloading bench when you are reloading. NEVER more than one.

2- Only have ONE brand of primers on the bench when reloading. NEVER more than one.

3- Not only WATCH your reloading process but LISTEN to your reloading press when working. FEEL your reloading press when working. (WATCH to keep from doing something incorrect. LISTEN for a change in the mechanical noises - you will pick up on something not right that you missed when you were "Watching". FEEL more effort as you crush a case mouth, etc). At any rate, you now get the idea. That ol' watchword "PAY ATTENTION" surely applies to reloading and we don't need ANY distractions to get us into problems.

Reloading is many, many times safer than driving to the store, but we MUST be ever watchful...

The sermon is over, now let us go forward and multiply (our reloads, our reloads, you dummy):-D:-D:-D

Dale53

[Linstrum]

WOW! Makes Jumptrap's Mosin-Nagant strength test look tame!

Until the photos were posted, one of the potential causes that crossed my mind was that the person who reloaded the .45-70 cartridge had previously used only ffg and out of ignorance had filled the case to the same point with Blue Dot as with black powder. That was THE main reason why smokeles powder was not sold to the public at first since the layman shooter 110 years ago often would not follow instructions to reload by weight because the amount of smokeless called for looked far too small. Folks back then were used to reloading with black powder and simply ignored the instructions and used the same VOLUME of smokeless powder as black powder. Unique and Bullseye have been around since 1899 and back then can you imagine someone with a vintage Trapdoor filling a .45-70 cartridge with a full case of Bullseye? OUCH! (or worse)

[LiquidLead]

I hope everyone will read Dale53's post carefully. I read an enormous amount also. I am finding more and more posts on various forums, that are very difficult to follow. Especially some of the links to mass media publications.

My biggest complaint though, is the long post that has 15-30 or more continuous lines of print with no spacing between lines. That drives me nuts! It is hard to keep track of where you are. Hit the [ENTER] key at least once ever 5 or 6 lines, even if it is not appropriate for a paragraph break, PLEASE.

Another thing, most of the commercial websites, have pages set up, so that you cannot use your browser, to make the print larger. My eyes are getting to old for that.

Thanks Dale for an enlightening and well written post.

Mike

[Dale53]

LiquidLead;
Thanks for the kind words.

Dale53

[PatMarlin]

My biggest complaint though, is the long post that has 15-30 or more continuous lines of print with no spacing between lines. That drives me nuts! It is hard to keep track of where you are. Hit the [ENTER] key at least once ever 5 or 6 lines, even if it is not appropriate for a paragraph break, PLEASE.

Mike

OK- I second that emotion. The continous paragrah from hell really is hard to read in posts.. :roll:

The other thing that's difficult to read sometimes are posts from the upper classes of cast boolit knowledge like from BassAckward John, or Felix. I have a hard time trying to figure exactly their point by their writing styles sometimes... and when those guys write, I pay attention. Veral smith writes like that too. All the brainy types.. :mrgreen:

Mike- I run Safari on my Mac, and it has a handy font reduce or enlarge button right on the address bar. I think the PC version does too.

[lurch]

Other my disagree, but I like Firefox. Sometimes it renders the print too small too, but that's generally easy to fix with:

<CTRL>+ Make the print bigger
<CRTL>- Make the print smaller
<CTRL>0 Jump back to default size print

Other nice things available for it as extensions:

Adblock Plus
RIP (remove it permanently)
NoScript
Flashblock

These are very useful for nuking those annoying flashing, jumping, scream-at-you-to-click nuisance ads that are everywhere.

[lar45]

Other my disagree, but I like Firefox. Sometimes it renders the print too small too, but that's generally easy to fix with:

<CTRL>+ Make the print bigger
<CRTL>- Make the print smaller
<CTRL>0 Jump back to default size print


Very handy info.
I tried it with Internet Explorer. The only difference was
<CTRL>* Jump back to default size print.

I just read this thread, but I'm wondering if the Son-in-Law's friend has been pressed to pay for the gun?
If I read the initial post correctly, the friend borrowed the gun and loader, loaded and fired the reloads which resulted in the blowup?
If so, then I say he needs to pay for the gun.

Another addition to the don't load anything unless you can afford to loose it.
Don't borrow anything unless you're prepared to replace it if something goes wrong.

I say take him to small claims court for the gun and any other expenses related to the blowup.

Just my 2 cents.

[spurrit]

I still believe in beating him with what's left of the gun.