lyman 311-407

[bearjw]

Hello all. This is my first time posting here I believe. I have been lurking for a while, and have been able to pick up some good info. So I thought I may be able to get some help here. I have a Lyman 311-407 mould, and would like to use the bullets in my Ruger #1 .308 win. I have already asked a couple of trusted friends for advice, but thought that I may be able to glean a few more nuggets of wisdom by posting my query here. I have never used cast bullets in high powered rifles before. I would like some suggestions on lubes. I also want to know how much lube is necessary. Because of the chamber on my rifle, I will have to seat these bullets pretty deep into the case. So much so, that the bottom three grooves will be past the case neck, that is including the groove that is created by the gas check. I assume that because I am useing a crimp on check that they will not cause me problems by being seated past the case neck. After a discussion with a friend, it was determined that leaving lube in these bottom three grooves could contaminate the powder, so I am intending to remove the lube from those grooves. Also there will be three grooves left out of the case neck. I assume that the lube will need to be removed from them so as not to collect dust etc. That leaves three grooves in the case neck that are lubed. Is that enough lube? Should this bullet be seated to touch the lands, or just off of them? Is it necessary to crimp these bullets? Do I need to bell the case mouth for seating if I am not seeing any evidence of the bullets being shaved? I guess I really need someone to walk me through this process, or maybe point me towards some literature that is specific about using cast bullets in high powered rifles. Thanks for any and all help.

J.W.

[chunkum]

Is that bullet a Loverin type of design?
c.

[bearjw]

Yes it is a loverin type bullet. I will attempt to post a pic.

[leftiye]

You might dip lube them in a hard dry wax like Carnauba, or better still (believe it or not) Castor wax. Would not adhere to powder or collect dirt if seated sticking out of the case or down inside the case. If you didn't get the ctgs. dangerously hot (temp.) that is. Heat the wax AND the boolits so as to get a thin coating, dip and let cool sitting on their bases. First size the boolits (use soapy water, or Hornady spray case lube to size with, clean off afterwards) and if you are hardening them heat treat after sizing, and THEN dip lube them, then apply regular lube and checks in a die larger than the boolit.

A better alternative might be to go to a bore riding design so the lube grooves are all in the neck, and not below it, and the boolit seats out into the bore. Dip lubing would still be a good idea with that design as it lubes the bore riding portion of the boolit. There is some debate as to whether excess lube on the noses is detrimental, and I wouldn't apply it too thick (very thin). Another plus is the extra case capacity this would provide (lower pressures maybe and/or higher velocities.

[Newtire]

For what it's worth, I have used that boolit alot from a group-buy we did a few years back. I lubed it with Lar's Red Carnauba and also with Felix-Lube (a lube alot of us have made designed by World reknowned bullet caster Felix here on this board). I seated it below the case neck in a .30-30 Ackley and it seems to work just great. Make sure the gas check is a crimp-on design and you should have no trouble.

In the .30-06, I loaded that thing with 16 grains of 2400 and also with 13 grains of Unique for a nice plinker. I also used a load of 29 grains of H4895 which roared a little more. It is the same boolit as the Lyman 311467 with the nose flattened-a Loverin design. One of the best molds I have for 30-30. That one is one to hold on to.

[MT Gianni]

I also use it in an '06 with the lube grooves below the neck. I don't load them and leave them in hot summer weather before I shoot them but that is the only precaution I take. What would you like to do with it? Punch paper? shoot whitetails? Groundhogs? push it to 2600 fps and it will need a lot of lube. If you let it lope along at 1600 fps it will need only 2-3 grooves filled. If you are sizing with a Lyman, RCBS or Star sizer try loading some up with lube below the neck, if you are pan lubing try wiping lube with your finger on 3 of the middle grooves and seating them in the neck. Gianni

[bearjw]

Thanks guys

MT Gianni,
I want to hunt whitetails with this bullet. I am only concerned with having enough velocity for the bullet to be accurate, weather that be 1600 fps or 2500. As long as the bullets go where they are supposed to consistently. I am sizing with a lyman 450, and am using javalina lube, which is pretty gooey. That's why I was concerned about contaminating the powder.

[MT Gianni]

1600-200 fps should work great for whitetail. Let us know how they shoot. Gianni

[Char-Gar]

There are folks who have concerns about cast bullets that dangle their feet into the boiler room. Some folks worry about the hot gases attacking the sides of the bullet, and others worry about contaminating the power with the bullet lubricant.

Most of these concerns do no prove out to be of much concern. However, in "theory" it is best to have the bullet contained in the necks.

IMHO RCBS 165 SIL is the primo bullet for the .308 round. It keep the bullet in the case neck and has proved to be very accurate in all three of my .308s

311407 is a very popular and sought after mold. There will always be somebody on this board (like me) would be willing to swap you straight up for just about any current production mold you wanted.

[bearjw]

Chargar,
You make the 311-407 sound too good to swap it for anything.:-D I appreciate the offer anyhow. I think I'll be able to get satisfactory results out of this project. It's just a matter of getting some experience, being persistent, and working the bugs out. I might look into one of those RCBS moulds in the future though, thanks for the suggestion. As a friend once said to me, "It's best to develop a ney toy to its full potential before moving to something else."

Thanks again,
J.W.

[bearjw]

Ok, I have worked up to 21 grns of 2400. Win cases, and win LR primers. Seating depth is just touching the lands. Bullets are sized to .309". Lube in all grooves except what is protruding from the case. No crimp. I do not have an expander, but am using a VLD chamfer, and have seen no evidence of shaving. I have been shooting at 50 yds, and so far the best group is 2" with the 20 grn. charge of 2400. No leading yet. I have loaded five each at 22 grns., 23 grns., and 24 grns. of 2400. 24 grns. is the max charge listed in my book. I will shoot them tomorrow, and am hoping one of them will produce a 1" group at 50 yds. If not, I plan to move on to IMR 4198. I also have an "M" die ordered and on the way. Well, that's my progress up to this point. Thanks for the pointers.

J.W.

[Newtire]

Hi again bearjw,

I am thinking that you might want to knock back to around 15-17 gr. 2400 in that .308. Once you get much higher than that, your bullet might not handle that kind of pressure. Oh well, try it and find out. The lighter 2400 loads are dead accurate in anything I shoot them in-very useful cast powder! I don't have a .308 since I keep winding up with more .30-06's somehow! 4198 is another useful powder. Usually, I have had the best luck with some load in between the minimum & the maximum using the "mainstream" data you get out of the manuals.

As far as the RCBS 165 sil goes-about the best in my '06 also. Hard to beat that thing. I see the Saeco bore riding designs out there and since I have one in .243 that is a good one, I wonder about that. It looks to be a repeat of the RCBS 165 sil but who's to say until they try it. Because of folks like us, the mold manufacturer's kids will get to attend nice schools and that's as it should be.

[Bass Ackward]

I have loaded five each at 22 grns., 23 grns., and 24 grns. of 2400. 24 grns. is the max charge listed in my book. I will shoot them tomorrow, and am hoping one of them will produce a 1" group at 50 yds. If not, I plan to move on to IMR 4198. I also have an "M" die ordered and on the way. Well, that's my progress up to this point. Thanks for the pointers.J.W.


Ol J. W.,

Boy iffin you get this excited from 2400, I can't wait until you work your way to 4831. :grin:

[bearjw]

Ok, the best 2400 got me was a 1.25" group at 50 yds. I haven't tried it at 100 yds yet. The next powder I had intended to try was IMR 4198. I goofed up though, and poured IMR 4831 into my powder dispenser. So, since I had a load in my manual for it as well, I loaded a few with it. I loaded up 5 each of 38 grns, 39 grns, and 40 grns, which is the max in the book. The 38 grn load gave me a group that was right at an inch at 50 yds. The 39 grn charge gave me a group that was just over a half inch at 50 yds, and the 40 grn charge opened up to a little over an inch. I then loaded up some more with 39 grn charges, and moved the target out to 100 yds. At that distance the four shot group opened up to about 5 inches. Now I'm scratching my head. I just wonder what happened between the 50 and 100 yd mark. :confused: The bullets weren't keyholeing or anything. I'd like to be able to get 2" groups at 100 yds. Any suggestions? I still have to shoot the 2400 load at 100 yds, and I am definitely going to try the 4198.