Loading for my smith 640 snub is giving me fits!!

[mitchrm]

Has anybody worked up a good load for a smith 640 snub? I have been getting poor accuracy with mine. Cant keep 5 shots on paper at 15 yards. Last year i had a load that shot about a 3 inch group at 20 yards. (i think it was blue dot 9.6g under a 158g jacketed) Went home and loaded up a box of 50. Then they all shot like ****, the whole box. Maybe it was luck? I dont think so. I got a load now of 6.6g unique under a 120g lead round nose that will stay on paper. Im going to try this load again over a chrony. I can shoot my dads 642 just fine. I do not want to blame it on my gun.... yet.

Any suggestions?

[williamwaco]

Not enough info.

What exactly is the load that is giving you trouble?
.

[MtGun44]

5.0 Unique under a .358 Lyman 358429 HP lubed with NRA 50-50 was the breakthru in
my 342. Up until then everything shot like CR** and was nowhere near the sights. I
tried all the hotshot factory $1+ per round self defense stuff and a few regular loads, too.

Bill

[kir_kenix]

Try a 148gr WC or 158gr over a starting load of BE. I've never, ever seen a 38 spc that won't shoot well with a properly sized 148gr wc or 158gr swc and a light to moderate loade of BE. May not be the cleanest load, may not be the fastest load, but it will shoot straight.

[kir_kenix]

Just remembered that the 640 is a .357. I'd be willing to bet that the above load works anyway. I'd try them first in 357 mag brass, just bump up the loads as required.

[Recluse]

Quite honestly, I think you're asking too much of the gun as a self-defense firearm at the distance you are preferring to shoot (20 yards).

I don't let the wife or daughter shoot beyond 25 FEET with the j-frame Smiths. Your chances of completely missing your target under the duress of the situation become very high.

So, the first thing I would do would be to manage my expectations for the firearm and the purposes I chose to buy it and carry it.

Then, as was suggested, start with a standard 148 WC load (2.7 grains of Bullseye) and establish whether the issue is with you or the firearm.

Are you shooting on a vice or rest, or are you shooting offhand?

If you find that the Bullseye load (WCs) are consistent, then get some .358SWC boolits (are you casting or buying commercial cast?) and start working with W231 or AA#5 (my personal favorite). I've found that 5.5 gr of AA#5 pushing a .358SWC gives me extreme, consistent accuracy in each .38/.357 wheelgun we own.

:coffee:

[fcvan]

+1 on what Recluse said. Shooting the smaller guns takes some practice, especially with certain loads. Add the stress of a defensive situation and hit probability starts fading. The loads mentioned by Recluse are great, either the SWC or the WC. I had a buddy who needed his J-frame and he carried factory wad cutters. At defensive ranges it works fine and it saved his life. The only drawback is speed loaders are harder to use with wad cutters and so the SWC works better when reloading under stress.

For years, I shot a 125 RN through my J-frame as it was my standard practice boolit and worked great with speed loaders. Of late, I have been shooting a 158 grain RF which also works well with speed loaders. As far as accuracy goes, the boolit leaves the bore straight, more or less, but the weapon has a smaller grip and shorter sight radius. With practice, I was consistently hitting 6" steel plates out to 65 yards with the J-frame. Still, the weapon was intended for use at shorter ranges and so most practice was within 25-30 feet. Today, I know the gun can still shoot farther but the eyesight isn't what it used to be.

[243winxb]

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/SWAccuracy.jpg My standard for 357 mag is Alliant 2400-13gr with a 158 gr hard cast lswc. Or load some 38 special with 3 grs of Bullsey using the same bullet.

[Beau Cassidy]

That 6.6 Gr. Unique load sounds pretty smokin'. I hope it is in a .357 case. Even then it sounds a little on the warm side.

[HATCH]

I would try 5.5 unique with a 158 swc 357 mag
That is a good load that will not beat you up so bad.

[mitchrm]

Thank for the info. The I will decrease the load with unique some more until I get what im looking for, as it seems the lighter the better. Im interested in the 5.5g to work down to.

I have been shooting from a rest, but my best group so far was without a rest.
Will try out the bullseye load too.

I like the 120 round nose for plinkers. When in get them the way i like them, i will go on to the 158g swcs.

I cast my own boolits out of water quenched ww and they are about 20-21 hardness.

I understand the snubbie is a self defense gun but why not have one that shoots good!

[pipehand]

Just remembered that the 640 is a .357. I'd be willing to bet that the above load works anyway. I'd try them first in 357 mag brass, just bump up the loads as required.

Depends. My 640 is 38 SPL +P+, not 357. The first one's from around 1990 or so were that way. Even with full stainless construction, the +P 158 grain loads are a puppymother. I have never shot, nor do I intend to shoot, a J frame with true 357 loads. Even in my full sized 357's, my favorite load is 5.5 grains of Unique and a cast 158 grain SWC.

[PepperBuddha]

640-1 is .357

[Recluse]

I cast my own boolits out of water quenched ww and they are about 20-21 hardness.

Holy cow! That's a hard boolit for nothing more than water-dropped wws. That could be a LARGE part of your problem right there. Harder is not always better, and in fact, rarely is.


I understand the snubbie is a self defense gun but why not have one that shoots good!

Well hell, then. Why stop at 20 yards? Let's work up a load that will shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards.

It's called common sense and experience and you need lots more of both.

:coffee:

[DLCTEX]

Lee 125 gr. RN over 4.5 gr. 231 or 3.5 BE in 38 Spc. is an accuracy load in our 38's. I don't do WC, mostly because of the way they look.

[Recluse]

Lee 125 gr. RN over 4.5 gr. 231 or 3.5 BE in 38 Spc. is an accuracy load in our 38's. I don't do WC, mostly because of the way they look.

Too much wind up in the panhandle to shoot wadcutters. You need some serious spire-point cruise missile to even begin negating the normal 45kt gusting to 90kt breezes that blow up there on your average day. :)

My daddy and I used to shoot INTO the wind and place our targets on various hangman's gallows so that we'd be shooting at an upwards angle. The advantage to this was that once we got the perfect distance down, we could fire our boolits and as they fought the wind, they'd just barely *ding* the target before the "breeze" would hurtle them back at us.

Used to take the Amarillo High and Tascosa High baseball tryouts with us with their fielder's mitts to catch the inbounds.

About all we had to do was relube those boolits, reload and shoot 'em again.

You yankees think I'm kidding, but Dale knows exactly what I'm talking about.

:coffee:

[kir_kenix]

Common misconception is that snubbies won't shoot well. I'd be willing to be that the incentric accuracy from a 2" snubbie, 38 spc or otherwise, is likely better then most longer barreled revolvers, and deffinetly most semi-auto pistols. The problem is shooting them that way in reality. The short sight radius, wickid recoil (38 spc +p and .357), and extremely small grips make them difficult to shoot.

I'm not a great pistolero by any means, but I routinely shoot my snubbies at 25 yds. It's a great practice for trigger control, follow through, and calling your shots. If I do my part, I can keep them all in the kill zone of a standard IPSC target if I take my time. 4" clay pigeons and soda cans are in trouble if I shoot single action, but they arn't automatic by any means. 2.7-3 gr of BE with a well designed WC or SWC of the correct size and hardness shoot pretty well in virtually all .38 spc that are in correct working order.

[MtGun44]

Once I found the right load, the gun shoots into 2" at 15 yds, about as far as I practice with it. It
will do about 2.5 - 3" at 25 when I work at it. SOFT 358429 HP (like 8 BHN) over 5.0 Unique, gun
is .38 Spl and weighs about 10 oz, IIRC. Personally, I would take a pass on an offer to shoot
a full power .357 Mag in the aluminum/titanium guns. Hot .38 Spl 158s are interesting enough for
me and I have a 329.

Bill

[shotstring]

What is the fascination with Unique? I liked Unique in 45 long colt loadings, but for 38 or 38 +p I always preferred win 231. That and Bullseye always gave me accurate 38 loads. If I went up to 357 power, I switched to 296 powder for full power loads. For me Unique seemed to be neither fish nor fowl - too slow for good standard loads and not slow enough for good magnum loads. At least in 38 cal.

[Bigslug]

We had a range staff member that would routinely keep 5 out of 5 on a reduced silhouette at 50 yards from a DAO J-frame simply to show people what proper technique could accomplish. They're HARDER to shoot well than something with a lighter trigger and longer sight radius, but don't let anyone tell you the GUNS aren't capable.

If your 640 is a .357, I'd probably stick to .357 brass to start the bullet closer to the forcing cone.

Taking a page from my competition rifle experience, I would suggest finding a loading manual (i.e. Nosler) that gives you load density figures. Generally, the powder that gives you the velocity you want while filling the case the most completely will give you the most consistent ignition, burn, and best accuracy. When dealing with the short sight radius and squirrely recoil of such little guns, making the touch-off as consistent as possible would be of paramount importance to shrinking group size.

I would also quit water-quenching that alloy. 20 BHN is hard stuff even by the standard of the crew-served monster-magnums. Snubbies will be perfectly happy with stuff in the 10-14 range.

[Piedmont]

I understand the snubbie is a self defense gun but why not have one that shoots good!

Exactly. I do the same thing. If you are out popping tin cans with a crappy load and you miss you don't know if it was bad shooting or a crappy load. In fact, you can't do good shooting with a crappy load, because the gun/ammo combination won't allow it.

Don't listen to naysayers they probably can't hit anything with a snubby.

[MtGun44]

"What's the fasciation with Unique?" LOL!

Because all the other powders I tried sucked, including Clays, Titegroup, 231 and Red Dot.

Bill

[mitchrm]

As i posted before thanks for the help, will try some air cooled ww too. i know my wc ww are hard, but shoot good in my other loads and different guns with no problems.

Thanks recluse, your first post was very helpful. But the second one??? Just sayin...

[Recluse]

Don't listen to naysayers they probably can't hit anything with a snubby.

During my federal puke days, I performed five consecutive qualifying scores of a perfect (nominal) 300 score with my 2 1/2" K-frame Model 19 which included a mandatory five head shots at 25 yards in less than eight seconds, one of which was with strong hand, the other of which was with weak hand and in low light conditions.

It was a backup gun and secondary gun for almost the entire duration I chased bad guys and it saved my life once.

I still have that K-frame, still carry it and still have zero problem trusting my life to it.

So that's me, just another naysayer. :rolleyes:

I've also seen far more j-frame "Chiefs" and "Detective Specials" that had abysmal accuracy records and adding the stress of an actual gunfight, it makes for a bad combination and I don't want to see a new member's expectations for his firearm exaggerated simply because "someone else has done it or can do it."

I love j-frame firearms, but I realize them for what they are and on average what their capabilities are. I fly a Cessna and have for many years. Every once in a while, I can catch a tailwind that is really howling, and all of a sudden, this 172 is giving me RV8 performance because I know how to work the plane when the conditions all line up.

But no way in hades will I ever flight plan for "all the conditions being lined up." If I need to be somewhere fast and I know I need to be there fast, then the RV gets cranked up.

I know--firsthand and the hard way--exactly what a snub-nose handgun will do. But I also know that I refuse to bet my *** to what I can accomplish on a closed range under controlled situations with zero stress involved.

So to the original question, my advice or suggestions would be:

• drastically reduce the hardness of those boolits. You don't have much time for obturation in a snub-nose, so anything I could do to help that factor out, I'd be all over it.

• if the firearm takes .357 Magnums, I fully agree with using magnum cases in order to get the boolit that much more forward in the cylinder.

• I'd start with my best known load at best maximum distance, make some "variables" and take copious notes seeing what the changes result in, including different powders, how much crimping you do, taper/roll-crimping, etc etc.

• Once you get a sweet spot load for, say 15 yards, make sure you can duplicate it several times over.

• Have PLENTY of your "known good loads" on hand as control loads, then move the target further away. Adjust loads accordingly for what you think is (or is not) happening.

• Be absolutely objective and honest. If your firearm flats runs out of consistent accurate range, accept it and note it. I have a 9mm that I'd never trust beyond 25 yards no matter what. Period. But I'll bet the farm on it at ranges 20 yards and closer.

You'll get where you're trying to get, just be patient.

:coffee:

[mitchrm]

thanks for the reply and getting back on track with the question. That is exactly what im trying to do! Couldn't put it any better. I started my load (.357) at a published starting load and worked up. noticing that groups were getting worse. Then I worked lower and noticed grouping getting better. I was concerned about how much lower than the starting load i could go. I was just curious to see what was working for other people. I think i got the answer i was looking for.

I know it is a close range self defense gun. Every post gets into this and i didnt want this one to. Just trying to get a good round to practice and play with.

thanks everybody
goodbye

[jonp]

I've had great luck with H110 under 158gr swc boolits in my 357. Very accurate but a little smokey.

[44man]

The short barrel is just harder to shoot but can be accurate enough for 100 yards and more. It really is the short sight radius where .001" in sight picture ruins your shooting. I find it hard to blame boolit hardness or loads most of the time with them.
The guns are also light and a heart beat will move them let alone a poor trigger pull. Most problems are vision related.