Gouging vs supply and demand

[dilly]

Just a thread to discuss the many items which are in short supply right now, and how people are handling it. Feel free to move this if there is a better forum.

Let me preface this by saying there is no item I have vastly stockpiled and I have made no profit in this shortage. Anything I have that is in short supply I will probably hang onto for personal use.

I have been hearing a lot about hoarding, stockpiling, gouging, panicking, etc. lately. It strikes me that this group is a fiscally conservative group, which in all probability acknowledges the absolute economic reign of supply and demand. These shortages are very upsetting to people like us, and I have seen a little resentment from people.

I guess my question is where do you draw the line? Buying things at a low price to sell at a higher price is a commonly accepted business practice. Buying things at low demand and selling at higher demand is also acceptable.

Is it particularly despicable in the firearms industry because the gun grabbers present a clear enemy to our freedom, uniting firearms enthusiasts and creating a sense of camaraderie between gun owners that renders this profiteering inappropriate?

For example, if I had some very old 22 cal jacketed bullets for which I had no use would it be inappropriate to want what they are worth now rather than what was paid two years ago?

If one finds something at a store in stock and grabs it, offering it up for resale at a higher price, this is typically frowned upon, but I actually know of a gun shop owner who literally had to buy the only small pistol primers he could find from another local gun shop at full post Obamascare 2.0 price and resell them even higher just to have stock.

I ask primarily to establish a general consensus of appropriate behavior, but also to maybe provide a bit of a debate on the subject.

[bruce drake]

Currently a 2 cavity LEE 175gr 40S&W Tumble Lube mold is going for $117 on E-Bay...

[Wal']

What I just don't understand is that a Lyman #225415 223 mold just sold on eBay for $200 s/hand & you can buy the same mold from the Lyman website new for $84.95..............I don't get it ???

[WILCO]

but also to maybe provide a bit of a debate on the subject.

For me, the subject is closed. It's a capitalistic economy driven by supply and demand. The market dictates prices. Folks vote with their wallets. Basic economics 101. Adding anything else is just philosophical whining.

[jonp]

I just talked.with a guy on ebay that sold a Lee 4 Die 9mm Carbide set for $140. He was as stunned as I was but it was an auction so whatever. Me? I vote with my feet. I posted in another thread that the local shop now wants $28/ lb for unique which is about $10/lb higher than a few weeks ago. "harder to get" isnt an excuse since manu's havn't raised their prices. I let him know I didnt appreciate that and wouldnt be back.

[uaskme]

I went to Sportsman WHSE yesterday. They had primers on the shelf and some powder. None was on sale but they didn't raise their prices. When things settle down I'm still going to shop there. People have the right to run there business as they see fit. If they select the wrong policies they fail. Time will tell who is right.

[avogunner]

I just talked.with a guy on ebay that sold a Lee 4 Die 9mm Carbide set for $140......

To that.....all I can say is "A fool and his money are easily separated".

[btroj]

Using EBay as an example is silly. Some of those purchases could be people from outside the US who find that some retailers won't ship international. Some of those purchase are by people who are just stupid. I don't think they are an indication of reality, some things always sell for way more than they should.

Selling something ou have had for a while for the current retail isn't gouging. It is intelligent.

I don't know if I am sure what gouging is. I could see a concerted effort by retailers to artificially drives prices as gouging. A guy at a gun show who bought 100K of primers at 32 per K and tried to sell them at 50 per K isn't gouging. I hope he ends up eating them but I don't deny him the right to take a chance on making money or not.

Capitalism is all about finding a market and filling a need. Sometimes you need to create a need. Right now I don't need some am not buying.

Remember, something is only worth as much as a person is willing to pay for it. A 100 dollar 30 round AR mag isn't worth 100 dollars until it sells for that much.

If some moron is willing to pay 75 per K for primers then I don't care. His money, not mine. I will not be the first to laugh at him, I also am sure I won't be the last.

[Reload3006]

This is a society and country based upon supply and demand. I have talked to a lot of shop owners here in my local area who have set a margin and stuck with it. They are diversified in their product lines so they can offer competitave prices on everything they sell. And Yes they are local mom and Pop shops. For example I was talking to the owner of Howell county outfitters here in MO. We were discussing the craze and I noticed that he was offering normal prices even on ARs he happened to get in stock and I asked him why he wasn't following the trend in shop owners. His answer was this "This lunacy is going to pass and I want to keep my customers so I have a business when its over." His prices were always on the high side but not unreasonably high. I will pay 3 to 5 percent more there because I understand he needs to make a profit. He is. But he in turn understands that his customers are worth more to his business than a short term windfall.

[jonp]

To that.....all I can say is "A fool and his money are easily separated".

no kidding. I pm'd him about it and he said that if the sale go's through he is going to load all of his brass up and sell all of his dies and take a vacation and rebuy them in a next year. I'm thinking the same thing. If someone wants to pay me 3 or 4 times what an item is selling for then that is their business. The funny thing is that I have found all of the individual dies for sale on the internet at different places and it would come in at about $60 or so.

[imashooter2]

I don't draw the line. Price gouging does not exist. There is only price and an individuals willingness or unwillingness to pay it.

[oldtoolsniper]

Call it whatever you want as long as your check don't bounce.

[randyrat]

I'm still glad to be here in the USA and I'm not leaving. If one does not like it change it or try to, just be careful what you ask for. Supply and demand runs this country, high prices will open the doors for more investment into what we like, that is a good thing, then prices will go down once again.

That is what separates us from many other countries. Many countries the Gov Micro manages or tries to and screws it up.

[uscra112]

Economics 101. Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources.

Free markets establish allocation by price negotiation. If some are willing to pay a higher price because they want the item more than the next guy, then so be it. The higher price causes them to buy less, and leave some for the next guy. The seller on his side has a perfect right and in fact an obligation to test the marketplace to see what price he can get. This mechanism assures a reasonably wide allocation of the goods, rather than concentrating them in the hands of the few buyers who got there first. Higher prices also bring to the marketplace goods which would otherwise have languished in storage, and give incentive to producers to allocate their own resources so as to create more of the good whose price is high.

I'm getting more than a little aggravated with people demanding lower prices because that's what they paid last month or the month before. Famines happen. The wise man prepares for famine, and that's advice that goes all the way back to the Old Testament. Just be thankful that it's just ammo and components, grasshoppers, and not food and water. If that gives you an idea, run with it. If not, go vote for Obama again and wait for the Government to bail you out the next time you run short.

BTW free markets are not capitalism. The term "Capitalism" refers to with the question of who retains and re-invests the profits, the seller or the government. As we know, free markets and private capital formation thrive together, but they are not the same thing.

[Case Stuffer]

The only group I feel sorry for are the new first time firearms purchasers who purchased a handgunfor personal / home defense and then found out that there is no ammo available to train with so they decide to take upreloading equipment only to find there is a 2 to 5 month back order on equipment and then learn primers,powder and bullets are either not available ,cost more than they should or are back ordered worse than the reloading equipment is.

I have had a carry permit for nearly 50 years and for the past 35 years have carried a 45ACP. During the past 25 years I have done very little shooting and no reloading. Six weeks or so ago I purchased a XD SC 9 for CC and store limited ammo sales to two boxs with gun purchase. These 100 rounds were FMJ and not even from any of the big name ammo manufactures. I ordered Speer LE (50 rds.) for carry from an online dealer with stock but it took over a month to arrive.

Lucky for me I still had a couple of thousand rounds of FMJ, LRN,LSWC and even a few 115gr. Sierra JHP that I had loaded '79-'82 for my Browning HP whic I had traded for a S&W 44 mag. years ago. Also still have my reloading and casting equipment and a few thousand primers and a couple of pounds of powder.

Thanks to membes here I now have a few thousand more 9MM brass which I am working up and some COWW ingots which I can blend with what little bit of different alloys I still have on hand.

Many say everyone should have seen this coming and stocked up. Yes the signs were there and in fact have been there since way back in the sixties when world wide disarmament of the civilian population was first brought to the table in the UN. It still makes me sick to my stomach that the UN even exist much less that the US foost most of the bill.

Things will either get better or a whole lot worse and only time can tell.

[oldtoolsniper]

So there you are at an estate sale. You look over on the counter and there sits two star Luber Sizer's and a 313 Ohaus 3110 triple beam grain scale with the Mahogany box.. The asking price for all three items is $60 at $20 each. You decide to ask about them to figure out why the prices are so low. The lady running the sale points out to you that nobody count seeds with a scale anymore and she has no idea how to make those two grease guns work but they do squirt out black grease if you pump the handle. Funny thing is it comes out like little worms through these tubes with holes drilled through them. They must be broken By the way there's 10 or 11 of those little tubes with holes drilled through them in a box she is willing to throw in with the deal.

You know those Stars would sell on eBay for $300-$350 a piece right now not to mention what the dies would bring.
You also know that scale is extremely difficult to find, it's probably a $400-$500 item on eBay because of the mahogany box and the near mint condition that its in.

You're standing there looking at possibly $1000 worth of equipment At the current selling prices. Using math for Marines you're looking at a $940 profit if you buy those items today.

Being completely honest with yourself what would you do? Go to the ATM and get the other $940, or buy it all for $60 and come to this website and brag about it.

Perhaps you would even be so low as to offer her $40.00 for all of it, after all those grease guns could be broken and you are taking a chance buying them...

Gosh that's not gouging that's just a great deal!

Post after post after post of individuals will congratulate you and wish they'd only found a deal like that.

I bet you feel so guilty you come right on here and sell the items for exactly what you paid for them.

Somehow I think you might become a gouger.

[Bigslug]

"When the time to physically act arrives, the time to physically prepare has passed"

If you didn't see the writing on the wall with the '89 California ban and the ongoing idiocy in that state, the '94 Federal ban, and the '08 election, then you might want to take the blinders off. I don't have a lot of pity for anyone who is just now saying "I never thought THIS would happen!"

When faced with starvation, the average priest might go a day or two longer than the rest of us before conking someone on the head for a Big Mac, but in the end, most folks do what they have to. "Appropriateness" is a term of luxury that doesn't really have a place in the conversation in the times of crisis when Darwin is in charge. Businesses have to charge more to weather the uncertainty of their of their continued resupply. Customers have to pay more because that is the going rate, and as the above examples of auctions on Lee equipment illustrate, the lemmings often set the market price for themselves.

Is it annoying? Certainly. But I wouldn't raise the "immoral" flag just because someone is charging more than you want to pay for something you want to have. That's what folks on welfare do.

[btroj]

Even for the first time gun owners. Why didn't they buy sooner?

Waiting for the time to be right means you may also be waiting for the time to be wrong.

I like the Star analogy. Seeking them for a profit isn't gouging, it is good luck and money in your pocket.

[uscra112]

I don't draw the line. Price gouging does not exist. There is only price and an individuals willingness or unwillingness to pay it.

Actually, price gouging does exist, specifically in the case where a monopoly exists, or a market has been "cornered". The 19th century railroads gouged the heck out of farmers, and they could do so because they were the only transport the farmers could access to get their grain to consumers. Ma Bell gouged us when by government fiat they were they only company allowed to provide phone service. Cable companies still gouge by getting local government to give them a monopoly in an area, although satellite services quickly came along and dampened that little game. Unions gouge consumers by preventing competition in the labor market. You want to know the worst price gouging today? Hospitals. You have to have a license to set up a hospital, and guess who runs the licensing boards? Yup, the other hospitals. 'Course the classic example is taxi medallions in NYC!

With regard to our ammo, powder and primers, you still have plenty of options if you don't like the price at the LGS. There's no monopoly there. How many companies manufacture ammo? How many make powder? How any distribution channels are there for you to access? As near a free market as we can get in this day and age.

[runfiverun]

i think this is a great study.
transfer this to any other product and you see the same results.
look at toy's back in the 80's and 90's [elmo,cabbage patch dolls] or those sales they have at thanksgiving.
it works both directions.

[btroj]

Run, how many Elmo dolls do you own? Creepy

Outside of monopolies gouging can't really exist. If people are willing to pay the price then it isn't gouging. The gougee is as much to blame as much as the gouger

[jonas302]

You can't be gouged on something that you don't require Don't like a price don't buy
Ebay is an auction there is no one gouging and no one stealing it sells for as little or as much as the buyer will pay even with peoples theories of the owner bidding on the item you do not have to place the next bid

The gun shop owners try to make a buck well they are in business to do that

[DrCaveman]

I'm still a little concerned that there is some portion of this situation that hopes for a (conspiracy theory to follow) consolidation of firearms and reloading components into the hands of the few outfits large enough to withstand 6-9 months of virtually no new stock entering the shelves.

Cabelas, sportsmans warehouse, I have absolutely no problem with, I have bought plenty of guns, ammo, targets, powder, primers, and bullets (before joining the enlightened ranks of our common hobby). They both offer very wide selection, and sportsman's offers pretty competitive pricing in my experience.

The pickle is that both these guys can get by selling their other gazillion products while the market stabilizes and supply returns to normal. So they will weather the storm regardless. And then be in the drivers seat when the storm settles, because they: kept their buildings, kept their employees, the owners kept their homes, kept their insurance plans, and have plenty of capital and industry clout to get large orders and priority for shipment of product due to proven track record of sales.

All this then allows any outfit wishing to control the availability of certain firearms or reloading components (use your imagination as to which outfit this might be) to do so much easier, by manipulating only 2, 3 or 4 companies and their national distribution network.

Divide and conquer, it is as basic as supply and demand.

Please please continue to patronize your Local Gun Shop! (as if I had to convince you guys). I think it is more important now than ever. Monopoly is the scourge of capitalism, it is where things get real real ugly...

[felix]

Suppliers want a 30 percent increase across the board, initiated by ATK. ... felix

[1Shirt]

Believe Felix is correct------unfortunately! If I don't have it now, and I can't find it reasonably (for the times) I will do without. Do wish I had more SP primers standard, and Unique however. But I can do without at current prices and availability.
1Shirt!

[dilly]

These responses have made sense to me mostly.

I have seen some people bearing ill will toward those who would profit from this. I find the prices to be discouraging at best but if I had to blame anyone it would be the tyrannical views of our Nanny state.

[Alley Cat]

I fear for our economic freedom every time I read people complaining about "gouging". If a seller can't increase his price in the face of unrelenting demand, then soon there will be none on the shelf anywhere. I, personally, would rather have the opportunity to buy a brick of 22 LR for $100 than for there to be none at all.

Capitalism (or simply, economic freedom) is the only system in the world that can ensure supply to everyone in a high demand environment, as long as they want it bad enough. But we have to be willing to let the system work...

[imashooter2]

Actually, price gouging does exist, specifically in the case where a monopoly exists, or a market has been "cornered". The 19th century railroads gouged the heck out of farmers, and they could do so because they were the only transport the farmers could access to get their grain to consumers. Ma Bell gouged us when by government fiat they were they only company allowed to provide phone service. Cable companies still gouge by getting local government to give them a monopoly in an area, although satellite services quickly came along and dampened that little game. Unions gouge consumers by preventing competition in the labor market. You want to know the worst price gouging today? Hospitals. You have to have a license to set up a hospital, and guess who runs the licensing boards? Yup, the other hospitals. 'Course the classic example is taxi medallions in NYC!

With regard to our ammo, powder and primers, you still have plenty of options if you don't like the price at the LGS. There's no monopoly there. How many companies manufacture ammo? How many make powder? How any distribution channels are there for you to access? As near a free market as we can get in this day and age.

You didn't have to use the railroad, have a phone, watch cable or even go to the hospital. If you chose or choose to use those services, you must have figured the price was or is worth it, therefore, you were not gouged. Don't like the price? Do without. Period.

[Bigslug]

There is a potential bright side to this:

Maybe it will "gouge" some of the ostriches out of the sand and flip them in the general direction of their local polling place.

[runfiverun]

heck brad i ain't got any elmo dolls that little dude creeps me out.
sometimes the need is fabricated.
if you sell the parents on the fact that everybody elses kid wants the doll then automatically your kid wants that doll too.
whether the kid cares or not it's getting one.
it's like the 10 dollar experiment where the two people can split ten dollars if they agree on a split.
one person makes the offer of the split and the other one agrees or declines.
if it's agreed on then they split the money that way.
if it's declined neither one gets any money.
either way both people would have more than they did to begin with.
however the lopsided offers were universally declined.
making the decliner a loser too.

MMMmmmmHHmmm.

[MtGun44]

+1 on uscra112. The key point is a market allocating scarce resources by the pricing
mechanism.

Only artificial monopolies can gouge. If there are multiple available sellers, then let the scarcity
of the item relative to the demand for it control the price.

Bill

[btroj]

Like fishing lures? Don't have to catch fish, just fishermen.

I can still get some primers locally for 34 per K. Powder is still reasonable. I recently bought 8 pounds of 2400 for 109 dollars.

Am I panic buying? Heck no. Are others that I know panic buying? Yep.

[rmark]

Higher prices also motivate private owners to pull unused ammo and components out of storage for sale.