7.62 x 39 Brass Question

[JohnH]

Does anyone know what size primer pocket Fiocchi uses in their brass for the short Ruskie?

I've been shooting my SKS the last several days and am shocked by the difference in group size between Remington and Winchester brass. Reminton uses a small rifle primers, Winchester uses large. In this rifle, loads in the Remington brass will shoot 1 1/2"-2" groups. Put the same loads into Winchester brass and the groups double in size.

Remington doesn't sell 7.62 x 39 brass, only loaded ammunition at $18.00 a box of 20. Winchester sells brass, but at double the group size, what use is it???? Fiocchi sells boxer primed, reloadable brass in thier ammo at half the cost of the Remington stuff. Hence, my interest.

[mooman76]

Don't know but I have a few hundred brass I've picked up and I'll see what I got!

[BruceB]

Maintaining consistency in my brass supply has led me to standardize on Winchester cases for my current 7.62x39, which happens to be a stainless Ruger 77.

Starting out with 500 once-fired Federals from an Ebay seller, I found the case necks were grossly variable in wall thickness. No good, and I got rid of the brass. Hence, the Winchester stuff became my choice.

I have never tried any experiments with Remington brass. However, may I suggest that you do some tests with Large Pistol primers in your WW cases? I fired a few such rounds in my last SKS without any difficulties such as perforations of the cup or other physical problems in the autoloader.

In my last several-dozen test recipes for the M77, I've been using CCI 300 (LP) primers. I have a general impression that the accuracy is somewhat better than what I was getting with Large Rifle primers, but the the recipes are wildly assorted. I'd have to do a direct comparison for each load with both primer types to make a final determination.

Might be worth a try. Just make up a few loads with the pistol primers at first, in case they don't do well in your rifle for physical reasons such as cratering or perforations. The ignition will certainly be sufficient for such a small case volume.

[mooman76]

OK here is what I found and by the way I didn't know this until you brought it up.

Lapua, Winchester, PMC, FC & a brass marked \ M / . All have large primer pockets.

The only one with small was R-P.

Does Fiocchi mark their brass FC?

I hope in some way this helped.

[Bret4207]

Remember the 30 American? A standard 30-30 case with a small rifle primer pocket, ala 22PPC. The idea was it'd be benchrest accurate. IIRC- it was.

[Kraschenbirn]

John...

Dunno if you'd be interested or not but I've got around 300 rounds of new W-W FMJ stuff (along with some odds and ends of berdan-primed Czech) looking for a new home. Have no idea about shipping or hazmat or whatever but I'd be willing to entertain about any offer.

Bill

[Trapshooter]

From a ballistic standpoint, the pistol primer makes a great deal of sense. I would be more cautious than usual with the first few pistol primers in the SKS. In a bolt action, the softer cup and higher sensitivity doesn't present a problem, but the inertial firing pin in an SKS may set off a pistol primer before you expected it. This may not be a problem with your rifle.

Trapshooter

[Herb in Pa]

According to Dillon's 650 conversion chart Remington is the only manufacturer with small primer pockets. I've been using Lapua with no problems in my Remington 799.

[Nueces]

Mooman, I believe FC denotes 'Federal Cartridge.' I checked some Fiocchi 455 cases, and they are marked G.F.L., though it's hard to convey the accent in print...:mrgreen:

Mark

[No_1]

Please excuse the slight diversion from topic.

Herb,
How do you like the 799? I have been trying to research ths but have come to some dead ends. Being a mini mauser, what are your thoughts?

Back on topic: I would use the ones with small primers.




According to Dillon's 650 conversion chart Remington is the only manufacturer with small primer pockets. I've been using Lapua with no problems in my Remington 799.

[MT Gianni]

A couple of years ago at a gun show i bought 200 rds of 7.62x39 Rem brass as that was all the seller had. She said the new Rem brass would be LR primed. I have not seen any new Rem brass to confirm it. Gianni

[BruceB]

No_1, excuse me for horning in on your mini-Mauser question.

I bought a Whitworth/Interarms version of the rifle in .223 a couple years ago. I like almost everything about it, but it has two flaws...one major, one minor.

The minor one is that I could find only ONE scope-base set from any manufacturer. Mine came from Midway, and I don't recall who made it.

The major flaw is likely only with my rifle. It frequently jams solidly about half-way back on the extraction stroke, and I mean SOLIDLY. I've even taken a mallet and HAMMERED the bolt to try to move it. Nothing. It might as well be welded in place. And yet, by merely moving the rear of the bolt about a sixteenth of an inch to the side with my fingers, it is instantly freed up and retracts.

I've taken every part out of the action, honed, deburred and polished every surface, stoned the daylights out of all surfaces on the bolt, and it still hangs up "tight as a bull's --- in fly time," as they say down on the ranch. A local gunsmith had a go at it, and $40 later it's still the same.

If this was a rifle for any sort of serious purpose, I'd be more worried. As it is, it's just a long-range plinker and I'm not all that concerned.

Just a heads-up for you.

[9.3X62AL]

No dog in this fight, no 7.62 x 39 here. It just seems kinda ridiculous to me to use a large rifle primer as "book" spark plug for a case of this size.

[felix]

Yep, large pistol should do it just fine. The length of fire is the main requirement for good powder ignition without regard for path width. That case is how long? Surely, not too long for a pistol primer of any repute. Try all of them, including magnum types, before going to the rifle strength of any flavor. Assuming here the firing pin is long enough for good performance. ... felix

[res45]

I use Winchester brass in my YUGO SKS CCI #34 Mil Spec primers 26 Grs. of AA1680 topped of with Hornady 123 Gr. Sp I get 1/2" groups 1 ragged hole at 50 Yds all day long as long as I do my part and no scope. I have never tried the Rem brass I have some I picked up at the range (reloaders gold) so cant say how it would preform.

[felix]

Condom bullets can take about any kind of stress in that small of a case, assuming the powder is half way correct. Lead boolit requirements are the name of the game here for such a small case, isn't? ... felix

[Herb in Pa]

Please excuse the slight diversion from topic.

Herb,
How do you like the 799? I have been trying to research ths but have come to some dead ends. Being a mini mauser, what are your thoughts?

Back on topic: I would use the ones with small primers.

The trigger is not the greatest, I replaced it with a Timney and have no other issues. I got the scope mounts from Midway they are Weaver style, but are steel rather than aluminum.

I was shooting cast out of it hot and heavy, but have been sidetracked of late with 22 Rimfire. I found a 37 Remington with a Lyman Tube sight and have been messing with it and a few others.

As soon as things cool down a bit I will resume shooting the 7.62X39.

[No_1]

BruceB,
Thanks for the heads up. I will steer clear of those as I am to the point where I really do not want to fix what I consider a manufacture process issue when I take a new one out of the box.

R.


No_1, excuse me for horning in on your mini-Mauser question.

I bought a Whitworth/Interarms version of the rifle in .223 a couple years ago. I like almost everything about it, but it has two flaws...one major, one minor.

The minor one is that I could find only ONE scope-base set from any manufacturer. Mine came from Midway, and I don't recall who made it.

The major flaw is likely only with my rifle. It frequently jams solidly about half-way back on the extraction stroke, and I mean SOLIDLY. I've even taken a mallet and HAMMERED the bolt to try to move it. Nothing. It might as well be welded in place. And yet, by merely moving the rear of the bolt about a sixteenth of an inch to the side with my fingers, it is instantly freed up and retracts.

I've taken every part out of the action, honed, deburred and polished every surface, stoned the daylights out of all surfaces on the bolt, and it still hangs up "tight as a bull's --- in fly time," as they say down on the ranch. A local gunsmith had a go at it, and $40 later it's still the same.

If this was a rifle for any sort of serious purpose, I'd be more worried. As it is, it's just a long-range plinker and I'm not all that concerned.

Just a heads-up for you.

[No_1]

Thanks for the input Herb,

I have trigger jobs done on most of my guns before I get serious with them so the Timney swap is not an issue. I look forward to they review when you get back to shooting it.

R.


The trigger is not the greatest, I replaced it with a Timney and have no other issues. I got the scope mounts from Midway they are Weaver style, but are steel rather than aluminum.

I was shooting cast out of it hot and heavy, but have been sidetracked of late with 22 Rimfire. I found a 37 Remington with a Lyman Tube sight and have been messing with it and a few others.

As soon as things cool down a bit I will resume shooting the 7.62X39.

[JohnH]

WOW! Didn't expect all that.

I've tried CCI 350's, they perforated, 2 of 5. I'll try some of the Winchester and Federal pistol primers I have. I wonder if the firing pin may be a tad long and causing this problem with the softer pistol primer cup. Anyone care to hazard a guess?

Al, I agree completely. Why a fool would put a large primer in a 25 grain case is beyond me.

I'm surprised to hear that Lapua is a large primer pocket. Aren't they the main source of 22 and 6mm PPC cases? Don't the bench rest shooters demand small primers on those? With the 220 Russian, 7.62 x 39, 22 and 6mm PPC all being from the same parent case (7.62x39) wouldn't it make sense to punch small primer pockets in all of them??? Wouldn't the basic draws all be all the same tooling? Where do these guys come from??????

I guess the same idiot that designed Lee's dies designed Lapuas tooling too.
The Lee 7.62 x 54R die I have sizes the neck for a .308 bullet. The only 7.62x54R barrels in the world that are 308 are the Finns. EVERYTHING else is .311-.312. My 1946 M44 has a .314 groove diameter. Who came up with that crap???? :( Meanwhile my Lee 7.62x39 dies are properly sized for a 312 bullet. That makes perfect sense as no European (excepting the Finns) or Asian nation makes a 7.62 that is 308, all theirs .311-.312. I wish the dang engineeers would do more shootin' an' reloadin', then they would prolly solve these silly details.

[Bret4207]

I use Winchester brass in my YUGO SKS CCI #34 Mil Spec primers 26 Grs. of AA1680 topped of with Hornady 123 Gr. Sp I get 1/2" groups 1 ragged hole at 50 Yds all day long as long as I do my part and no scope. I have never tried the Rem brass I have some I picked up at the range (reloaders gold) so cant say how it would preform.



LORD HELP US!!! Another SKS shooting "ragged one hole groups"!!!!


For those who have NO idea what I'm talking about, just ignore this.

[res45]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/scan1-1.jpg

[mike in co]

ok first...sks and the ak designed by the same gentleman, both fire worldwide large primer ammo. if i was to hazard a guess, i'd say the large temperature spread from sub zero to 100 plus may have been why. but for an answer you are gonna ask him yourself, or maybe the rusian military knows why.

so the real thing is, why did one manufacture buck the "std" and produce small pockets ???( maybe for commercial bolt guns ??)

no 7.62x39 is not the parent case for the PPC rounds; the 7.62x39 is the parent of a commercial russian round,,,the 220 russian, and it is the parent of the PPC rounds( and it is std with a small primer pocket).

the ppc's are the std's fo BENCHREST shooting, but are being challenged by an upstart 30BR and 30ppc( see the world turning ??). what has just hit the market is a 22 and 6mm based on the stock 220 russian case with only one change( two if you want). you can have a 22 and a 6mm in in no turn necks with a change to a radius at the neck or you can have each with a thick turned neck. custome dies from hornady, and reamers from several makers.

i have tons of large primer brass, and some 220 russian for for my 6ppc. large primer brass has been shot in ppc, but the choice is small. i even have lapua commercial 7.62x39 130 gr ammo.

[Bret4207]

Res45- Don't worry about the post I made about your "ragged one hole groups". It was a phrase beloved by a long gone member here. He too shot an SKS, as do I. But, here's the big but, he never posted photos like yours or participated in the postal matches. So all it was was your use of the phrase stirring an old memory.

BTW- No doubt in my mind the SKS is shooter. Amazing for a $185.00 semi auto rifle. Good job.

[res45]

You are correct in assuming that the reason the Russians used the LRP in the 7.62 x 39 mm round was mostly due to weather conditions extreme cold required a hotter ignition in below zero conditions which can be only be accomplished by the use of the LRP.

From http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/primers/index.asp
Small pistol and large pistol primers may look like their rifle counterparts, however, they very different! Pistol primers have thinner cups and less mixture in the wafer. Using a pistol primer in a rifle load may cause the cup to be punctured. Even if the cup isn’t punctured; the powder will not burn correctly.

[JohnH]

ok first...sks and the ak designed by the same gentleman, both fire worldwide large primer ammo. if i was to hazard a guess, i'd say the large temperature spread from sub zero to 100 plus may have been why. but for an answer you are gonna ask him yourself, or maybe the rusian military knows why.

so the real thing is, why did one manufacture buck the "std" and produce small pockets ???( maybe for commercial bolt guns ??)

no 7.62x39 is not the parent case for the PPC rounds; the 7.62x39 is the parent of a commercial russian round,,,the 220 russian, and it is the parent of the PPC rounds( and it is std with a small primer pocket).

the ppc's are the std's fo BENCHREST shooting, but are being challenged by an upstart 30BR and 30ppc( see the world turning ??). what has just hit the market is a 22 and 6mm based on the stock 220 russian case with only one change( two if you want). you can have a 22 and a 6mm in in no turn necks with a change to a radius at the neck or you can have each with a thick turned neck. custome dies from hornady, and reamers from several makers.

i have tons of large primer brass, and some 220 russian for for my 6ppc. large primer brass has been shot in ppc, but the choice is small. i even have lapua commercial 7.62x39 130 gr ammo.

Deeper research will reveal that Siminov, not Kalisnikov designed the SKS. Essentiallly, it is a scaled down version of the 14.5mm PTRS antitank gun (Smith and Smith "Small arms of the World") and initial design work predates the AK on the order of 10 years.

Saying the 7.62x39 is not the parent of the PPC's is like saying the 8mm Mauser is not the parent of the 30-06 based cartridges. That was afterall the case we based the 30-03 on, which was then altered in neck length to make the 30-06. So similar were the 1903 Springfield and the '98 Mauser, the court forced the US government to pay Paul Mauser royalties on every '03 made.

As I see things, a very good arguement could be made that Smith and Wessons 44 Russian is the parent of the 44 Magnum. It is afterall the case which established the basic case head, rim and body dimensions. The 44 Special and Magnum which followed later all share those, and vary only in length. It is thru this same rational that I would call the 7.62x39 to be the parent for the PPC's.

[brshooter]

I have 1000 R-P 7.62X39 cases for sale if anyone is interested. All new brass, sell as a lot, not bread them up. Jon

[brshooter]

I have a 1000 Rem. case with small rifle pockets for sale. These are unfired brass casings and I want to sell them as an entire lot. Jon

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=JohnH;210390].

Saying the 7.62x39 is not the parent of the PPC's is like saying the 8mm Mauser is not the parent of the 30-06 based cartridges. That was afterall the case we based the 30-03 on, which was then altered in neck length to make the 30-06. So similar were the 1903 Springfield and the '98 Mauser, the court forced the US government to pay Paul Mauser royalties on every '03 made.

QUOTE]

actually we did not pay for building 03's as copies of mausers. in the end the court ordered payment based on using copies of the "newly pointed"/spitzer bullet design.........it was a very strange end to a long international court case.

mike

[floodgate]

We also paid royalties on the stripper clips.

floodgate