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Jim
03-02-2013, 11:25 AM
I dropped by the local Mom & Pop gunshop yesterday to pick up something Ms. Jeanette had ordered for me and just visit for a bit. There were two 'good ol' boys' there chatting with Harold. Par for the course, guns were the topic of discussion. Somebody mentioned the .444 and I got an education on the caliber, the likes of which I have never received.

One of these 'good ol' boys' proceeded to preach on the power and killing capacity of the 444 and insisted it is capable of parking ANYTHING that walks this planet. He even went so far as to use elephants as an example. "It don't matter what you point it at or where you hit 'im, it's goin' DOWN!"

I thought it might be fun to hear this out, so I just sat quietly and listened to this worldly man preach his knowledge. He made one statement, though, that made me wonder just how much I know. He claimed that the recoil of the 444 was so bad, he saw a man that was big enough to fill a doorway get kicked on his butt by one.

That statement gave me pause to reconsider my loading techniques as I have a .45-70 bolt rifle that I shoot 540 grain boolits with. I can handle it with the 105% density charge of 7383, but it's not something I'd want to shoot for recreation. If the 444 will knock a grown man on his butt, obviously, I'm not loading my .45-70 cartridges to full potential.

I'm so thankful this gentleman was in Harold's shop when I got there. I also was gifted with his vast knowledge on the .30-06 caliber. When someone mentioned the caliber, he graciously informed all of us that "The biggest animal the .30-06 is any good for is a deer." Holding his thumb and index finger very close together, he said "It ain't no bigger'n that!"

I also learned that all the trajectory data that has been produced and published over the last 50 to 75 years is useless. In singing the praises of the .243, he informed us that he has one that will shoot flat for over 500 yards. "I can put my scope on somethin' at a hunnerd yards an' it'll hit the same place all the way out to 500 yards. It shoots dead flat!"

I wish you all could have been there with me. It was truly an experience to hear this man speak.

eljefe
03-02-2013, 11:34 AM
I know the same guy...he comes in
my store at least once a week.:)

Boerrancher
03-02-2013, 11:47 AM
I love folks like that. They provide a level of entertainment that is hard to find. The only thing that is better is when you take them to a rifle range then show them what real shooting at 100 yards or farther really is all about. I have found that most of these guys think if they can hit a 5 gal bucket at 50 yards they are expert marksmen. I am a really poor pistol shot. I will admit it, and there have been many times I have taken a pistol and out shot loud mouth braggarts who were using a rifle. I love listening to guys brag about how well they can shoot and then a few min later pack up and leave the range mad because they were out shot by someone with a hand gun, or by a little kid.

Best wishes,

Joe

Larry Gibson
03-02-2013, 11:47 AM
Didn't that same guy post here and now is over on AR?

Larry Gibson

btroj
03-02-2013, 11:49 AM
Idiocy knows no bounds

Charlie Two Tracks
03-02-2013, 11:52 AM
How fortunate can you be Jim! It is amazing what stuff you can learn for free at gun shops and ranges. I need to go see a shrink. I keep thinking that my lead boolits are traveling over 1,000 fps and it is not possible to do such a thing. I don't know how many times you can ruin the same barrel shooting lead. If you shoot lead you will ruin the barrel and I've ruined my barrel so many times that it now shoots great..............?

alrighty
03-02-2013, 11:53 AM
I guess it is the same everywhere.The old saying every village has their idiot seems to be very true.In any specialized trade and/or hobby you will also meet plenty.The machinist trade is full of these people.Whenever you get a person telling you about all they know and what all they have done , pull your boots up high and roll up your britches legs!
The good thing is like you just found out , they can be very entertaining.However they are not trainable because they already know everything.Luckily they don't seem to hang around long before they are off dazzling others with their brilliance.

longshot1154
03-02-2013, 11:54 AM
We have one of these guys that work at the gas station in the town I work in. Every time I go in there, he has to start talking about guns and the ones he's going to buy. This kid is 22 years old and lives in his car in the Home Depot parking lot in town. He's got a few guns hidden somewhere in the car.

Love Life
03-02-2013, 11:56 AM
Dang Jim, you could have at least asked him what he thought about the 338 Lapua Magnum.

472x1B/A
03-02-2013, 11:59 AM
WOW this guy sure do git aroud. One day in Va., one day in Md., one day in Ill.. Does anybody else know this guy? I bet he's got a lot of aliases.

One day he told me that if I put too tight of a choke in my shotgun that the shot would crosss from one side to the other, after it left the wad, in flight to the target. No joke, he was dead serious.

Kull
03-02-2013, 12:01 PM
At what point did you openly laugh out loud? I think I could of made it to the 243 bit but would of lost it at that point.

gray wolf
03-02-2013, 12:04 PM
I meet at least 10 of those same guys every year,
must have there own breading pool.

btroj
03-02-2013, 12:06 PM
I worked with a guy who knew a dude who had been in the Army. In Iraq the guy made numerous headshots at over 300 yards with a stock M4 carbine. This was from a person who had no clue.

I just ignore them and make sure I don't shoot near them.

AmishWarlord
03-02-2013, 12:07 PM
Pass.

I was at the range having just sited in my 416 Rigby when I over heard someone telling someone else how the 30-30 kicks like a mule.

Funny how the "old" G1 Contender can handle the awesome power of the 444.

TheDoctor
03-02-2013, 12:08 PM
Must be the modern day Kilroy! Been there, done that, before, and better than you did!

captaint
03-02-2013, 12:09 PM
While I have never shot one, I have HEARD that the .444 will produce nasty recoil. Heard it from people that have way more experience than me. I won't pass it along as gospel, cause I've never shot one. I THINK most .444's are chambered in leverguns, so, yeah - that COULD make for some notable recoil. Never shot one, though. Elephants ?? That's entertaining. Mike

Jim Flinchbaugh
03-02-2013, 12:11 PM
There were two 'good ol' boys' there chatting with Harold.

From the rest of the story, it sounds like you do not want to play poker with Harold,
if he was able to stifle snickers and hold a straight face through out that

Para82
03-02-2013, 12:12 PM
You can usually find that same fellow at the gun counter at the Wheeling WV Cabelas on any given Saturday! I use to own a Marlin 444. Traded it off because I was younger and stupid. Wish I had it back.
Para82

DHurtig
03-02-2013, 12:16 PM
I'll always remember the story a young man told of his fathers shooting prowess. Seems dear old dad once shot a deer at just over a thousand yards with a 30-30 with open sights. I sure do envy the old mans skill. Dale http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/c_latrans/roflmao.gif

tchepone
03-02-2013, 12:17 PM
Now I know where Joe Biden got all his information.

JonB_in_Glencoe
03-02-2013, 12:21 PM
.30-06 ...." Holding his thumb and index finger very close together, he said "It ain't no bigger'n that!"

I LOVE that quote !!!

I know a fellow that can twist a tail like that. I see him 5 to 10 times a year, usually in the winter and rarely in the summer. One fall day we met, He told me of his vacation in Russia, where for $20,000 he could fly a MIG-29 fighter Jet. He continued on the tail til he said, "He flew it to the edge of space"

I love that Line as well...where the hell is the edge of space ?

Jim
03-02-2013, 12:22 PM
From the rest of the story, it sounds like you do not want to play poker with Harold,
if he was able to stifle snickers and hold a straight face through out that

I made eye contact with Harold several times through this. He would smile ever so slightly as if to say "You listenin' to this, right?" It was all I could do to keep from bustin' out laughin'.

VladViscious
03-02-2013, 12:30 PM
I think this was the same guy that told me in a Manassas guns hop where I was picking up some 357 Mag for my lever to hunt deer with, that the 357 Mag wasn't enough gun to kill deer. He stopped to tell me this out his kindness, while he was telling the guy behind the counter how his Compound bow would drop any deer in its tracks. I just wish everyone lived where I do, where physics really live.

TANSTAAFL!

Trey45
03-02-2013, 12:41 PM
I know that guy, I used to shoot with him in Virginia. He'd sit at the gun counter all day telling you how good he could shoot, then go to the firing line and shoot minute of volkswagon groups and blame it on the gun, or the weather, or the ammo, or his thumb hurts, or sunspots, etc.

hiram1
03-02-2013, 12:55 PM
I can't help but think of all the guys that are buying all the powder and guns that think that way.Just think of how safe it is shooting next to them. [ok guys lets see what this hot load will do. All you have to do is fill up the brass]. I just hope they can see after it goes boom.Or the guy next to them.no book no good thinking it worry's me to know end.i shoot on my own land now days.Just think about this.be safe my frinds

Smitty's Retired
03-02-2013, 01:44 PM
Jim, that's half the fun of going to a gun shop. You always get to hear all the (:veryconfu) most accurate info there. My grandaddy once told me, "At times it is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Sounds like your buddy's gun shop just had a couple open their mouths. :D

oldred
03-02-2013, 01:51 PM
Now I know where Joe Biden got all his information.


I thought it was Joe Biden he was talking about?? :mrgreen:

41 mag fan
03-02-2013, 01:53 PM
Jim, please go back more often and get more info on guns and such. I'm enlightened beyond measure now!!!


Now I know where Joe Biden got all his information.
And the rest of the idiot libtards

wallenba
03-02-2013, 02:00 PM
Every shop and range has a character like that, that haunts the place. Usually they don't even take themselves seriously, and do it for fun and conversation. Then there are the ones that believe what they are saying. In one ear, out the other.

nicholst55
03-02-2013, 02:01 PM
At least this disinformation was coming from in front of the counter... Just sayin'.

Junior1942
03-02-2013, 02:02 PM
In a honkytonk, the same guy once told me that with his 30-30 he killed a deer running full speed across a pipeline at 600 yards. A friend sitting beside me said, "That's a damn lie," and the fight was on.

Kraschenbirn
03-02-2013, 02:15 PM
Yeah, I do believe I've encountered this guy a time or two. Unfortunately, in one particular shop that comes to mind, he's more often behind the counter, pontificating to the uninformed.

Bill

stubshaft
03-02-2013, 02:24 PM
I just knew I didn't load my 458 hot enough...

429421Cowboy
03-02-2013, 02:35 PM
I don't mind the local information station, as long as he's on the front side of the gun counter! One thing I cannot stand is a moron working in a gun store!

That guy seems to also frequent a local pawn shop we hang out at sometimes, he owns over 150 guns (that part i do know to be true) yet doesn't reload, and near as i can tell never shoots either. Loves telling us how good he is, yet he never seems to want to go shooting with any of us, nor does he ever actually go to the range himself. He also seems to love telling us how he paid $200 for this or that rifle and will let one of us buy it for $450, since he got such a good deal on it...

TheGrimReaper
03-02-2013, 02:49 PM
Common sense ain't that common!

gandydancer
03-02-2013, 02:51 PM
You can always tell an expert. But you can't tell them much.

excuse me sir. How much is the silver worth in these silver tipped Boolits??

Able 5
03-02-2013, 03:02 PM
Jim, I think I have visited with that guy at mid-carolina :bigsmyl2:

JeffinNZ
03-02-2013, 03:30 PM
It wouldn't do if we were all the same.

Infidel
03-02-2013, 04:28 PM
Gotta get into this action. Yep, I know that guy too. Hopefully you won't think I'm one after this. I have actually met a few people along the way that had some impressive, and verifiable, stories.
Probably 25 years ago, my former son-in-law took me up north of Columbus to hunt deer. He was a chimney sweep and had swept this guy's chimney. While he was there they discussed my affinity for thundersticks. This guy owned a large construction company, travelled to Africa back in the day when you could legally hunt some stuff that is off limits today. Was a personal friend with Jungle Jack Hanna and unfortunately he is now long deceased.
We pull up in front of the house and the doorhandles are Kudu horns. This guy's trophy rooms, yeah I did say rooms. African and North American. He chuckled about his 6 point Whitetail buck that was on his wall. He had full elephant tusks hung up, a full chest mount Kudu and the world's smallest deer, a Dikdik, along with a myriad of other species. Got to finally see his firearm collection. He pulled a large rifle down and asked me if I had ever seen one of these. It was a 378 Weatherby Magnum. He said it was not a pleasant gun to fire. When some of the African nations changed their big game rules to 40 cal or larger, he said that the 416 was a necked open 378. After walking past his 100 yd. range, with a 1.5" steel plate set at a 45 degree angle and noticing that there were holes punched at an angle through this thing. Yeah, ... I'm believing that is a manly mans' gun. No I didn't get a chance to try it out. He did tell me that you could kill an elephant with a 303, but he liked not being toejam. Very interesting fellow.
And no I didn't get a deer there. But, I did miss the biggest one I ever had a chance to shoot at, I MISSED!!!, and meet one of the most interesting fellows I've ever had an opportunity to meet. RIP Mr. Holderman.
As to the edge of space, it's right there next to the sidewalk crack.... the fiscal cliff, that we .... ok some idiots in Washington District of Corruption, long ago flung us over the edge of.

wgr
03-02-2013, 04:42 PM
And the guy working at the gun shop. told me not to shake the powder because it had nitro. in it.:)

Infidel
03-02-2013, 04:44 PM
Don't chew your nitro pills either. It'll blow your jaw off. (Do not tell little old ladies that are having an MI this. Don't ask how I know).

btroj
03-02-2013, 04:46 PM
And those same guys are online as internet experts. I determine more from what I see than what I hear.

Olevern
03-02-2013, 07:05 PM
You want some real entertainment? Spend a few dollars to go to a gun show and listen in on conversations at the tables, on both sides. If close to such an 'enlightening' conversation, I tend to bait them on to even greater heights of stupid statements; it doesn't take much encouragement.

Hawkeye45
03-02-2013, 08:02 PM
I met the same guy at the range last summer. According to him he was an expert pistol shot, then he got out a new Kimber 45 mad proceded to miss every one at 15 feet--with carbon ammo for practice. He left discussed because it was the guns fault. LOL.

Mr. Ed

Greg
03-02-2013, 09:11 PM
now I know how I missed my Turkey last year.

this splains it all...




One day he told me that if I put too tight of a choke in my shotgun that the shot would crosss from one side to the other, after it left the wad, in flight to the target. No joke, he was dead serious.

**oneshot**
03-02-2013, 09:23 PM
Love it Jim! Must have been the same guy who told me and my buddy "you need at least a 3-9scope to shoot groups at 100yds".

Blacksmith
03-02-2013, 10:39 PM
I love this guy he gets everywhere or maybe it's a gang of them. The ones who are expert marksmen I invite to show our junior air rifle team how it should be done. Then I have him (it is always a guy) shoot next to one of the better girls. The girls are shooting 8's to 10's and Mr. Blow Hard always seems to have sight problems, interesting that sights that need adjustment seem to cause large groups instead of tight groups in the wrong location.

For Mr. Macho, .44 Magnum/.500 S&W, I invite them to shoot my "Manly Handgun" a Contender with a .45-70 barrel of course I show them the .45-70 cartridge is larger than the .500 S&W. I am certain those who know it all, know the cartridges are loaded to different pressure levels and even if the .45-70 is larger the pressure is less.

TXGunNut
03-03-2013, 12:17 AM
He hangs out at a range near here! Somebody told him I loaded 45-70 and he proceeded to tell me about a buddy who filled the cases with some kind of smokeless powder (couldn't say what kind) and it would shoot thru 3-4 big trees! Pretty accurate too, could cover all his shots with a quarter at 100 yards. Silly guy just loves to go on & on but after awhile it's pretty hard to take.
Wish I could figure out what that load was, just in case I'm ever attacked by or find a recipe for mature hardwoods.

JIMinPHX
03-03-2013, 12:25 AM
I think that I may have ran into his twin brother in Houston a few months back. That guy was saying how on a hunt in Africa, his 7mm mag wasn't putting the game down fast enough so the guide loaned him a .243 with some kind of magic bullets in it. He couldn't seem to go into enough detail on how that 243 dropped the big African game like they had been struck by lightening.

Silly me, I always thought that most African countries had minimum caliber requirements for hunting big game & the 7mm wasn't even close to making the cut off, let alone the .243.

On another note, The 444 is a pretty punchy cartridge for thin skinned game. The biggest limitation that I see with it is the fact that it takes .429 bullets & everything that I have seen commercially available in that size is designed to perform at pistol velocities. Those bullets usually don't do so well at actual rifle speeds, or in tougher game.

runfiverun
03-03-2013, 12:58 AM
you can hunt plains game with regular cartridges. dan just got back a bit ago from there he was using his leverguns and cast boolits.
i believe he converted his P/G.

i just get to deal with MR idiot son.
he comes over and looks at my 6-H and proceeds to tell me i NEED a 30 round magazine on it so i can fling lead all over the place because my AR is not a target rifle and they were all built to not be accurate.
then how the M-4 was soo much better than my national match M-15, and how the colt was twice the gun the armalite is
i let him ramble untill i went down to get my target when i come back with it, HIS dad told him to shut-up and go sit down and if he said another word he was gonna go sit in the truck.
he went over and reminded the boy what i done for a living from the time i was 17 untill i was 28 and was pretty sure i knew how an ar platform worked.

smoked turkey
03-03-2013, 01:45 AM
I am amazed at the knowledge base available in this hobby. You just gotta know where to find it. Silly me, I thought the 30-06 was one of the best all around calibers going. I even thought that it was good for just about anything on four legs with exception of some of the big ones that can actually eat you. I need to get out more I realize. I'm sure I can find this guy at our local shop next time I go in.

Doc Highwall
03-03-2013, 11:51 AM
On another note, The 444 is a pretty punchy cartridge for thin skinned game. The biggest limitation that I see with it is the fact that it takes .429 bullets & everything that I have seen commercially available in that size is designed to perform at pistol velocities. Those bullets usually don't do so well at actual rifle speeds, or in tougher game.

Hornady did make a .429 bullet with a heavier jacket for the 444 and I think it is now made in the XTP line for use with the 444 and muzzle loaders.

dagger dog
03-03-2013, 12:31 PM
I turn wrenches at a mom and pop auto repair shop , we have several "garage groupies" (loafers) that stop by for coffee every morning and the dung is flung sometimes it turns to guns. Get's so deep gotta carry an entrenchment tool to dig your way out.

RoyEllis
03-03-2013, 01:08 PM
And those same guys are online as internet experts. I determine more from what I see than what I hear.

Yep, and there's a BUNCH of them that hang out trying to impress around the "prepper/end of the world as we know it" discussions. You'd be amazed at what a former SERE instructor can learn from the "facebook keyboard kommandos":coffeecom.
I figure they're an evil wolf and I refuse to feed them.

LUBEDUDE
03-03-2013, 01:18 PM
Now I know where Joe Biden got all his information.

Nailed it!

km101
03-03-2013, 01:25 PM
There's at least one in every gun shop, range, gun show, etc. They all know more than the reloading manuals, have shot more rifles than most folks have ever seen, and shoot better than the US Olympic team. LOL And here lately most of them are ex-Navy Seals. I did not know that there was a battalion of Seals, but there must be 'cause there would have to be that many to accomodate all the guys that claim to be or have been Seals.

But they are entertaining, and most folks know enough not to belive what they are preaching. I just listen as long as it's fun and then ignore them. Most of the time they are harmless.

Jim
03-03-2013, 01:26 PM
I learned a long time ago to simply let them say what they want and keep quiet. Nobody likes to be corrected or made a fool of in front of others. The expert is going to stand his ground and just dig his heels in. If you call the guy out, it'll turn into a :takinWiz: contest and quickly go south.

There's a lot of wisdom in that old adage "Give a man enough rope....."

On the other hand, I have many times been guilty of baiting. "That's interesting. What kinda' MOA ya' gettin'?" If you get that 'deer in the headlights' look, you know you got 'im. See how long it takes him to change the subject when you ask him "How much correction are you makin' for spin drift at that range?"

Just like pluggin' for Bass. Tease 'em into a strike, set the hook an' play 'em till they roll over! :bigsmyl2:

runfiverun
03-03-2013, 01:35 PM
Just like pluggin' for Bass. Tease 'em into a strike, set the hook an' play 'em till they roll over! :bigsmyl2:

this used to be my strategy at the ,,,errr. back before i was,, welll.
anyway it was the same one i used when younger.

skandic
03-03-2013, 03:33 PM
"How much correction are you makin' for spin drift at that range?". I'm stealing this can't wait to try it out

Jim
03-03-2013, 04:01 PM
"How much correction are you makin' for spin drift at that range?". I'm stealing this can't wait to try it out

Stealin'? No man, you're welcome to it!

Try this one: Ask him what the bullet energy ballistic coefficient ratio of his ammo is. :bigsmyl2:

Ya' learn how to play these fish, you can have more fun than you can get a permit for!

saintdel
03-03-2013, 06:06 PM
I had a Marlin 444S in the early 70's that I stupidly sold. I do recall that the recoil was pretty stout, but it never knocked my then 130 lb frame anywhere close to over. I for one can not stay in the presence of morons like this.

badboyparamedic
03-03-2013, 06:57 PM
Think the "Experts" have been to Arkansas too. Was at the range a couple of months ago and saw a guy trying to adjust the scope on his Brand New AR by tapping it side to side and up and down with a Brass Hammer.

I am not fudging this statement one bit........

firefly1957
03-03-2013, 07:12 PM
I bet he voted for obama TOO! I am glad i was not there Jim as it takes a while to clean all that Stuff off the boots i hope you had waders on!

I worked with a guy like that when he would get wound up i would sniff the air and say years ago there was a big sheep farm down the road and when the wind is right you can still smell! Or if Jeff is talking!!!

jcwit
03-03-2013, 07:42 PM
I dropped by the local Mom & Pop gunshop yesterday to pick up something Ms. Jeanette had ordered for me and just visit for a bit. There were two 'good ol' boys' there chatting with Harold. Par for the course, guns were the topic of discussion. Somebody mentioned the .444 and I got an education on the caliber, the likes of which I have never received.

One of these 'good ol' boys' proceeded to preach on the power and killing capacity of the 444 and insisted it is capable of parking ANYTHING that walks this planet. He even went so far as to use elephants as an example. "It don't matter what you point it at or where you hit 'im, it's goin' DOWN!"

I thought it might be fun to hear this out, so I just sat quietly and listened to this worldly man preach his knowledge. He made one statement, though, that made me wonder just how much I know. He claimed that the recoil of the 444 was so bad, he saw a man that was big enough to fill a doorway get kicked on his butt by one.

That statement gave me pause to reconsider my loading techniques as I have a .45-70 bolt rifle that I shoot 540 grain boolits with. I can handle it with the 105% density charge of 7383, but it's not something I'd want to shoot for recreation. If the 444 will knock a grown man on his butt, obviously, I'm not loading my .45-70 cartridges to full potential.

I'm so thankful this gentleman was in Harold's shop when I got there. I also was gifted with his vast knowledge on the .30-06 caliber. When someone mentioned the caliber, he graciously informed all of us that "The biggest animal the .30-06 is any good for is a deer." Holding his thumb and index finger very close together, he said "It ain't no bigger'n that!"

I also learned that all the trajectory data that has been produced and published over the last 50 to 75 years is useless. In singing the praises of the .243, he informed us that he has one that will shoot flat for over 500 yards. "I can put my scope on somethin' at a hunnerd yards an' it'll hit the same place all the way out to 500 yards. It shoots dead flat!"

I wish you all could have been there with me. It was truly an experience to hear this man speak.

That guy know just about as much as I do! I sure didn't vote for Obama tho.

lylejb
03-03-2013, 07:48 PM
Think the "Experts" have been to Arkansas too. Was at the range a couple of months ago and saw a guy trying to adjust the scope on his Brand New AR by tapping it side to side and up and down with a Brass Hammer.

I am not fudging this statement one bit........

And it works, too.........you just have to use a big enough hammer[smilie=s:

jcwit
03-03-2013, 08:00 PM
I met the same guy at the range last summer. According to him he was an expert pistol shot, then he got out a new Kimber 45 mad proceded to miss every one at 15 feet--with carbon ammo for practice. He left discussed because it was the guns fault. LOL.

Mr. Ed

Thats how I shoot, but its not the gun or ammo's fault.

brotherdarrell
03-03-2013, 10:11 PM
I ran into one of this guys nephews a couple years ago in an archery shop. Seems this kids family was heavy into raising fighting chickens and he had one that was extra special,....... it was half roadrunner!!!

All you could do was stare.

brotherdarrell

JIMinPHX
03-03-2013, 10:49 PM
Hornady did make a .429 bullet with a heavier jacket for the 444 and I think it is now made in the XTP line for use with the 444 and muzzle loaders.

I'm not familiar with that particular bullet. Is there any chance that you might be able to come up with a part number or a link to a data page? I'd like to learn more about it.

Thanks,
Jim

cbrick
03-03-2013, 11:23 PM
Every gun shop and range has such a fellow, I usually walk away unless he's trying to pass on something that would be dangerous.

The 444 can be well over a handful. I've shot an awful lot of different calibers in handguns and far and away the worst recoil, down right painful to pull the trigger was a 444. The 45-70 in a handgun is a ***** cat in comparison. It was in a RPM XL 10" break open single shot pistol. Jim Rock, owner of RPM had just finished making it for a customer for an African hunt and was testing it and let me try a few, two rounds was plenty for me. I'm 6 foot three, 230 pounds and not recoil sensitive and this thing spun me around 180 degrees, it hurt all the way up my arm, up my neck and down my back. It even hurt . . . hhmmm, never mind about the jewels.

If anyone is interested in picking up an RPM 444 XL, RPM still offers the 444 & others. I'll pass though, I was a fool once. RPM XL Pistol (http://rpmxl1.com/ourproducts_page.htm)

Yep, fond memories of the 444. :mrgreen:

Rick

Doc Highwall
03-03-2013, 11:51 PM
Jim, I just looked in the Hornady 9th Edition and #4305 FTX is made for the 444 Marlin. #4300 Interlock is good for 1500-2200 fps and both bullets weigh 265 grains.

Blacksmith
03-03-2013, 11:58 PM
I find this guy hangs out on other forums especially in the reloading section when the question of Cast Bullets comes up. Here is a sample of a post on another forum:

Lead is cheaper than jacketed or plated whether you order it or cast it yourself.
Another bonus is because it's softer than copper you can get higher velocity with lead due to less friction in the barrel.
He is always explaining why cast always leads barrels, or telling people stick on WW are the same as clip on, or saying you'll die from lead fumes from the casting pot, etc.

Maybe I should send them over here to straighten us all out?

gew98
03-04-2013, 12:05 AM
Idiocy knows no bounds

I would wager the sod is an engineer !.

Ed Barrett
03-04-2013, 12:16 AM
I have run into the guy who will tell you about all the guns he owns and half of them will shoot 1 inch groups and the rest shoot smaller groups. I sure would like to sell him some of the guns I have owned, one was a .32 win special which would shoot minute of barn door. These guys will never come to the range, and all their rifles have open sights because scopes get out of zero if you take them in a car.

garym1a2
03-04-2013, 09:16 PM
Sad thing is all the folks that like to listeon to them. I had a table at a gun show with my brother once. He had them 3 wide and 3 deep hearing his words of wisdom!

Blacksmith
03-05-2013, 01:47 AM
The 4th Edition of Ammo & Ballistics includes something called "Relative Recoil Factor" for each caliber listed. They say "Relative recoil factor is based on the muzzle momentum of the bullet and the expelled powder gas for a typical loading."

Here are some selected calibers with their Relative Recoil Factor:

Rifle
.223 Remington 0.80
.308 Winchester 1.95
.30-06 Springfield 2.19
.444 Marlin 2.54
.45-70 Government 2.43
.416 Rigby 4.27
.577 Tyrannosaur 8.31
.700 Nitro Express 9.00

Pistol
.45 ACP 0.93
.44 Remington Magnum 1.45
.500 S&W Magnum 2.95

Infidel
03-05-2013, 09:31 PM
I heard one today. I can understand a 20 ga. built on a 12 gauge receiver, but things started to smell funny when he said it would feed and fire both, out of the same barrel. And you could stagger the shells. This was the guy behind the counter. It was his personal firearm that happened to be at home.
I suppose you CAN stagger the shells. Put a 20ga. in, then put the 12ga. in, pull trigger, remove supporting hand and or face. Of course you can hit a running deer at 600 yds. with this gun too. Through heavy brush.

500MAG
03-05-2013, 09:43 PM
Was his name Frisby?

63247

GARCIA
03-06-2013, 05:08 AM
Its my brother in law!!!!
I swear it is!!!!

Tom

jeepyj
03-06-2013, 07:26 AM
Sometimes when I poke around my local shop I hear stories and think to myself no wonder there trying to regulate us to death these people are idiots. Recently after one such dude left the shop I asked the owner how many do you get like that his response was far to many. Sad but every town has them
Jeepyj

Jim
03-06-2013, 07:54 AM
Some day, in the (maybe not too?) distant future, our descendants will talk of stories we told them when they were young. "Pappy said Uncle Bill blew himself up with a case full of Bullseye, whatever that means."

Chihuahua Floyd
03-06-2013, 10:34 AM
I would wager the sod is an engineer !.

I resent that. I am an Engineer and I ain't nowhere near as smart (read stupid) as these guys. I think they are Architechs.
CF

Blacksmith
03-06-2013, 11:29 AM
Since you're an engineer maybe you could answer a question. How long does it take to learn to drive a train?:kidding:

BeeMan
03-06-2013, 12:44 PM
CF,

I guess it was a waste that those pesky engineers ever contributed to the development, manufacture, etc. of the personal confuser and inter-web.

Take a look at this thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?182089-can-you-make-priming-compound
If you have ever professionally worked with energetic materials, you may be inclined to either laugh or run in the opposite direction.

blackthorn
03-06-2013, 12:54 PM
They aint Engyeers er Arhytecks theys Pollytitshuns in training!

shdwlkr
03-06-2013, 01:46 PM
Ok Jim
I will agree that the 444 in a 20 inch lever action and full house will step right smartly into your shoulder but more so than a 338 win mag not sure of that.
As to the 444 working on elephants well maybe if you are within spitin distance. Who was it a long time ago that shot them with a 7mm rifle but he could shoot.
As to the '06 being only good for dear might be if it is an elk or even the big brown bears. Heck wasn't it back shortly after the 30-30 came out that a few brown bears met their end with that useless round?
Now as to the distance you can shoot and hit something almost all the time, well for me that can change with every new rifle, pistol what have you that I pick up even some that I have used for years you just have to get back in the groove so to speak.
I wish man knows the limitations of himself and his firearm. To bad that gentleman knows neither and also glad he is your neck of the woods not mine as I sure would not want him thinking I was his next trophy deer as his eye sight must be more than a tad off.

cbrick
03-06-2013, 02:33 PM
Heck wasn't it back shortly after the 30-30 came out that a few brown bears met their end with that useless round?

30-30 useless? Really? Ok, if you say so!

Rick

shdwlkr
03-06-2013, 02:41 PM
was being sarcastic Rick might be why I used to own so many as I just never could figure out why so many don't like the caliber.

Down South
03-06-2013, 03:32 PM
This same guy works at several chain sporting goods stores selling guns. I heard the same guy tell a lady over the phone one day just a few weeks ago that a 45 acp was too big for her. She could have been a gorilla for all he knew.

MT Gianni
03-07-2013, 12:53 AM
Then there is the other side with no interest in history. I remember a letter to the editor in Shooting Times or Handloader in the late 1990's asking about necking up a 22-250 to 6mm or 25 caliber. They walk among us.

Swamp Man
03-07-2013, 01:27 AM
Jim I think that guys name is Bubba. He informed me and my brother at the shop one afternoon a while back that the .44 mag didn't have enough knock down power that's why he traded his for a 9mm. My brother starting trying to tell him he was wrong I just shock my head and walked out to the car. I knew I couldn't fix the case of stupid he had so I didn't even try.

JIMinPHX
03-11-2013, 07:07 PM
Since you're an engineer maybe you could answer a question. How long does it take to learn to drive a train?:kidding:

Is that a wagon train or a mule train?

Chicken Thief
03-11-2013, 07:41 PM
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/weird.gif

Dale in Louisiana
06-11-2013, 11:02 PM
I laugh.

I have a buddy who's among the most arrogant people on earth. I have a membership at the local gunclub and he needed to sight in his rifle for an elk hunting trip, so we went to the range.

I brought my 1942 Grand with iron sights. He had a .300 Win Mag with a scope that could track Russian satellites. We set targets up at a hundred yards. I was piddling around. That Garand served well in military and NRA Highpower matches. A hundred yards and I could group an inch and a half, maybe two, with my Sierra boattail handloads.

Five rounds later, he didn't have a group, he had a pattern. At least all of them were on the paper. Problems ranged from planetary alignment to sunspots to the recent change in the Dow.

"Somethin' ain't right. Must be the ammo," he said. The ammo was factory stuff.

"Lemme try," I said. I nestled down in the best approximation I could muster of a sporting rest technique and popped off three, a little bigger than a bottlecap.

Sometimes it's not the gun.

Dale in Louisiana

mnkyracer
06-11-2013, 11:46 PM
Sounds like someone has a little "This is gonna hurt" problem.

Don Purcell
06-12-2013, 08:00 AM
Ah yes, the great Mr. Frisby from the old Twilight Zone.

Hickory
06-12-2013, 08:19 AM
Common sense ain't that common!
Nowadays, common sense is stupid thinking.

country gent
06-12-2013, 08:31 AM
The ones that really get me going and we have a few at the club I belong to, and seen it helping on my friends indoor rental range. These are the guys that have to shoot the uprights on the target frames. Or on the indoor range electrical outlets, a door knob down range, anything that stands out. Just to see "how powerfull their rifle is"/ All of that needless damage extra maitenece because of these people. At the club we use rail road ties for up rights to hold the target frames. we can replace them every 4 -6 months from these people. I have seen them use the nail heads for targets and then go down and see if their rifle could penetrate it. For years we had a target up at the farm and we never had to replace an upright in 20 years. Very seldom had to replace the plywood Target board. Nieghbors used it the family used it, and occasionally some would just stop and fire a few rounds into it. Mostly shotgun slugs went into it. Some people just dont know or dont want to know. I see show much slopy handling and saftey now with the new shooters ( not always a new shooter though) its pathetic and down right scary. Watch the shops after a Dirty Harry movie is on TV every S&W 29 on the shelves sells out. Here in Ohio a 375 H&H or 458 win mag sell like hot cakes. Every wanna be has to have one, nothing to hunt with it. not overly fun to shoot, and expensive for ammo. Ive seen the plinkers out with rifles that couldnt be enjoyable. One club member has a 338 lapua magnum puts together super loads for it and has never shot it past the 200 yd line at the club. I ask him once why he didnt go to a club in michigan on wensday night and shoot the 600 yd paractice there to really see what it was capable of. I got informed it was only a 300 yd round. At the club now when Im there and its time to go down range I stay at the firing line and someone pastes up my target ( mobility issues) I then watch and keep an eye on the ones that didnt go down, Handling ammo, firearms is very common. Had one guy start loading a lever gun so ( hed be ready when they came back up) Just what he told me. I jave seen them handling others rifles when they were down range also.

VintageRifle
06-12-2013, 08:59 AM
My favorite time at the range was when a younger guy and what I assume was his girlfriend and his mom went down range to setup targets. The only reason I knew they were there was that they popped into my sight picture.

Second best time was when 2 guys walked down range into my sight picture to hang targets.

Both instances occurred during live fire.

10-x
06-12-2013, 09:06 AM
Agree, these guys are everywhere. Sometimes I ask them what kind of rubber boots they have. Most don't get it, 1 or 2 why do you ask?

dakotashooter2
06-12-2013, 11:06 AM
You have to love the guy that claims the .44 mag is death on steriods for deer out to 200 yards, from a handgun but completely inadequate out of a carbine out any further than 50 yards....................

Nickle
06-12-2013, 11:28 AM
Funny thing is, probably more elephants have been shot with the 303 British than anything else. Doesn't make it right, nor smart. It's what the natives had at the time.

Now, will a 444 kill an elephant? Probably. Just don't try it when I'm there. I don't want to end up as the squishy stuff between his toes when it fails.

That guy does get around. Seen him and his entire family up here. Some of them are just amazing. Did you know they can keep 5 shots in a dime at 200 with a pump 280 Remington, offhand at that? Yup, that's what they said.

Nickle
06-12-2013, 12:28 PM
Funny somebody mentioned the same thing I had, before I posted. I hadn't gotten that far reading yet.


or saying you'll die from lead fumes from the casting pot, etc.

Now I know why I've felt sluggish lately. I must be dead. And here I thought it was the cast on my foot. Tell him I said thanks, now I know what's wrong with me. Hee hee, I know you don't believe him any mire than I do.


The 4th Edition of Ammo & Ballistics includes something called "Relative Recoil Factor" for each caliber listed. They say "Relative recoil factor is based on the muzzle momentum of the bullet and the expelled powder gas for a typical loading."



I can tell you there's many more important factors than that.

For a couple of years, I used 2 Remingtons for hunting. One for in the woods, a box stock Rem Mohawk 600 in 308, with a 3-9 scope. Plastic butt plate. The other, a Rem 722 in 300 Weatherby Mag. Yeah, that's a short action, so it was single shot. Car gun, used for 300-400 yard shots, zeroed appropriately. Stoeger stock, proper sloping cheekpiece, nice recoil pad. Rem 700 6.5 Rem Mag bolt too.

The 308 gave more perceived recoil from the bench, zeroing. Considerably more. Of course, 4-6 inch shorter barrel, 2 pounds lighter, no recoil pad, stock didn't "absorb" recoil.


This same guy works at several chain sporting goods stores selling guns. I heard the same guy tell a lady over the phone one day just a few weeks ago that a 45 acp was too big for her. She could have been a gorilla for all he knew.

He never met my ex-wife (since deceased). She was a veteran. They had her qualify with the 1911A1, so she could carry the 45 on payroll guard, instead of the M16. She qualified with the post Marksmanship Training Unit. They gave her an NM 45 to fire. She went 39 for 40 with it. Much better than I've ever shot a handgun. She never did warm up to the 9mm though, even though she owned a Glock 19. She hated that caliber.

Win94ae
06-12-2013, 01:20 PM
I was in my local gun shop when a guy was talking about the rare Win94ae 30-30 he had, and all the reasons it is worth thousands of dollars. I spoke up and told him about my Win94ae which I bought new in 1983... for $150. He then went on about how they hadn't made them until a few years later. I told him, "I must be mistaken." then let him go on and on about his rare magical rifle!

Dale in Louisiana
06-12-2013, 01:42 PM
I have come to the conclusion that it's not the 'certified idiots' that we need to worry about, it's that huge number of undocumented idiots.

And it's not just the shooting fraternity either. I have stories from the world of electrical power that would curl a knowledgeable man's hair.

dale in Louisiana

popper
06-12-2013, 02:02 PM
How long does it take to learn to drive a train? bout 10 seconds after you find the brake release. Worst I ever shot was a 1920's 5# 30" 12ga with a heavy dove load. Wonder what a load of 00 or a slug would be like? 3 shots & I gave it to BIL. MIL said it was 'her gun' and gave my the bullets for proof - box of paper .410s ( I loved her like my own). Suspect she sat in the truck when Bob hunted. I've pulled both triggers on a double before, no biggie. Those old guys must really have been tough.