Opinions on Best .224 cartridge with Cast

[floydboy]

I'm a Savage fan and all my rifles are Savages. I have once again caught the bug to build another rifle. I mainly shoot small calibers for plinking/varmits. Currently I have an older 22-250 which is a dedicated cast gun with a 14 twist barrel that does an excellent job for me. It shoots less than MOA out to 200 yds. For this build I'm thinking about I thought why not build the best .224 round I can. I want to stay with .224 boolits because that is what I have. 200 yard accuracy is more than I need. I'm not into competition shooting. I was thinking about a .222. I know I have to have a slower twist barrel and was thinking one of these might be found that wouldn't be too expensive. I have no real experience with anything but 22-250 in .224. Just looking for opinions. I doubt the 22-250 is the best choice. Thanks for your help....

Floyd

[felix]

222 is still tops. Reason: case capacity is just perfect for powder selection: 4756-4895 range. 14 twist is perfect too, unless going for more yardage than you suggest. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

The 222 with a 14" twist would be my 1st choice for a standard cartridge. Second choice for a wildcat CBC would be the 22-250 with the FL die shortened setting the shoulder back so the neck is the same length as the .222. Standard 22-250 reamers could be used to short chamber a 14" twist barrel and a .222 finish reamer could be used to lenghten the neck (or a neck reamer). Standard 22-250 dies (FL, NS & seating) could be simply shortened for reloading. The benifits are the case capacity to use a slower burning powder and the longer neck for better cast bullet support w/o having a long bore riding nose. The 225462 would be my 1st choice in cast bullets for either. I would expect excellent accuracy in the 2500 - 2700 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

I agree with the 222! Like Will Rogers said I never met one I didnt like. That said I must confess to being involved in a love affair with a 221 FB right now. I put this one together for the 22 cal only postal shoot a couple years ago and my fondness for it as a boolit shooter has only grown since then. It is absolutely dependable and is what I test my 22 boolits in. It is on a Stevens 200 ( Savage 110) with a Shaw varmint weight barrel cut to 17" with 1/14" twist. It may not have the neck length of the 222 but accuracy seems not to be lacking.
Even with heavy barrel its still light enough that I can pack it for hunting. I use it for early season coyote hunting when calling is the predominate method. For that and out to 250 yards or maybe a bit more its about perfect using swaged bullets made from the 22 rf jackets. They are devestatingly explosive yet minimaly destructive to hides. I bought a form die so brass is basicly free accept for my time. This is one little gun I just enjoy shooting very much and dont want to be without.

[runfiverun]

i think i'd prefer a 12 twist over the 14 with the 222.
dunno why it's just my feelings..
i also find the 220 swift to be more accurate than the 22-250 with cast. [shrug]
the 222 would be bout right, the magnum version might be the best of them all.

[floydboy]

Thanks guys...that's exactly what I was wanting to hear. Larry you really got me thinking about that CBC with the 22-250. I'm going with the 222 for this build but I've always found wildcatting fascinating. Something to look forward to. Now to find a barrel.

Floyd

[DLCTEX]

+1 on 222. Remington Mod. 722 does very well. I'm sure it's 1/14 twist IIRC.

[Bullshop]

BTW the fella that came in first place in the 22 cal only cast boolit postal match a couple years ago won with a Sako 222. He shot an incredably tiny 100 yard group.
In fact I averaged all the entries and the total average was something about .75" Thats why we like 22 cal.
I shot a 22 2R Lovell and came in 4th place.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks guys...that's exactly what I was wanting to hear. Larry you really got me thinking about that CBC with the 22-250. I'm going with the 222 for this build but I've always found wildcatting fascinating. Something to look forward to. Now to find a barrel.

Floyd

As I mentioned the .222 is my 1st choice for a factory cartridge. With a good 14" twist barrel you should do well.

Larry Gibson

[BCB]

Is there all that much difference between the 222 and the 223?...

I'm planning on working with the 223 in the near future and now I am thinking--but I don't think I am going to purchase a Super 14 in 222...

Thanks...BCB

[runfiverun]

it has the advantage of better neck length and support for better barell alignment.
the 223 case was designed to slam bullets into a chamber, fire, and get yanked out again.
it just happened to be fairly accurate and brass is plentiful.

[BCB]

Yea, that sort of what I figured I would hear...

Oh well, I am still going to try the 223...
(For the second time in 1/2 dozen years or so--1st attempt not up to my expectations)...

Thanks...BCB

[Larry Gibson]

Is there all that much difference between the 222 and the 223?...

I'm planning on working with the 223 in the near future and now I am thinking--but I don't think I am going to purchase a Super 14 in 222...

Thanks...BCB

Depends on what you want to do with cast bullets in either. The .223 has the short neck, a myrid of different throats and even in bolt guns the barrel twists are mostly 9 and 12" twists. That can make life difficult if you want to push top end velocities for the cartridge. Advantage is you can get milsurp cases relatively inexpensively (or could until the current panic set in) and load them by the bucket full.

The .222 on the other hand has a longer neck which will support most all cast bullets with the GC in the case neck and the bullet touching the throat. Cases are still commercially available and also are easily formed from .223 brass and the necks can be left thicker and turned for uniformity. Most .222s come with a 14" twist which most friendly to cast bullets upwards of 60 gr from 800 fps to 2600+ fps. The .222 is also slightly shorter than the .223 so with a .223 length magazine (if rebarreling) you have more mag length to seat the bullets out to touch the lands. My M700V in .223 (got it in '72) has had a lot of rounds through it, has already had the barrel set back and is good for maybe one more PD shoot. It will get a new 26" barrel with a 14" twist next winter and will be chambered in .222.

Larry Gibson

[Nobade]

Currently I am shooting a 222 with a 1:14 barrel. But I have had good luck with the 223 if I used a throating reamer to lengthen the throat so a cast boolit would sit out and be lined up with the bore and also sit at the base of the neck. The 1:14 is the deal, unless you want to shoot really heavy boolits because it lets you get perilously close to the 222's maximum allowable speed using regular cast boolits.

Oh, that said, my 6mmX222 is better. Easier to get top notch accuracy from, shoots a boolit 50% heavier, has more useful range, and is more unique if that matters. It's a 1:14 also.

-Nobade

[Bullshop]

Larry
I have to ask why a 26" barrel. I promis I wont argue the point I just want to know your reason so I can factor it into my next barrel length decision.
In my mind I am thinking the longer barrel is potentially less accurate because of increased dwell time.
If then for increased velocity I wounder if the 222 case holds enough of a slow enough powder to gain velocity from a longer barrel than standard length of say 22" which seems to have become quite populer in factory sporters.
If for heat disipation reasons then I can see how more barrel might help. If for a preferred weight or ballance I can see that too.
I mentioned that I am shooting a 221 and as you must know it was designed for a 10" barrel. When I cut my barrel to 17" I thought that was plenty of length for the type and volume of powder used in the cartridge especially with cast because for that we generally use faster powders than for jacketed. The 222 holds a little more powder than the 221 but not that much and that is why I am so qurious to know why you would go with a 26" barrel for the 222.
Not trying to be a wize acre here just trying to understand more better.

[303Guy]

I'm going to take a stab at that one if I may. In a single shot the 26" barrel sense balance wise. The reduced muzzle blast can only benefit accuracy and with a slightly too slow a powder there would be no velocity loss but there would be a reduction in launch velocity and enough barrel to burn the powder fully. How am I doing?

I have a question I would like to add to the thread - how would the 222 with cast do with a long 22lr, 1-in-16 twist barrel? (I once had plans for a single shot 22 hornet but that is now illegal to take into public hunting land). I also have what seems to be a .223 22lr barrel with deeper rifling.

[HARRYMPOPE]

i shoot current savage 22-250's with cast and get good results.I even won a CBA match with a 12 BVSS over 30 calibers.The 1-12 twist and the throat work well with most bullet designs.The 22-250 is my favorite 22 cal cast rifle.In sporters it has shat as well or better as any 222-223 or Hornet i have ever owned.In a custom gun a .221 Fireball Sleeved 700 i had once is what i would build again if i had a choice and throat it for the bullet i planned to use..

George

[JeffinNZ]

I think Larry nailed it really.

If, however, the action was a Martini I would favour K Hornet.

[Bullshop]

I wasnt thinking of the launch jet thingy. Maybe that and the increased dwell time would sort of cancel each other out as issues. On the other hand in my 17" barrel length 221 FB I seem to have no issues with launch jet as accuracy is superb. In it I burn the same powder types/burn rates that would be correct for the 222 just slightly less of it.
303guy
I think a 1/16" twist would seriously limit what will work good in it. At one time I was soooo close to buying an Anshuits 22 hornet but they only come with 1/16" twist and I just couldnt get past that sticking point.
I am becoming inclined to lean with HARRYMPOPE in that getting over my former thought of a 22/250 being too over bore for cast and actually trying it see much potential in the cartridge with cast.
I put a Rem 700 barrel originally chambered in 222 mag 1/14' twist on a Turk Mauser and re-chambered for 22/250. It is proving to be a good boolit shooter especially with the NOE 62gn bore rider.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

Good questions and I don't take it as any "wise acre" stuff at all. Very good discusion..........

303guy is on the right track. The longer barrel gives a better balance, less muzzle blast, etc. but mostly the longer barrel will give a better burn with slower powders for a longer and slower acceleration rate. If pushing cast bullets to top end velocities then doing that is important and in my experience is the accuracy advantage over the shorter stubby barrel which requires a faster accelleration to achieve the same velocity. I would use a medium weight varmint contour on the barrel. And if it doesn't work out you can always shorten the barrel to 24, 22 or whatever. Awefully hard to go add barrel if you start with the shorter one. Additionally if you shoot the throat out you have enough barrel to set back an inch or so to extend barrel life, if you catch the errosian in time. As mentioned the smaller cases do not have the case capacity for slower burning powders which is why I earlier mentioned the CBS based on the 22-250 as it has the capacity to use the slower powders like H4831SC, AA4350, RL19 and RL22 to advantage. However, the .222 with a longer 26" barrel has all the advantages I'd look for with a factory cartridge; case capacity, longer neck, etc.

The smaller cases do provide excellent performance up to a certain level but then are limited by their case capacity. I have often thought, as HARRYMPOPE has, that a 221 with a 22" heavy sporter barrel with a 16" twist would be ideal for the 225107 or 225438 at top end 221 velocities. I also am a fan of the 22 Hornet and have 4 of them; one with a 12" twist, two with 14" twist and one with a 16" twist. I had a very nice M788 with a heavy sporter 24" barrel with 14" twist and let a friend talk me out of it......been chasing that tail for some years and will catch it with the 14" twist 26" rebarreled M700V...........in .222 Rem.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

Another vote for 222, followed by hornet.
1Shirt!

[Iowa Fox]

222 is still tops. Reason: case capacity is just perfect for powder selection: 4756-4895 range. 14 twist is perfect too, unless going for more yardage than you suggest. ... felix

Plus that nice long neck on the cartridge case just works well.

[Bullshop]

Thanks Larry
I have been getting good results with my 221 but look at it more as an improved 22 hornet for cast.
I like the performance level of the hornet but with the 221 I have a stronger case that is vertually free since I make them from 223 range pick ups. I can hold the 221 to top end hornet performance levels at a pressure that yealds extreemly long case life as opposed to the short case life of the hornet at the same perofrmance level.
However I have a large number of new unfired 222 brass that I have avoided using to make 221 from and I bet you can guess the reason.
Until last year I did have a Sako 222 but the one I had was from the short time they used Marlin micro groove barrels and I felt I was not getting the accuracy with cast that a standard Sako barrel is cappable of. I cartanly didnt get the type of accuracy as the Sako 222 that won the 22 cal postal match.
Many years ago I had a Savage varmint rifle in the 112V series J 222 with 1/14" twist that was a wounderfully accurate rifle but at the time was not looking at it as a cast shooter. I would much enjoy having that rifle now for some testing with cast.

[Larry Gibson]

Many years ago I had a Savage varmint rifle in the 112V series J 222 with 1/14" twist that was a wounderfully accurate rifle but at the time was not looking at it as a cast shooter. I would much enjoy having that rifle now for some testing with cast.

Major sad face there.....bet if you had that rifle now we'd be discussing the merits of Savage vs Remington instead.............

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

:mrgreen:
I believe you are right.

[Doc Highwall]

I have one of the Browning 1885 Lowwalls in 223 with a 1-12" twist I am going to play with this summer.

I have the NOE 55gr,62gr, 70gr to try along with the SAECO#221. I should find something that works with one of these.

[floydboy]

Well this project just got a little more serious. I found my donor rifle yesterday. A savage M110 in .223. The barrel has been shortened and is too fast so I'm in the market for a .222 barrel in 14 twist or a .223 with a 14 twist I can rechamber. Thanks for all the great info guys. You've really been a big help.

Floyd

[floydboy]

Today is 8/11/13 and I thought I owed all who contributed an update. As mentioned in the last post I based my rifle on a savage 110 that started life as a 223. I put a 26" McGowen medium varmit tapered 1-14 twist SS barrel on it. Came with a three screw savage trigger that I was able to get to break very nicely. I use a 225415 waterdropped GC boolit cast from WW and a little tin lubed with felix lube.

Been shooting it for about 3 weeks now with not much luck. Used every powder recommended and then some. Was getting somewhat aggravated as all I read on this cartridge said any idiot could make one shoot with whatever powder was laying around. Nothing seems to come easy for me. I was getting desparate and yesterday after doing some interpolation I decided to try some 4064 which is my go to powder for my 22-250. I started with 17gr and worked up to 21gr one gr at a time. Fired 3 shots per load at 100yds.

My first string at 17 gr grouped 5/8" but left unburnt powder in the barrel. I was very surprised and happy. Some success at last. 18 & 19 grs proved to yield similar results. 20 opened up to 1.5" for some reason. I probably would have quit but already had the 21 gr loaded up and ready to go. The 21 gr grouped at 3/4" and finally all the powder was burned. At last success seemed at hand. If only I could repeat the results.

Today I loaded up 3 more rounds and with much reservation went and shot them. I am happy to report they to grouped at 5/8". I then went and loaded 10 more to sight my new toy in. After two sighting in shots I shot 5 more and they stayed with 3/4". I have found my load. Still room for tweaking but close enough for squirrel season.

Thanks so much to all of you that helped with the info and guidance. I just wanted you to know your time spent answering my questions wasn't wasted and was put to good use.

A happy cast shooter in Missouri....Floyd

[felix]

Floyd, where are you from in Swampeast MO? I was from NewMadrid during growing up days. ... felix

[303Guy]

Great news! Thanks for the update. Well, I'm still half thinking of doing something with one of my 22lr barrels. I'm kinda leaning toward a 222/30-30. I mentioned before I have a 22lr barrel with deeper rifling and a larger bore (I forget the dimensions). My long barrel with a tight bore might do fine for a 22 air rifle pellet firing gun. Just a primer and a small charge of powder or something.

[Alberta Separatist]

don't mean to hijack thread, but was wondering if anyone used Winchester 760 in their .22 cast loads?
have some laying around, but don't reload 30 - 30 anymore.

[Nickle]

Optimum case capacity for the .224 bore and accuracy seems to be from the range of the 222 Rem to the 22PPC/219 Don Wasp. The 223 is in the same area as the 22PPC and 219 Don Wasp, but has some drawbacks.

If you dug back further, I would think the 219 Zipper would be good, as would others.

Truth be known, there really aren't any real bad choices of caliber. There are less effective choices of rifles, certainly I wouldn't choose a lever action over a bolt gun for accuracy.

[floydboy]

I have some 760 and 4350 laying aroung and the way things were going they would have got tried if the 4064 didn't work out. I would imagine they are too slow to burn efficiently. Floyd

[jimb16]

I shoot a Rem. 700 BDL bull barrel in .222. J-word group are smaller than a dime at 100 yds. Cast shoot at right around 1 inch. I wouldn't trade it for anything else.

[MarkP]

79784
22 Hornet or 221 Fireball; The Hornet has a nostalgic cool factor going for it. Now a 221 Fireball with a 222 length neck would be interesting????

[1Shirt]

Nice pic MarkP, would have been even nicer with a K-hornet as well!
1Shirt!

[MarkP]

Nice pic MarkP, would have been even nicer with a K-hornet as well!
1Shirt!

79862 22 K-Hornet 2nd from Left between 221 FB & Hornet; I put some of my 17's and metrics in 4.6 x 30 mm, 5.7 x 28.

Cute aren't they?

[floydboy]

I started this thread almost three years to the day. I still have the 222 and it still shoots great. I have never lost interest in building the 22-250 wildcat CBC Larry Gibson described earlier in this thread. I have researched and have not found any mention of anyone doing it to date. I just bought another Savage to salvage an action from for some future project. Don't really have one right now. The action just became available and you can't get too many. Started thinking about this project again. I think Larry did a pretty good job of describing how to do it and the logic behind it seems sound. Barrel would be the main expense as I see it. Was just wondering what others on the forum might think before I really put any money in it.

You guys got any comments.

Thanks,,,,Floyd

[HangFireW8]

I think it would be hard to take advantage of all that case capacity with cast boolits... Larry is a big proponent of fillers, and may have had that in mind when he recommended the CBC. He's also not exclusively cast, and may have had a dual purpose cast/jacketed platform in mind.

Another thought, what source brass would you be using to get that long neck on a 22-250 type case? How many dies would be involved? I don't know the answers, hopefully it's something affordable, available and relatively close to the desired end result. IMHO wildcats should solve problems, not make them.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for being up your thread. Lots of good info. I do miss Larry and Bullshop.

[floydboy]

Hangfire,

You addressed my concerns exactly. I have done some looking into how much the 22-250 case would be decreased and it isn't that much. There maybe some advantage to the large case that I don't know about and that was what I was hoping someone could verify. I'm thinking if you can put enough of the slower powders in a 222 case to cause decreased accuracy why would you need a bigger case to burn more powder?

Thanks for your input.

Floyd