Lee 452 sizer magically shrinking?

[DrCaveman]

I beagled my lee swc 200 gr h&g 68 similar mold. I had noticed my stash of boolits were measuring .450"

Beagling worked great (way better than lapping!) and I gained several thousandths although boolits were a little out of round.

I measured .454-456 at max diameter and 452-453 at the seam. Figured I run these puppies through the 452 sizer and I get nice round 452".

Ran the lot (without verifying diameter early) and found every one of them to be .450" all the way around.

I have had this sizing die for a year and passed probably 5000 boolits through it. Quite sure that when I started (and as recently as December) the boolits coming out measured 452".

I also turned my pot temp down for this last run which I assume helped me get larger diameter. Then the sizer went and screwed all that up, back into the pot they go.

Anyone experienced this, or think of why it seems to have happened?

[fcvan]

That's just wrong! When it says .452 it should mean just that! I've been sizing mine with a Lyman .452 since the 80s. Now I'm thinking I need to check some again. Come to think of it, I haven't run my Lee 452-200 SWC in quite a while. I needed a good excuse, thanks Doc.

[DrCaveman]

What the hell. My lee .311" sizer just spat out a bunch at .309". I'd blame my calipers, but the boolits measured 312-313 before they went in. Maybe still my calipers at fault but two sizing dies in two days?

Must be me. Or maybe Lee.

[DLCTEX]

You need to use a micrometer instead of a caliper. I have to compare measurements between the two to get a feel for how to use the caliper to get a correct reading. Have you checked the die for leading? I bought a used Lee size die that had leading in it that was producing small boolits until cleaned.

[khmer6]

You need to use a micrometer instead of a caliper. I have to compare measurements between the two to get a feel for how to use the caliper to get a correct reading. Have you checked the die for leading? I bought a used Lee size die that had leading in it that was producing small boolits until cleaned.

That sounds like the ticket answer

[cbrick]

What the hell. My lee .311" sizer just spat out a bunch at .309". I'd blame my calipers, but the boolits measured 312-313 before they went in. Maybe still my calipers at fault but two sizing dies in two days? Must be me. Or maybe Lee.

I would blame the calipers first also, your alloy second.

Rick

[saint_iverson]

mic mic mic

[RobS]

Different alloys can give you different results. A softer alloy as an example at 10 BHN will size down and not spring back as much as harder boolit at let's say 18 BHN. Were you sizing was the same boolits made from the same alloy and air cooled vs. water quenched or were things different?

[DrCaveman]

I've been shopping around for a good micrometer, and due to the steep price (compared to calipers) I am taking my time so I get a really good one for a decent price.

I'm still hesitant to fully blame them, because I was able to take measurements after pouring which were in line with what I had previously experienced (talking about all sorts of boolits, nit just the 200 swc) and then after sizing, 30 seconds later, the boolits were too small.

I hadn't considered leading in the sizer since I never run dry boolits through any of them. I visually inspected for buildup but I'll bet a thin coat of lead could be hard to see. Think I'll run a bore brush and some lead remover, see what it does thanks for the tip.

As for alloy springing back, I really can't say with certainty that the alloy is 'the same' as before. But since I don't intentionally vary my alloy for any particular boolit, and at this point 100% of what I am melting are my own castings that I shot, they should all be pretty close. There may be something to this though, since I think I have snuck a little more pure lead into the mix in the past few months due to increased 22lr shooting. So it prob is softer today than last October.

Man, so many possibilities. Just when I thought I sorta had this cast boolit thing figured out, I have run into a half dozen brick walls in the past week and now have more questions than ever.

[runfiverun]

and as you figure each one out things become progressivly easier.
i'd look at lead in the sizer dies, it's not uncommon.

[archmaker]

Check pawn shops for one, you can find a decent one there. As for making sure it is right, I found J-bullets to be handy, I will measure a .308 and maybe a 270 (.277) to see if it is right, if it is wrong by the same amount then check the adjustment screw. (Of course I found one that was off by .005 once and pointed it out to the pawn shop owner and talked him way down as it was evidently 'broken')

[Abenaki]

Just a thought. Is your sizing die cold?
Are you doing this in a cold shed or garage?

Things tend to shrink when cold.

Take care
Abenaki

[DLCTEX]

I know several things that shrink when cold. I tried, but couldn't resist.

[DrCaveman]

Well it's not particularly cold...hell it was 65 today here. And sizer die is used inside, where it is rarely below 50... But one thing is shrinking for sure: my patience

I decided for now: screw sizing. Let's see where it gets me. So I load up a dummy round with my nice, fat lee 200 swc boolits (455! at apex, mostly, I measured) and get the OAL right for a clean barrel drop in, but kinda tough to push all the way home.

Run in through lee FCD, and as usual, the round drops in the barrel like butter and lands perfectly flush where it is supposed to. Then I pull the boolit and measure.

.450"

Ok, maybe these guys are right about FCD screwing up proper sizing and should be avoided sometimes. So next try, no FCD but I lowered the seating die to provide a slight crimp.

Loaded one, pulled it: .450"

So, the hell with any crimp. Backed out seating die and adjusted seating stem to get me back where I started: boolit fits in barrel flush, but requires a little force to get there. Loaded one, pulled it...

451"

So as best I can tell the frigging BRASS is swaging down my boolits. The barrel slugged at .452 (according to my calipers).

Btw why is a micrometer so inherently different than calipers? Both measure thickness, mine provides a digital display reading to the nearest 0.000". What is so important about the name of the tool?

More importantly, what is going on with my 45 rounds? I just melted down about 700 I had cast, sized, and lubed because they were 'undersize'. Now it seems that was a complete waste of time since my brass shrinks them anyway.

[.22-10-45]

Are you sure your bullet lube formula doesn't contain Preperation H?

[ffries61]

Btw why is a micrometer so inherently different than calipers? Both measure thickness, mine provides a digital display reading to the nearest 0.000". What is so important about the name of the tool?


It's not the name of the tool, a mic is just inherently much more accurate, and easier to get an accurate measurement with, even though a digital caliper has a resolution of .001" they are often not accurate to .001", any decent 0-1" mic with vernier scale is good to .0001-.0002"

Fred

[detox]

A dial caliper will work just fine if it is cleaned at jaws and zeroed before using. Some alloys will spring back, especially wheel weights with anitomy. Pure Lead mix will size more accuratly. That is why you should slug your barrel using pure lead only.

You may have lead build up in your sizer. Try to remove lead and try again. If that does not work, you can hone/polish your sizing die larger with 1000 grit sandpaper. Wrap paper tape around dowel then wrap sandpaper around that until it just slips inside die. Then hone using slow cordless drill. Resize your as cast bullets while honing so that you do not go too large

After casting let your bullets harden for a couple days then resize.

[DrCaveman]

Are you sure your bullet lube formula doesn't contain Preperation H?

Hmm well that would make it LESS of a pain in my **** so I'm gonna say no. Maybe it's a good idea however.

Seemed my boolits were shooting pretty good, then I had to go and get all picky, now they 'suck'. Could just ditch this whole attempt at improvement and settle for what I had, but that seems like losertalk.

Sorry if it seems I am wanking. Just getting frustrated and throwing money at the problem is not an option right now. Guess this is my version of 'kicking the dog' when maybe financial constraints are the real bummer.

[cbrick]

Just getting frustrated and throwing money at the problem is not an option right now. Guess this is my version of 'kicking the dog' when maybe financial constraints are the real bummer.

If you kick that beautiful lab I'll be coming over to have a "talk" with you.

It has nothing to do with the name of the tool. Calipers by design are not as accurate as a micrometer and were never intended to be, that's why they make micrometers. Add in having less experience for the correct feel and what was supposed to be accurate only to .001" can easily be accurate to .002" or in other words it told you nothing of what you were trying to learn.

Rick

[Echo]

Hmmm - how about shooting some of those 'undersize' boolits, and see what happens? They might obturate nicely, be accurate, and not lead. Won't know until you try...

[DrCaveman]

If you kick that beautiful lab I'll be coming over to have a "talk" with you.

It has nothing to do with the name of the tool. Calipers by design are not as accurate as a micrometer and were never intended to be, that's why they make micrometers. Add in having less experience for the correct feel and what was supposed to be accurate only to .001" can easily be accurate to .002" or in other words it told you nothing of what you were trying to learn.

Rick

Rick, if anyone kicked her I would have a 'talk' with them as well. No worries there, it was a figure of speech but I appreciate your defense of her, she is an awesome pal.

I understand your explanation of the difference between calipers and micrometers better than before...And will readily admit that I can get different readings depending how hard I force the jaws together. So I guess that I really can't trust the sucker for the accuracy I am now looking for.

Goal for the day: hit all the pawn shops and find a real micrometer to end this madness. Harbor freight had one for $35 but something tells me that wouldn't be good enough...

Echo, I have loaded and shot quite a few of these. And while they show good accuracy, I HAVE noticed lead in my barrel after the last few outings. My figuring is that if I can somehow get the boolits from the bench into the barrel without getting sized down below 452 it would stop the leading and improve accuracy further.

The pickle is that I have become a better shot with the 1911 as I get more consistent with practice and sheer repetition...prob shot 1800 boolits through her since buying in October. And talked to people, studied up on various techniques, dry fire while watching tv...but I still feel there is room for the cartridge to improve. Most work is at about 10 yds, where I can pump 24 rounds onto a 6" plate, most rounds falling into a 3" group.

Moving back to 25 yds the results are not as impressive. I'd like to change that, and I think I have identified a problem: undersized boolits.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[cbrick]

Rick, if anyone kicked her I would have a 'talk' with them as well. No worries there, it was a figure of speech but I appreciate your defense of her, she is an awesome pal.

Ok, I gave the dog my email address so . . .

The next thing you need to take a serious look at (after getting the micrometer) is your expander plug. One dimensioned for those ugly brown bullets won't be the same diameter as one intended for real boolits and will leave the brass too small, thus sizing the boolit when seated.

Rick

[DrCaveman]

Picked up a blue point micb1 for a very reasonable price.

Man, what a difference from the calipers! I can say now with some confidence that my calipers are slightly screwed, or at the least, there is a lot of rounding of figures going on in that tiny little digital brain.

Good news is that I reslugged my barrel and got a groove diameter of .4515". So I have a little more breathing room than I thought. Also good news that the pulled boolits measured .4517" or so, which I guess means I am better off than I thought. Also the boolits run through the sizer measure .4517".

Still I would like to get myself up to .4525". Maybe that ain't gonna happen cause I don't think they will chamber easily, they seem to need at least a run through the lee FCD even without any crimp in order to fall into the chamber.

In any event, the locating and purchasing of the micrometer was completely painless and seems to be giving me much more precise and repeatable measurements, I should have listened to you guys and done it a while ago.

Ok, enough ******** and thinking, back to loading. Thanks again.

[cbrick]

Good with the micrometer, now you should use it to measure your expander plug and see what that is. .002" under your sized bullet diameter.

Rick

[Raven_Darkcloud]

Goal for the day: hit all the pawn shops and find a real micrometer to end this madness. Harbor freight had one for $35 but something tells me that wouldn't be good enough...
The hf set of mics once calibrated work quite well. I bought a set and had it cal'ed at work. Surprisingly it was as accurate as the mitsutoyo's. They got tested many times over a 1 year period and held true to .00001 (tested by equipment at work) So that $40 set at hf is worth it if you can get it calibrated. The set bars that come with them though are useless. my one inch was 1.0015. As for the use of mics or calipers ONLY bring it to contact you should be able to slide the item out, other wise you are skewing the measurement.

[bosterr]

Midway USA has a RCBS mic for $32.49. Mine works great and I use it all the time. Works far better than my $150. dial vernier when measuring boolits. A no brainer IMO.

[DrCaveman]

shoot em and see how they shoot.

well, after "discovering" my undersized sizing die and also undersized boolits, and subsequently beagling, my accuracy has basically doubled.

my lee 200 swc boolits danced around the bullseye, a new sight to me. I daresay all this fretting was worth it, although I may have taken it a bit far in calling out my brass and expander plug as culprits. Still I could probably benefit even further by adjusting ye olde FCD and expander plug, but for now I am happy with the change I have seen from increasing my boolit diameter.

now I am back to square one however with proper OAL and crimp for the said 200 gr boolit. I had about 25% failure to return to battery, after struggling through this problem and (seemingly) conquering it after I got the mold. the ones that shot, they were peaches but I do require reliability. So maybe now it is time for a chamber ream, since my barrel likes the big ones but the chamber not so much. further crimp would just ruin my efforts (as I have been told a dozen times here) so that is not the route I want to take.

does this seem like the right move at this point, or do you you 1911-savvy cast boolit masters have a better idea?

[cbrick]

I think what you need now is an excuse to buy a new mold. A little different boolit style may fit your chamber better at the correct diameter. Besides, a new mold is always a good thing. I'd try that before altering a firearm.

Rick

[cajun shooter]

T he Lee FCD die will resize the entire cartridge case including seated bullet to factory spec so that each round chambers. This is causing a lot of problems for you.
All sizing dies are not what they are stamped. A .452 die will measure out at .4515 and so on.
If you want to improve your ammo, switch to a Redding taper crimp die.
If your bullets are at .4515 then you are most likly getting obturation in the bore as it is. If your alloy is with in reason that is.
You may go to any gun competition you want and I''ll bet you will not find any shooter using Lee dies.
Take a look at the bottom of that Lee die and you will see a very small carbide ring. This is your culprit.
The easy way to load for the 45ACP is to just take out your barrel and lay it on the bench. Take a completed round and drop it in the chamber and see if it chambers as it should. Later David

[johnnybar]

Mic a known jacketed bullet like a .308", .451" or .452". Sometimes there can be some play in a caliper at different points along the stem.

[DLCTEX]

The carbide sizing ring in the Lee FCD is easily knocked out and will avoid the sizing down of the boolit. However, mine for 45 ACP will never touch the case with .452 boolits unless there is a case bulge or a boolit seated crooked. It is a gauge to tell me something is wrong.

[DrCaveman]

Dlctex

Why would there be a case bulge? I ask because while I accept that I seat boolits crooked sometimes, I have noticed other times a bulge in the case. This is fairly regardless of boolit diameter, inasmuch as it happens within a lot of boolits sized at the same time...same alloy, same age, etc.

I do not sort the brass by headstamp, that may be the answer.

It does seem the FCD works pretty hard on the cases that show a bulge.

On a good note, I have worn off the headstamps on a dozen or so 45 cases, still rocking!

[David2011]

Electronic calipers are the last resort of measurement in my shop. They're great for checking a large number of handgun loads for OAL consistency and other semi-critical use. I prefer mechanical dial calipers for semi-critical (most reloading applications, rough machining) and micrometers for critical applications like measuring bore diameter, boolit diameter and machining operations.

David