9mm cast bullets resizing after being seated...

[jballs]

New member here. I did a search but couldn't find an answer.

I've been loading 45acp pretty successfully for a few months now. I finally got some 9mm cast bullets and after trying some loads out, I am finding I have bullet tumble out of both my m&p's(full size and compact).

I'm shooting 125g RN cast bullet(.356), 3.0-3.3 g Clays powder and S&B primer.
I get significant leading and wild inaccuracies. Factory ammo shoots fine in both guns.

I slugged both barrels today. The full size I get .358, compact 3.56. I've tried loading with no crimp at all but that doesn't help. I finally pulled a bullet that I had loaded and the bullets measured .353-354. Id say I found my problem, I just don't know how to correct it. How do I keep the bullet from being "resized" when I seat it?

The bullet I pulled had NOT been ran through a Lee Factory crimp die.

thanks

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

You need a larger case mouth expander.
Jon

[L Ross]

I'd also start out with a larger diameter bullet in the first place.

[detox]

What type of aloy are you using? If wheel weight lead you can make bullets harder by dropping them in water while removing from hot mold.

[detox]

You may be using too much taper crimp.

Try a quicker burnig powder such as Red Dot.

What lube are you using?

[jballs]

What type of aloy are you using? If wheel weight lead you can make bullets harder by dropping them in water while removing from hot mold.

I bought them from Indiana Bullet company. They are supposedly brinell 18. Is bullet hardness an issue?

How would getting a larger bullet help? Wouldn't they resize just the same?

[detox]

Try using less taper crimp

They may be too hard. A softer bullet should seal to the bore when fired.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Try what Jon said. Your boolit is getting swaged down during the loading process. See if any lead is shaved off during the initial seating and then at each step. I don't know what crimp die you are using or if you crimp while seating the boolit. Check the diameter at each step ( I know, it takes time ) but you will be able to see what the problem is. It won't matter what powder you use if the boolit is undersized.

[BeeMan]

What Jon and Charlie said. Expanders for 9 mm are made for those copper clad things. Try an expander from a 38 or 357 die set to expand the tapered section of the case body then use the 9mm expander to bell the case mouth. Seat another couple, pull them, and measure. Then you know if you are moving in the right direction.

[jballs]

They start out at .356. I loaded a dummy round and only seated the bullet, didn't crimp. I pulled the bullet out and it measured .353. I did this with a couple of rounds.

I can tell you that when I squeeze them with a pair of pliers, they deform MUCH easier than .45 bullets I have from Missouri bullet company.

[BeeMan]

Hard is not necessary, and may even be counter productive. Fit is everything and your bullets are undersized when they are leaving the case, because the case is squeezing them down.

[jballs]

Wow you guys are great. Thanks for the suggestions. So I need a different expander possibly?
So you're saying that even if they are very soft bullets, it won't matter? They case won't squeeze them down?

I adjusted the expander to go as deep as possible and it still squeezes the bullets down to .353.

[MtGun44]

If your sizer and expander are doing the correct job, you should have no problems with air cooled
wwts which typically run about 11-12 BHN. If the commercial boolits are actually 18 BHN and
you are sizing them down, you must have a REALLY small expander. Some have had good
results with an expander from a die set for reloading the .38 S&W cartridge. IME, my old RCBS
set works just fine for AC WWTs with .357 or .358 boolits.

Good luck. This may help.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Thanks for trying the search engine. You can do some good by browsing thru the stickies, too.
Bill

[462]

Are you using Lee's carbide factory crimp die, by chance?

I don't do 9 mm, but read a lot, and that die certainly accounts for a huge percentage of that cartridge's boolit loading problems.

If not, then a larger expander plug is needed, and it needs to expand the case the same length as that of the boolit.

[jballs]

the problem may be the expander I suppose. I'll see if I can order one to try.

[rintinglen]

Get a 38 S&W expander die--I bought one and Boy howdy, 9 mm cast problems disappeared. My RCBS dies squeeze the brass down a lot to compensate for the extreme variance that you get in 9 mm brass, and the 9 mm expander did not open the brass back up enough to avoid compression of my cast boolits. I special ordered a Lee 38 S&W powder through expander die and my skies are blue and days are filled with sunshine. Works great!

[flyingstick]

Jballs, I just went through the same thing. First, if you slugged your barrel at .358 I can't see anyway a
.356 is going to not lead. It's just too small. My barrel slugged at 3.56 and it takes a .358 boolit to not lead. I ordered from lee an expander part for a 38 special for $3 which will open up the case mouth enough & insert the boolit without shaving it down. Then just adjusted my die until the boolit 1. Would chamber and 2. would not squeeze/swage it down. You'll get it.

[gandog56]

That's kind of funny, since all my feed problems were FIXED by using the Lee FCD!

[MBuechle]

I load 9 & .40 on a Dillon 550. I had to make larger diameter powder funnel/expanders for boolits in both. They are about .002 under boolit size. That finally ended my leading issues in the 9.

[Shiloh]

I went with at harder boolit. This winter though, I acquired a case expander that is several thousandths larger than the factory expander and bell.

Shiloh

[Recluse]

That's kind of funny, since all my feed problems were FIXED by using the Lee FCD!

Apples to oranges.

There is an excellent article on brass "spring back" in one of the last two issues of Handloader, and although the article was written (primarily) for .44, it is applicable to any handgun caliber in which we need to wide the case mouth for boolit seating purposes.

:coffee:

[.22-10-45]

Hello, jballs..and welcome to forum! With my fairly soft range-scrap alloy, I have been using expander plugs right at bullet dia. for my revolvers. I too found case was sizing bottom band undersized. I have had this problem in my plain-base rifle loadings as well..and with their soft 20-1 lead-tin alloy I have went size for size in M die expanders. With gas-checked bullets, you can get away with a tighter fit.
Their was an article in a 1980's Handloader on loading cast in 9mm Luger..they were neck reaming case part way down to avoid this problem..sounds like alot of work & I would try larger expander first..a .38 Spec. Lyman M die should work.

[runfiverun]

don't matter what you try the boolits are too small to begin with.
first get the right diameter.
then work on not messing them up reloading them.

[a.squibload]

Same kinda deal, my 9mm boolits with 50/50 WWs/soft
cast at .358, size 'em to .357, use 38 expander plug.
No leading in a 380 pistol which should be around .355 to .356
(haven't slugged it, maybe tomorrow, or some day).

[Wal']

"The full size I get .358, compact 3.56."

First up, you have two different size slug measurements .358 & .356 on the second I take it ?

So you'll need a different size boolit for each gun.

Your boolits need to be at least 1-2 thou' larger, & as has been suggested above, either use a .38 expander or what I'm using, a Lyman 38P M neck expander Die, which is designed for the .38 boolit.

[jballs]

I've been reading more and more about bullet vs. bore diameter. I'm hoping since I have 3000 of the .356 bullets that I will be able to semi-accurately use them in my compact 9mm(slugged .356). I'll have to make or buy something bigger for my other gun I suppose. I'm gonna order the 38S&W expander to see if that help the situation. Thanks again!

[jballs]

Lee doesn't have just the expander die for 38 s&w, just 38 special. Will this work?

[Wal']

Yep. :)