Have you violated the law?

[hanleyfan]

I wonder how many of us have violated any local or state laws by storing too much powder or primers during this panic buying? When primers and powder come available at any place it is gone in a very short time, come on we all can not be that low on supplies that we have to buy anything we can find. I for one am not getting caught in this craziness, I will wait till thing normalize. everytime I get tempted to buy powder and primers and bullets that I would not use for 2 or more years I stop and take a couple of deep breaths and and tell myself you have enough, you have enough, don't do it. Oh by the way I would not admit to anything on here, you never know who might see it.

[Hawkeye45]

Not saying how much I have, but it is stored in more than one location for safety sake

Mr Ed

[Down South]

I also have several storage locations. Not for safety. I just want to be able to reload at which location I happen to be at.

[dragon813gt]

If you have more than 10k primers in your residence you're in violation. If you have more than twenty pounds of powder stored in one place and it's not in a properly built wooden box you're in violation. If you're storing more than fifty pounds then you're in violation.

Most reloaders aren't following the proper storage requirements/limits regardless of the current situation. I don't know if it was on this forum or another. But someone posted pics of their reloading room after cleaning it up. The amount of powder and primers was well beyond the limits. And the powder wasn't in a proper storage cabinet.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Where are these laws at? What about loaded ammo? Ignorance of the law is no excuse but it is bliss:)

[dragon813gt]

There is no limit for small arms ammunition storage that I'm aware of. Your insurance company might beg to differ if you're storing pallets. Not knowing the NFPA guidelines is not an excuse they want to hear either. And there are municiplaities that have stricter limits than NFPA. There are areas in MD where you can't legally store an eight pound jug of powder in your residence. Last thing you want is an insurance claim from a fire denied because of your hobby. It has happened before and usually leads to financial ruin for the homeowner.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Seems like the British had some restrictions on Colonials how much of whatever they could keep at home. The rest had to be stored at approved "arsenals" under the careful eye of regulators.
So if the government tells you to turn in your "extra" ammo" ya gonna do it ?
At Boston the "Lobster Backs" ordered the home owners to turn in their firearms and powder and lead. Many complied beleiving the "Red Coat" promise they would be free to leave the occupied city if they did so. Hundreds of arms were turned in and no one was permitted to leave.
Sorry I have little but contempt for a government that does not trust an honorably discarged citizen. When I need the local government to look out for my personal well being I will already be beyond help.
Mike in Peru

[45nut]

Perfectly appropriate vision Mike.

[45bpcr]

Small Arms Ammunition and Primers, Smokeless Propellants,
and Black Powder Propellants
11-1 Basic Requirements.
11-1.1 In addition to all other applicable requirements of this
code, intrastate transportation of small arms ammunition, small
arms primers, smokeless propellants, and black powder shall comply
with US Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials
Regulations, 49 CFR, Parts 100-199.
11-1.2 This chapter applies to the channels of distribution of and
to the users of small arms ammunition, small arms primers, smokeless
propellants, and black powder.
11-1.3 This chapter does not apply to in-process storage and
intra-plant transportation during manufacture.
11-1.4 This chapter applies to the transportation and storage of
small arms ammunition and components.
11-1.5 This chapter does not apply to safety procedures in the use
of small arms ammunition and components.
11-3 Smokeless Propellants
11-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 lb.
(11.3 kg) in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of
Transportation, may be transported in a private vehicle.
11-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb.
(11.3 kg) but not exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), transported in a private
vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having
wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
11-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb. (22.7 kg) of smokeless
propellants in a private vehicle is prohibited.
11-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants in quantities
not exceeding 100 lb. (45.4 kg) may be reclassed for transportation
purposes as flammable solids (Division 4.1) when packaged
in accordance with the U.S. Department of Transportation
Hazardous Materials Regulation (49 CFR, Part 173.171), and shall
be transported accordingly.
11-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding
100 lb. (45.4 kg); or not packaged in accordance with the regulations
cited in 11-3.4 shall be transported in accordance with the
U.S. Department of Transportation regulations for Division 1.3C propellant
explosives.
11-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers
approved by US Department of Transportation.
11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
11-3.8 Not more than 20 lb. (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in
containers of a 1 lb. (0.45 kg) maximum capacity shall be displayed
in commercial establishments.
11-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be
stored as follows:
(a) Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) but not exceeding 100 lb.
(45.4 kg) shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of
at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness.
(b) Quantities exceeding 100 lb. (45.4 kg) but not exceeding 800
lb. (363 kg) shall be stored in non-portable storage cabinets having
walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb.
(181 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in any one cabinet and
cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m)
or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
(c) Quantities exceeding 800 lb. (363 kg) but not exceeding
5,000 lb. (2,268 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in a building,
provided the following requirements are met:
1. The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized
personnel.
2. Smokeless propellants shall be stored in non-portable storage
cabinets having wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness
and having shelves with no more than 3 ft (0.92 m) of separation
between shelves.
3. No more than 400 lb. (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet.
4. Cabinets shall be located against the walls of the storage room or
warehouse with at least 40 ft. (12.2 m) between cabinets.
5. The separation between cabinets shall be permitted to be
reduced to 20 ft. (6.1 m) where barricades twice the height of the
cabinets are attached to the wall, mid-way between each cabinet.
The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft. (3 m) outward, shall be
firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in (6.4
mm) boiler plate, 2 in (51 mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block.
6. Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by
the US Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable
solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a
fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
7. The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system
installed in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of
Sprinkler Systems.
(d) Smokeless propellants not stored in accordance with 11-3.9
(a), (b), and (c) shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed
and located in accordance with Chapter 6.
Reprinted with permission from NFPA 495: Explosive Material Code,
Copyright ©1996, National Fire Protection Association, Quincy, MA
02269. This reprinted material is not the complete and official position
of the National Fire Protection Association on the referenced subject
which is represented only by the standard in its entirety.

[Olevern]

Yeah, I'm waiting for a call from the local or state police, as I notify the two gun clubs I belong to each time I go down I-81 thru Virginia for the purpose of taking orders for GEOX black powder. I take orders and stop and buy up to 25 lbs on my way back north, distributing them after arrival back home. So, inasmuch as I purchase from the same vendor each time, over the past several years I have purchased hundreds of lbs of black powder. Just waiting to see when they come to see where it all went. I will invite them to the monthly meetings of both clubs and let them take their own polls of who the powder went to, when I distribute it, I throw the paper with the persons names on it away.

I am surprised I haven't been questioned on this as of yet. It's all legal, but I certainly can see where it might look suspicious if someone checked this business' records, I don't think I could shoot up that much black powder in two lifetimes.

[P.K.]

No visits from an alphabit agency yet, so I can't be doing much wrong. Although IMHO it's none of their business.

[DLCTEX]

I'm the only one who actually knows how much I have, but I'm sure I'm in compliance. If I have a disastrous I'll see if I can remember how much of each I had. We have no local ordinances and I have never heard of any state requirements for non commercial storage. Rest assured I don't want to risk my supply as much as anyone.

[starmac]

I'm pretty sure I am in violation of some sort of law every day that I get out of bed, A guy would go plum crazy worrying over it, if he tried not to. lol

[1Shirt]

It is just about impossible to not break laws of some kind every day, mostly by not knowing what the laws are. Guarantee if you drive a vehicle, you are going to break law of some kind (speeding/stopping/failure to yield/seatbelt/headlights/etc.etc.etc.
If you are a pot smoker, that is an obvious. If you are an under age drinker that is an obvious. If you carry concealed without a CCW permit it is obvious. And lets not forget the 11 or what ever the number of million law breaking illeagles in this country. And the list goes on and on. One of the major problems in the country is that law makers make laws, usually out of response to raised voices of small numbers of people and seldom the majority of the people. When was the last time any significant number of laws were repealed????????? When was the last time you heard of laws being reviewed for possible repeal?????????
1Shirt!

[gon2shoot]

I generally only keep a box or two of ammo for a gun I might get someday.

[Ickisrulz]

Does NFPA guidance have the weight of law for private residences? Do DOT directives apply to our homes? Unless adopted as law by a state or local government, then no they don't. Heck, I don't even have to follow the NEC where I live.

[bob208]

everything i like is bad for me

everything i am good at is illeagle

[jaysouth]

The day would be totally wasted unless I broke at least one law. When I was active in the restaurant business, it would be impossible to daily not break one of the thousands of laws applicable to that business, be it zoning, fire, sales taxes, use taxes, employee withholding, tax remittance, and on and on. When I left in 2003, there were almost 30 government agencies that thought they were there to help me run my business, endure visits from them, file reports or send them some money.

I enjoyed matching wits with and evading each and every one of the parasites that were important because they worked for some level of the gub and their millions of conflicting and confusing regulations.

[C.F.Plinker]

The section of the NFPA quoted above is from the 1996 revision to NFPA 495. Revisions may (or may not) be made every 3 years. By 2010 NFPA allowed for residential storage of up to 20 pounds of black powder if in the original 1 pound containers and stored in a wooden box made from 1"nominal boards, up to 20 pounds of smokeless powder if in original containers (may be increased to 50 pounds if the original containers are stored in a wooden box made from 1" nominal boards) and up to 10,000 primers if in original containers (may be increased to 150,000 if stored in 1.4S containers).

Many locations just adopt the NFPA codes as part of their building or fire codes. Other locations may have more restrictive codes or laws regarding storage of smokeless and black powder and primers.

There is a 2013 revision but I haven't been able to locate it on the net where I could look at it free. Does anyone have access to the 2013 version? The NFPA seems to guard their codes very seriously and the text of recent versions is hard to find unless you pay to become a member of NFPA.

[shooter93]

Well thank God I keep all my primers, powder and loaded ammo 45 miles from where I keep my guns and in an underground Federally approved ammo storage site.

[bearcove]

Don't have any powder or primers. Just a box of 30-30, half of that I used to sight in.

[Harter66]

Kinda funny how its OK to store 15x 1.1D if you put it in 1.4 containers.

Makes me in compliance. N A T O 1.4S is 30/50/20mm ammo cans. Many would argue that makes an impact sensitive de vice.

I've a friend that could probably provide me w/a copy appropriate to depot use anyway.

Just as a geewiz, anybody been in a building 17million rounds of small arms ,500klbs of smokeless powder , 100k lbs of H E ? Worked around and in compliance w/codes for 17yrs DoD DOT and DoA. Want a thrill? 40k lbs of 60yo granulated t n t and a nail gun. Yep I loved that job.......

[km101]

At current prices, I cant afford enough primers or powder to be in violation of the law! :) But just as soon as I can afford it it will be again!

[xs11jack]

Maybe I am a bit senile or worse, but it seems to me that if a state, county or city government hasn't adopted the NFPA guidelines as law or something like it, the government people can't touch you for any sortage problems that they percieve you have violated.
Jack

[dragon813gt]

Technically, yes. If your state/county/township has adopted International Building Code then they adopted NFPA. And while you might have legal grounds to not follow it. Do you have the money to fight your insurance company in case of a fire? Not saying they would do it. But I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to deny a claim due to storage of smokeless propellants/primers/black powder.

[bearcove]

I'd like to see them try and count plastic powder cans after a fire. I had a house fire years ago and the insurance investigator said he could tell I was a reloader cause my rockchucker was like the one he has. Just black and kinda melted from the heat of my reloading bench burning. That and the rest of the house.

[MtGun44]

What is a "14S" container for primers?

Bill

[HATCH]

Everyday......
One law or another....
I am busy working on correcting the situation by putting 5 to 8 grains of powder in a brass case with a piece of lead for the lid.
Only got 20k more to do before i am in compliance.

[6bg6ga]

With the current BS brewing about guns laws I seriously doubt that I will give it much thought. With all the rules and regulations you cannot even store gasoline for your mower or snowblower in your garage. Do I really care ....hmmmm I'll have to think on that one.

[Down South]

I drive 60 in a 55 mph zone a lot so yes, I violate the law. Probably several other laws out there that I violate too.

[Boerrancher]

well I will never have enough to exceed the guidelines unless they make me start counting cast lead round balls for my ML.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Mal Paso]

I'd like to be in violation but the last 4 years have been tough. Anybody who feels overburdened just let me know.

[Jeff R]

I had a bunch, but I lost it all in a canoeing accident.
JR

[firefly1957]

45bpcr
Can you post the whole law it was short on source.

[dragon813gt]

Just look up NFPA explosive materials code. You will get a hit from the 2001 NFPA book as well as one from SAAMI. The most NFPA book I have is from 2006 and it's the same as what's online. I'm waiting for my employer to get the newest edition so I can scan the pages out of it.

[millsa2]

1'' Thick Wood cabinet???? 2 3/4'' Plywood Glued Together????

[dragon813gt]

The requirements get a little screwy. You also have to take into account OSHA's guidelines. Which deals with rabbeting the joints and using flathead wood screws installed in two directions. There are latch and door construction requirements as well. The plywood must be exterior grade. There is a company that makes wooden crates for civil war reenactments that will meet the requirements with a few dollars in improvements. Those are made out of solid wood.

[geargnasher]

Not unless you have a Chinese tape measure.

Gear

[Ed Barrett]

I guess I'm too old, I remember when Hodgdons would mail surplus powder in a plastic bag inside of a cardboard box. I think it was only 20 pounds at a time. We never had any problems back then, when I got my first box of 4895 I thought that it would be enough for my 30-40 rifle for the rest of my life. This was about 1954.

[firefly1957]

My point is that these are not laws only code suggestions they are enforced only in some cases (Employment/commercial) and not criminal law.

[41 mag fan]

Not worried about me, myself and I violating any laws.

I'M TIRED OF STUPID LAWS VIOLATING ME!!!

[Phoenix]

You Commit Three Felonies a Day

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842.html

[Infidel]

I'd like to know, what idiot thought that a 1" thick wooden box would slow fire down enough in a hot fire, to not ignite the contents. Furthermore, if it does ignite the contents, I'm certain that your Red Ball Keds can't outrun the flying wooden shards that have now become biodegradeable "Boolits".

[dragon813gt]

My point is that these are not laws only code suggestions they are enforced only in some cases (Employment/commercial) and not criminal law.

No, they are law if you're state/city/municipality has adopted international building code. Which is almost all of the north east. I don't know about other areas since I don't live there.

They also did testing on the proper construction of the containers. It wasn't one that was just thrown out there. NFPA is written to protect the first responders and the people living/working in the dwelling. Fire is something no one plans for and no one wants. But there are a lot of stupid things people do in their homes that will make one worse if it happens.

Do you have a fossil fuel burning heater in your home? Where do you think a lot of the installation requirements come from? It's from NFPA. Most people outside the trade don't know this. I have to take a course on it once every five years to keep one of my certifications up to date. As much as I hate the government meddling in my life I don't mind the NFPA because it isn't half assed and is well thought out.

[firefly1957]

dragon813gt Yes that is what i would like to see were it actually is in criminal code those "LAWS" you are talking about are civil not criminal laws.