So, is it gouging?

[milrifle]

I went to a local gun store today to see if he had any primers. I usually buy CCI LR primers and got 1000 from him maybe 3 weeks ago for $37.00. He had been out for a month before that. He seemed to have plenty that day and I'm sorta on a budget, so I only got the 1000. Today I go back and he doesn't have CCI. He had a few boxes of 100 of Wolf and Federal for....get this.....$7.95 and a box of 1000 Federals were $59.95. That's better than 50% in less than a month. So I'm wondering is it him that's gouging? Is it his supplier that's gouging? Is it really gouging? The guy still has bills to pay even if he can't get stock to sell, so maybe he has to make what he can on the stuff he can get to sell? I don't know. I'm not a business man and certainly not an economist, so I don't really know what to think of it. I did however pass on the $60 Federals. I have about 1400 in the shop and usually shoot less than 200 rounds a month, so I'm gonna wait until I need them worse of else find some cheaper. I did buy a lb. of RL-7 for $29.95. Same price as the last can I bought back when I got the 1000 primers for $37.

[DGV]

He is gouging you. Wholesale Large rifle are about 26.00/1000

[Trapperscott]

Seems pretty high to me. I'm paying 27.00/1000 for CCI small pistol here in Ok.

[jonk]

Gouging is when you (IMHO) charge more for a given item than what the market would normally support AND when said item is needed for daily life- gas, bread, that sort of thing. So when after 9/11 people panicked and the local gas store manager upped all prices to $5/gal, that was gouging. For all that we love it, shooting is a luxury. It's basic economics; as supply remains constant or dwindles and demand goes up, prices go up. He's selling his product for a price that will sell, if they won't, he'll drop his prices. If they go so fast as so he can't keep his product on the shelf, he'll raise them. It's savvy business.

The stupid thing to do would be to NOT raise his prices, sell out his entire inventory, and not be able to replace it for the foreseeable future.

[MtGun44]

The concept of gouging is BS. If you don't like the price don't buy. Any seller
that doesn't try to get the market price for what he is selling is foolish.

Rare items cost more. Common items cost closer to what they cost to make.
Supply and demand. If there is lots of supply relative to the demand, prices
drop. If there is more demand than the supply can meet, the prices rise.
This is a normal healthy market and allocates goods to the best use.

If those primers were still $26/K; I'd buy 10K at least. Good for me but not
for the folks that don't already have a good supply laid in like I do. At $60/K
they will get some and I will buy none, so they will go to the people that really,
really want them, not a guy (like me) just padding his inventory.

Why is a K38 more expensive than a used Glock 17? Is that gouging?
The guy probably only paid $125 for the K38 when it was NEW.

Bill

[bigmike13]

Stay calm wait for the market to correct itself, then when it does, buy an extra box or two when you can afford it and soon you will have enough to last you through the lean times

[Phoenix]

Being that we have no way to know what he paid for them. We cannot make such a determination. Gouging is an overused term and in most cases does not apply.

He could have gotten them from someone else who bought cabelas out 2 hundred miles away. Since there was demand for them and they were not available anywhere in the normal supply channel he paid a premium to have something on the shelf. I have to alternately source things all the time due to unavailability. Now in my case I usually end up selling the items for cost but that is because I have a few very loyal customers that buy everything from me. In a retail location setting you cannot do that. It is good business to have something that is in great demand in stock as it may lead to other purchases.

Honestly no one here knows what he paid. If he paid someone $50/1000 off the tailgate of their pickup truck then how can you fault him for selling them for $59/1000 he is the one taking a big risk as if people didn’t buy them he would lose big on them later. I am sure he checked gunbroker and other places and decided he could sell them even at a higher cost. There are definitely store owners that are unethical in these situations however. I cannot make such a determination without allot more facts.

When someone is charging $5.00 for a bottle of water immediately following a natural disaster you can bet it is more likely he is gouging. However you still don’t know if there was no water to be had and someone who drove in with a truckload of bottled water from 300 miles away just sold them to him for $4.00 per bottle. If it is too much don’t buy it that is how to best show your disapproval.

[tomme boy]

Wholesale is lower than $26. More like $17 from what I have seen. Primers here are $26-$42/1000

[dverna]

I do not believe even "necessities" should be protected. The market establishes price. For example, I do not see fuel as a necessity.

I definitely do not feel sorry for someone needing gun stuff and whining about gouging. How many times has this happened??? And people NEVER learn and stock up when things get back to normal. I had guys at the gun club laugh at me when I bought stuff in bulk and then, when things go to sh!t, they want me to "help them out".

[Silverboolit]

How lucky we are here! I am not paying 30-50 cents a piece for boolits that I make for a cost of maybe 2-3 cents. Powder has not really gone up here. Still around 20.00 per pound.

If primers have jumped from 2 cents to 6 cents each, that is only 2.00 per box of 50 rounds. That is not a lot more of a price hike than,say, .22LR doubling in price in the past two months.

I would not let 2.00 per box ruin my hobby as I am still getting a quality product for the price paid.

[mikekj]

Being that we have no way to know what he paid for them.

It's not only what he paid for them, but what it may cost to REPLACE them.

If I pay $1.00 for product (A) that I normally sell for $2.00, then TSHF, I now may pay $2.00 to be able to replace product (A). If you visit my store for product (A), don't expect to pay the old price of $2.00.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Gouging is when you go into a gun shop and the owner/manager is busy putting $45 per thousand price stickies over the ones that read $25 per thousand yesterday.
One of the local shops went in early one morning so he could reprice all of his AR's and AK's. He marked them up $750 across the board. That's gouging.

I often wonder who is doing the most harm to the shooting sports, obama or the firearms and components industries...?

[rbuck351]

You can only gouge those willing to be gouged. No one is forcing anyone to buy at these prices and if no one bought , the price would fall like a rock. I have not been gouged on any gun related stuff as I will not buy at those prices.

[Jeff Michel]

The purchaser establishes the price, if you buy, you force the price up. Don't buy the price drops. The law of supply and demand. Just buy what you absolutely have to have to get by for now. The price will eventually drop if they can't sell what they have in inventory.

[johnnybar]

Gouging is when you go into a gun shop and the owner/manager is busy putting $45 per thousand price stickies over the ones that read $25 per thousand yesterday.
One of the local shops went in early one morning so he could reprice all of his AR's and AK's. He marked them up $750 across the board. That's gouging.

I often wonder who is doing the most harm to the shooting sports, obama or the firearms and components industries...? It's not gouging, as you call it, if he can't order more from his distributor like the shop I checked in on last week. I would challenge anyone to pay the lease, utilities, labor, insurance, feed the family, pay the mortgage, truck payment, wife's car payment, phone, cable tv......... with 10% of your normal inventory availability. We humans are very good at figuring out how poor our condition is and miserable at figuring out other's...woe is me syndrome. We've all done it. None are innocent...I doubt. But with experience, comes wisdom that the grass isn't as green as it looks and if we do go over to that nice green side...someone will put a weed eater in our hand and holler, "Get busy!" lol Maybe some are cashing in week after week but, my local shop has been pretty bare shelved for a while now and he's going to have a hard time trying to sell what's left on his shelves...dust!

[762 shooter]

That's capitalism gents. You have to take the good with the bad. Just think of it as an expensive history/economics lesson. As I've said before, this world does not owe you a consistent supply of anything.

Wake up.

762

[koehlerrk]

Gouging, not gouging, that is the question. The answer is, anything, from gas to primers to cars to houses, is only worth how much you can convince someone to pay you for it. Remember those stupid "Beanie Babies" of the 90's? Sure... some of the super-rare ones sold at the store for $5, then were determined to be worth $3000... but in reality, unless you had someone hand you $3000 for it, it's still only worth $5.

The apparent price goes up due to supply and demand. Right now, components, ammo, and firearms are all high. Not a big deal for me, I have enough on hand for a while, I can wait until the market calms down. What's holding everything up price wise is the folks that are afraid they'll never be able to buy more, so instead of buying one brick of 22s, they buy 4 or 5. After a while, the supply chain gets sucked dry because demand is 4-5 times what the production rate is. Since the end dealers can't get more, they jack up the prices to try and make it through until demand subsides and the supply catches up. Because once that happens, the guys who bought 4-5 bricks of 22s likely won't buy any more until they run out... and that dry spell after this deluge may be the death of a lot of the small gun shops.

[Reload3006]

Its gouging. Period for all the gun shops and reloading component suppliers out there. Yes I will pay it if I absolutely have to. But I will also remember who you are. This run on supplies will be over sooner or later but when it is I won't be back to your shop. So if you think its great to gouge the heck out of your customers for short term profit go ahead and do it. But you may find that you have no customers in the future. There are a lot of companies out there that are not gouging. Midway,(their prices are on the high side anyway but they haven't increased) Powder Valley Inc. Natchez They will continue to get my business. The others well I have a memory. So does most of the shooting public.

[Hickory]

You must always keep in mind the theory of supply & demand.
With that in mind, you need to realize that it may have cost him
50% more to replace the primers today then it did 3-4 weeks ago.
No one wants to operate a business at a loss, without profit he my not be able to restock his shelves.

[Fishman]

I don't like it but I understand it when a businessman charges what the market will bear. If the market is full of unprepared customers with disposable cash, so much the better. I do think it is a moral issue when someone who has a livelihood buys up all the stock at their local store and then resells it. That approach creates a shortage and then the profit that follows. It does not increase the intrinsic value of the product in any way. These folks may or may not be gun owners but one things for sure, they are doing wrong.

This does not include those who purchased something in the past and then have decided to resell now at inflated prices. These people did not create the shortage and in fact, are providing additional goods to address the shortage. There is value in adding additional product into the market and this acts to keep prices lower (relative of course).

It is up to each person's conscience as to how they conduct themselves in this situation. Again, the gunstore owner who has to pay his bills 6 months from now and is facing low or no stock availability has to get the most from the stock they have.

[hunter64]

I live in Northern Canada so some of the prices are of course higher here because we don't have the same amount of population.

There are a few gun shops in my city that are gouging right now. One big shop is selling primers for $60/1000 and two others are $65.00/1000 each. I have a nephew that works in a bigger sporting goods store so I stopped in to see how much they were selling them and they still are selling them for $42/1000 so I had him check how much they paid for them and there cost was $38/1000 so more than reasonable markup which is normal for a business.

Before the Sandy Hook **** hit the fan most places were selling primers for 40-50/1000 so yes in my area there is gouging going on.

[Wis. Tom]

It cannot be easy for all these gun shops, to be sitting with nothing to sell. You better quit worrying on if they are gouging you or not, and start praying that they make it through this, and are still in business next year. This govt. would love to see every one of them boarded up and closed, so just remember that, and then watch what those fees do, on shipping primers and powder next.

[762 shooter]

Gouging and hoarding are terms used by the unprepared.

Oops! Did I type that out loud?

762

[Reload3006]

I got caught with my pants down when Obummer got elected the first time. I was prepared this time. Do I have everything I want No do I have every thing I need Yes. Do I have enough to outlast this craze ... I think so. So my position is for the shops taking advantage of the craze for their own gain. Hey its a free country and its capitalism at its finest. But I can practice that same form of capitalism by not patronizing their businesses anymore. They can take that to the bank I won't be back.

[captaint]

I'm really glad I kept my supplies up when we didn't think we had a problem. Truth is, this can happen any time, anymore. If people didn't panic and buy 10 times what they need, we wouldn't have this issue. So, I won't buy anything till the prices get real. That's all. Mike

[Bwana]

All this talk of people buying large quantities of reloading supplies reminded me of something. About thirty years ago there was an ad in the sporting goods section of the newspaper (Remember those days?). This individual lived in an exclusive enclave in west OKC called "Brownsville" after the developer. I went there to get some primers. He had the stuff in his three car garage and had about 500,000 primers. I bought 5000 CCI lp primers for $7.00 per thou. He had powder and bullets also. i don't remember why he was selling; but, I do remember that stack of primers.

[Shiloh]

Stay calm wait for the market to correct itself, then when it does, buy an extra box or two when you can afford it and soon you will have enough to last you through the lean times

Sage advice here. I'll be shooting until the market does correct itself. I have sufficient supplies. It would be nice to have more, but I'm okay.
It isn't hoarding when you do your purchasing as it is available.

There is "gouging" going on. It is market forces and supply and demand. Look at Powder Valley http://powdervalleyinc.com/
They have actual prices for primers. But notice, they are all out of stock. Same with powder. You want primers or powder??
You will have to pay the going price from whoever is holding and still has stock.

Shiloh

[Iron Mike Golf]

How much do you think you'd get for primers if you auctioned them? If you got $50/K by doing an auction, is it gouging then?

[Reload3006]

I guess there's suckers born every minuet. Go to evil bay and see the 20 dollar lee molds going for 70.

[dverna]

Gouging and hoarding are terms used by the unprepared.

Oops! Did I type that out loud?

762

EXACTAMUNDO!!!!

I was going to add some comments to this and decided they would likely get me banned on this site. So I watered them down.

I will close by suggesting that anyone who does not have a MINIMUM of one years supply of shooting "stuff" stockpiled is demonstrating they have not learned from history and IMHO deserve to "suffer". There is NO excuse for living (shooting) day to day.

If you do not have the money to shoot and stockpile then reduce your shooting accordingly until you have your stockpile built up. Increase your shooting once your stock pile is established, and add to your stocks as your shooting activity increases. It is not rocket surgery.

In addition, shooting stuff is a great investment. I have $16/1000 primers. $9/lb powder and $22/bag shot. NONE of this stuff goes bad, needs to be fed or watered, and does not require special storage.

[alamogunr]

An example of what I consider gouging is on the website of a sponsor here. Or at least was a sponsor a few days ago. Go here(http://alamoammo.com/rifle-ammo/22-long-rifle) and check out the price for a box of 525 Win. HP.

That looks like the same thing I bought several months ago at WM for less than $25. Now $250. ????

[rockrat]

Gouging is when I have to buy at high prices.

Its was an investment, when I am selling.

Right?

[dakotashooter2]

The problem with gouging IS "what goes around comes around". Gouge your customers and they WILL remember it.. The businesses that take a "reasonable" hike to get them through the bad times are going to fare better in the long run than the guys that try to get rich overnight. What is going to happen with many shops it that many of the customers will pay the going rate for stuff and then hoard it, meaning once supplies get back to normal they will have to go through their stockpiles before buying more. That means a dry spell for the shop and he will end up reducing prices and losing profit to move stock. That is when the smart gun owners will re-supply......... Thats what happened after the last panic and the one before that......................

I just looked at the alamoammo site...... in my opinion they took their first step in driving themselves out of business.................................

[Phoenix]

=It cannot be easy for all these gun shops, to be sitting with nothing to sell. You better quit worrying on if they are gouging you or not, and start praying that they make it through this, and are still in business next year.

This is a serious issue. I am friends with a shop owner. He is seriously concerned this could put him out of business. Huge demand is only desirable when there is huge supply to go along with it. So at least you can make enough to survive the inevitable lull afterwords. If this all blows over There will be a huge glut of gun related stuff that people who overspent will want to get their money back for. It will be half what they paid for it. The gun shops can't afford to buy it and wouldnt want to anyway because they don't want stuck with it if the prices fall further. Sure if they had unlimited capital they could buy it all cheap and it would eventually make them a ton. But most shops don't have that kind of capital. The Lull after the storm could last a year and could put allot of shop out of business.

[mdi]

I would ask him how much his mark-up is. Prolly not that much, but what's he gonna do in 6 or 8 months when the primers are on the shelves and nobody's buying 'cause they over bought earlier? I think a lot of the whining and complaining going on in forums today is just sour grapes 'cause the poster didn't stock up (panic buy/hoard) when there were primers available at regular costs. How many of those posters have 20 to 30 thousand primers and 20 or 30 pounds of powder already? Buy low, sell high is the American way (capitalism). Luckily for me, I was a Boy Scout and was prepared for this shortage a year or two ago (no panic buying, just methodical shopping when all supplies were redily available).

[thehouseproduct]

"Again, the gunstore owner who has to pay his bills 6 months from now and is facing low or no stock availability has to get the most from the stock they have."

TRUTH. I am a small FFL and I can't find a product to sell. If i can get something in, I NEED to make the most i can just to stay afloat. I will correct my pricing when I have inventory to do so.

[Reload3006]

So lets get this straight. If on said volume of merchandise said shop owners expect to make a certain amount of profit. Basing their sales forecast and semi or annual income levels base their prices on needed margin. Is it then customers fault that demand has out stripped your planning? So you charge inflated prices to make the "Most" you possibly can? Fine do so. But the truth is since demand is high and you have product you are going to make the absolute most you can often 5 to ten times normal margin justify it however you want to but it will cost you in the end. there are several of your competitors who aren't and they will continue to get my business while You will not.

[oldtoolsniper]

You don't like what someone has to say, avoid them. It's a first amendment thing.

You don't like what's on your TV or Radio don't watch it or don't listen to it. They have other channels for a reason.

You don't like the price asked for something don't buy it. There is no deal you have to have.

It's called freedom. It's a choice. You are not forced to watch, listen or pay for anything in this country. Even taxes should you choose to exist buy eating out of dumpsters and being homeless.

If you want this all regulated than I can only assume you have voted for the correct party, they are currently in charge. We can all live in a socialist utopia and all be regulated to sameness.

You want to regulate something than you are taking something away from someone else. That gives them the right to regulate you.

I'll take my freedom to choose in any way shape or form.

[thehouseproduct]

So lets get this straight. If on said volume of merchandise said shop owners expect to make a certain amount of profit. Basing their sales forecast and semi or annual income levels base their prices on needed margin. Is it then customers fault that demand has out stripped your planning? So you charge inflated prices to make the "Most" you possibly can? Fine do so. But the truth is since demand is high and you have product you are going to make the absolute most you can often 5 to ten times normal margin justify it however you want to but it will cost you in the end. there are several of your competitors who aren't and they will continue to get my business while You will not.
If price is all you shop by, see ya. You weren't one of my customers to begin with.

[Reload3006]

If price is all you shop by, see ya. You weren't one of my customers to begin with.
I suppose that is why we live in a free country. But let me ask you your competitor has a pound of IMR4350 for 22.00 and your asking 29.00 why should I buy it from you? Why is your pound of powder worth more to me than his? That sir is a free market. I agree with you your inventory belongs to you it was your investment and yours alone what you do with it is your business. Whether or not I buy it from you is mine. You're right about one thing with your attitude I probably would never be one of your customers.

[TheGrimReaper]

He is gouging you. Wholesale Large rifle are about 26.00/1000

More than I'll pay.

[fredj338]

So I'm wondering is it him that's gouging? Is it his supplier that's gouging? Is it really gouging? The guy still has bills to pay even if he can't get stock to sell, so maybe he has to make what he can on the stuff he can get to sell? I don't know. I'm not a business man and certainly not an economist, so I don't really know what to think of it. I did however pass on the $60 Federals. I have about 1400 in the shop and usually shoot less than 200 rounds a month, so I'm gonna wait until I need them worse of else find some cheaper. I did buy a lb. of RL-7 for $29.95. Same price as the last can I bought back when I got the 1000 primers for $37.
It's not gouging, its capitalism. Gouging is when you must have smoething you can not do without & a seller takes advatnage of that, food, water, meds, etc. You do NOT NEED ammo or magazines, you want them. So a lot of people are whining because they didn't see this coming & many of us did. Everything was available in Dec, now everything is in short supply as people play catch up.
This will alst all year IMO, maybe well into 2014. It will get even worse if the libs win the house in 14. So educate your libertarian & conservative friends. We must keep the house to neuter PBO, or we are really going tog et screwed.

[unique]

Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair.

I had to look up the meaning of pejorative, it means a word that connotes negativity and expresses contempt or distaste.

So for me gouging would occur only in the case where someone needed that ammo to feed/protect their family, otherwise the higher prices are annoying but somewhat understandable.

However, I expect real genuine gouging will occur in the near future and perhaps a lot of folks understand that and so they are trying to stock up now but that means what is happening today really is gouging but then again why didn't these folks see this coming earlier but if they did then the panic would have set in earlier and then some of the people that have stuff now might have been shutout and they would be now crying out against gouging but where does it end...I will tell you as it is very simple.

Protect thyself because no one else will.

[jonk]

Let me put this another way.

If you saw a gold coin being sold for $1600, bought it, and next year the price was $2000 and you wanted to sell, would you sell at the price you paid for it?

It is immaterial what the seller paid for the primers, ammo, or guns; the question is, what is the current market price? We all want to find deals, but I can't knock the sellers for getting what they can for what they are selling. I've got a 2007 car I might sell, blue book price on it is $5500, that's what I'm starting at. And, like most gun store owners, I'm willing to haggle. I'm NOT asking $5000 because that was the blue book price for a similar 6 year old model 6 years ago, I'm asking TODAY'S price.

[johnnybar]

As stated....We humans, I included, are very good at figuring out how poor our condition is and miserable at figuring out other's...woe is me syndrome.
Lets see:
-We've decided that the family owned "John Q Gun & Ammo" shop over by Betty Lou's cafe must have the same pricing abilities as Walmart, Academy and Natchez, or they are thieves.
-If we threaten local shops with future boycott, they will magically have the ability to cut prices by two thirds.
-We weekend commandos need our fun fodder at whatever near wholesale price meets our needs, while these shop owners obviously only need bread and water.

Have I missed anything guys? Oh yes:
-It's all their fault in the first place...those stinkin' shop owners...who needs 'em!

And here's the grand finale:
- John Q's wife said what! "Let them eat cake!"? OFF with their heads!

In reality, a little out of the box thinking is overdue. If the ammo shelf is so bare, save it for self defense and pick up that bow, a truck load of guys and their 3d targets, and go have some 3d course fun for free. Maybe a little bet to liven things up! Fun doesn't have to go bang!

[oldtoolsniper]

I guess it really depends on which side of the counter you are on.

I will say this from being in a country and witnessing the collapse of their entire economy a bottle of whiskey and a pack of smokes was worth way more than a sack of play money. The individual at the door to his shop whom was armed still had his shop while everything and I mean everything around him was stripped to the ground.

Don't worry though our Government will regulate us to safety after all 32 ounce sodas kill!

These comments may cause cancer in lab rats and California.

[sirgknight]

Just last week I paid $85 for 5,000 wolf primers from Wideners.....$127 including hazmat and shipping. I only purchased what I actually needed. I could have ordered 50,000 and turned around and made a pretty nice profit but I don't want to be a part of the problem. Your gun store wanted $299.75 for 5,000 primers, albeit Federals. Some call it gouging, some call it supply and demand; I call it GREED.

[uscra112]

Gouging can ONLY take place when a supply MONOPOLY exists. If the Government shuts down every manufacturer of primers except Remington, and then Remington raises prices far beyond cost of production and distribution THAT is gouging. If the LGS raises his prices during a famine, that is not gouging, that's just a response to market signals, so long as you have the right to buy somewhere else. And you do.

This cry of gouging from the grasshoppers who failed to prepare for a famine makes my blood boil. It's that kind of short-sighted thinking that politicians like Obama play upon to get elected. Yes, I really meant to say that. If the shoe fits. . . . .

/rant off

The wise are prepared for these eventualities. Just be thankful it's just ammo and components, and not food and water, grasshoppers. Learn a lesson from this, you will. If you will not, help you any more I cannot.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Check out Basic Economics (http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economics-Common-Sense-Economy/dp/0465022529/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361924327&sr=1-1&keywords=basic+economics+4th+edition#_) by Thomas Sowell or Economics in One Lesson (http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-50th-Anniversary/dp/0930073193/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361924433&sr=1-2&keywords=economics+in+one+lesson)by Henry Hazlitt.

These are very basic books, then you can work up to Mises and Rothbard.

[JRLesan]

Zanders sporting goods is a VERY large wholesale distributor. Go to their online catalog, select a product (ammunition, firearms, reloading, whatever) and then 'hide' the out of stock items. Not much to choose from, is there? They are not the only wholesaler out of merchandise in the firearms industry. Now, if the distributors have nothing, the retailers have no source for resupply and are basically out of business. Raising prices is not gouging: it's survival.

[MtGun44]

I have recommended Basic Economics by Sowell before. Folks want to complain, not learn about
what is actually going on.


+1 on USCRA112.

Bill

[johnnybar]

Just last week I paid $85 for 5,000 wolf primers from Wideners.....$127 including hazmat and shipping. I only purchased what I actually needed. I could have ordered 50,000 and turned around and made a pretty nice profit but I don't want to be a part of the problem. Your gun store wanted $299.75 for 5,000 primers, albeit Federals. Some call it gouging, some call it supply and demand; I call it GREED.

Put gas in the tank and drive! If no one else has them within $172 worth of gas................well? If you made it there and back on $172 in gas, congrats, you saved 75 cents. I'm not sure if this is a young/old thing or what. But remember these days and prepare in the future or get those arrows re-fletched.

[opos]

In order to have "gouging" you need a "gouger" and a "gougee" but if there is agreement on the price...you have a deal...no one forces anybody to buy anything...someone said they are not being gouged because they won't buy at inflated prices...that's the deal....if you think you are being gouged...walk away...if you buy...you agree to the price and now it's a deal. I still think a new car should cost $4000 (price of my last new car)...now they charge $30,000...if I buy one I'm agreeing to the price and it's a deal...If I think I'm being gouged...I don't buy...that's why my old Suburban just turned 200, 000 miles and is 17 years old.

[w0fms]

There are 3 LGS's by me and lets say the one who is livid online about "not gouging" is the one charging the most for the same stuff presently as the other stores have (who have also raised prices, but more modestly).... I agree there is no such thing in a free market... but then again I also am not obligated to shop there after all the insanity settles down (this time)..

[fredj338]

Just last week I paid $85 for 5,000 wolf primers from Wideners.....$127 including hazmat and shipping. I only purchased what I actually needed. I could have ordered 50,000 and turned around and made a pretty nice profit but I don't want to be a part of the problem. Your gun store wanted $299.75 for 5,000 primers, albeit Federals. Some call it gouging, some call it supply and demand; I call it GREED.

Not really. Consider the store may not get more primers for say a month or three. If they sell everything out at a disc, how do they keep the store open? So they are just planning for the worst. Now if they never get their primer prices down when things get better, find another store. Some are limting amounts you can buy instead of raising prices, also acceptable. again, they have to keep the doors open & pay the bills.

[David2011]

I do not believe even "necessities" should be protected. The market establishes price. For example, I do not see fuel as a necessity.

Haven't been through too many hurricanes, have you? At that point fuel keeps food edible and medicine safe. It allows you to escape while in heavy traffic where a Honda Civic may get 5 miles per gallon or worse because of the heavy traffic. Most states have laws in place to prohibit price hikes on plywood and other building materials as well as fuels during emergencies. Prior to those laws he price of plywood would skyrocket as a storm approached. I firmly believe in capitalism and have some concerns that this sort of price control has some Marxism in it with government telling business how they have to price goods. I also realize that fuel and building materials ARE necessities for evacuation, preservation of property and protection of food and medicine and hiking the price in a threatened area as a storm approaches is gouging. Just my opinion. . .

David

[dakotashooter2]

I hear some dealers crying they don't know what they will do because they can't get any stock....but they just sold 6 months worth of stuff in a month. If they were surviving on what they were selling before theoretically, they should be able to survive that length of time on the added sales (and markup) they got.

100 years ago if a farmer had a good crop he stashed some money away for the inevitable bad year/s. Now days if someone has a windfall they tend to spend it right away leaving nothing for the eventual bad times..........

[thehouseproduct]

I hear some dealers crying they don't know what they will do because they can't get any stock....but they just sold 6 months worth of stuff in a month. If they were surviving on what they were selling before theoretically, they should be able to survive that length of time on the added sales (and markup) they got.

100 years ago if a farmer had a good crop he stashed some money away for the inevitable bad year/s. Now days if someone has a windfall they tend to spend it right away leaving nothing for the eventual bad times..........
Great thought unless you're a small guy who works off lots of special orders....

[Wis. Tom]

100 years ago the Federal Reserve was created, and yes, you could stash money away then. Now, try stashing money away from this govt. regime, and try to get away with it. Tax is not your best friend, and if you make a profit, shame on you as you did not make it, the govt. made it. That's what the govt. says.

[wingnut49b]

I am constantly surprised at the number of shooters that hate socialist policies in the government, but don't embrace capitalism in the marketplace when it hurts their wallet.

Stock up when there is supply available. There isn't right now. So sell. Do both at market pricing. If you choose not to make money in the firearms market, that's fine. I don't either. But let's not criticize the people that do. And you won't stay in the market long if you ignore market forces.

[Reload3006]

I figure if someone will take advantage of me when the times are hard just imagine what they are doing to me when times are good. If I want what they have to sell bad enough I will fork out the cash. Whereas when times are good (all things in prospective good for buyer or seller) I will remember who it was that was taking advantage of the situation. There are a lot of shops who have product but aren't allowing panic buying by limiting quantities but not raising prices. I will continue to do business with those places when all this madness is over... and yes this too shall pass. Those who have remained loyal to their customers by not taking advantage of the hysteria will continue to get my business those who got greedy well they dont need my business and I certainly dont need theirs. Yep its capitalism at its finest. There is 2 sides to that Capital coin.

An example of what I am talking about I work in the City and have a farm in the country. I plan to retire soon. I had been looking around for a new tractor and because a Kabota dealer is about 3 miles from my farm I thought I would buy a Kabota because it was closest. I started shopping at dealers around the St. Louis Area and had a very good Idea what prices I should expect to pay. So I called the Kabota dealer nearest my farm and asked about a tractor. when he found out that I worked for a major aerospace company in the St. Louis area he decided that he was really going to stick it to me in price. He quoted me a price of about 8,000 more then I had already gotten several quotes from other dealers. You see he figured I was some dumb city slicker he was going to stick it to. I figured that if he was willing to screw me on selling me a tractor Imagine what he was going to do to service it. Not only did he cost himself a sale he cost Kabota a Sale too. I bought a brand new NewHolland I took it by his shop and showed him what he could have sold me had he not tried to screw me.

Yep get greedy shop owners I do have a memory and I will do business with the good guys it is possible they are out there.

[mktacop]

Nicely put sir. There is a gun store near me that has always been a little higher priced than everyone else, but they also have great customer service, so I've considered it a wash. I went in recently and they had 20rds of 9mm SD ammo for $99, 100 primers for $10, 20 rds of russian .223 ammo for $59, etc. When I asked why the prices were so high, the owner said that the prices were "fair market value". I thanked him for his time, told him I'd never be back, and walked out the door.

[milrifle]

Well, I never dreamed my question and comments would have generated this much controversy. Very interesting discussion and it seems pretty equally divided.

I'll give you a little background on myself. I used to shoot and reload quite a bit before moving to GA 14 years ago. At that time, I had no place to shoot, had no shooting friends, and found other hobbies to keep me busy, so I was out of the loop. I guess I heard the occasional comment about the price of ammo, but not being in the market for any, it really didn't sink in what was going on. Well, a couple of years ago, I got back into shooting. I shot up some of the fair quantity of ammo I had loaded years before, and began to reload again. Then I began casting. When the election rolled around, I heard people saying you'd better stock up, but not having gone through it the first time, I thought it was just hype. I really had no idea what was ahead. If I can weather this one, I assure you I won't get caught with my pants down again.

Someone above had an interesting insight on this. Their take was "So what if primers went from $.04 to $.06 a piece. Ammo just increased by $.02 a round." That truly is a mere drop in the bucket compared to buying store bought or even loading jacketed. That made me want to go back and buy the 1000 LR primers for $59. And I might. I would prefer to see if I could get some CCI's though.

[Shiloh]

It's the same story I heard from folks coming out of the depression and in WWII. They had ration cards. You got so much sugar, gasoline, meat, butter, ect. on your punch cards. If you wanted additional, you went on the clandestine market and paid the price demanded from those holding product.

Shiloh

[wingnut49b]

I don't like the local retailers that don't raise prices to fair market pricing. Why should some other shooter buy all the ammo at Walmart for pre-panic pricing, just to flip it on gunbroker? Let the LGS make some money if I need primers, etc. It's better they make the profit to stay afloat than some guy who has no skin in the game.

[w0fms]

Lets say it this way.. one of the LG shops is raising prices a little and only when new shipments come in-- so what's on the shelf is sold at the lower price until its sold out. The other is raising it more-- and when you buy something it has four price tags on top of each other. One is very vocal it's "not gouging" and the other is profusely apologizing for the price increases and actually told me that he was ashamed that he had to do it. For future reference.. the latter is now my first choice.. that's all I am saying...

[blackthorn]

It's the same story I heard from folks coming out of the depression and in WWII. They had ration cards. You got so much sugar, gasoline, meat, butter, ect. on your punch cards. If you wanted additional, you went on the clandestine market and paid the price demanded from those holding product.

Shiloh

We lived on a farm and we had ration cupons that were uneeded so my folks traded coupons (i.e. butter) for stuff we couldn't raise or grow such as sugar. Maybe part of the answer to the current problem is some sort of barter system. As an aside---when we had a "recession" up here in the early 1980's, a whole "underground" economy developed that cost the government millions of dollars lost tax!

[Springfield]

I have to agree with the poster that said if you sold enough stuff in one month that you usually sell in 6 them you have no need to raise prices out of sight. You had a windfall, your rent isn't going up, nor your lighting and heating fees. Use the money to get you through. Maybe even shorten shop hours and work part-time somewhere else, or cut your employees hours. Sorry to have to do that but if the business isn't there... I have 2 small businesses I run from home, shooting related, and I only raise my prices when my material prices go up. Repeat business is the core of my work and if I raise prices in the short run just because I can then I deserve to lose my customers. It isn't all about money, which is why I will probably never get rich, wrong mindset. I ordered primers from Powder Valley 2 months ago and got them last week, ran about 21.00/k. I just received and e-mail that my powder order from Midway is on the way, about 18.00/lb for a total of 13 lbs. . I had to wait until they had product, but they didn't screw me over like some guys on Craigslist who are trying to sell primers for 70.00/K. I hope they choke on them, I will stop shooting before I will succumb to panic buying. I am also stocking up(not hoarding) on certain food items. I would rather have the food in stock than have to use my ammo supply to secure it later, but at least I have that option. I was a Boy Scout for most of my young life, and the Be Prepared part has stuck with me, as well as the treat your fellow man fairly. We can do both, but it takes forward planning and realizing the world owes you NOTHING. The only people I owe are my wife and kids, so I plan ahead for their benefit as well as my own. If I can help my friends and guys like the ones here I will, but don't bet your life in it. That is your own responsibility.

[alamogunr]

I don't claim to know anything about the retail business. All my experience was in manufacturing. There the emphasis was on controlling inventory. If we had 6 months inventory on hand, heads were going to roll. Usually it was required within a few days of when it was needed.

If the LGS proprietor knew that this was coming, he would have needed the finances to stock up or the credit to do so. All this presupposes accurate forecasting of when the shortages started to occur and how long they would last. If he had that foresight, it would have put him head and shoulders above those doing the most complaining right now.

I know folks that think gas should cost $.50/gal and will tell you stories about when it was $.25/gal. and anything over that is going into the pockets of the oil companies. I imagine a few years from now they will have stories along the same lines about ammo, powder and primers.

[Kent Fowler]

I figure if someone will take advantage of me when the times are hard just imagine what they are doing to me when times are good. If I want what they have to sell bad enough I will fork out the cash. Whereas when times are good (all things in prospective good for buyer or seller) I will remember who it was that was taking advantage of the situation. There are a lot of shops who have product but aren't allowing panic buying by limiting quantities but not raising prices. I will continue to do business with those places when all this madness is over... and yes this too shall pass. Those who have remained loyal to their customers by not taking advantage of the hysteria will continue to get my business those who got greedy well they dont need my business and I certainly dont need theirs. Yep its capitalism at its finest. There is 2 sides to that Capital coin.

An example of what I am talking about I work in the City and have a farm in the country. I plan to retire soon. I had been looking around for a new tractor and because a Kabota dealer is about 3 miles from my farm I thought I would buy a Kabota because it was closest. I started shopping at dealers around the St. Louis Area and had a very good Idea what prices I should expect to pay. So I called the Kabota dealer nearest my farm and asked about a tractor. when he found out that I worked for a major aerospace company in the St. Louis area he decided that he was really going to stick it to me in price. He quoted me a price of about 8,000 more then I had already gotten several quotes from other dealers. You see he figured I was some dumb city slicker he was going to stick it to. I figured that if he was willing to screw me on selling me a tractor Imagine what he was going to do to service it. Not only did he cost himself a sale he cost Kabota a Sale too. I bought a brand new NewHolland I took it by his shop and showed him what he could have sold me had he not tried to screw me.

Yep get greedy shop owners I do have a memory and I will do business with the good guys it is possible they are out there.

It's probably the same everywhere. When I bought my property out here, a local guy told me, " If you need something done on your place, don't tell them you're from Houston, they'll double the price on you". In the course of talking to a local company to come brush hog my acreage, the guy quoted me a price, then jumped it 50.00 after he noticed my phone number had a Houston area code. A big San Antonio Buick dealer let me walk after refusing to come up 200.00 on the trade in price, figuring I had money and would take his deal. Couldn't believe it. A dealer losing a sale over 200 bucks?? Went home, grabbed my clothes and my 28 ga. skeet gun, then drove to Houston and shot a bunch of rounds with my good friend. Bought a new car there with a much better deal, while I was at it. It's crazy, sometimes.

[BAGTIC]

High demand and low supply produces high prices and people scream 'gouging'. Why didn't they buy when the supply was high, the demand and prices low? It is not the vendor that sets the price. It is the consumer. High prices are only high because people are willing to pay them. Don't damn the vendor because he asks outrageous prices. Curse your friends and neighbors because they made those prices viable by their willingness to pay. Unless you want to blame everyone for having made us too stupid to buy when the price was right.

[uscra112]

It's probably the same everywhere. When I bought my property out here, a local guy told me, " If you need something done on your place, don't tell them you're from Houston, they'll double the price on you". In the course of talking to a local company to come brush hog my acreage, the guy quoted me a price, then jumped it 50.00 after he noticed my phone number had a Houston area code. .

Well, being born and brought up in a rural location, I gotta stand up for country folks here. Too many city people come from away, outbid a local farmer for a piece of rural property, and start strutting around like lords. Been there, lived that, my Dad finally gave up the family farm and fled the state because of it. When a local fella charges that guy extra, he's thinking of it as an "aggravation fee."

[Reload3006]

Well, being born and brought up in a rural location, I gotta stand up for country folks here. Too many city people come from away, outbid a local farmer for a piece of rural property, and start strutting around like lords. Been there, lived that, my Dad finally gave up the family farm and fled the state because of it. When a local fella charges that guy extra, he's thinking of it as an "aggravation fee."
Problem with that is I was born and raised there. He was a typical theif. they are in the city too and in the country. Its not a country thing or a city thing its a greed thing a lack of morals or principals

There's an old saying what goes around comes around. And Karma is a wicked female dog she will bite you in the rear

[dakotashooter2]

That shop owner also has to remember that electrician,plumber,mechanic or accountant he just gouged might just return the favor one day...............

[oldtoolsniper]

Salesmanship. It's been around a long time. Some are good at it and some are not. Should have been smarter than leaving old price stickers on something. Unless you inventory his store and do his books how do you know what he paid for the tractor, car, airplane glue, or bucket of hot air? Walmart buys goods cheaper than Bills whatever shop. Same as a corporate run implement dealer can sell lower than Bills tractor supply. They don't get the inventory as cheap as Walmart and that means they can't sell it as cheap.

For a long time things were fair and equal in Russia. Perhaps our dearly loved leader can step in and regulate this "Gouging" and make it all fair.

[Kent Fowler]

Well, being born and brought up in a rural location, I gotta stand up for country folks here. Too many city people come from away, outbid a local farmer for a piece of rural property, and start strutting around like lords. Been there, lived that, my Dad finally gave up the family farm and fled the state because of it. When a local fella charges that guy extra, he's thinking of it as an "aggravation fee."

Sorry to hear about your Dad's experience. I may have worked in the oil patch in the big city, but I was born and brought up out in rural West Texas by grandparents and parents who survived the Dust Bowl and the Depression on our farm. And they, like most people out there, when I was young, didn't have the proverbial pot or the window, but they were honest folk and when they gave their word you could bet your life on it. Now, when the guy gave me the first price, he gave his word. He broke his word when he noticed the area code and jumped the price, which, according to the way my Momma raised me, put him in the category of a low down snake. Didn't take his deal, told him what I thought about him and hung up. He went out of business a year or so after, as guys like that don't tend to last in business. This strutting like a lord stuff, I knowest not as folks down here tend not to put up with things like that.

[jonp]

Well, being born and brought up in a rural location, I gotta stand up for country folks here. Too many city people come from away, outbid a local farmer for a piece of rural property, and start strutting around like lords. Been there, lived that, my Dad finally gave up the family farm and fled the state because of it. When a local fella charges that guy extra, he's thinking of it as an "aggravation fee."
Left Vermont for the same reason. Flatlanders came to the North to escape the hellholes they created for themselves in NJ, MA, CT...and promptly started turning VT into the same thing. Taxes and appraisals through the roof, ordinances where there were not any, just got to be too much and moved to NC. The taxes I pay here on a 2 story, 2700sq ft house are almost exactly what I pay on my hunting camp up there which is 300sq ft, one room with no inside plumbing, water or electricity, an outhouse and is 4 miles from the main road. Just crazy.

[jonp]

Nicely put sir. There is a gun store near me that has always been a little higher priced than everyone else, but they also have great customer service, so I've considered it a wash. I went in recently and they had 20rds of 9mm SD ammo for $99, 100 primers for $10, 20 rds of russian .223 ammo for $59, etc. When I asked why the prices were so high, the owner said that the prices were "fair market value". I thanked him for his time, told him I'd never be back, and walked out the door.
Is that a misprint? 9mm for $99? I would have laughed in his face and went home to load my own. I just came from a gunshow and thought the $40 for 50 230gr ball 45acp silly and the $600 for 1000rds of 223 insulting but I guess not since people were buying some. $180/1000 for 45 brass. all seemed high to me.
I just bought 4500 small pistol primers from a gun shop that are the same price they were a year ago. His buying prices have not changed so he is not gouging anyone. Guess how many customers he is gaining and who is going to remember this? I know I am.

[Ole]

I've sold a lot of primers in the past couple months for a nickle each. I won't miss them and will probably be able to replace them later at $.03 or so each.

Thing is, for most of us anyway, ammo/primers/powder/etc isn't a "you need it to live" kind of thing. If you don't like the price, then don't buy them.