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ready_on_the_right
08-04-2007, 09:20 PM
Ok guys got 255 lead bullets wanting to duplicate cowboy loads 700-900 fps.

315gr Gas check wanting full power shoot everything loads.

Guns are Ruger blackhawks.

Powders available:

WW 231
Unique
IMR-4227
Blue Dot
H-110

Probably a few others.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

454PB
08-04-2007, 10:49 PM
The 231 and Unique will build the CAS loads, the Bluedot, IMR-4227, and H-110 will built up your wrist!

Though Ruger BHs are tough revolvers, be cautious. There was a report here a while back where a guy sheared off the screws securing the grip to the frame.

44man
08-05-2007, 10:50 AM
Yes, good advice. You can't download H110 much because it is the same as 296. Unique and 231 are great.
I sheared the grip frame screws in my SBH when I went to 320 gr boolits. The reason is they were loose and I didn't see it. You just have to keep them loc-tited and tight. I make it a habit of checking them often now because I shoot heavy loads. They won't break if tight.

Lloyd Smale
08-05-2007, 12:24 PM
9 grains of unique.

9.3X62AL
08-05-2007, 12:48 PM
+1 to Lloyd's text. 9.0 grains of Unique gives about 850-875 FPS to both #454190 and #454424 in my BisHawk x 7.5". This should be safe in modern Colt SAA's and their replicas of decent quality. It has been a very useful and comfortable load for me.

DanWalker
08-06-2007, 10:51 PM
X3 for the 9.0 grains of Unique
Both my 45 revolvers(5.5"Bhawk & 4 3/4" colt clone) LOVE this load.
I even shot an antelope with that load last fall.
If you want even softer recoil, with nearly the same FPS try using 6.5 grains of RED DOT.

Lloyd Smale
08-07-2007, 06:09 AM
tell you my favorite 45 colt load. Its a 255 swc ahead of 9.5 grains of herco. that load seems to shoot in every 45 colt i have owned and seems to edge out unique in accuracy.

Char-Gar
08-07-2007, 06:45 AM
I used 8.5/Unique under 250-270 bullet for normal plinking and brush carry. For more power I go to 20/4227. This latter load will go over 1,000 fps. That is as hot as I go in the 45 Colt even though Blackhawk revolvers will take much hotter stuff.

9.3X62AL
08-07-2007, 09:52 AM
I don't think I've tried any Herco in the 45 Colt, but the stuff sure works in the other Magnum revo cases for sedate SWC loads (800-1000 FPS).

felix
08-07-2007, 10:12 AM
Herco has been a favorite for many shooters, at Lloyd's specific load of 9.5 grains with a 250 grainer. 4756 is the same speed and is a single base as opposed to Herco's double base. The single base powder is chosen for my guns, in general, because it has been historically much cleaner burning and measures like a ball powder. I would obtain either on a moment's notice, and pick the cheapest in an 4 or 8 pounder. Another advantage of 4756 is that it can be undercharged for easier recoil while maintaining accuracy. On the other hand, Herco delivers more power at the same loading because it has more energy due to it's double base formulation. ... felix

AlaskaMike
08-07-2007, 11:31 AM
The single base powder is chosen for my guns, in general, because it has been historically much cleaner burning...

Uh oh, careful there Felix. The mere mention of "clean burning powders" sets some folks into a frenzy, badmouthing such powders as only being fit for those who don't know how to clean guns. :-D (I hope everyone recognizes that I'm just kidding here!)

I haven't tried Herco yet, but I'm using much more Power Pistol than Unique now. PP meters so much better through my Uniflow, and yes, it is cleaner burning. It's also at least as accurate as Unique in my guns. In my Redhawk in .45 Colt I like anything from 9 to 10 grains, but I've had good luck going a little lower with it. However, for slower than about 900 fps I tend to use either 231 or Clays (mainly because that's what I've got on the fast side of the scale). I haven't tried any SR 4756, but I may pick up a pound after reading about your experience with it Felix.

Mike

Lloyd Smale
08-07-2007, 12:47 PM
dont know why but even though unique is one of my favorite powders herco has allways seemed to do a tad better in the 45. Now if you asked about 44 mags id give unique and power pistol a toss up right now. Both seem about equally likely to produce the best accuracy in a given load. Anohter thing odd about herco is that it doesnt meter the best. It aint bad but theres powders that meter much better. Like universal clays and power pistol but anymore i just ignore it. I set the measure and go to town and 9 times out of 10 herco will do better on paper then any of them.

Lloyd Smale
08-07-2007, 12:55 PM
a little more. I just got done wringing out a new ruger montado. I used herco power pistol unique and Universal clays. All at 9 9.2 and 9.5 grains with 5 differnt swcs in the 250 range and a lfn and wfn that go about 270 each. What came out on top was the first load i tried the old tried and true 9.5 herco and the rcbs 255 swc. 12 shots into just over an inch. Not to bad for an out of the box 3 3/4 in fixed sighted ruger with an 8lb trigger. Im sure next week when the triggers done ill get that under an inch.

felix
08-07-2007, 01:29 PM
11 grains 4756 for a top-end load at mid-speed in the 44 maggies with 250 grainers. Top end here means consistent pressure for the powder speed. Herco, the same for all practical purposes. ... felix

Lloyd Smale
08-08-2007, 06:51 AM
is there a place to buy this cheap? I wouldnt mind trying some. Ive found 4759 surplus but not 4756

Whit Spurzon
08-24-2007, 09:22 PM
is there a place to buy this cheap? I wouldnt mind trying some. Ive found 4759 surplus but not 4756

SF4756 comes in 8oz cans. Goes for just under $10 here. One of my favorite 45 Colt powders.

10 grains (Speer #13 & IMR's older data) is the published max under a 255gr cast bullet for Colts/Replicas. Gets me in ~850 in most of my Rugers. A half grain more gets me over 900 fps in all my Rugers except my 3-3/4" Montado which averages 880 fps. Accurate, fluffy so it fills the case better most powders, burns completely and meters well in my Lee Perfect Powder Measure.

Taylor
08-28-2007, 07:55 AM
My yard sale .45 is using 6.0 of Titegroup with a Lee .252, it works for me.But this is just paper punch fun,no compitition.

spurrit
09-27-2007, 05:42 AM
5.6 gr. Trailboss under 250 gr. RNFP shoots one holers out of my 4 5/8" Vaquero, when I do my part. Trailboss will shoot WAY cleaner than that nasty old unique. I'm pretty sure Copenhagen and old, dry mule turds burns cleaner than unique.

flhroy
09-27-2007, 05:43 PM
12 grs of HS-6 under the Lee 300 grainer works for me. I'm just a nubie shooting a revolver but off the hood of my pick up I can pretty much hit a gallon milk jug every time with a box stock black hawk at around 25 yards or so. Though I've not shot more then 50 in one sitting I' pretty sure this round could be shot all day long. If I remember correctly out of the BH's 4 5/8 inch barrel that slug is moving around 950 fps or so

Roy

shooting on a shoestring
09-27-2007, 10:29 PM
Ready,

I bought a new Ruger Blackhawk, .45 Colt, 7.5". Shot it for about 2 years. Shot everything from light to heavy. The aluminum grip frame broke during a box of 23 gr h4227 under Lee 300 gr RF at about 1250 fps. That was maybe the third box of those heavy hitters. Ruger told me that was fairly common with heavy .45s and the aluminum frame. They wanted $225 to put a steel one on and blue it. I wound up getting a brass one from a gentleman on this forum and got back in business. The brass looks nice. But be ye informed. If your grip frame is aluminum, start looking for what's going to replace it, or leave the 300 grs on the shelf.

50 Caliber
10-02-2007, 11:43 PM
5.8 grains Trail Boss yeild 800 fps with my 4 & 5/8 barrel Ruger.

Dale53
10-03-2007, 12:38 AM
I don't see anyone here mentioning the ORGINAL powder for .45 Colt (that's right, BLACK POWDER). I shot black powder in mine for several years at the "Old Towne, KY" BPCR matches. BP was the only powder allowed. I gained a healthy respect for the ORIGINAL .45 Colt.

Make no mistake, with BP this is a REAL cartridge (with velocities up to 900-1000 fps in 7.5" barrels). They are also quite practical. My revolvers (I used a 4 5/8" Vaquero and my present revolver is a 5.5" Bisley Vaquero) will shoot as many as 75 rounds before "coking up". A five minute cleaning job and it is back in business. They both shot to sights (dead on at 25 yards) with the Lyman Cowboy bullet lubed with Emmert's home mix.

You can vary the power with a case full of powder (compressed 1/16" when seating the bullet) depending on which BP you use (Elephant is the slowest at 750 fps on up through Goex, medium power, and finally Swiss the top velocity getter. 2f in all three brands is the slowest and 3F is the fastest (as you might imagine). They give you about all of the recoil that you need for most purposes.

BP is also quite accurate. My best target during a BPCR match (Friendship, IN) at 50 yards netted me a 92/100 (NRA 50 yard pistol target) standing.

If you require more information, Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting Colt Single Actions" is a good read.

Dale53

405
12-14-2007, 02:18 PM
ready on the right,

As others have posted Trailboss is hard to beat under fairly soft cast bullets in cartridges with fairly good expansion ratios for low velocity CAS type loads. Such cartridges would include 38-40, 44-40, 38 Special, 44 Special and 45 Colt. I'd go to imrpowder.com or pick up one of their 2007 reloading fliers and look in the Cowboy Action section. Trailboss is clean burning, extremely bulky so double charges are less likely and it meters very accurately. This powder seems to be a winner for this type application. It has proven to be the best low velocity, soft cast powder for my CAS rifle and revolver loads in original Winchester 92s, 73s and Colt SAAs.

spurrit
12-15-2007, 12:47 AM
5.8 grains Trail Boss yeild 800 fps with my 4 & 5/8 barrel Ruger.

I'm also shooting 4 5/8" Vaqueros. 5.8u gr. of trailboss is my most accurate load under 250 grainers. 6.0 is max load.

Lloyd Smale
12-15-2007, 05:54 AM
problem with trail boss is i doubt your going to get enough into the case to make 900 fps loads and thats what he was looking for.

spurrit
12-15-2007, 06:33 AM
Actually, Lloyd, if you'll refer to the original post, he was trying to go 7-900 with a 255 grainer. 5.8 gr. (6.0 is max.) of trailboss under a 250 grainer will move out at 727 f.p.s., according to the manual. Since he's shooting Blackhawks, he can load it a hell of a lot hotter than what the manual says. I've yet to try it, but he could probably get to 900 without having to compress the loads.

As a sidenote, I have a friend here locally that loaded his Vaquero so hot, he had to go to using .454 brass, because he was blowing out .45 Colt brass. Since we were shooting identical guns, he offered to let me shoot some of his loads. I did-out of his gun! The loads were so hot that the STAINLESS cylinder was heat blued! I don't have his data at hand, but they were **** hot. Recoil wasn't as bad as .44 magnum Blackhawks I'd fired.

MT Gianni
12-15-2007, 05:18 PM
If he were to go warmer he should switch from Trail Boss. It was designed to be used at 60% density in straightwall cartridges. You can push that boolit much faster with a variety of powder designed to safely do so. Gianni

pa_guns
12-16-2007, 05:15 PM
Hi

What ever you use, put a good crimp on it.

Bob

felix
12-16-2007, 05:45 PM
Bob, we have gotten more accuracy by applying more case seating pressure rather than using crimp force. Crimp just enough to roll down the case edges is the best use of crimp from experience. Shaving down the expanding stem increases the seating pressure. When you see the lube grooves in the seated boolit, you are way too tight for target loads, but just right for the heavy boolits for hunting. ... felix

Cayoot
12-16-2007, 06:13 PM
Shaving down the expanding stem increases the seating pressure.... felix

Would you expound on that please Felix?

pa_guns
12-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Hi

My guess would be that less expansion = smaller case mouth. That of course assumes your brass and dies cooperate.

Bob

felix
12-16-2007, 06:30 PM
Most expanding stems from pistol dies have a flairing angle. That area is not altered (shaved) so the case mouth can be expanded for the boolit entry. If a die set does not have an expander that does not have a flaring angle, then a closed needle nose pliars will open up a case with ease after expansion. Most rifle case dies do not have an expander with a flairing angle. The RCBS cowboy dies do. ... felix

Cayoot
12-16-2007, 06:51 PM
Ok, but why is this different from just not "belling" the mouth as much?

felix
12-16-2007, 06:54 PM
You want the grabbing force of the whole case to hold the boolit, not just the crimping edge which does not work as intended. ... felix

Cayoot
12-16-2007, 06:57 PM
Ok, so are you recommending that I take emery cloth or something and reduce the main body of the expanding plug?

felix
12-16-2007, 07:03 PM
Only for heavy boolit loads. Get another expander plug, M die, or whatever, and modify that. Use the power load you intend to shoot, and crimp no more than necessary for a light load, having used an expander you intend to modify. Start turning down that expander (not the flairing part) a little at a time for another test. Repeat this process until the last boolit in the cylinder stays locked into its case. ... felix

Cayoot
12-16-2007, 07:14 PM
Thanks Felix,
One more question:

Does this accomplish the same thing as a Lee Factory Crimp Die?

felix
12-16-2007, 07:22 PM
Yes, and no at the same time. Factory crimp dies will work for normal diameter bullets best. If you are using softer lead, and/or oversized lead as required for filling the cylinder exit holes, then the factory crimp die will cause boolit damage. Not only that, the case after being squeezed for an extra tight fit around the boolit won't stay there and will expand ever so slightly after destroying the boolit diameter. Best to use the factory crimp die only for condom bullets. This is just a general statement, because whatever works, will work. Your objective is to merely hold the boolit tight after deciding the final boolit diameter for the cylinder. ... felix

Cayoot
12-16-2007, 07:36 PM
That makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks much!

longhorn
12-17-2007, 10:13 PM
My experience says Felix is exactly right about this, and Elmer was wrong: a crimp alone won't suffice. You need a tight case grip for consistent powder burn with big loads Of course, tight chambers help brass longevity, too, and those chambers seem to be hard to come by in the .45LC.

runfiverun
12-17-2007, 10:35 PM
you probably have a 44 flaring tool that works for me

pa_guns
12-17-2007, 10:39 PM
Hi

Lead is a very strange metal. You can't make a lead spring. It doesn't have any tendency to "return" at all. You push it and it stays pushed.

"Taper crimp" is simply another term for "just get rid of the bell".

Bob

454PB
12-17-2007, 10:43 PM
I measured several of my .45 caliber expanders, from .45 ACP to 454 Casull. They all hover between .449 to .448.

Dale53
12-18-2007, 01:05 AM
Elmer was NOT wrong. He also suggested really tight case tension when shooting the .44 magnum. In fact, he had suggested expander stems to be as small as .424-.425" for .430 bullets. So, he and Felix are pretty much on the same page.

Dale53

spurrit
12-18-2007, 01:22 AM
You need a tight case grip for consistent powder burn with big loads Of course, tight chambers help brass longevity, too, and those chambers seem to be hard to come by in the .45LC.

Yeah, and people even ream their chambers so the shells FALL out. It's real big with the people that play cowboy on weekends. I get annoyed with people in SASS. Most of them can hardly shoot, and very few hunt or do anything else with guns. They simply use them as a costume accessory.

shotstring
12-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Spurrit, I get a bit annoyed with some of the people in SASS too, but for their game, reaming out the chambers in revolver cylinders and particularly the chambers in their double shotguns makes sense. You aren't really expanding the chamber much if any at all - you are just polishing it to remove the miniscule burrs digging into the shell casing upon firing. If you use a double shotgun and the shells don't just drop out when the gun is cracked open, you have no chance to win against the better shooters. My main gripe was that it had become an equipment race (lite) for those that really wish to have a chance to win at the big shoots (38/357 is a must over the big bore guns, and a Win 97 shotgun is becoming almost manditory) and a shotgun reloading competition for EVERYONE instead of a shooting competition. Kind of takes the fun right out of the game for me. But then, like you said....how many chances do you get in life to play "dress up".:Fire:

pa_guns
12-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Hi

There are very few shooting competitions that have not eventually turned into equipment races. It's a shame, but it seems to happen again and again.

Bob

fa38
12-19-2007, 04:25 PM
I get annoyed with people in SASS. Most of them can hardly shoot, and very few hunt or do anything else with guns. They simply use them as a costume accessory.

The thing with the SASS people is that they do buy guns and will hopefully not vote for the politicians who would like to take our guns away. They now have an investment to protect.

spurrit
12-19-2007, 09:03 PM
Spurrit, I get a bit annoyed with some of the people in SASS too, but for their game, reaming out the chambers in revolver cylinders and particularly the chambers in their double shotguns makes sense. You aren't really expanding the chamber much if any at all - you are just polishing it to remove the miniscule burrs digging into the shell casing upon firing. :Fire:


Polishing the chambers really gives no advantage, as the SASS handbook suggests that there be no reloads on the clock. They have a whole bunch of extraneous safety rules to make the game 'tard proof, but they keep coming up with better 'tards.

OBXPilgrim
12-19-2007, 09:15 PM
"There are very few shooting competitions that have not eventually turned into equipment races. It's a shame, but it seems to happen again and again."

That's about the main reason why I've enjoyed shooting 'smallbore cowboy sillywet'. Iron sights, tube feed, no bolt action (pump/lever/auto/just so long as it tube feeds & don't have a twist-yank action). Despite the "cowboy" name - it wasn't a dress-up affair.

My son (14 yr old at the time) & I, both shot in a couple matches. Everything from 90 yrd old rifles to new Henry levers.

Fun times

robertbank
12-19-2007, 10:55 PM
Spurrit the English language has a number of adjectives one could use in the right context. How about trying a few others on this forum.

If you don't like the rules don't shoot it. If you don't shoot it why be concerned.

Take Care

Bob

spurrit
12-20-2007, 07:23 AM
I'll do as I **** well please.

waksupi
12-20-2007, 08:33 AM
I'll do as I **** well please.

Spurrit, we keep the foul language down here. I strongly suggest you do so.