Starter Progressive Press?? [Archive]

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-Mischief

02-25-2013, 02:49 PM

I have been loading on my single stage Lee press for a couple of years and would like to be able to knock out 2-300 cartridges in an hour rather than 50-75. Now, I don't do this often. I don't load 5000 rounds a year...more like 1500 pistol and rifle together. My reason for getting a progressive press is the time it takes to do a certain amount, as dicribed above, not to bang out 500 rounds a night..every night.

I've been looking at a Dillon 650 but that seems like over kill for what I need it for.

Oh, one other thing....CONVENIENCE!! I would prefer an AUTO loader that does everything. (except for sense the accuracy of the powder charge)

I've looked at a Lee Pro 1000...seems like a great deal for $225-250 used.

What do you all think? Any other models you may suggest? I'd like to stay under $300 unless everyone says "get the Dillon", then I understand I'll be pushing $1000.

Thanks in advance.

dbosman

02-25-2013, 02:54 PM

If the Dillon isn't out of the question due to cost, buy a Dillon and be done with the question.
Otherwise, for pistol, the Lee works nicely. I've not used one for rifle.

Wots

02-25-2013, 03:01 PM

This is not a progressive but for me the next best thing. Lee Turret Press.

"Our Turret presses can operate at near progressive speed, switch cartridges in seconds, and with experienced hands, can reload up to 250 rounds an hour. All presses feature solid steel linkage.

All Turret Presses are equipped with the Lee Lever Prime System with large and small primer arms. Features lift out convenience, and works in conjunction with the Lee Safety Prime."

I load anything from a .380 to 45-70. Can't beat the price if you can find em today.

LUBEDUDE

02-25-2013, 03:12 PM

Welcome to the forum Mischief.

You can buy a new Dillon 550 for $439. You add the dies and you are ready to go. The machine is extremely versatile and will last you a Lifetime. Once it is set up, you won't be constantly fighting it like some other machines. You can load pistol and rifle. You have quick interchangable tool heads.

Well worth the money.

Don't be suckered in by cheap, cheaper products.

BTW- bad news Dillon is back ordered 6-8 weeks -- what does THAT tell ya? You gotta wait for the best.

Moonie

02-25-2013, 03:20 PM

You can get a Pro1000 for under $200 new and the LoadMaster for a bit more. It depends on your needs, the LoadMaster will load pistol and rifle, the Pro1000 will load pistol and is capable of doing 223, but I wouldn't.

I have both of these presses and can only recommend them if you really know how to reload AND are very mechanically inclined. They do take tweaking to keep them running properly.

Love Life

02-25-2013, 03:25 PM

Errokk

02-25-2013, 03:38 PM

I use a hornady lnl ap progressive press. A little touchy to get everything tuned in but rolls some good ammo out once you do. At a few hundred cheaper then the Dillon, can't go wrong.

LUBEDUDE

02-25-2013, 06:10 PM

I use a hornady lnl ap progressive press. A little touchy to get everything tuned in but rolls some good ammo out once you do. At a few hundred cheaper then the Dillon, can't go wrong.

Cheaper than the 650 NOT the 550

David2011

02-25-2013, 08:26 PM

Frank,

It's hard to beat Dillon presses. Let the amount of reloading you do be your guide. Most of my handgun rounds are loaded on a 550, bought new in 1991. I also load .223 and .45-70 on it. Most rifle rounds get loaded on a single stage press as it's just not, IMO, worth gearing up on a progeressive for less than 100 rounds and preferably a few hundred. When I got something in .40 for USPSA/IPSC I got a Dillon 650 to feed the large volume that USPSA, shooting several matches per month, consumed. The 550 is far less costly to set up for a new caliber than the 650 but the 650 is faster. Don't worry about the 550 not auto-indexing. It's no big deal. Working alone I can crank out 400/hour on the 550 and 800/hour on the 650. They are lifetime purchases with an unbeatable warranty. If you go with a 650 go all the way and get the case feeder.

David

sirgknight

02-25-2013, 09:38 PM

My first press was the Lee Challenger and I still use it. Christmas 2008 my wife gave me a Lee Classic 4-hole Turret Press. This press would be an excellent choice and the price is still an exceptional value.

longshot1154

02-25-2013, 09:53 PM

I started with a Lee Loadmaster many years ago. I worked for an indoor shooting range and I got the press for $20 over cost. At this time, I think I paid around $130.00 for it. Used to reload a bunch as I was able to shoot while working and would shoot a couple hundred rounds a day. Gave up reloading for quite a while and am now just getting back into it. The Loadmaster sat in a basement then a shed for about 15 years without being touched. I set it up a couple days ago and cleaned it up. Still functions fine. I did order some replacement parts from Titan Reloading, sponsor up above, and some from Lee directly, just to have them handy and to refurb the press. Parts were about $40.00 total. Ordered extra of some just to have on hand and ordered the newer primer parts, large and small, as mine are the originals from about 18 years ago and they have changed the design a couple times apparently. I have always been happy with my Lee press and would buy one again.

BruceB

02-25-2013, 09:54 PM

Allow me to second David's remarks.

My reloads span the size range from 9x19 (9mm Parabellum) to .416 Rigby and .50 BMG. All except the .50 are loaded on presses from a single-stage (Rockchucker) to a Lyman turret and also a Dillon 550.

The 550 is a truly excellent press which will serve admirably for almost ANY loading job. It will work as a single-stage if needed, and it will load huge quantities of ammo in short order if that's what's needed. Auto-indexing is a needless complication and can add to one's difficulties on occasion.

Unlike David, I do load rifle rounds progressively on the 550 sometimes. High-consumption rounds like the ,223 and .308/7.62 NATO are frequent "customers" in the Dillon; I just exercise great care to ensure that proper powder charges are correctly installed.

The 550 will accept even the .416 Rigby, but I don't need enough of those fat fellers to make it worth my while to buy the conversion kit (which IS in their catalog....I bet they sell maybe one or two per year).

Good luck, whatever you decide.

doulos

02-25-2013, 10:01 PM

For your needs a Dillon 550b would fit the bill. Easy and fast caliber and primer changes. Under 500 bucks. 2-300 rounds an hour is a leisurely pace. If you dont need a 5 station press for a powder check die and use your own 2 eyes as your powder check and dont mind indexing with your hand. Then that press would be hard to beat.
If you're only reloading a couple calibers and dont mind using only Dillon dies A Square deal is even cheaper.
I think the Dillon 550b is a rock solid press with very few glitches and problems.

1bluehorse

02-25-2013, 10:14 PM

For 300 bucks you only have two choices, well maybe three, Lee Pro 1000, Lee Loadmaster and the maybe third would be a used "older" model of anything else...for new presses (other than the Lee's) the least expensive would be the Dillon 550B and the Hornady LNL..the Dillon is 4 stations and manual index, the Hornady is 5 station and auto indexing. Either would be close to 500 dollars with shellplate and dies ready to go. The RCBS Pro 2000 and Dillon 650 are both mo' money...my presses would fall into the "third option" (RCBS Ammomaster Autos) I still use them simply because they've never given me any reason to "upgrade" to anything newer..and they're more versatile than any other press currently offered (you can convert them to a Single Stage, or a 5 station manual indexing, or full 5 station auto indexing)...if you could find one at a "reasonable" price, I'd highly recommend it....

USMC87

02-26-2013, 12:14 AM

I load all my pistol rounds on a Dillon 550, I load 223 on it as well but all other rifle cartridges are loaded on the pacifi power c or rock chucker. If you had the opportunity to visit someones shop to try out a certain press you were interested in it would help. I am completely satisfied with the 550 but others have there own equipment they like as well, It's personal preference and of course how much you want to spend.

Woody3

02-26-2013, 12:29 AM

^^^^ I am Love Life and I approve this message.

I am Woody and I too approve this message. Lol

Dillon is the way to go. Do it right the first time and don't worry about it again b

Alvarez Kelly

02-26-2013, 02:16 AM

Ditto on Dillon. I've had all the different Dillons... including ones you probably have never heard of. I still have two RL550Bs side by side on my reloading bench. 'Nuff said.

Mike Kerr

02-26-2013, 04:40 AM

From your post I gather you are not a novice, rather a steady reloader looking to step up in your press line. The Dillon 550B can't be beat for a lifetime of use. A Lee Classic Cast Turret also has potential for long time but infrequent use.

The Lee Pro 1000 and the Lee Loadmaster are probably not what you are looking for. They work best with consistent tweaking and your post indicates you load somewhat infrequently - just need some speed.

I switched from Lee to Dillon many years ago for the reliability factor and the 550 is a great long term value. Of the lEE TURRETS AND PROGRESSIVES the CLASSIC TURRET is in a class of its own.

regards,

:):):)

johnnybar

02-26-2013, 06:06 AM

I've had a LNL AP for several years now and can't be happier. Get several LNL bushings for all the intended calibers, fill a few primer tubes and start cranking 'em out. It will sure fill ammo boxes quick.

Here's a very knowledgeable gent's take on the two brands he considers to be the best:

This topic always starts a ruckus. It is important to note that BOTH SYSTEMS ARE EXCELLENT! But, they operate differently. You need to choose the press that matches your style. Good Luck!

Which is Better? What’s best?

This question usually ignites a firestorm of of "Blue verses Red verses etc." What you are not going to find is very many people that have actually loaded on BOTH DILLON AND HORNADY. I have loaded on the Dillon SDB, 550, 650, 1050 and the Hornady LNL.
I currently own a Hornady LNL and a Dillon SDB.

Here is my perspective:

Consider the Hornady Lock and Load Progressive. It’s cheaper than the Dillon and has several features that, IMHO are better than Dillon.

The Dillon has been on the market a long time and have great customer service, as a result, Dillon users are very dedicated to their blue presses. Dillon presses are EXCEPTIONAL and do an exceptional job in reloading. The competition to the Dillon is the Hornady Lock and Load Auto Progressive. Because most of the Dillon users are so satisfied, when you ask the question “Which is better?”, you get swamped with comments like, "The Hornady LNL is Junk!" If you asked if they have ever loaded on the LNL and 99.9% said no. When I did find someone that had experience with both presses, most liked the LNL and many had sold their Dillon's and bought the LNL. However, there have been those that sold their red presses and bought blue. I can also unequivocally state, based on my experience, that HORNADY has equal customer service. You just have to decide what you like best. Some times it’s just the color, red or blue!!

IMHO the Dillon has one major shortcoming and, most Dillon owners will agree if they are honest. The Dillon powder measure is sorely lacking in ease of use and adjustability. It is sliding bar type measure. It meters ball type powder well but, flake type powder less so. Extruded stick type powder is VERY troublesome and not all that accurate. To be fair, extruded powder is difficult in all powder measures, irregardless of design. Be advised that flake powder has been known to “leak” around the Dillon sliding bar as it is activated back and forth. Particularly if the sliding bar is worn. The LNL powder measure is a rotary barrel design that handles all types of powder MUCH better than the Dillon. A rotary barrel is the same design used by RCBS, Sinclair and other manufacturers. I have never heard of a rotary type measure “leak”. Also, it is a pain to swap out the Dillon powder measure to another die plate. As a result, many owners have several powder measures on separate die plates for changing calibers. This significantly drives UP the COST. I have never heard of a LNL owner that has more than one powder measure. There is no need. It is easy to adjust. Many LNL owners, myself included, own several "Powder Dies" that are pre-adjusted to load a specific case. (Note: Powder measure fits into the Powder Die.) Each LNL powder die costs about $20. A Dillon powder measure costs $75.

Also, IMHO, the Dillon de-priming/priming system is less reliable than the LNL. With the Dillon system, spent primers drop through the bottom of the shell plate into a small cup. It is an “open” system and is easy to empty. However, the press gets dirty with carbon. Whenever carbon/dust/dirt or “primer dust” fouls the primer seating station this causes "flipped" or "skipped" primers. The DILLON de-priming system works well provided it is kept CLEAN. With the Hornady LNL, spent primers are dropped completely through the press into a plastic tube and into the trash or bottle or whatever you want to use. It is a “closed” system. You never get carbon in and around the bottom of the shell plate. The point is the dirt off the spent primers does not foul the workings of the press. I have never had a “flipped” primer. Although, I have had “missed” primers that I feel were operator error (ME!) and not the fault of the primer system. (I forgot to seat the primer!) In all fairness, the LNL primer seating station will also not work properly if the primer slide is fouled with dirt or powder. Please note that neither Dillon or LNL primer systems will work flawlessly unless they are adjusted properly. Users of BOTH systems have expressed exasperation with these adjustments.

If you want a “Powder Check” system you need a press with at least five stations. The Dillon Square Deal and Dillon 550 both have 4 die stations. The LNL and Dillon 650 both have 5 stations. However, the 650 costs significantly more than the LNL. The Dillon 1050 is really an industrial machine and has eight stations.

How the presses indexes is an issue for some people. In reading the web about "KABOOMS" (Blowing up a gun!!), many of the kabooms I have read about were directly traced back to a manually indexing press. This is not the fault of the press but, operator error. However, with a manually indexing press, If you get distracted while reloading, you can easily double charge a pistol case. (A double charge will depend on the powder you are using and the charge weight.) IMHO, a double charge is less of a problem with auto-indexing presses. The Hornady LNL, Dillon 650 and, Dillon Square Deal auto index. The MOST POPULAR Dillon press, the 550, is a manually indexing press. Some people prefer manual, some people prefer auto.

In addition, the LNL auto indexing is significantly smoother than the Dillon 650. The LNL indexes 1/2 step while the ram is going up and 1/2 step when the ram goes down. The 650 indexes a full step on the ram down stroke and can cause pistol cases to spill SMALL AMOUNTS of powder with the indexing "bump". IMHO, the LNL is dramatically better. Of course, the amount of powder "bumped" from a case is dependent on the powder charge, operator and, speed of reloading. As I stated above, you get primer problems with a dirty press. "Bumped" powder fouls BOTH Dillon and LNL.

Next, the LNL uses a really slick bushing system for mounting loading dies and powder measure to the press. It makes changing calibers and SNAP. After a die is adjusted for whatever you are loading you can remove the die from the press with an 1/8 turn and insert a different die. Each die has it's own bushing. The Dillon uses a die plate that has the powder measure and all loading dies installed. The Dillon die plate costs more than LNL bushings. Another neat feature with the Hornady is that you can buy a bushing conversion setup and use the same bushings on your RCBS, Lyman or other single stage press and the LNL!

Additionally, the LNL seems to be built like a tank! The ram is about 2"+ in diameter and the basic press is similar in construction to the RCBS Rock Chucker. I would say that a side-by-side comparison to the either the Dillon 550 OR 650, the LNL is at least as sturdily built. And, in some areas I think the LNL is better built. i.e., The massive ram, powder measure, and primer system. The head/top of the press is solid except for where the dies are inserted. The Dillon has a large cutout that is needed for their die plates. By just looking, it would seem the LNL would be stronger. But, of course, that may not be the case.

There is one piece that can get damaged on the LNL. There is a coil spring that holds the cases in the shell holder that can get crushed if you improperly change shell holders. That's the bad news. The good news is that they are only about $2-3 for three and they won't get crushed if you change shell plates correctly. Also, recently Hornady sends these out as a warranty item free of charge. The other good news is that this spring is the primary reason while loading you can easily remove a case at any station. The spring is durable if it is not abused. I have been using my current retainer spring for about 2 years. I have loaded at least 12,000 rounds in that time. With the Dillon you have to remove small individual brass pins in order to take a shell out of a shell plate. My fingers require needle-nose pliers or forceps to remove the brass pins. It is a PITA.

(For the next discussion keep in mind that BOTH DILLON AND LNL shell plates rotate CLOCKWISE.)

Another item to think about. For NON-CASE FEEDER users; all Dillon presses (Except 1050) require you to use BOTH hands to insert brass and bullets on the press. The Dillon 650, 550 and, SDB operates as follows;

1. Right hand inserts an empty case at the right, front side of the press.
2. Left hand then sets the bullet on the case mouth at the left, rear side of the press.
3. Right hand then activates the operating handle.
4. For Dillon 550 only, Left hand manually rotates shell plate.
5. You then release the operating handle and insert another case with your right hand and so forth. (Right, left, right, left, right, left)

(Note: With the Dillon 550 you also have to manually rotate the shell plate at step 4. Most people do this with their LEFT hand.)

With the Dillon, “right-left-right-left” hand operating procedure, clockwise rotation and, the fact that you start your loading process at the front, right side of the press, your bullet seating die is at the rear, left side of the press. Why is this important? The Dillon powder measure drops powder into the case and the case is rotated clockwise to the REAR of the press to the bullet seating die. It is very difficult to see inside of the case to see the gunpowder. Many Dillon owners rig up flashlight, mirror or, believe it or not, a video camera to “look” into the case to see the powder charge.

With the LNL you start your loading process at the REAR, left side of the press. As your case rotates clockwise, after the powder is dropped, your case is directly in the front of the press and the bullet is seated directly in front of the person operating the press. Is is VERY EASY to look directly into the case to see the powder charge. Even though I use a “Powder Check” die. I look directly into each case as I am loading. I have never had a squib load OR a double charge. This is not to say that it can’t happen. It can. I just haven’t experienced one.

Loading cases and bullets with the left hand is very natural to me. Others may really dislike this feature and prefer the right/left/right/left/right operation of Dillon. Please note that a case feeder eliminates this operation and both Dillon and LNL only load bullets on the left side of the press. Dillon at the back of the press and LNL at the front of the press.

Dillon Customer service is legendary. You can buy a used Dillon press that is a total wreak and they will rebuild or send you a new one for about $40-$50 bucks. Any parts you break will be replaced free of charge. Hornady service, in my experience, is equal. When I needed some replacement springs that broke do to age, Hornady replaced them free of charge. They will also rebuild your press if it needs it. I think most other manufacturers are matching Dillon’s service. Dillon raised the bar pretty high for customer service and other companies see how devoted customers are to the BLUE presses. I do feel that is one of the primary reasons Dillon’s prices are HIGH. But of course, I have no way of knowing that.

You can load anything on both the Dillon and LNL from .25 ACP to 500 N.E. Realistically, I would say that people with progressive loaders mostly load pistol ammo 99% of the time. After using the LNL, I feel confident that my Grandkids will be using when I'm gone.

In summary, the Hornady LNL has all the features of the Dillon 650 but, is much cheaper. However, the Dillon automatic case feeder is about $50 cheaper than the Hornady. Changing calibers on the LNL is faster and cheaper. The powder measure on the LNL is VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THE DILLON, at least in my opinion. I bought the LNL and am very satisfied. A shooting buddy of mine is a long time, dedicated Dillon user. He has three! After giving me a ration of "stuff" about my choice, he came over and used my LNL and sheepishly said, "That's a very nice setup!!"

A pause for the COZ

02-26-2013, 08:48 AM

Why buy new when used will do????
Sounds like you load kinda like I do. My volume maybe a little higher than yours, but I like to do say 300 or 400 and not mess with it for a while.

I like to buy used because. Like my Hornady Projector I paid $150 for after 5 ten years it will still be worth about the same. As long as I dont beat it.

The old ones dont have the features of the new ones but they work just fine for med volume work.
Consider it at least.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_8686_zpsac79e0d9.jpg

cheese1566

02-26-2013, 09:53 AM

Why buy new when used will do????
Sounds like you load kinda like I do. My volume maybe a little higher than yours, but I like to do say 300 or 400 and not mess with it for a while.

I like to buy used because. Like my Hornady Projector I paid $150 for after 5 ten years it will still be worth about the same. As long as I dont beat it.

The old ones dont have the features of the new ones but they work just fine for med volume work.
Consider it at least.

I am Cheeser, and I approve THIS message! :2_high5:

r1kk1

02-26-2013, 11:14 AM

What is a starter progressive press? Never heard of one.

r1kk1

-Mischief

02-26-2013, 11:40 AM

Thanks guys! I appreciate all of the info. It sounds like it's down to the 550 or the Hornady LNL.

7of7

02-27-2013, 12:50 AM

I have a 550, I load 357 magnum, 30-30, 223, 30.06, 45acp, and 38 special on it. I did make one alteration, and that was to thread the holes on the tool heads, and enlarge the top holes on the press so the screw for the tool heads will just fit through. This locks the tool head in place, and I do not get any variation in the seat depth from the first one through to the last one through. I do most of my sizing for the rifles on a single stage, because I trim after the sizing.. I do my priming with a hand primer, while I sit watching a movie.. I finished loading the last 300 223 bullets I had, in about 35-40 minutes..All I had to do was keep an eye on the powder level..as all the brass was primed already.. It only takes about 5 minutes to change to a different caliber..

Errokk

02-27-2013, 01:03 AM

Cheaper than the 650 NOT the 550

Bought my LNL AP for $999.00, cheapest i've seen for the 650 has been over $1,300.00 for the whole kit and kaboodle which is what i got with the Hornady. I didn't just get the press, I bought the whole "ammo plant" kit with the case feeder and boolit feeder too.

johnnybar

02-27-2013, 01:14 AM

Thanks guys! I appreciate all of the info. It sounds like it's down to the 550 or the Hornady LNL.

Did I miss something? The 550 is a 4 station press, manually indexed and bullet loaded in the left rear position. Don't get me wrong...it will make ammo but, why limit your safety to no powder check die? Plus, make it more difficult to see into the charged case before adding the bullet. Then, compound those limitations by the fact that the 550 manual indexing makes it much more likely to double charge than any auto indexing press. -Mischief, there is no comparison between the two when one puts safety first and looks at the facts without the hype.

BruceB

02-27-2013, 01:27 AM

[QUOTE=johnnybar; there is no comparison between the two when one puts safety first and looks at the facts without the hype.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....seems like someone really doesn't like the 550.

Having used my 550 for over fifteen years, I can say that NONE of the "problems" mentioned above have occurred in my operations.

When the instructions are followed and due care is taken, the 550 runs quite safely. As in ANY handloading activity, THINK about what you're doing!

Dillon must be doing something right... there are probably a hundred thousand (or more) 550 presses in service out there. They are back-ordered for months right now.

(I tried a Hornady progressive and didn't like it...call me prejudiced?)

Alvarez Kelly

02-27-2013, 01:29 AM

Did I miss something? The 550 is a 4 station press, manually indexed and bullet loaded in the left rear position. Don't get me wrong...it will make ammo but, why limit your safety to no powder check die? Plus, make it more difficult to see into the charged case before adding the bullet. Then, compound those limitations by the fact that the 550 manual indexing makes it much more likely to double charge than any auto indexing press. -Mischief, there is no comparison between the two when one puts safety first and looks at the facts without the hype.

Having used the Dillon 550 in addition to many of the auto advance progressives... I prefer the manually advanced Dillon 550. It don't move unless I move it. Saying that... it just means that what is great for one may not be right for everyone. After tens of thousands of rounds, I have never had a double charge or a squib load. If you can pay attention while reloading, quality ammo can be made with any of the mass produced reloading equipment available.

I like the simplicity of the 550. It just plain makes ammo fast. If something gets jambed up, you know it, and it can be unjambed real quick.

If you need a buzzer to tell you you didn't drop powder, then get one. Don't let anyone talk you out of it. Only you know what your level of competence or concentration is. Some folks just can't work machinery and will screw up everything. Others can start with a pile of rusted junk and get perfect reloads.

Buy what you like. Buy what you want. Buy what feels good to you when using it.

And please... let us know what you end up with. :-)

Kull

02-27-2013, 01:35 AM

The 650 is a better press than the 550 for a beginner.

johnnybar

02-27-2013, 01:55 AM

Hmmm....seems like someone really doesn't like the 550.

Having used my 550 for over fifteen years, I can say that NONE of the "problems" mentioned above have occurred in my operations.

When the instructions are followed and due care is taken, the 550 runs quite safely. As in ANY handloading activity, THINK about what you're doing!

Dillon must be doing something right... there are probably a hundred thousand (or more) 550 presses in service out there. They are back-ordered for months right now.

(I tried a Hornady progressive and didn't like it...call me prejudiced?)

Bruce,
It sounds like we are both very experienced reloaders and thankfully neither of us has had an OOPS! moment with our reloads. But, bear in mind, we are responding to a "starter" progressive user. Press color aside, any press with the features specifically noted will be better suited for the safety of the shooter. That puts the 650 and the LNL AP in the spotlight with the 550 well into third. No prejudice, just facts. We could fill pages debating what matters and doesn't matter but, in the end, the facts remain...

Lloyd Smale

02-27-2013, 07:19 AM

id defineately go 550 dilion. the lee presses ive had were so touchy i seemed to be doing more fooling with the press then loading and for a beginer thats not what you want. You want to keep your head into the loading chore. If your mechanical inclined and are an experienced loader and are on a tight buget go for it but what ive seen with the lees is usually there bought by guys like you that are a bit inexperienced and trying to save a buck and a year later there selling them for about nothing and buying a better press anyway. The hornady is a much better press then the lees and i mean hands down better but still tend to take more tweaking then a good old 550. the 550 has an advantage with that manual advance. Less things that need to be adjusted and less parts=reliability. Nice thing too about it is if its an only press you can use it as a single stage press if you want to.

btroj

02-27-2013, 09:16 AM

I like my 550. I think a manual advance is better for a beginner.

As for safety, the number one safety device is between the ears. No mechanical device can make up for a failure of the human brain.

Muddydogs

02-27-2013, 10:10 AM

In summary, the Hornady LNL has all the features of the Dillon 650 but, is much cheaper. However, the Dillon automatic case feeder is about $50 cheaper than the Hornady. Changing calibers on the LNL is faster and cheaper. The powder measure on the LNL is VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THE DILLON, at least in my opinion. I bought the LNL and am very satisfied. A shooting buddy of mine is a long time, dedicated Dillon user. He has three! After giving me a ration of "stuff" about my choice, he came over and used my LNL and sheepishly said, "That's a very nice setup!!"

+ 1 for what Johnnybar wrote. I have not used a Dillon but did a lot of research before buying the LnL AP and when you find honest posts from owners of both presses what you read is what Johnnybar wrote. Both are great presses but for the money and features the LnL is a better choice. I have loaded over 10000 pistol and rifle rounds on my LnL with no problems and would not trade it for anything else. I am not sure if you can find a LnL AP at the moment as most Hornady stuff seams to be backordered for a couple months but then again I have not looked at the press just bullet feeder dies.

RydForLyf

02-27-2013, 10:20 AM

Doc_Stihl

02-27-2013, 10:23 AM

The RCBS Pro 2000 is often overlooked when the progressive discussion comes up.

They're a great press. RCBS Warranty and APS strip priming are 2 of the best things in the reloading world in my opinion.

Caliber changes are super easy. The RCBS powder measure is rock solid.

Kull

02-27-2013, 10:59 AM

I like my 550. I think a manual advance is better for a beginner.

As for safety, the number one safety device is between the ears. No mechanical device can make up for a failure of the human brain.

I honestly don't understand how people arrive at the conclusion that the manual advance of the 550 is better for a beginner. Of course the best safety is using our brain and looking in every case before you seat a bullet. That's a given and not a good reason to buy one press over another.

Auto index gives the new reloader one less thing to worry about, same thing with case feed. A person will be able to concentrate more on looking in every case, stroking the press consistently, and just developing good habits in general. The fifth station and the powder check make it no contest. You can also get powder check conversion kits so it's not like you have to buy a powder check for every caliber you reload.

Dan Cash

02-27-2013, 11:23 AM

A used 550B would be dandy if you can find one. Unlikely it would be worn out. If it was, you could still get it overhauled FREE. SDB press is great for one pistol caliber but not very versatile. You would be better served by the 550B. Go Blue.
Dan

Love Life

02-27-2013, 12:41 PM

Did I miss something? The 550 is a 4 station press, manually indexed and bullet loaded in the left rear position. Don't get me wrong...it will make ammo but, why limit your safety to no powder check die? Plus, make it more difficult to see into the charged case before adding the bullet. Then, compound those limitations by the fact that the 550 manual indexing makes it much more likely to double charge than any auto indexing press. -Mischief, there is no comparison between the two when one puts safety first and looks at the facts without the hype.

You don't need a powder check die. How hard is it to stand up when reloading so you can see in the case? How hard is it to mount the press so when you are sitting down you can look in the case? How hard is it to remove the locator button and look in the case? It is no easier to double charge on a progressive than it is on a single stage press. Pay attention to what you are doing and you won't have any problems.

It is not putting safety first. It is using mechanical devices to make up for lack of attention to detail.

Everybody has a scale out and periodically checks powder charges right? All of them are machines and will do exactly what you ask of them. If you ask them to double charge, then they will double charge.

Kull

02-27-2013, 01:11 PM

It is not putting safety first. It is using mechanical devices to make up for lack of attention to detail.

It's using a mechanical device to augment safety, has nothing to do with making up for a lack of attention to detail.

johnnybar

02-27-2013, 01:50 PM

You don't need a powder check die. How hard is it to stand up when reloading so you can see in the case? How hard is it to mount the press so when you are sitting down you can look in the case? How hard is it to remove the locator button and look in the case? It is no easier to double charge on a progressive than it is on a single stage press. Pay attention to what you are doing and you won't have any problems.

It is not putting safety first. It is using mechanical devices to make up for lack of attention to detail.

Everybody has a scale out and periodically checks powder charges right? All of them are machines and will do exactly what you ask of them. If you ask them to double charge, then they will double charge.

Please understand that my next comment is intended only to illustrate a point. No put down, belittling or bullying is intended.

Let's all ride a bicycle to work, fish with row boats only, and shoot timed pistol events with a muzzleloader. Ridiculous right? But, these comments would make sense with your way of looking at mechanical devices because, how hard is it to: pedal a bike, row a boat, or pour powder and ball down a barrel. If a device can improve one's odds of a mishap not occurring, from say 1:100,000 to 1:1,000,000, pray tell, why should we not employ the use of that device and recommend it to others?

Love Life

02-27-2013, 02:35 PM

Because they don't improve the odds if a person is careful about reloading. What they do for those people is give peace of mind.

They are a convenience and should be factored in on that account, not because "they improve safety." As I have said before a non careful person can load bad ammo just as efficiently on a single stage as a progressive. They can load bad ammo just as carefully on a machine with no auto index as they can on a machine with auto index.

IMO, and only my opinion, manual index allows me to check things easier. After weighing my shooting needs the first press I ever bought and reloaded on was a Dillon RL550B. I had no mentor. I still have that press and have loaded thousands upon thousands of rounds. Never a double charge, never a squib, never a overly long rd, etc. Why? Because I have the ability to read the manual, learn a machine, and watch quality control.

While I do believe a powder check die decreases the chances of a squib or double charge what if the battery is dead? I do not believe the auto index adds anything to safety.

All that being said I will say that both the Hornady and the Dillon will work very well for the OP. Just weigh your skill, needs, preferences and buy the machine that you believe will work best for you.

Kull

02-27-2013, 03:35 PM

While I do believe a powder check die decreases the chances of a squib or double charge what if the battery is dead? I do not believe the auto index adds anything to safety.

I agree with you completely that paying attention and using your head is the number one thing. As long as your doing that you will probably notice that for the first two strokes of the press, when there is no case full of powder at the third station, the buzzer is not sounding as it should. Added safety features are no more of a convenience than a reserve parachute. The definitely serve a function.

For what it's worth I started on a 650. Started with no case feeder and no powder check. Auto indexing and case feed of the 650 make it a better beginners progressive than the 550. There's a lot going on at once with any progressive. Those two features, more than the powder check, make it better for a beginner simply because that's two less things on that large list of things going on. The powder check is a bonus.

johnnybar

02-27-2013, 03:40 PM

If a device can improve one's odds of a mishap not occurring, from say 1:100,000 to 1:1,000,000, pray tell, why should we not employ the use of that device and recommend it to others?

Because they don't improve the odds if a person is careful about reloading.

Huh? What? Sometimes it's better to just give up! lol Signing off and moving on.

A pause for the COZ

02-27-2013, 03:54 PM

RCBS presses charge on the back side. 357 mag brass. Forget about seeing the charge in the case. Even if you do look a powder check die is a nice feature.
It even catches under or over charges. Mine has caught 3 over charges that i can think of. Wont ever not use one.

Alvarez Kelly

02-27-2013, 03:55 PM

If you read the original post, he was concerned about dollars. In my opinion, the best quality progressive for the money is the Dillon 550. The LnL and the Dillon 650 are both optimized for a casefeeder. To keep costs down (for the guy asking for advice) the Dillon 550 makes sense.

I disagree with comments about the 550 not being a good press for a beginner. The manual advance is actually a great benefit to a beginner. He can check EVERYTHING before advancing the shellplate. It is a great confidence builder.

And of course, the original poster is not a rank beginner.

Buy a Dillon. Any Dillon. If history repeats itself, you could sell it in a few years for more than you paid for it. There are not too many tools you can buy in this world that go up in value.

joehaberxxx

02-27-2013, 04:41 PM

I'm a new kid on the block here but after reading Johnnybar's post it make me appreciate my Hornady progressive press (pre LnL) even more. I had not considered how convenient it is to insert a case and bullet with your left hand only while keeping your right hand on the operating handle, plus being able to lean forward a little and check to make sure your primer is in the pocket and to do a visual powder check. I wanted to tell you a story about a friend of mine that was moving and had his reloading bench complete with Dillon 650 press mounted on it. It fell off the back of the pickup and broke the press body in half. He sent the pieces to Dillon and they replaced the press. One more thing about the Hornady press and that is I have seen engine pistons smaller that the ram on the Hornady

Love Life

02-27-2013, 04:46 PM

Welcome aboard Joehaber!!!

btroj

02-27-2013, 05:02 PM

Matt_G

02-27-2013, 07:25 PM

Mischief
May I suggest you go to http://ultimatereloader.com/ and watch the videos of both the 550 and LNL in action.

gefiltephish

02-27-2013, 07:43 PM

Regarding btroj's comment:

I started with a progressive. It was a hand-me-down loadmaster which is best used as a door stop, but at least I learned a lot using it for a year. Just like any other press, on a progressive nothing happens until you pull the handle, until then you can look over each station as long as you want to make sure all is ok. I suspect someone that is too stupid to handle that is also too stupid to be reloading at all. I had very few problems that weren't directly related to the loadmaster itself.

Next I got the LNL - what a relief and a really nice press! After that I got an LCT for short runs - another really nice press. I've never used a Dillon, but have considered an SDB to leave set up just for 45acp. I couldn't care less what "color" the press is, what counts for me is that it suits my needs.

I know the OP said he "wants" a progressive, but based on what he stated about his volume, all he really "needs" is an LCT. He may even be happier with it. I just wish it had 5 or 6 stations. Yeah I know, we're never satisfied! :)

FLHTC

02-27-2013, 08:03 PM

I can't understand why the answers to the original post became skewed so quickly. The question was about progressives, not turrets. I don't believe there is such thing as an entry level progressive but some will be a one time purchase, as opposed to replacing one that wears out. All progressives index automatically and the stations are in the same order from press to press. The engineering is what sets them apart from each other and provides more durability in some, more than others. I hear comments about chains, disks, hollow tubing for rams and constant tinkering. If ya want to avoid all these things, buy a high end press. I personally prefer Dillon presses and always will. Im convinced they'll last me my entire life and still have value when im gone.

Love Life

02-27-2013, 08:14 PM

The 550 does not index automatically. It is manual index.

Kull

02-27-2013, 10:35 PM

Why manual advance? Because I am in control of when it moves a case. Same reason i don't like powder check dies.
Reliance on a mechanical device can lead to complacency.
Sort of like people who wave around loaded guns with the safety on. I don't trust a mechanical device, I trust ME.

I don't think a person new to reloading should be near a progressive. A person new to a progressive should load a single case at a time until he is comfortable with what happens at each station. Understand what moves, what is done, and how. Having many things happening at once is tough to keep an eye on at first. Safety first.

Safety first, yet unwilling to embrace safety devices because they're scared of becoming complacent. You hear the same thing from people who absolutely hate loaded chamber indicators. I think it's an ego trip thing more than anything, I'm with johnnybar and just gonna give up.

btroj

02-27-2013, 10:46 PM

Biggest safety device lies between the ears. I use mine.
I pay attention. I have a routine. When in doubt I stop, dump the powder, and recharge the case.

Ego trip? Not at all. It is the voice of experience. Over 15 years with a 550 and no double charges. Maybe I do this because it just works?

johnnybar

02-27-2013, 11:12 PM

Cost:
LNL AP $440 + 500 free bullets, depending on bullet selected, a $117 to $160 value at the pre-panic prices.
LNL AP Total $280-$323 Sounds like a bargain and an even better one if you sell your free bullets online or at a show.

XL650 $566

grampa243

02-27-2013, 11:50 PM

i'll +1 for the dillon 550b. works great for me and i only load 100-200 at a time but will never go back to a one stage press.

I load 45 acp; 223 rem(5.56mm); 22-250 rem; 243 win; 30-30 win; 308 win; 45-70 gov.
and i'm waiting for my 9mm dies and shell holder to come and start loading them too.

i keep one extra tool head for other dies like the universal de-primer when i have to get out crimped ones.

as far as powder measures go i have not had trouble with the dillon's but you can put other brands on it. i do find that i like to use ball and short grain powders more then others.

Love Life

02-28-2013, 12:28 AM

Safety first, yet unwilling to embrace safety devices because they're scared of becoming complacent. You hear the same thing from people who absolutely hate loaded chamber indicators. I think it's an ego trip thing more than anything, I'm with johnnybar and just gonna give up.

I understand how the powder die is a safety device, but can somebody please explain how auto index is a safety design or device?

Love Life

02-28-2013, 12:30 AM

Cost:
LNL AP $407 + 500 free bullets; depending on bullet selected, a $117 to $160 value at the pre-panic prices. $247-$290 Sounds like a bargain and even better if you sell your free bullets online.

With the free bullets thrown in and resold the price point of the Hornady is much better than the Dillon.

1bluehorse

02-28-2013, 01:05 AM

Tastes great!! Less filling!!

I would also like to add, if the manual indexing is one of the attributes that makes the 550 so attractive and safe...then my RCBS 5 STATION manual indexing press would be even better....that gives a person room for one of those unneeded powder cop dies..if needed..or not..:drinks:

johnnybar

02-28-2013, 01:22 AM

Alvarez Kelly

02-28-2013, 02:23 AM

Here is a current price comparison. If anyone knows of the 650 having a current on sale price, please let me know. LNL AP price listed includes one shell plate. I assume the 650 comes with one shell plate. Dies and components should be the only additional costs.

LNL AP $440 + 500 free bullets, depending on bullet selected, a $117 to $160 value at the pre-panic prices.
LNL AP Total $280-$323 Sounds like a bargain and an even better one if you sell your free bullets online or at a show.

XL650 $566

So cheap is good? I don't follow the resale value of Hornady products, but I have never lost a dime on any Dillon products owned more than a few years. A Square Deal bought at retail 10 to 15 years ago can now be sold for a nice profit. Same with the 450s, 550s, all the 1050s, and even the RL300!

Life cycle costs are just as important as initial costs. Think trade in value on a used car... Do you want a Hyundai or a Honda?

johnnybar

02-28-2013, 04:31 AM

If you read the original post, he was concerned about dollars.You seemed to be sincerely concerned about economy before prices were posted.

Now....

So cheap is good? I don't follow the resale value of Hornady products, but I have never lost a dime on any Dillon products owned more than a few years. A Square Deal bought at retail 10 to 15 years ago can now be sold for a nice profit. Same with the 450s, 550s, all the 1050s, and even the RL300!

Life cycle costs are just as important as initial costs. Think trade in value on a used car... Do you want a Hyundai or a Honda?On value, why not do a little home work before jumping into this subject matter? It will only take a little longer than the post you just made. Oh well, I'll save you the effort. Not too many used LNL's to get current resale on but, I did find 4 basic AP units that sold from $490 to $560. Remember the new press cost?...$280-$323. I guess not too many are letting them go....hmmm. When looking at the facts, I just don't see the down side my friend.

OP,
As many have stated, they will all roll loads. Just look at the features and invest in the ones you want and can afford with both eyes open and your CPU online. Most importantly, have fun regardless of what you bolt to the bench. That's really what it's all about!

johnnybar

02-28-2013, 05:43 AM

I don't think a person new to reloading should be near a progressive. A person new to a progressive should load a single case at a time until he is comfortable with what happens at each station. Understand what moves, what is done, and how. Having many things happening at once is tough to keep an eye on at first. Safety first. I'm not 100% sure about Dillons, but I believe all progressives can be single case cycled for a learning curve that can last as long as needed. Primers will remain in the anvil cup and powder will not drop unless a case is present. Regardless of press used, a mentor is always a good idea for beginners whether they are 15 or 50.

Lloyd Smale

02-28-2013, 08:19 AM

Im with btoj on this. I dont think auto or mechanical advance means a pinch of difference in saftey and ive personaly loaded for 35 years and probably 25 of those on progressive presses and never saw any need to spend good money on a powder check as long as i have eyes. Problems crop up with either design when your trying to see how many rounds of ammo you can make in an hour. Slow down and make 50 less and watch what your doing and either design is VERY reliable and safe. A guy will fill a case block of pistol shells with a powder dump and not use a powder check to make sure every one is filled properly. You use your eyes to tell. Bottom line is in all my years of loading on progressives ive never seen an improperly charged case if i was using proper powders for progressive loading (ie ball powders) I NEVER use stick powders when progressively loading.

Bottom line is a 550 is as safe as anything other loading too. If it wasnt do your really think in this day of frivilous lawsuits that dillon would still make it and dont you think if they really thought a powder check die was the answer to this non problem theyd install one from the factory and make you pay for it in the cost to cover there asses. Id bet my bottom dollar that if even one person had ever got hurt and filed suit against dillon we all would know about it.
Why manual advance? Because I am in control of when it moves a case. Same reason i don't like powder check dies.
Reliance on a mechanical device can lead to complacency.
Sort of like people who wave around loaded guns with the safety on. I don't trust a mechanical device, I trust ME.

I don't think a person new to reloading should be near a progressive. A person new to a progressive should load a single case at a time until he is comfortable with what happens at each station. Understand what moves, what is done, and how. Having many things happening at once is tough to keep an eye on at first. Safety first.

Alvarez Kelly

02-28-2013, 11:17 AM

This statement:

I did find 4 basic AP units that sold from $490 to $560.

Makes me question this:

Remember the new press cost?...$280-$323

So, which is it? Where can you buy a LnL for $280? I might buy one for that just to play with it.

johnnybar

02-28-2013, 02:58 PM

This statement:

Makes me question this:

So, which is it? Where can you buy a LnL for $280? I might buy one for that just to play with it.
A'K',
Try going back and reading the post for the "current price comparison". You quoted it in your #61 post. With their huge presence in ammunition and component manufacturing, Hornady is able to offer package deals that others can't match. Heck, when I bought my AP, I got 1000 free XTP bullets! My press was a big time bargain! Please spend a little time using your favorite search engine and verify any information posted by others that appears doubtful. Try looking at a couple of the most well known auction sites for used prices and some of the well known retailers new prices and rebates. Forum policy does not allow posting of links to them. If you still aren't able to find the pricing and you are sincerely wanting it, PM your email and I will get you fixed up. Good Shootin' jb

Alvarez Kelly

02-28-2013, 05:53 PM

A'K',
Try going back and reading the post for the "current price comparison". You quoted it in your #61 post. With their huge presence in ammunition and component manufacturing, Hornady is able to offer package deals that others can't match. Heck, when I bought my AP, I got 1000 free XTP bullets! My press was a big time bargain! Please spend a little time using your favorite search engine and verify any information posted by others that appears doubtful. Try looking at a couple of the most well known auction sites for used prices and some of the well known retailers new prices and rebates. Forum policy does not allow posting of links to them. If you still aren't able to find the pricing and you are sincerely wanting it, PM your email and I will get you fixed up. Good Shootin' jb

I guess I see your point now. You valued the jacketed bullets as a way to reduce the overall cost of the press. Since I load cast boolits, those jacketed ones have little value to me.

I was excited for a minute there. I was willing to buy a LnL for $280 just to play with it!

johnnybar

02-28-2013, 09:19 PM

I guess I see your point now. You valued the jacketed bullets as a way to reduce the overall cost of the press. Since I load cast boolits, those jacketed ones have little value to me.

I was excited for a minute there. I was willing to buy a LnL for $280 just to play with it! You can! The bullets have value to thousands and thousands of reloaders and shop owners willing to pay premium prices for them. I kept my 1000 XTP's as that is what I shot in my 44 mag hot loads and experimented with in several muzzleloaders using sabots. But, any time I want to sell the remaining boxes, they are like money in the bank.

colt1960

02-28-2013, 09:35 PM

I bought a dillon 450 for my starting press, later sold it for more than I paid. upgraded to the dillon 550b. Dillon is the best in my book. I also use a RCBS Rock Chucker for anything I do with a single stage. Good luck with whatever you end up with! Rick.

-Mischief

03-02-2013, 11:53 AM

Well, I thank all of you for the overwhelming response! It looks like I'll have an initial expense $1300-1400 for a 650 with the shell plates, die sets, trays, etc that I'll need for the cartidges I currently load...which are 9mm, 40 sw, 45 acp, 223, 257 wby and 6.5x284 norma. I'll load my BR stuff on my chucker.

A pause for the COZ

03-03-2013, 01:18 PM

I guess I see your point now. You valued the jacketed bullets as a way to reduce the overall cost of the press. Since I load cast boolits, those jacketed ones have little value to me.

I was excited for a minute there. I was willing to buy a LnL for $280 just to play with it!

You could buy the press and order the 500 bullets, then sell the projectiles.
I just purchased 500 nice Hornady 150 gr 3031's for a $100 from some one who obviously just got a LNL AP. 100 bucks is a 100 bucks.

hiram1

03-03-2013, 01:24 PM

Buy a DILLON and cry only one time.It cost a little more but well worth it in the long run.and makes good rounds.I love the ones i have.

johnnybar

03-03-2013, 03:43 PM

I would be tickled to open red or blue on christmas morning. But if it were coming out of my pocket and I knew all the factual differences posted in this thread, I would go red every time. Again both great presses, just some major and minor differences. Then there's the credit card whammy on the blue choice that just isn't there with red. I guestimate that the LNL AP can be set up for approx half of your Dillon total. Shell plates are $32 and die bushings run about $4 each. IIRC LNL can dump up to 75 gr of powder and 650 can go to around 55 gr. Over that, an additional powder bar is required for the dillon press. The LNL powder measure is the gold standard designed by RCBS and Redding. The LNL powder linkage works so well that RCBS bought rights from Hornady and uses it on RCBS presses. That $100 bargain price for the sold bullets posted above is a bargain today at 20 cents per bullet and a sure bet to sell immediately. That brings the AP down to $307. 2 or 3 extra shellplates...add $65 - $100. Dies are pretty much equal $$ depending on preferred brand. So we are back to $407 + dies/bushings. That's a long way from your blue price.
Have fun either way and Good Shootin' !
jb

DCM

03-04-2013, 11:49 PM

Buy a DILLON and cry only one time.It cost a little more but well worth it in the long run.and makes good rounds.I love the ones i have.

Big +1 on that!
I had a big red H progressive that caused me to get something much more reliable and repeatable in blue.

If you are looking for a starter progressive try a Lee, it will be less than 1/2 the cost of the Hornady.

jack007

03-05-2013, 12:01 AM

I have had years worth of good luck with a xl 650. I have been told lee works well but have not used one.

RoGrrr

03-05-2013, 12:57 AM

Mischief
I disagree with David on " Let the amount of reloading you do be your guide"
Buy the Dillon 650 and load to your heart's content. You'll find that you will shoot more and enjoy it more. What you are doing is better than putting $$$$ in the bank.
What really bothers me is his attitude on QUANTITY. Buy the 650 for the HOBBY ENJOYMENT you WILL get out of it. It's not about quantity. It's called QUALITY. You will crank out more ammo than you would be willing to enjoy, just bcuz you can enjoy reloading. As my good friend, Rush says, something about "more fun than a human being should be allowed to have" !
IF (not when) you ever tire of shooting/reloading you can sell it for AT LEAST AS MUCH as you paid for it.
The 650 was my first progressive metallic loader and I do not regret it one bit. Yes, I considered it to be an entry level progressive, especially after reading all the diatribe on many boards. I've loaded well over 10,000 in the year I've had it and am thinking about buying another one in a different caliber just so I don't have to change anything.
I like the AUTO-INDEXING of the 650, which is why I bought it rather than the 550. As Kull said, "Auto index gives the (relatively) new reloader one less thing to worry about". There is almost no worry about a double charge with auto-index.
Also, it allows for the powder check option, not that it's really needed but is a neat "feel-good" feature. BTW, I bought mine used and it has ALL the options. I think I paid about 90% of retail new price but it also was set up to load 2 other calibers which I shoot - convenient for me in the long run; all the dies, primer feeders, shell plates and powder measures for them. It also has the auto case feeder which makes things go so smoothly and incredibly FAST. I was under $2K for all I got and don't regret anything. Yes, I would do it again. Basically a turn-key operation with ALL the options/bells/whistles/handles/mounts one could want for all 3 calibers.
johnnybar says:
HORNADY has equal customer service. I say that Dillon's NO BS customer service (which I have used several times. Things break, you know) and never having to pay for any replacement parts is somewhat of a plus. Besides, if they make any mods, you get them, too ! Granted, I have never loaded on a Hornady but I would try one if given the chance.
I still like what the Dillon shows me. I had loaded plenty of shotshells on progressives, going back 50 years and learned that precision loaders (TEXAN and Ljutic shotshell loaders) were quite valuable. I'd loaded on those chevy/ford-type loaders (MEC) but graduated to Texans and Ljutic and never looked back. That's why I decided to take the plunge to the Dillon. Love 'em and have no regrets. However, I won't belittle the LNL and their fans. Whichever one you buy, (you'll) be happy with it and shoot MORE !

I'm RoGrrr and I MORE THAN approve this message.
BTW, Us people who use Dillon loaders don't bite. We SHOOT !

-Mischief

03-05-2013, 09:35 AM

I hope their customer service is better than their sales service! I called and called and called them Friday and Saturday, ended up leaving 2 messages...then sent them an email through their site...still no reply or call!

RoGrrr

03-05-2013, 10:40 AM

The manufacturers being discussed are Dillon, Hornady and Lee. So who was it you called ?

I hope their customer service is better than their sales service! I called and called and called them Friday and Saturday, ended up leaving 2 messages...then sent them an email through their site...still no reply or call!

-Mischief

03-05-2013, 10:47 AM

Sorry...Dillon. I'm going to go with a 650

RoGrrr

03-05-2013, 11:00 AM

Mischief
I'm confident you will be more than satisfied with your Dillon 650.
As mentioned, I bought mine used and as I started setting it up I found a couple minor parts that were either worn or broken and I didn't have to justify ANYTHING for them to offer to send replacements. I was wondering why they were so friendly and easy to deal with. I was just not ready for their NO BS policy but I find it's something that they are built around. I had some other questions which they promptly and happily answered.
I'm not sure why you didn't get an anyone to answer their fone. It would be neat if they had a cute number, something like 1-800-dillon but....
Orders/expert assistance - 800-223-4570
Order status/basic orders - 800-762-3845
catalog requests - 800-762-3844 (and all their catalogs have attractive models on the covers)

You might also update your user CPT and tell us what state you're in. Inquiring minds want to k now.

r1kk1

03-05-2013, 11:05 AM

I was in their shop last Saturday and it was crowded to say the least. Every company at this time is working overtime and can't keep up. They quoted 13 weeks for rebuilding my SD. I was even approached in the parking lot by two customers who were quite interested in the press.

I've seen shortages before where components are scare but not equipment!

Take care

r1kk1

RoGrrr

03-05-2013, 04:09 PM

r1kk1
I find it amusing, that you were approached in the parking lot. Since I usually have PLENTY of inventory and don't have to worry about running my machine very often, I would have considered asking for an offer to sell my machine. If it were sweet enough, I'da taken the $$$$ and just ordered a new one, accepting the 3 or 4 month lead time or used it to buy gold/silver, but still ordered the new machine....
But that's just me as I plan ahead, and I'm willing to take some risks.

Several years ago, while I was still working, several of the younkers in my office were talking about buying some guns. I advised them to buy as many guns as they wanted AND buying ALL THE AMMO THEY COULD AFFORD (I was working with an affluent group of educated and practical engineers). Beyond that, I suggested buying at least one box of ammo EVERY WEEK. If they also want to shoot/practice to improve their skills, buy an extra box specifically for practice but store all the excess. I said that the current regime would do its darndest to outlaw anything and everything to with guns/shooting. HOARD it and NEVER RUN OUT of something that will be worth more than gold !
I also suggested storing non-perishable food stuffs.
I have to wonder if any of them are now thinking back to my WILD advice to buy/store/hoard anything and everything.

[QUOTE=r1kk1;2096171]
<SNIP>
I was even approached in the parking lot by two customers who were quite interested in the press.
I've seen shortages before where components are scare but not equipment!
<SNIP>

r1kk1

03-05-2013, 05:28 PM

I really wasn't there to sell it. It's an 80s press that has served me well. The wait time to refurbish isn't an issue. I just thought it was different to be approached. Strange questions from, "Is that a Dillon?" to "What stuff does it load? Or "What's wrong with it?" Just weird for me. I walked into the store and a lot of stuff was sold out.

If I do sell, it will sell for more than I paid for it.

Take care,

r1kk1

Stampedeboss

03-06-2013, 02:24 AM

You can try Brian Enos to order, same price put free shipping. Google it.

Alvarez Kelly

03-06-2013, 02:34 AM

You can try Brian Enos to order, same price put free shipping. Google it.

I just PM'd the OP the same info! Free shipping is free shipping! Plus you can order on his website 24/7.

LUBEDUDE

03-06-2013, 03:04 AM

Brian Enos has great service. Though he is bound by Dillon and the crunch as well.

-Mischief

03-06-2013, 11:15 AM

You can try Brian Enos to order, same price put free shipping. Google it.For Dillon presses?

Alvarez Kelly

03-06-2013, 12:18 PM

For Dillon presses?

Yes. :-)

LUBEDUDE

03-06-2013, 03:18 PM

http://www.brianenos.com/store/dillon.html

-Mischief

03-06-2013, 03:21 PM

Got it! I've already got my cart full..lol

Cane_man

03-06-2013, 10:53 PM

-Mischief

03-07-2013, 09:30 AM

Hornady LnL AP.... takes a little tinkering to push through the break-in, but works like a dream after that... this press is not for plug-n-play type people, you gotta have basic shop toos/machines and feel comfortable tinkering to own this press... imo it is the best design and valueThen it's NOT for me. I'm not a tinkerer nor am I mechanically inclined. I want to get it set up and not touch it unless changing calibers.

Cane_man

03-07-2013, 02:35 PM

^^^ i can understand that... however, imo you should know how your press works because even if it is a baby blue Di$$on it will break at some point, and you want to be able to repair if possible...

r1kk1

03-07-2013, 06:28 PM

^^^ i can understand that... however, imo you should know how your press works because even if it is a baby blue Di$$on it will break at some point, and you want to be able to repair if possible...

There is a big difference between tweaking and repair. Phone call later, I have parts. I replace part and go back loading. I don't need to modify part to work which can be describe as tweaking. The last poster said he wasn't into tinkering to make a press work. I understand that. Nor would I.

I do take my 550 down to bare bones for its annual cleaning. Extremely simple press.

Take care

r1kk1

Love Life

03-07-2013, 07:49 PM

-Mischief

03-07-2013, 08:02 PM

Exactly. If I had the time and patience to mess with it, I'd just by a Lee Pro 1000. I just want to get it set up and use it. I also want to be able to leave it and come back a few days later and not have to "tinker" with it. Looking for less hassle. That's all

Cane_man

03-07-2013, 10:34 PM

^^^ nothing to tinker on the LnL with once you have it dialed it, runs flawlessly...

Cane_man

03-07-2013, 10:39 PM

There is a big difference between tweaking and repair. Phone call later, I have parts. I replace part and go back loading. I don't need to modify part to work which can be describe as tweaking. The last poster said he wasn't into tinkering to make a press work. I understand that. Nor would I.

I do take my 550 down to bare bones for its annual cleaning. Extremely simple press.

Take care

r1kk1

tweaking is not repair, there is some setup for any new press even the highly worshiped and adored baby blue Di$$on :roll:

the poster said he wasn't even "mechanically inclined", so if your Di$$on breaks down and they send you the part he may not even be able to replace it!

some like to tinker and some aren't up for it :mrgreen: i compared all the features of the Di$$on and the LnL and for me the LnL was hands down a much better design, not to mention $200 less and you get 500 free bullets and you get a true auto progressive press not an inverted turret press... anyway, to each his own :drinks:

Cane_man

03-07-2013, 10:42 PM

There is nothing I enjoy more in life then shelling out several hundred bucks for a press so I can tinker with it to get it to run like a dream. Buying a Dillon that works like a dream right out of the box, now, just seems plain silly.

in this case you will be shelling out several hundred dollars more for a press that isn't even a true auto progressive press... not much tinkering at all to get the LnL setup to run flawlessly, some are willing and then the rest shell out the extra bucks for the Di$$on :???:

johnnybar

03-08-2013, 02:32 AM

Sorry...Dillon. I'm going to go with a 650

Did you decide to get the case and bullet feeder?

Love Life

03-08-2013, 12:09 PM

in this case you will be shelling out several hundred dollars more for a press that isn't even a true auto progressive press... not much tinkering at all to get the LnL setup to run flawlessly, some are willing and then the rest shell out the extra bucks for the Di$$on :???:

You don't say.

Not much tinkering at all huh? I prefer no tinkering. Assemble, set dies, and reload until my arm is tired. That is worth the money to me, and my Dillon is now worth double on the free market than I paid for it.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA

03-10-2013, 11:32 AM

Not all presses require tinkering out of the box, but some do, including the Dillons. Some presses don't work and never will work out of the box. My 550 never worked right and was eventually replaced. Some presses rarely need replacement parts, like my Hornady LnL. It needed adjustment when it was setup after being moved and that was about it. It stayed clean enough I rarely cleaned it, but I grew bored with it after a decade and replaced it with an RCBS Pro 2000. It was problematic out of the box, but I later figured out the wholesale distributor I got it from had it in their warehouse a long time and it was from a batch with a defectively machined subplate (just my luck). RCBS replaced the subplate, I got it adjust and it's been boringly reliable ever since with zero primer feed issues once everything was back together and adjusted from replacing the subplate. Most presses, regardless of manufacturer, do have an issue at some point. For Dillon, I often see owners saying "This or that part broke and Dillon sent it to me for free." The part often ignored is lots of Dillon parts break, causing down time for their presses.

What's the bottom line on all the paragraph I just posted? EVERY single brand of progressive press has issues. Let me repeat that: EVERY SINGLE BRAND HAS PROBLEMS AT SOME POINT. They are machines, designed to mass produce (albeit at a low volume compared to industrial machinery) reloaded ammunition. Machines break, they need to be adjusted, they need to be maintained, they sometimes come with defective parts, etc.

Probably the best advice I ever got from an older reloader when I was shopping progressive presses was: "Look at all the brands, compare the features, try to use each brand you're interested to get a feel for how it works. Select the features that appeal to you. Stay within your budget or save until you can get the press you want. Once you've done that, take the time to learn the press you've bought, set it up correctly, learn to maintain it, learn it's quirks and how it is best operated. Then you will get all you can get out of both the press and your experience."

So buy the one that appeals to you after you've read through and understand what the press's positive and weak points are. Google is your friend. Do not be swayed by any color kool aid.

Having said that, I now own reloading equipment from most all manufacturers out there. I now buy what's the best tool I can find for the specific application (cartridge load) I am looking to set up for to get the best results. It's working really well for me and my cartridges are much better now than when I first started reloading.

LUBEDUDE

03-10-2013, 06:00 PM

Amen Dave

Couldn't have said it any better. And my blood runs Blue!

-Mischief

05-14-2013, 12:56 PM

Matt_G

05-14-2013, 05:35 PM

Call Hornady.
I'm sure they can get you up and running.

-Mischief

05-14-2013, 05:37 PM

Tried...was on hold for a total of about an hour over 3 different attempts. :-x

r1kk1

05-14-2013, 07:14 PM

FWIW,

I bought my 550 a long time ago. Read the manual after bolting to the bench, adjusted the dies and loaded 1000 rounds of 45 acp. Switched toolheads and loaded 100 30-06s after die adjustments, etc., etc., etc.

Really nothing to it. Simple and reliable.

Take care

r1kk1

1bluehorse

05-14-2013, 09:59 PM

armedmoose

05-16-2013, 09:30 AM

Sounds like your Pawls need adjustment: Follow the manual closely to adjust properly. (Small increments, correct pawl for upstroke or downstoke, etc.)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o770/gemoose23/HornadyLNLAP_Pawls_1_zpse3aedb22.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o770/gemoose23/HornadyLNLAP_Pawls_2_zpsa2786eb2.jpg

Snap a Picture of your Decapping die in place with the shellplate all the way up. Die setup on an LNL-AP, you can follow the die setup directions, there isn't any special instructions to get dies to work on an LNL-AP.

On Hornady, remember they are on Central (nebraska) time and get their early in the morning, I always get a CS response within 10 mins in the mornings.

Good LUCK!

johnh57

05-16-2013, 11:43 AM

I'm new with the LNL myself - If you mess with the pawls be cautious. One thing I noticed while adjusting the left hand pawl on mine is that it is easy to raise the pawl too far. The top surface of the pawls is ground at an angle, or bevel. If you raise the pawl far enough so that the unground diameter of the pawl engages the gear you could do a lot of damage in a hurry.

timtonya

05-17-2013, 11:51 AM

I'm so happy I sold my loadmaster boat anchor and bought a 550. I got so sick and tired of tinkering. I spent more time tinkering than loading. Yes dillon cost more but its worth it. Go thru Brian enos. Great guy and he answers emails in a timely fashion.

ColColt

05-17-2013, 12:04 PM

After reading all this, I'm glad I still have and use my RCBS Jr press. No tweaking and no parts to break in over 30 years...slow but precise.

DLCTEX

05-19-2013, 01:46 AM

For 1500 rounds a year I would go with Lee Classic Cast turret. Not a progressive but a solid press that can handle it all economically.

rtp

05-20-2013, 08:30 PM

Ended up getting the LnL. If it doesn't work out then I'll get a 650 but for now..it's red.

I have it set up but I have a couple of small "quarks".

#1 - The shell plate does NOT completely cycle. I read about the left and right screws that can be adjusted but I wanted to get opinions before I go "tinkering" (there's that word again) with it. When indexing with a full stroke, the detents will reach the next wholes...but not everytime. I would say that all is good about 50% of the time. Anyway...what is the best way to properly adjust this?

#2 - I have only tried loading 9mm Luger so far. The problem I'm having here is the first station, depriming. I have the base of the die as low as I can go and the deprimer pin as far in as I can get it into the die...it still doesn't deprime.

Any suggestions?

The best explanation I've seen for the LnL timing is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5450659&postcount=36
Go in SMALL increments, one pawl at a time! Once it's set, it's unlikely you'll need to touch it again for thousands of rounds or more.

A few other random tips that will help get your LnL (and you/your ammo) singing:
a. Remove the primer slide. Use a stone or sandpaper and block, or even metal polish it, but debur/smooth it up, in particular around the edge that slides into the shellplate.
b. Putting a small bevel (leave the topside alone, remove a small amount of material towards the underside) to create a tiny debris 'channel' at the leading edge of the primer slide will save you from future annoyance as inevitably powder flakes may get in there. This sounds harder than it is, doesn't take more than a few minutes.
c. Adjust the primer 'cam bar' - sorry, don't know it's official name offhand, but this is the bar the primer slider roller rides against. Remove primers, primer tube, 'blast tube,' leave plate screwed to press. Loosen slightly the allen key on black plastic piece at top of primer cam bar. Lower press handle so it puts the primer shuttle in the rearmost position, and look down into hole. You want the primer pickup hole in the shuttle to be dead center, or better, just slightly rearward of dead center. Adjust the bar position until it's so, tighten allen key, put together and forget about it.
d. De-grease the powder measure...more than once. They pack this thing with the equivalent of cosmoline, and it drove me nuts when I first bought it with 'inconsistent powder drops.' Spray it down with a de-greaser or One Shot, soak it in Dawn + water, repeat. Let dry, spray lightly with One Shot or other dry lube. Assemble with rifle powder (large) rotor, and cycle a # or two of powder through it manually, from hopper back to container, repeat. Wrap an dryer sheet and rubber band around the outside of the hopper tube, and rub down the inside with one. Drop in the baffle with the 'top of the tent' in alignment with the metering insert. Your measure will now reliably drop +/- .1gr or better.
e. Pick up a split washer/lock washer, put under the shellplate allen bolt - saves the shellplate from ever loosening up if you haven't snugged it quite tight enough.
f. I know there's an f. and maybe g. but I can't think of they at the moment, adjusting the timing properly and the above should have you going nicely.

Good luck - it's a great press!

fredj338

05-21-2013, 01:27 AM

The problem is you are not pricing them equip the same. If you want a case feeder, the 650 comes with all the parts but the bowl, the LNL does not. So when you add a case feeder, the diff in price is less than $75. BTW, NO one has LNL AP for $323, no one. CLoser to $400. Other things included in the 650 not on the LNL, a conversion kit for the caliber you want, so add another $50. The "free" bullets are not any bullet, so little value to me. Add it up, sim equip, the 650 is less than $75 more. For that you get a far better case feeder & priming system.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5988

Cost:
LNL AP $440 + 500 free bullets, depending on bullet selected, a $117 to $160 value at the pre-panic prices.
LNL AP Total $280-$323 Sounds like a bargain and an even better one if you sell your free bullets online or at a show.

XL650 $566

FWIW, anyone that calls the manual indexing 550 anything but a progressive, just doesn't understand the process. It is a full progressive, yo ujust manually index it & as noted before, there is no speed advantage to auto indexing, none.

fredj338

05-21-2013, 01:33 AM

For 1500 rounds a year I would go with Lee Classic Cast turret. Not a progressive but a solid press that can handle it all economically.
For that small of an amount of ammo, a ss press is fine, unless you need 1500rds in a few hours. Seriously, most of us do NOT need a progressive of any kind. If you are only loading 100rds a month, that is maybe two hrs on a ss press, why bother with the expense & complexity of any progressive?

Daddyfixit

05-21-2013, 02:38 AM

For that small of an amount of ammo, a ss press is fine, unless you need 1500rds in a few hours. Seriously, most of us do NOT need a progressive of any kind. If you are only loading 100rds a month, that is maybe two hrs on a ss press, why bother with the expense & complexity of any progressive?

So I can spend the other hour and 55 minutes surfing the forms!!:kidding:

Alvarez Kelly

05-21-2013, 03:13 AM

For that small of an amount of ammo, a ss press is fine, unless you need 1500rds in a few hours. Seriously, most of us do NOT need a progressive of any kind. If you are only loading 100rds a month, that is maybe two hrs on a ss press, why bother with the expense & complexity of any progressive?

Because it's easier on my tired old bones to pull the handle and out comes a completed round. Single Stage presses have there place, but I will ALWAYS have my Dillon 550s for cranking out ammo...

-Mischief

05-21-2013, 11:54 AM

fredj338

05-22-2013, 03:02 PM

Because it's easier on my tired old bones to pull the handle and out comes a completed round. Single Stage presses have there place, but I will ALWAYS have my Dillon 550s for cranking out ammo...
You get no argument from me, I love my 550, but 1500rds a year, no one "needs" a progressive for such a small amount of ammo. I load on a 550, 650 & still do a lot on my ss press. Most of my hunting calibers & some target stuff are done on the ss press. I rarely shoot more than 100rds of those calibers. The 223 & 308 get done on the 550 because I can shoot 100rds at a pop on range days.

-Mischief

05-22-2013, 03:08 PM

Does loosening the allen screws on the Pawls actually adjust something or is it just loosening them so they can be adjusted? Does that make sense? Do they need to be tightened back up after adjusting the pawls?

lka

05-22-2013, 03:11 PM

Get down there and cycle the press slowly, you can see why it off timing and looking at it you will see what way to move the fingers, I had to do the same thing. And yes read the manual, I never do, I was bored about a month after getting os read and had lots of duh moments. Can you take pics if the die? Something is funked up ;)

-Mischief

05-22-2013, 03:14 PM

I got the depriming thing all taken care of. As for the Pawls...I loosened the screws and it seems to make the Pawls raise and lower.(not sure if it's just my eyes or not) I actually have ervything adjusted very nicely right now, I'm just trying to find out if I need to tighten the screws back up or will that throw it all out of whack again?

lka

05-22-2013, 04:23 PM

lka

05-22-2013, 04:24 PM

-Mischief

05-22-2013, 05:13 PM

So, just to clarify...do NOT tighten the screws for the pawls after it's all set and indexing correctly?

MatteR

06-06-2013, 12:30 AM

So how is the LnL working out? I'm researching presses and would like to hear if you think you made the right choice.

-Mischief

06-06-2013, 08:56 AM

It's working great! I originally anticipated loading 1500-2000 rounds a year on it. I just wanted to be able to load them quickly, when I needed them or when I got "the itch". I've already loaded over 1000 rounds on it in the few weeks it's been up and running. I just received my Hornady bullet loader so that's the next project.
So how is the LnL working out? I'm researching presses and would like to hear if you think you made the right choice.

MatteR

06-06-2013, 09:46 AM

Very cool, thanks for the update. The LnL is definitely on my short list. Now i'm just waiting on my C&R to see if I can score a decent discount on a press.

It's working great! I originally anticipated loading 1500-2000 rounds a year on it. I just wanted to be able to load them quickly, when I needed them or when I got "the itch". I've already loaded over 1000 rounds on it in the few weeks it's been up and running. I just received my Hornady bullet loader so that's the next project.

Three44s

06-07-2013, 03:55 PM

mischief,

I just discovered this thread and read it from front to end ......... whew!!

No one actually answered your question about the pawl adjustment.

The allen screws are not for for tightening and loosening .... they are the adjustment.

Now that you got it working fine ..... that's good ....... if it's working ... don't mess with it.

I am a recent buyer ..... first of this year of a LNL and I researched this at great length before I bought in.

Unequivocally, I am a confirmed LNL owner now!

I like you had a little trouble with indexing ...... I have many plates and I adjusted the indexing in the begining and thought I had it whipped ........ but one plate out of many I bought later was giving me fits ........

That plate works well now after about 300 rounds so that is likely that but I also find that if you under tighten or over tighten the shell plate you can influence indexing. Also remember to lightly lube the index balls on the underside if the shell plate when you install it and perhaps now and then if you are loading a lot without changing it periodically.

The most important thing to remember about pawl adjustment is to go very easy .... it's recommended that you turn 1/32 of a turn at time ...... that's VERY slight .... and the second thing is to take a note pad and record your adjustment with particular attention to which pawl you moved and which way you turned it .... if things get worse ... you need a trail of bread crumbs to guide you back.

One other tip is to take the case retainer spring and give it a good cleaning and dry lube with the Hornady case lube. This spring contacts the shell plate just about 100% so it's role in affecting shell plate rotation can not be overstated. Your spring will last longer as well in my opinion.

I will say, I have loaded a TON with single stage and a fair amount with turrets. I have no hands on experience with Dillons. But I read a lot and if Dillons did not break ........ how do all these folks know that their warrantee service is so good?

?????

As other's have said ....... all is fallible ........... so to berate a Hornady because there are some tweaking and such is not telling the whole truth.

I like my Hornady because of value and performance ........ I have a auto index press that will load virtually any of my many calibers ..... handgun and rifle alike and it switches between cartridges with less effort and less cost.

A friend of mine who has never even see a progressive before started loading on my LNL ........ I'd do the caliber change and he'd bring his components and have at it. Right off he loaded 50 rounds of .30 Carbine in his first 15 minutes as he was just getting the feel of it ....... I left the room and went back to the house ......... in no time he was knocking on my back door and told me he was DONE ... with the total of 300 rds. ........... Next visit I set him up for .41 mag .......... same result ........ next, he rounded up all of his .38 special and same result ...........

I never told him he needed to get his own LNL .............. he was welcome to use mine! But last week he bought his own! I'll help him set it up and he'll be off like a scalded dog as well.

That's my take on it!

Best regards

Three 44s

-Mischief

06-07-2013, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the definitive answer. I was concerned because the pawls seem to move around just a little bit now that I have backed the screws out a touch in order to adjust them. I'll leave them be and continue loading!