I am so mad I won't sleep for a week

[Boerrancher]

I just found out that my father's guns were removed from his home by his wife's son and several of them have been sold, some of which were mine that dad was keeping for me while I was in Afghanistan, and never bothered to get back because I thought they were safe. I was waiting for the court to say I could take possession of them. When I found out I blew a gasket. Dad's two AR's were sold, his and my black hawk mine being an old flat top 357 was sold, and my 300 ultra mag was sold. I made it clear that before any guns were moved I was to go through them. I am suppose to get the remaining ones back but I don't know what to do about the ones that are gone. I am so so mad, I can't even stand to be around myself. How do I go about getting my guns back?

Mad as hell,

Joe

[Love Life]

If they were not the son's to sell I would report them as stolen. Let the son suffer the consequences of the charge, paying back the monies to the purchasers, and whatever else comes.

Somebody's son would have a serious slip and fall in the near future if it were me.

[Cactus Farmer]

My thoughts as well.

[nhrifle]

This is their mess, let them clean it up. They sold guns that were not theirs to sell. Let them call the people they sold them to, get them back, and give them back to you. If they refuse to do that, as stated, press charges for theft.

[williamwaco]

Ditto

[Olevern]

If it's a community property state, you're beat. I had a friend in Tx. that I used to hunt with on his ranch. He had a young son that I grew fond of and over the course of about five years I gifted 9 or 10 firearms to (not junk either, a Ruger #1, Marlin 45-70, Ruger Single six, etc., etc.) I made it clear to the boys parents that these were the boys guns, not to be sold or traded away or otherwise disposed with until he became of age and legal ownership could be transferred to him.
Boy's mom left them to live with her boyfriend nobody knew about, took his guns and sold them.

I traveled to Tx. with fire in my eyes to consult a lawyer and bring the wrath of the law down upon her....guess, what...lawyer told me nothing could be done as it was a community law state, the guns were transferred over to the father, but instantly became also the mother's property, so if she wanted to dispose of them, she had the right.

Only thing I can see that can be done is on any firearms you can prove you owned....On those I would attempt to press charges for theft....but that's just me.

[TCFAN]

Call the sheriff and report YOUR guns stolen. Seems to me from what you said
here that is what happened..............Terry

[nhrifle]

Failing legal recourse, there's nothing wrong with an old fashioned whooping in a quiet place

[johnnybar]

Do not recover any money from the twerp. That is accepting compensation. Have him recover the firearms and pay back the buyers. If the buyers refuse, he must let them know that if he fails to return them, charges will be filed against him and they will lose them through police seizure of stolen goods without compensation. Then again, it may be best to gather current owner information, file charges and have police seize them before the current owners are alerted. Guns tend to dissapear for all kinds of reasons when there is notice of seizure...I sold it...Stolen out of my truck last week...Lost it out of the boat.....

PS. Do you have the SN's

[shooter93]

Been there done that Joe....I know how you feel.

[oldred]

Didn't happen to me but to an acquaintance but still very similar circumstances, unless you have serial numbers or other proof it's going to be your word against theirs as to ownership if the law there is the same as it is here in Tn. But whatever the case the first thing to do is talk to a good lawyer before doing ANYTHING! Lot's of well intentioned armchair lawyer advice could cause you a lot of grief if you don't get REAL legal advice first so don't take a chance of losing an otherwise winnable situation by making the wrong move first, there may be legal tricks you could use to trap the culprit even if he does have a loophole but only a law professional in your area can give you sound advice on this.

[lcclower]

Iinfer your father passed away, if that's the case there's a question of who HIS guns go to, and NO question about your guns. That's possibly a conversion (fancy term for stealing from an estate) and a theft and both are felonies state and federal. Charge 'em, I guarantee that's not the first they've carried off nor the last,

[Wayne Smith]

Joe, was any of this in writing? A will, or any other written and signed statement? If not it will be your word against theirs. No matter if you can identify the guns or not, legally if it's not in writing and the other party is no longer above the ground there is not much you can do.

Of course, he probably doesn't know this. Threaten as above, to call the police and report them as stolen if not recovered, and see what he does. I'll bet he doesn't go to a lawyer!

[Boerrancher]

I don't have any serial numbers. But you can bet that from now on I am going to photograph every gun and record the serial number, make several copies and keep them in different secure locations. I can't really fault my father's widow. She is old and not well educated and is still in a tail spin over dad's death. She is a good person overall and is easily taken advantage of. I don't want anything to come back on her, she is just trying to get through the mess that is dad's estate. Dad was a brilliant man, many considered him an engineering and mathematical genius, but failed to see the point of a will or trust, leaving an estate in the millions for the lawyers and the government to get most of. By law the guns were hers, and we were waiting for the court to release them to me to keep or sell for the estate. Her son was suppose to contact me when the court released them, he never did, just took some of the high dollar ones to a gun show. He took my mod 99 sav collection to the show but they were priced to high for the buyers. I told him on the phone when I finally got a hold of him that He had better get those guns back. Especially the flat top black hawk. That gun was my first hand gun and the companion to my 94c marlin. I packed that pistol on my hip for many many miles of fence row when I was a kid.

I will get the pistols back and my 300 ultra mag. I am pissed about the AR because that was to go to my daughter Cait. She does really well shooting them and it was the gun that her and grandpa shot all the time. She wanted that gun, and A2 National Match. I don't know what he got for it but he knows nothing about guns so I would bet it was way less than half of what it was worth. The 300 UM had a US Optics LR-17 scope on it and was a custom build on a sleeved Rem 700 action and a steel bedded synthetic target stock. I don't know what that gun was actually worth since dad and I built it, but I had nearly $6K in it. I got to quit, the more I think about it the madder I get.

On the bright side I did find Dad's 45-70 that he built on the Siamese Mauser with the birds eye maple stock and Lyman peep target sights. Dad's pet load for that rifle was a case full of Hercules 2400 level full with a 405 gr cast boolit compressing it all. I never had the guts to pull the trigger on that load but Dad liked it to Hunt with. He said anything he could see he could hit, and I never knew him to miss with that rifle, even at 5 and 6 hundred yards. He always joked that his 45-70 was as good as a 460 Weatherby mag. for velocity and range. I don't know if that is true, but I do know it is a beautifully crafted rifle and the loads he shot were ungodly high pressure. Dad in his prime was 6' 6" and weighed 300 lbs. When he was 55 he put up the gun because it separated 5 ribs from his spine. I told him to down load it and he said there was no point.

Any how thanks for the advice fellas,

best wishes,

Joe

[Boerrancher]

Iinfer your father passed away, if that's the case there's a question of who HIS guns go to, and NO question about your guns. That's possibly a conversion (fancy term for stealing from an estate) and a theft and both are felonies state and federal. Charge 'em, I guarantee that's not the first they've carried off nor the last,

I am his only living blood relative, besides my children. By Law they all should have been mine and I made that clear to the Atty. handling the estate that I wanted them. That is all I wanted was the guns and gun stuff. I didn't care about the various properties and money. Supposedly he gave all of the money to his mother who put it in the estate account. She told me he had given her money for the account but wasn't clear what it was far.

[Love Life]

US optics are not cheap. You can easily have half the 300's value in that scope alone. Holy moly I would be very mad!!!

[captaint]

I can't begin to tell you how angry I would feel about one of these deals. I gotta stop now. Mike

[starmac]

I am sure no lawyer, but a whole lot will depend on the will.

[x101airborne]

Joe,
My condolences on your situation. You already have good advice so I will just pray for you.
Take care and I pray the best for you and your family.

[Taylor]

report as stolen,and/or wring his neck!

[WILCO]

I am sure no lawyer, but a whole lot will depend on the will.

Yep. If it wasn't in the will, I don't know what recourse you would have, other than contesting it. I'm also not an Attorney Joe. Sorry to hear of this.

[imashooter2]

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "they're mine and he was holding them for me." If he had them, you transferred them to him.

A shame that such things happen with family. Good luck getting things back, but I believe that legally, you are screwed.

[Boerrancher]

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "they're mine and he was holding them for me." If he had them, you transferred them to him.

A shame that such things happen with family. Good luck getting things back, but I believe that legally, you are screwed.

The big issue being is that other than his wife and myself and children, he has no other heirs. I understand the fact that if he was keeping them for me I "transferred" them to him. That does not give the right of someone else to waltz in who is by law entitled to no part of my father's estate and transfer them to someone else. (in MO step children have no legal rights to an estate unless it is written in a will) There was no will, so state law prevails, or if there was no one can or is willing to produce it. I know many don't believe in Karmic pay back, but I have seen it too many times to not believe in it. I will stew about for a few months but I will either get my guns back or he will replace what he sold. Got to shut up now...

Best wishes,

Joe

[jcwit]

Keep us posted as to how this comes out, I wish the best of outcomes for you Joe.

[oldred]

The fact is that while everyone here has good intentions their (and mine) advice is nothing more than a lightly informed GUESS, a consultation with an attorney very well could bring a pleasant surprise! This is much too big to just shrug off or lose out on because of not finding out for sure what you really can or cannot do, you feel bad now but how will you feel after it's too late and you find out that you did indeed have legal recourse and lost out because you failed to pursue it?

[cajun shooter]

If you stated to the attorney of the estate that it was your property and that you wanted it returned then he was bound to see that done.
I would also go to the "RAT" that sold the guns and hold his feet while his eyes are looking at some far away concrete or rock and get some answers.
In Louisiana if a person buys a gun that they know is far below the worth of that gun, then they are guilty of possession of stolen items. In other words if the stolen gun was worth $800 and they purchased it for $400, the law states that they should have had a knowledge that the gun may be stolen. They have to return the gun with out being paid. They may take the seller to civil court but not you.
You have some recourse if you choose to use it.
As I stated earlier if that attorney was the named attorney of the estate and you and he had conversation about the stolen guns then he is liable to see that no property is removed or transferred until the estate has been settled. A written will is always the best way but it is not needed in a lot of states as they have laws that cover that. Go after it!!

[oldred]

cajun that is exactly what I am talking about, while that may seem like the thing to do trying to "strong arm" the culprit before pursing legal action could, and most likely would, totally ruin any chance of a legal remedy. The law may not be able to do a thing to help but it also just might be able to make that guy squeal a lot louder than twisting his arm! Talking to an attorney is the way to find out and doing so before doing anything else makes more sense because trying to go around the law could easily make matters much worse. I don't think any of us here are qualified to give legal advice and while we may be convinced that we THINK we know how it is and can give anecdotal examples the fact is we do NOT know and an attorney in that area could very well dispute any advice that any of us here might give.

[Reg]

Amateur advice is often cheap and even more often worth exactly what it costs.
You need to talk to a lawyer.

[oldred]

Amateur advice is often cheap and even more often worth exactly what it costs.
You need to talk to a lawyer.



And all too often just flat out wrong!

[bruce drake]

This is their mess, let them clean it up. They sold guns that were not theirs to sell. Let them call the people they sold them to, get them back, and give them back to you. If they refuse to do that, as stated, press charges for theft.

Bingo. He gets one chance to do what is right.

[oldred]

Confront him before filling charges and it's all but guaranteed the guns will disappear forever! If charges can be filled then that needs to be done before anyone has a chance to dispose of the guns, the first notice they should get is when the illegally sold firearms are confiscated as stolen merchandise!

[JesterGrin_1]

What was done was wrong. But I learned a long time ago that if you wish to keep something then it should remain in your possession.

But I do hope you get what is yours back.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Had a similar thing happen after my older brother died back in `03. His son was in Iraq in an armored Abrams unit. We got him home thru the Red Cross for his Dads final arrangements. Long story made short the kid knew about his Dads will concerning how he wanted things taken care of. We never saw the will till the whelp had taken anything of value that wasn`t nailed down and scooted back to Georgia. The will stipulated that the kid recieve no more than $1K total in cash and nothing else. When we went to court to try for recovery of family mementos and other things we were told by the lawyer we had we couldn`t get anything returned by the kid. Seems the kid hired a slimy attorney that made the simple statement about the kid taking everything his Dad had in this world, "His Father had said in confidence to the Son that he could have everything in the advent of his death"! Our attorney said that that simple statement would hold up in court so we should just abandon efforts of recovery. We got a small measure of satisfaction however, the kids wife divorced him a few months later and cleaned his clock, she sent things back up to us that were family heirlooms.Robert

[popper]

File against the attorney of the estate. He is totally responsible for any and all errors in distribution. Unfortunately, they all know each other and scratch their backs together at the local watering hole.

[KCSO]

They are not stolen as you can nott prove any intent to steal here, but yo do have a good civil case for damages and loss of property. Wiith the price of AR's right noow you are probably our of Small Claims Court and into County Court.

[Junior1942]

I have a text file named guns.txt. It's on this desktop computer, my laptop computer, and a copy is on my web site in a password protected directory. BUT the main thing about the guns.txt file is what it contains.

It contains every gun or scope I own, their serial numbers, their cost new, where or whom I bought it from and details such as twist rates, etc. However, it also contains detailed info on each gun such as this: JLD 2-11-09 in red ink inside the barrel channel; or JLD 1-23-89 in black ink on the stock beneath butt plate.

Imagine standing in the sheriff's office trying to reclaim a rifle they have recovered and which you claim as yours. They say, "Mr Doughty, can you prove this rifle is yours?"

Mr John L Doughty, me, then says, "I bought it from so-and-so on such-and-such day and paid X dollars for it with check #XXXX on LaSalle State Bank in Tullos, Louisiana. If you will kindly remove the barreled action from the stock, you will find "JLD 5-15-88" lightly engraved on the left side of the magazine box. That rifle is mine."

If you don't have a web site to which you can upload files, your Internet provider probably gives you a few megabytes for free.

[Norbrat]

If you don't have a web site to which you can upload files, your Internet provider probably gives you a few megabytes for free.

www.dropbox.com

2Gb for free, and any files which have been changed are automatically updated on each device you have linked to Dropbox.

[Awsar]

hope the best for ya . mad is the just the beginning of what i would be.

[41 mag fan]

I'd have the sheriff go give him a visit. My cousin just had this happen to her, her father died, 3 of her cousins from that side came in and took 12 guns total. Plus there was a will to!
Well 3 went to Ca, 3 to Fl, and 3 to MO.
I'm hoping she took my fathers advice and had the sheriff contact them.

[imashooter2]

The big issue being is that other than his wife and myself and children, he has no other heirs. I understand the fact that if he was keeping them for me I "transferred" them to him. That does not give the right of someone else to waltz in who is by law entitled to no part of my father's estate and transfer them to someone else. (in MO step children have no legal rights to an estate unless it is written in a will) There was no will, so state law prevails, or if there was no one can or is willing to produce it. I know many don't believe in Karmic pay back, but I have seen it too many times to not believe in it. I will stew about for a few months but I will either get my guns back or he will replace what he sold. Got to shut up now...

Best wishes,

Joe

Unless there is a will, I'm betting it goes down like this. The guns were in your father's possession so they were his. On his death they passed to his wife. His wife gave them to her son. Her son can do whatever he likes with the guns his mother gave him.

I'm sorry to hear about what has happened to you and I hope I'm wrong, but...

[10x]

Iinfer your father passed away, if that's the case there's a question of who HIS guns go to, and NO question about your guns. That's possibly a conversion (fancy term for stealing from an estate) and a theft and both are felonies state and federal. Charge 'em, I guarantee that's not the first they've carried off nor the last,

This is pretty much right on. Who is the executor of the estate? If your property was taken and sold by the executor, or any items that were due you according to the will or last wishes then the executor has a legal responsibility to return your property and turn over any residue of the estate including property due you according to your dads last wishes. If a person other than the executor of the estate is disposing of property then there is a serious legal issue. If an executor is disposing of property in a manner not in accordance with their instructions ( the will and any codicil, or appendixes) then there is a serious legal issue.
If your property has been disposed of, it could be interesting legal times for the person that sold it and the people now in possession.
(I base my opinion on the estate and probate laws in Canada, U.S. law in your state is very likely similar)

[OeldeWolf]

I have had similar problems.

Getting a lawyer is the #1 priority right now.

Everything else will depend on his answers

[Boerrancher]

Just thought I would let all of you know I was able to recover some of the guns that were at Dad's. I got both of my Mod 99F Savages back, along with my Flat top Ruger 357mag, and Dad's Mod 700 in 7mm Remington Ultra Mag. I know it is not my 300 UM with my US optics LR 17 scope but at least it is a start. Now I just need a set of dies and some brass for the 7mm UM. I have powder primers and bullets. I also got dad's M1 Garand back as well. It was the National Match rifle that He got from the DCMP, still new in it's original shipping box. I doubt that I get them all back, but I will get the important ones.

Best wishes,

Joe

[hithard]

Sorry to hear you lost your father, and some of the reminders of very fond memories.

[Olevern]

Glad to hear you recovered at least some of the firearms.

[Boerrancher]

Thanks fellas, I am not done yet. I am mad about the few that I will not get back like Dad's National Match AR15 A2. The idiot took it to a gun shop for appraisal and the shop owner told him it was worth only $600 at most because it had a PAC West Lower, and he didn't know what the upper was. Neither of them bothered to look at the stamping on the barrel that said colt and national match, so at a gun show he sold it for 600 bucks. Just like my 300 UM with the LR 17 Scope. The gun store owner said the scope and rifle combo was only worth $700 at most because of the el cheapo, off brand scope. That "el cheapo, off brand scope" was a US Optics that I paid nearly $3K for and was worth at least $2500 because it was mounted and to the range 2x same with the rifle.

That is what I hate about a lot of so called gun experts, they don't know anything about specialty guns and accessories. Hell how many times have folks here posted stories about gun shops selling the wrong ammo with a gun? The only time I go into a gun shop is to look for diamonds in the rough, and things that folks don't have a clue as to what they have, because it seems a majority of the people standing behind the counter are clueless.

I am just glad I got back what I have so far, and will take delivery on more of them as soon as he recovers more of them I am sure. I was right about the thread title, it has taken me a week to calm down enough to get a good nights sleep. Last night was the first time I have slept well since I found out what was going on. It also helped that wife and I went out to dinner for our birthdays a week late, but it is the one time a year that she and I can go out for a couple of hours just the two of us and leave the kids with the grandparents. Didn't go anywhere special, just a local greasy spoon in one of the near by towns, but as I said we only get one evening a year to ourselves and even if it is a cheap meal at a greasy spoon it is special for us.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Doc Highwall]

Joe, I am happy that some of this is starting to work out for you. I don't know how I would handle it but it would not be good.

P.S. Happy Birthday to you and the wife. I agree, "Good times do not have to cost a lot".