cap making dies

[Nobade]

I have been wondering about the feasibility of having a set of dies made that work like Patmarlin's checkmaker dies, only used to make percussion caps. Since the Forster tap-o-cap is no longer on the market, I would think such a setup would be attractive to a fair number of people. What say ye?

-Nobade

[johnnybar]

I have been wondering about the feasibility of having a set of dies made that work like Patmarlin's checkmaker dies, only used to make percussion caps. Since the Forster tap-o-cap is no longer on the market, I would think such a setup would be attractive to a fair number of people. What say ye?

-Nobade

Look for Tap-O-Cap cap makers. If your considering any dies that use cap gun caps to serve as the compound, you will be frustated very quickly with their reliability.

[Fly]

What do they use in caps to ignite, from the impact of the hammer?

Fly

[Marvin S]

What do they use in caps to ignite, from the impact of the hammer?
Fly
Yes toy caps where used in place of the factory primeing compound. They never really worked very well as the caps where pretty lame.

[Shooter]

Yes toy caps where used in place of the factory primeing compound. They never really worked very well as the caps where pretty lame.

I agree with Marvin.
I have one of the Tap-a-caps. It is a last-ditch resort.
I would rather (and do) have a flintlock.

[docone31]

Drawings anyone?
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=82768

[Marvin S]

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-586081.html
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15290
You may look over these two threads as they might help cap-lock shooters out.

[Boerrancher]

A buddy of mine worked on a system to use spent large rifle primers to draw down into percussion caps. He didn't get very far on it and had lathe troubles but he got far enough to prove that it would work. He was able t make a crude system to test the viability and was successful, then his late gave out before he could refine the tooling. There are several priming compounds that will work. The fulminates are the best, some are corrosive and some aren't. In a ML it doesn't matter, and many can be ordered from pyrotech suppliers on line.

Best wishes,

Joe

[mooman76]

I've been making some caps to try again and if nothing else I use a couple to dry out the chamber before I load. Anyway I was thinking of trying that compound that the sell that you paint on targets and you shoot it and it explodes. Maybe a drop in each cap. Might be worth a try.

[skullmount]

I have been wondering about the feasibility of having a set of dies made that work like Patmarlin's checkmaker dies, only used to make percussion caps. Since the Forster tap-o-cap is no longer on the market, I would think such a setup would be attractive to a fair number of people. What say ye?

-Nobade

Seems to me the limiting factor is what makes the "bang" Sounds good though as long as that is worked out.

[Nobade]

Seems to me the limiting factor is what makes the "bang" Sounds good though as long as that is worked out.

Priming mix isn't hard to make, and a tray to hold a hundred at a time would make it easy to load caps in large numbers. As long as pyro suppliers are still in business you can get the components to do this.

[newton]

Never heard of stuff you paint onto target, would like to know more about it.

I would be interested in making my own caps. I think it would be fairly easy. Corrosive is not that big a deal for having good caps on hand or the ability to have them. Flintlock would be the easiest, but I think priming compounds can be fine if handled correctly. I watched a video on how they make .22's, and they were not handling the compound with robotic arms and in confinement or anything.

Actually, it was quite the opposite. The pile of compound they were 'scraping' around was probably the size of a basketball. I'll post the link. But needless to say, if handled correctly it is not rocket science. It only becomes a rocket when you do not handle it correctly.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/video-have-you-ever-wondered-how-rimfire-ammunition-is-made/

[mooman76]

Never heard of stuff you paint onto target, would like to know more about it.

I would be interested in making my own caps. I think it would be fairly easy. Corrosive is not that big a deal for having good caps on hand or the ability to have them. Flintlock would be the easiest, but I think priming compounds can be fine if handled correctly. I watched a video on how they make .22's, and they were not handling the compound with robotic arms and in confinement or anything.

Actually, it was quite the opposite. The pile of compound they were 'scraping' around was probably the size of a basketball. I'll post the link. But needless to say, if handled correctly it is not rocket science. It only becomes a rocket when you do not handle it correctly.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/video-have-you-ever-wondered-how-rimfire-ammunition-is-made/


I haven't used it yet but was going to try it. Might as well try a few caps too. If you ever saw the show Top Shot, they had the targets on that show. The compound I saw looked like you mixed it like epoxy with 2 compounds and I assume you paint it on so once you mix it like epoxy, you have to use it all. They do have different size containers though.

[smoked turkey]

The tap-o-cap is a neat little device. It is only as effective as the quality of the caps used to make the bang as skullmount says. I have one and have used it some with my sidelocks. It is an interesting concept. I didn't find any paper caps locally that had enough power to ignite the black power to an acceptable level. My failure rate was entirely too high. I understand that USA made caps do an acceptable job. If someone can point us in the right direction as to either making the compound or a good source of powerful caps, then the idea of the tap-0-cap is a good one.

[Nobade]

There is a member here, goes by Perotter or Peroter - I don't remember which, who has done a lot of work with priming compounds. Check out some of his posts on the subject going back a couple of years. The Frankford Arsenal '42 mix looks like the easiest to obtain and work with. It got us through WWII, must be something to it.

-Nobade

[Keith Sacane]

I have the tap-o-cap, and I've only used the caps on revolvers, but they always worked. I never did try them on a sidelock gun, and I'm not sure they would have had enough oomph to set one off having to navigate the bend in the flash channel, but in the revolvers they worked fine. Having to fire several caps to clear the flash channels of a revolver uses up a lot of caps fast, so I was happy to find a cheap alternative for them. I'll try them out in the next couple of weeks on a sidelock or two and see how they work. Right now, I can't find any factory caps locally, so I'll be saving them for the sidelocks. I'd love to find a priming comound that could be relied upon to work in them.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

A great many years ago toy caps did in fact have enough primer to fire a percussion gun, in the late 40s and early 50s.

Doogooderism "for the children" slowly eroded the rights of kids to the point of little power or BP smell in their ammo with no more chances for eight year olds to perhaps burn a finger with a cap & hammer let off or a bit of experimenation. Now with somethimg like Swiss Null B black powder available playing with actual fired caps not too badly damaged would point the way as to using new caps made in a manner similar to the old tap-a-caps, powered by Null B ?

BvT

[Nobade]

Nul-B doesn't ignite if you hit it, it's just super fine black powder. You need a primary explosive. As far as I know, toy caps were made with Armstrong's mixture. That is some very dangerous stuff in quantities larger than a small spot like caps were. I wouldn't make up any amount of that. But other priming mixtures are viable and a bit safer to make. I do think it is funny that just when we really need the tap-o-cap they take it off the market. I wonder how much whining it would take to get them to start making them again?

-Nobade

[Keith Sacane]

Well, I tried out my homemade caps again today. They worked well in cap and ball revolvers, but not so well in the rifle. I assume it's because the flash has to travel farther in the rifle. I'll keep using them in the revolvers.

[trapper9260]

I have read your post here and I know it will work on this because I try what was try with the cap gun roll .Just usen that it just did not work well for me also ,What I did do is that I reload my own primers and It works for rifil and handgun and shotgun. and if it work for them I know it will omn caps for muzzle loader.I add some 4FG supper fine BP to it you will need to test to see how much to use and it works just fine.I use one cap and then the BP as a booster.To get the caps of the roll ones is what I use is from any department store and yes Walmart have it also in the toy Dept and get only the Germany one stay away from the China they are not that great.Also not fill the way the Germany ones are.I use a pair of sissors to cut the size i need .Just make sure you clean your gun after use.

[ofitg]

I have been wondering about the feasibility of having a set of dies made that work like Patmarlin's checkmaker dies, only used to make percussion caps. Since the Forster tap-o-cap is no longer on the market, I would think such a setup would be attractive to a fair number of people. What say ye?

-Nobade

Nobade, getting back to your original question, I think a number of people would be interested in the dies you propose..... including hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of shooters living outside the U.S.

The filler for the hulls is not a great hurdle. Some people make their own blackpowder, and believe it or not, some people mix their own primer compound for percussion caps.

[drhall762]

I think I'll try Hatcher's compound. The Cap maker looks like an interesting project for my machining students.

[drhall762]

I found the antimony sulfide, potassium chlorate and sulfur all from this source: http://pyrochemsource.ecrater.com/
Prices are pretty good as is shipping. We shall see how prompt they are as I ordered 1# of each.

[ofitg]

I think I'll try Hatcher's compound. The Cap maker looks like an interesting project for my machining students.

Drhall762, please keep us in the loop if your machining students work on this.

Mixing the primer compound is straightforward, just use small quantities and never grind/stir the ingredients. Perotter offers some good tips for mixing in this thread -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?182089-can-you-make-priming-compound

It was also mentioned that potassium chlorate can be made at home, using an electrolysis rig to convert potassium chloride (eg, water softener salt).... yes, it works..... for the time being, it is probably more convenient to get potassium chlorate from a pyro supplier.

[trapper9260]

I think in the past you can get cap making dies from Dixe gun works.Sorry if i spell worng because I got one usen soda cans to make them ,I do not remember for sure if that is where I got it from but can check . I did got a roller for my balls to cast for my .50cal to do ball and patch .you see a differnet in the way it shoots when you roll them I also do it with the 00 buck shot also.

[nekshot]

If the potency is too low for a rifle to fire could 22 casings be shortened and new plugs made to accept them, obviusly they could be lengthened for the right amount of compound? I like this thread, lets continue to become self reliant.

[drhall762]

Just my opinion, but if we can swage .22 cases to make jackets, why not primer cups. I am going to thry both good old aluminium soda cans and come very thin copper. See what happens.

On the chemicals, they shipped today. Gotta' say these folks are easier to deal with than Skylighter.

On mixing, I so agree very small quantities and NO pounding. LOL.

[Nobade]

Yep, you can make about 100 caps with 2 grains of mix so no need to make a lot of it!

-Nobade

[ofitg]

As best as I can measure it, I load 1/2 grain of the KClO3-based primer compound into each Tap-o-cap hull.

[ofitg]

Just my opinion, but if we can swage .22 cases to make jackets, why not primer cups. I am going to thry both good old aluminium soda cans and come very thin copper. See what happens.



A couple of years ago I was experimenting with alternatives to the Tap-o-cap and I came up with something rather unorthodox.
I bought a 1960s-vintage gizmo called the "Mattel Vac-U-Form". I vacuum-formed 0.02-inch-thick polyethylene (ie, milk jug plastic) over the points of 8-32 machine screws, and then I trimmed the little plastic cups to the proper length.
The plastic conformed to the screw threads so the little plastic caps were internally ribbed, and they fit perfectly on the nipples of my Uberti revolver. The plastic caps seemed totally serviceable, but fabricating them was very time-consuming.....

[drhall762]

Over here I posted some stuff on a ML made from a .30 caliber barrel. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190793-Small-Bore-Fast-Twist-Rifles. Has some info in it about using .22 RF casings for primers. See no reason they could not be used with priming compound and a machined nipple to fire any ML.

[ofitg]

Instead of making caps fit the nipples, we could make nipples fit the caps..... I applaud this "outside the box" thinking.

If .22 rimfire brass was not available, I wonder what else might be used (with custom-size nipples?).....

[drhall762]

Since it is the compound that is shock sensitive and the striking of the "cap" onto the nipple that causes the firing, the gates are pretty much open. Molded plastic could be an option. Virtually anything that will contain the compound and direct the flash even somewhat should work. If the plastic cap-gun caps will work the bar isn't too terribly high. Looks like this just became an experimenters dream.

[drhall762]

UPS just delivered the chemicals. Now to find some time to get busy.

[newton]

Please take pictures and good notes on your adventure. It would be a very cool thing to see how it goes for you and could help out a lot of us in our future endeavors.

[ofitg]

UPS just delivered the chemicals. Now to find some time to get busy.

Here's an idea I found useful for loading the wet-mix "sludge" into the empty Tap-o-cap hulls -

I built a simple tool for loading - I took a 8D framing nail, filed off the point, and lathed a "skinny section" in the center of the nail. Then I took a short length of 5/32" brass tube (from the hardware store) and crimped one end down around the "skinny section" in the nail. After the nail and brass tube were joined together, I carefully filed off the other end of the brass tube so that when the nail head is pulled away from the brass tube, it opens up a small chamber which is 0.10 inch deep. When the nail head is pushed toward the brass tube (like a tiny syringe), the material in that chamber will be expelled.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1182/tooltoc.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/tooltoc.gif/)


I use a small knife blade to pack the moist "primer sludge" into the chamber of the loading tool, then I expel the sludge into an empty percussion cap hull. Next I use the butt end of a 9/64" drill bit to hand-press the sludge down into the base of the hull. Be gentle, it only takes one or two pounds of force. Allow the cap to dry out overnight and it's ready to use.

[Nobade]

That is a pretty good idea. I would thoroughly clean it after use though, any dry dust that accumulated between the nail and the tube could be ignited the next time you used it.

What do you wet your primer mix with? Alcohol I would imagine? Or Acetone?

I like the ideas of using spent 22LR cases as caps. I haven't checked yet, but if they were derimmed using the available swage dies for making bullets out of them, and then trimmed to length, I wonder how close they are to fitting on a musket cap nipple? Something I need to look at.

-Nobade

[ofitg]

That is a pretty good idea. I would thoroughly clean it after use though, any dry dust that accumulated between the nail and the tube could be ignited the next time you used it.

What do you wet your primer mix with? Alcohol I would imagine? Or Acetone?



The primer mix I use includes 2% shellac as a binder, and I wet the mix with denatured alcohol. The mixtures dries out rapidly, so it's necessary to add a few more drops of alcohol periodically to maintain the desired "toothpaste" consistency.

Yes sir, I learned the hard way about cleaning that tool immediately after use.... it didn't go "bang" but I had a heck of a time trying to clean it after the shellac had hardened/dried out.

[drhall762]

Do you use standard yellow shellac from the pyro houses?

[ofitg]

My dry chemicals (excluding the shellac) add up to 33 grains per batch - then I add 0.3cc of "Bulls Eye" Clear Shellac (from the hardware store) - this stuff is advertised to be 21% shellac solids by volume -

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5039/shellac002r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/shellac002r.jpg/)

Then I add a few drops of denatured alcohol to achieve a "toothpaste" consistency.

I never tried the shellac from pyro suppliers, but I imagine it would work just fine.

[Nobade]

I hadn't thought about Shellac - good idea! You can get dry shellac flakes at woodworker supply houses if you like also.

-Nobade

[Nobade]

Yesterday I was comparing a fired 22LR case to the nipple on my '63 musket. It looks like it wouldn't take too big a leap to make those cases fit that nipple. Looks like I need to try my hand at making some dies to de-rim the cases and expand/taper them to fit. Does anybody have one of those die sets for making jackets out of 22LR cases? I am curious as to what the derimming die needs to look like.

-Nobade

[Fly]

No blade I'm a retired tool & die maker with a small shop.I just bought a paper cutter Sharps
rifle, but don't have it yet.I can not find musket caps, so I may by forced to make a die for
them.

I have all the componds in my fireworks chemicals to make the charge.I just need to figure
how much, with out over doing it.When the rifle comes in, give me some time to work with
it & I will pm you on what I come up with.

This Obama thing has effected even our black powder industry.But we are Americans & we
always figure ways to solve our problems.

Fly

[Nobade]

Great! I eagerly anticipate your findings.

My new TC Renegade flintlock came in today. I am pretty excited about that, I seem to be shooting more and more with flintlocks these days. With homemade powder and boolits I can keep them running without having to buy supplies.

-Nobade

[Fly]

Kinda fun being self relyent.Don't think Obama can buy up all the flint rock from us also.

Fly

[lksmith]

Could you not use the white parts of strike anywhere matches? I have seen videos and Field Manuals that detail how to reload primers (as a last resort), wouldn't the same process/mixture work for percussion caps

[ofitg]

Could you not use the white parts of strike anywhere matches? I have seen videos and Field Manuals that detail how to reload primers (as a last resort), wouldn't the same process/mixture work for percussion caps

I used to do it that way, but I cannot recommend it anymore. The strike-anywhere matches sold nowadays are different from 20 or 30 years ago - the igniter tips are not as powerful as they used to be.

[mooman76]

I was thinking of using caps like they call for but before inserting the cap, adding a tiny bit of BP. Less than a pinch to help increase the power of the cap.

[Mustangpalmer1911]

I was thinking of using caps like they call for but before inserting the cap, adding a tiny bit of BP. Less than a pinch to help increase the power of the cap.


I have tested this with just the plastic caps. I add just a TINY pinch of 4f to them and they make the revolver go bang every time. DIRTY so it would be a last resort solution but it worked great.

[mooman76]

I haven't tried it yet with a load. I compared the two by sound to see if they worked. They sound the same as regular bp caps but plastic got in the nipple. I figure under a load though the back pressure will force it back out but next time out I have several to try. I've been trying to figure out how to make them a little more powerful.

[Mustangpalmer1911]

Then plastic will still get stuck in the nipples sometimes. That was the biggest problem really.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Guys
NoBade you are on to something. Just two weeks ago I started working on a die set to derim fired 22lr cases .The die also reduces the dia greatly and renders the ID the right size to fit on a typical nipple. The die also cuts the case to just over 3/16" long. This is new to me and I have only gotten out one time to test.I used five toy cap dots in each cap. As these cups are deep ,five fit good. In use all fired the rifle charge of 64grns of P pyrodex.No misfires and NO hangfires for the 16 I had with me. These cups are Very stout and could be reused. More to come later with pictures.
n.h.schmidt

[Nobade]

Recently I tried something even more simple. Cut the fired 22LR cases off to the same length as a musket cap, then turn a nipple straight so it fits easily in the case. Load the cases with priming mix and a paper disc (1/4 inch - normal hole punch) and you're good to go. Works in my muskets and Gonic inline.

-Nobade

[Nobade]

Somebody recently told me that Pat Marlin is working on cap forming dies that work like his gas check makers. Any word on that?

-Nobade

[shadowcaster]

So what is the compound (details) being used in the homemade caps?

Shad

[Nobade]

Forum member Perotter has posted numerous priming mix formulae here in the past. Perhaps a search for his posts will lead you in the right direction.

-Nobade

[n.h.schmidt]

I know Pat did mention a cap making die.That was about two years ago. After using a tap o cap for years and now using the LR case,the LR case works better by far.
n.h.schmidt

[mooman76]

There was nothing really wrong with the caps the tapocap formed. Kind of good making them out of aluminum cans. The problem was lack of power from the toy caps so either a stronger compound or if the caps could be made longer to hold more toy caps then it should work like a champ. I could usually only get 2 paper caps in the aluminum caps. If I tried 3 the wasn't much room left to hold onto the nipple. That of coarse depends on the paper cap used.

[n.h.schmidt]

For Me there was a problem with the tap-o cap. The folds down the sides of the cup allow some of the power to escape. Also, when fired the top of the cap is vaporized allowing even more power to get away.
I modified a cheap paper punch to be hardly any bigger than the opening of the cups for punching out the dots. This results in a lot less paper going into the cap. I could get as many as five dots into a cap. this was too much though. Four was a better fit. The sized down and shortened LR cases have no folds and do not split or vaporize when fired. More of the caps power is going into the nipple. I am having a real problem with the fired cap sticking hard on the nipple. Reminds my of the brass caps made in Italy about 30 years ago. Powerful but stoutly made and they would stick hard too.You had to bring a pliers to get them off the nipple. I have a few of these LR case percussion caps to spare.If some of you out there would like to try them out,I could part with a few.
n.h.schmidt

[mooman76]

I know what you mean about the brass caps. I had some CVA caps about 30 years ago that I had to pry off the nipple with pliers or a pocket knife. I was trying to find a paper punch slightly smaller like you said. My caps sometimes go in crooked and take up to much space. I don't mind loosing a little power out the cap for now. I would use real caps for any real shooting needed but to just go plinking I could use the home made.

[Squeeze]

if your just looking for alternatives, heres a guy thats done a bunch of experimenting with electronic ignition http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments.html ( scroll to bottom of page )

[Kodiak-KingOfAlternatives]

To those who said they have a Tap O Cap, but would not recommend it, for whatever reasons.
Willing to sell it?

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Kodiak
I'm still using my auto-cap( press mounted tap-o cap). I'm willing to send you some already formed cap cups to experiment with. I have experimented with a moonman suggested method of loading the cups. To all you guys out there this works. Alittle fffg bp put into the cup first with a single toy pistol cap on top. I made a scoop for the bp out of a fired sm rifle primer soldered to a copper wire. This has proved to be about right. I made a percussion cap tester where I could see what comes out of the nipple when a cap is fired. The caps loaded as suggested have almost no bang to them.They do however,send a spray of red sparks a good ways from the nipple. This is working on my percussion rifles .I shoot mainly pyrodex too,sometimes bp as well. The spray of sparks must be acting like sparks from a flintlock falling onto the powder in the pan. Only it is contained and is faster.
n.h.schmidt

[mooman76]

Some have reported that they have had problems when pushing the cap on the nipple or inserting the cap into the cup, the cap going off. I am at a loss on this because I have done a few thousand caps and never had on go off this way. I have yet to try my idea of caps with a small amount of BP in them. I did load some but they didn't sound very loud so I assumed they wouldn't work well but in light of what N H Schmidt stated, I think I need to revisit this. I did also get a smaller punch so it makes it easier to get more caps in for more power.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have tried up to five toy pistol caps in the cup.No bp at all. They give a loud bang but when viewed from the tester. Almost no blast made it through the nipple. There is just too much paper trieng to go through the nipple. I am also experimenting with adding magnesium fileings from a camp firestarter. A small amt added to the bp make the spark spray bright with white hot sparks. No actual shooting tests yet,winter got in the way. I am now making the cups with two layers of pop cans. The tap o cap works harder but is ok and the cups are much stronger .
n.h.schmidt

[dtknowles]

I bought so me "ring-o-caps" at Walmart last week and reading this thread got me to go test them in small pistol primers. Smashing the cap on the concrete made a nice bang. Removing the little paper disk with the compound and smashing it on the floor again made a nice bang. Loading the little paper disk in a reformed small pistol primer with anvil, and loading in pistol case made very little noise when fired in pistol. Same thing with small powder charge and paper wad just pushed the paper wad and powder a ways down the barrel. Same thing but with a couple flakes of powder on primer before seating and a round ball seated deep to hold the powder against the flashhole fired the powder and ball. Seem like a bit of a hang fire, very slight double sound, pa pow. Powder did not burn completely but ball penetrated the target and some of the newspaper in the backstop. Ring-o-caps will go on the shelf for more development later if needed or if boredom sets in.

Tim

[Kodiak-KingOfAlternatives]

Hi Kodiak
I'm willing to send you some already formed cap cups to experiment with.
I would be most gracious. I have an entire book of compounds I would like to try.

[camotes2]

Hello; Just catching up on my reading, a shame to get so far behind. And also finishing up a .58 1/2 stock Hawken, had the parts laying around for years. But anyway being percussion, i see the discussion of how to make caps, and you had mentioned shortened rimfire brass. Wow, did that bring back memories, back in the 70's I made a different nipple, and I used .22 short brass the nipple was flat on top, and I sit the top of a strike anywhere match on the nipple, and slide the case down over top. Worked ok, but as it was way back then with limited skills and few tools my flask hole was way too big, and the shot would cock the hammer, and the case would go up thru where my hair used to be. Not so safe?
But has anyone tried a paste made from tannerite as a priming mixture? That was the actual question.
camotes2..

[Eddie2002]

Since I haven't had any luck finding #11 caps lately I have turned a new nipple that takes berdan primers instead of caps. I have a brick of them from Graff's which I bought a few years ago.

[drhall762]

Just saw a Forster Tap-O-Cap sell at auction for $178.50. I don't need one that badly.

[rupe01]

Just saw a Forster Tap-O-Cap sell at auction for $178.50. I don't need one that badly.

I agree! Especially as one of these must be fairly easy to make with a small ram and a former............? Also, you know, there is a FreeChex tool available in .22 size that might be usable.....??

[Texantothecore]

I have heard of some who slice the charge off the roll cap using a razor blade and then using that as the charge in the primer. It seems to work and you don't get the paper jamming the nipple.

I wonder what a cap would look like that was designed to be used many times. Would it be any different?

Would brass or copper shimming material work any better or would it be easier to form?

[Texantothecore]

Has any one considered making caps from tin? Would it work?

Could you pour them using existing equipment?

[mooman76]

Tin may be too soft, I don't know for sure but it is expensive and not readily available.

[n.h.schmidt]

Kodiak
PM me for details.I have some cups ready to go.

[Texantothecore]

Would a pinch of sulfur provide enough spark? It burns at 51l f and could be an answer.

[mooman76]

I came up with an idea of adding a tiny pinch of BP before adding the cap. I never got around to actually trying them partly because I dry fired some and they didn't sound any stronger. Someone else here took the idea further and tested some and even though they didn't sound stronger, they produced a better flame. He actually test fired some and got pretty good success with them.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi
Moonman76 That was me. The bp in the cap cup has worked better for me than any other combination tried so far. A scoop made from a small rifle primer soldered to a copper wire is about the right amt. I have only used fff and a single cap dot on top of that. The Cap dots I'm using are the german ones. A spray of Rave hairspray over the cap helps keep it all in the cup and provides at least some moisture protection. In testing in my bench cap tester ,these percussion caps had almost no blast. Very unimpressive but, and a big but at that. The caps had a spray of orange sparks.Every time. This spray is what is working. This isn't just armchair talk. I have shot these out of several of my sidelocks. Very good results ,the best I have ever had .I used BP and pyrodex and caps worked with both well. No hangfires. I will be shooting local matches with these starting in April. This discovery, though not my own has made the Tap O Cap concept actually work. Now more than ever something is needed to replace the Tap O Cap .
Some of you know I make and sell PB gas checks.I make my own dies for this. I'm considering making dies for sale to make percussion cap cups. Now that the Tap O Cap is no more ,something should be done.
n.h.schmidt

[mooman76]

Good idea on the primer cup for a measure. I've been trying to figure out what to use that would deliver a small amount of powder and be consistent. I used a small flat stick. It worked but wasn't consistent. I think I'll try again after I make a new scoop.

[Ammastor]

any luck on adding a few granuals of BP to a toy cap for a little extra? Can't find caps anywhere. have hundreds of toy caps but they will not set off my Pietta 1858.

Figured maybe adding a few granuals of BP to the cap might give them a little more of a kick. Not saying to fill the cap as they could because an issue but just a tiny bit for a little extra kick to the cap.

[Texantothecore]

any luck on adding a few granuals of BP to a toy cap for a little extra? Can't find caps anywhere. have hundreds of toy caps but they will not set off my Pietta 1858.
O
Figured maybe adding a few granuals of BP to the cap might give them a little more of a kick. Not saying to fill the cap as they could because an issue but just a tiny bit for a little extra kick to the cap.

Try "Legends of the Wild West" brand caps. They are the German caps and they work quite well. They are not very loud but if you add a bit of bp underneath the cap for spark propagation you will have very consistent ignition. Walmart sells them.

I have been doing some testing with this technique between rainstorms and I am getting better results than with commercial caps.

[wicket]

Taking a break from experimenting with percussion formulas to fabricate the actual caps, which frankly seems to be the more difficult task. So far i have a die made for punching out clover-leaf shaped blanks (maltese crosses were too laborious), next comes a second less complicated die to press the blanks into cups, i'm going for something like a #10 Remington. I rolled out some 5 mil copper to experiment with, but will certainly buy some if the dies work.

[aspangler]

I built one of the Tap-O-Caps and it works pretty well with a little BP under a cap. The dies are not too hard to make. If you need help just shoot me a pm. BTW Widners hve CCI caps for sale. I bought a 1000 just the other day.

[wicket]

I tried priming the nipple with fine powder and also topping the cap mixture with a disk of nitrocellulose paper, no luck with either. The ring caps i tried were of Italian manufacture and contained mostly grit, so that may have been the problem in getting them to work even with the charge quantity doubled.
My first notion was to copy the Tap-A-Cap, but it appears to produce pleated caps which i thought might contribute to chain firing, so i decided to try the cross-shaped blanks employed by manufacturers in the old days, figuring that they had already done testing and found that pattern acceptable.
Bass Pro in my area generally has caps, though mostly Remington # 11's, making caps just struck me as an interesting challenge that fit in with casting bullets, punching wads, and milling powder as
part of shooting percussion revolvers. It does bother me a bit that the simple act of buying ammunition has turned into a shopping and hoarding experience; a windfall for the merchants and manufacturers, not so good for shooters though, funny how that worked out.

[ofitg]

Wicket, a simple homemade cap-forming die was described in this thread -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?231553-Forster-is-getting-calls-concerning-their-Tap-a-cap-cap-maker/page2

It's not as fast/convenient as the Tap-O-Cap, but if you're looking for a means to be self-sufficient, it could be a solution.

[wicket]

That's very ingenious Oftig, hadn't seen that thread, thanks for steering me to it. I made a die that punches out crosses; fairly simple to make. I drilled four holes spaced around a center hole through a piece of 1/2" steel, then connected them by filing. The plunger was tricky since it had to be a tight fit though it was basically just a cylinder of steel the same diameter as the cross, with four triangles notched around its circumference to bite out the metal between the arms of the cross. The finished die block was split on its horizontal axis, shimmed, and screwed together so strips of stock could be fed through it, next time i'll just use two pieces of thinner steel, which would be easier. The cup forming die was very simple; a hole through another piece of 1/2 "steel based on the inside diameter of the cap plus twice the thickness of the stock being formed, the die was counter-bored slightly to the diameter of the cross to center the blank before forming. The plunger is just a piece of steel rod with the end slightly rounded. Took a bit of polishing to keep the cup die from ripping petals off the caps, but now it punches caps that fit my Pietta's perfectly and are formed like Remington caps with a scalloped lip and four petals. I press the blanks and caps out using a cheapie arbor press from Harbor Freight. Haven't tried feeding aluminum from a can through it, will go try that now, might save me buying 5 mil annealed copper online.

[ofitg]

Wicket, for what it's worth, the soft sheet aluminum from disposable pie pans has worked better for me than "beverage can" aluminum (somewhat stiff).

Your "clover leaf" punch sounds like it would come in handy with Raa-7's homemade die.

[wicket]

Ofitg, like you i wasn't impressed with how the aluminum from a soda can functioned, the copper petals tend to weld shut when the cap is pressed, the aluminum being springy didn't seal as well, not sure how it would stand up to the primer charge either, might be too brittle. I can see how pie pan aluminum would be better, it's thinner and would overlap better, and the pressure of forming probably tends to weld it together. I checked a Remington cap today with my vernier caliper, they appear to be closer to 7 or 8 mil, which i think would probably form better than 5 mil, will roll out some copper to seven mil tonight and give it a try.

[nhrifle]

Not sure if this has been thought of before, but I did have an idea today. How about a nipple that was bored out to accept the .22 blanks used to fire nail guns? Think this would work and be safe?

[wicket]

There's probably some way to do it, might be tough to extract the shells though. If you planned everything carefully you might be able to get the shell to eject from blowback, and also cock the hammer; turning a percussion revolver into a semi-automatic, sorta like the Webley-Fosberry. Could maybe even bump fire it.

[nhrifle]

That's something I hadn't thought of. Not sure I would want that spent shell ejecting near my eye!

[Texantothecore]

22 blanks as percussion caps:

A number of people have tried that and the results have not been useful because there is too much explosion and not enough give in the blank case. In a pistol it will move the
hammer back to full or half cock and the case may fly off the nipple and hit you in the head, right above the eye with some force. This has been happening very consistently. Go with the small amount of bp plus a single cap and it will work just fine.

[n.h.schmidt]

I like this thinking of how to make this work.I have been a endorser of the BP toped by a single cap method. Overall good results. I still want even better. I have begun trying two dot in the cap. One dot on the bottom ,BP then one dot on top. Promising results on the tester. A little more power is evident and still has the spark spray. I will shoot some soon. To all you who have used a real priming mix in a percussion cap. How do you get the mix into the cup? I mean you can't simply fill it up and you don't really want any on the sides either. This problem has stopped me from going this route.
n.h.schmidt

[ofitg]

N.H.Schmidt, I use denatured alcohol to wet the dry primer ingredients - the wet mix has a consistency similar to toothpaste.

I built a simple tool for loading - I took a 8D framing nail, filed off the point, and lathed a "skinny section" in the center of the nail. Then I took a short length of 5/32" brass tube (from the hardware store) and crimped one end down around the "skinny section" in the nail. After the nail and brass tube were joined together, I carefully filed off the other end of the brass tube so that when the nail head is pulled away from the brass tube, it opens up a small chamber which is 0.10 inch deep. When the nail head is pushed toward the brass tube (like a tiny syringe), the material in that chamber will be expelled.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1182/tooltoc.gif

I use a small knife blade to pack the moist "primer sludge" into the chamber of the loading tool, then I expel the sludge into an empty percussion cap hull. Next I use the butt end of a 9/64" drill bit to hand-press the sludge down into the base of the hull. Be gentle, it only takes one or two pounds of force. Allow the cap to dry out overnight and it's ready to use.

[n.h.schmidt]

Thank you that looks fairly easy to do. There are so many formulas to try. I would like to e-mail you or pm to get your opinion on a simple one to try out. I am very respectfull of primer power. Been on the bad end of that a few times. What have you been using for the cups? Tap-o Cap or something else?I have been using a copy of the Auto-cap(Tap-o cap for a reloading press). I have found that a double layer of pop cans makes for a stout cup and isn't much harder to punch out than a single layer.
n.h.schmidt

[ofitg]

Yes, I have a Tap-O-Cap, but I still like to "fiddle around" with other improvised methods to form the hulls.

Perotter is probably the guy you should ask about a particular primer composition.... he has done some extensive experimenting with different formulas.

The primer mix I use came from this book (page 456) -

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of_powder_and_explosives.pdf

Potassium Chlorate, Antimony Sulfide, Sulfur, ground glass (I use fine sand) and shellac. Noting what Davis says about using an antacid, I also incorporate a couple percent of Sodium Bicarbonate.
One of my reasons for choosing this formula was the availability of ingredients.

Naturally, it goes without saying, it's wise to work with small quantities. VERY small quantities.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I like this thinking of how to make this work.I have been a endorser of the BP toped by a single cap method. Overall good results. I still want even better. I have begun trying two dot in the cap. One dot on the bottom ,BP then one dot on top. Promising results on the tester. A little more power is evident and still has the spark spray. I will shoot some soon. To all you who have used a real priming mix in a percussion cap. How do you get the mix into the cup? I mean you can't simply fill it up and you don't really want any on the sides either. This problem has stopped me from going this route.
n.h.schmidt

As I mentioned early on in this exploration, the powder to use is SWISS Null B, a very fine priming powder now used for flintlock rifles. This powder is easily ignited by spark from the hammer & frizzen, and is proven to be the fastest kind of priming powder for flintlock ignition and with a greater confined pressure.......thus it is very likely to ignite very quickly and with a higher pressure in a home made cap when using a paper cap as the primary ignition in the home made aluminum or brass cap cups. In the alternative a small mortar and pestle may be used to grind REAL BP to dust fineness, which is almost as quick and easy to ignite as the Null B, and with the same attributes. Someone has already mentioned a miniature dipper for the home made cap charge process. Thus a one cap ignition as primary would lead to greater power from the secondary ignition.

The search, work , and development shown here is nearing success.

BvT

[n.h.schmidt]

Thank you ofitg and Baron. I don't have any of the things needed to make a priming mix,yet. BP I do have and can grind it to dust. I would try null-b if I had some .Buying a pound for a experiment is more than I want to do.At least right now.
Thanks
n.h.schmidt

[Texantothecore]

As I mentioned early on in this exploration, the powder to use is SWISS Null B, a very fine priming powder now used for flintlock rifles. This powder is easily ignited by spark from the hammer & frizzen, and is proven to be the fastest kind of priming powder for flintlock ignition and with a greater confined pressure.......thus it is very likely to ignite very quickly and with a higher pressure in a home made cap when using a paper cap as the primary ignition in the home made aluminum or brass cap cups. In the alternative a small mortar and pestle may be used to grind REAL BP to dust fineness, which is almost as quick and easy to ignite as the Null B, and with the same attributes. Someone has already mentioned a miniature dipper for the home made cap charge process. Thus a one cap ignition as primary would lead to greater power from the secondary ignition.

The search, work , and development shown here is nearing success.

BvT

Do you have any feel for the screen sizes for Swiss Null B? It sounds like fines, a very small screen size.

[wicket]

Speaking of available ingredients, i went with chlorate, sulfur and grit, works fine pressed into a copper cap, it even fires combustible cartridges, which surprised me, i didn't think it had that much zip. It's not the recipe i want to stick with since it's pretty dirty, but i wanted something to test the caps with, so went with what i had and was pleasantly surprised.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

You would have to inquire with the Swiss powder people on fineness of their powders. The "crushdown powder" I make with a small mortar and pestle is finer than ffffg. I use Goex. McMaster Carr has bronze screens you can put in an embroidery hoop to sift with, once you find out grain size data. But practically for this discussion a dust black powder under a cap in a foil new made cap shell will work with dust powder, and avoid stacking those toy caps to get the ignition power needed. Before I got my M & P I used am empty round shoe polish can and a 1" wooden dowel piece to crush powder, Gently. A little tedious, but workable.

BvT

[ofitg]

Speaking of available ingredients, i went with chlorate, sulfur and grit, works fine pressed into a copper cap, it even fires combustible cartridges, which surprised me, i didn't think it had that much zip. It's not the recipe i want to stick with since it's pretty dirty, but i wanted something to test the caps with, so went with what i had and was pleasantly surprised.

That's pretty cool!

[wicket]

Have moved up to chlorate, sulfur, and grit with added tin sulfide as a substitute for antimony sulfide. Banging the mixture on a steel plate with a hammer doesn't set it off, neither does grinding it on the plate with the face of the hammer. The formula detonates reliably with about the same bang as a commercial cap, the petals are opening on the caps and the notch on the hammer face is leaving the usual mark, but so far none of the caps has come apart.

[dondiego]

wicket - Can you supply the chemical ratios of the cap mixture please?

[ofitg]

Wicket, did you make the tin sulfide? If so, how did you do it? Thanks!

[wicket]

50.4 % potassium chlorate
26.31 % tin sulfide
8.76 % sulfur
12.39 % ground glass

[wicket]

I purchased a roll of pure tin solder from the hardware store, melted it into an ingot, and broke it down into granular tin using a rasp. I prepared a crucible with lid from thin-walled steel pipe, and placed a mixture of 40% sulfur and 60% tin by weight in the crucible, set the lid on the crucible (the lid should fit well, but not so tightly that gasses cannot exit the crucible) and heated the pipe with a propane torch until i got a sustained reaction between the sulfur and tin. Do this outdoors or under a fume hood since plentiful sulfur dioxide is produced. Expect some sulfur to burn around the edge of the crucible lid. After the crucible cools, it should contain a frothy looking black glassy substance in the bottom of the crucible. The walls of the crucible may be coated with sublimed sulfur, scrape it off and discard. Grind the point off a flat "Speedbore" type wood bit, and use it chucked into a drill to break up the tin sulfide. Don't try to make the bit fit the inside diameter of the crucible, you want it loose so it can rattle around a bit. I screened my tin sulfide through a 60 mesh sieve obtained from a place that sold pottery making supplies; crushing the pieces that weren't pulverized by the drill bit in a mortar and pestle.

[dondiego]

I have some antimony sulfide on hand. Would that be used in the same ratio as tin sulfide?

[wicket]

Same ratio, tin sulfide was substituted for the antimony sulfide originally used in the formula. Since you have antimony sulfide on hand it is probably safer to use it than to experiment with tin sulfide, nobody seems to know much about tin sulfide in primer compositions.

[wicket]

See whether this comes out as a picture of my cap dies and press setup.


103430

[ofitg]

That's very ingenious! So you feed a copper strip into the machine, operate the lever, and a finished cap falls out?

If you ever want to sell copies of the machine, I'll bet you could find a number of buyers.

[wicket]

I imagine somebody with a bit of experience at tool and die making could come up with something a bit less clunky. I'm just happy to have caps that fit my revolvers, was sick of driving all over the place to find caps, and having to settle for #11's when i did find any. It's kinda fun pulling the lever and having a cap drop out, reminds me of a slot machine.

[swathdiver]

Wonder if that could be made into a "die" and used on reloading presses?

Replicate the Remington #10 but slightly less prone to come apart to keep Colts running and the cap and ball sixgun crowd would be swimming in gravy!

[wicket]

I think you're on the right track Swath. All i had to work with was a drill press, but with a lathe, a reasonably skilled machinist (i'm just a carpenter) could turn the sections of the die as cylinders, which opens up a lot of possibilities. I don't reload cartridges, so don't have a reloading press, at forty bucks a cheap arbor press from Harbor Freight seemed a workable alternative. I haven't blown the petals off any caps yet or had a jam, and i've fired hundreds at all sorts of charge weights during testing. In A Practical Treatise On The Fabrication Of Matches, Gun Cotton, Colored Fires And Fulminating Powders H. Dussance mentions that back in the day ten ounce copper was used to make caps, that's around 13 mil, modern caps appear to be formed from 5 mil, and i compromise with ten mil copper.

[swathdiver]

Hey Wicket, you've done a great job with this. I don't reload either, was thinking of the Lee single stage press which is about $30, it can be used for other things like sizing conicals and lubing them, testing lead, etc. Sounds like you've already determined the sweet spot with regards to cap material thickness too!

Two dies could be offered, one mimicking the Remington #10 and the other the CCI #11 which generally corresponds to Pietta revolvers for the former and Uberti and Treso for the latter, well, someone more knowledgeable than I could determine that but that's the idea. And let's not forget those old #12s, #9s and long #11s for rifles and smoothbores.

Have you reported on their fit and performance in this thread or somewhere else?

[wicket]

Swath, i haven't said too much about fit and performance. The plunger that forms the finished cap for a factory Pietta cone is .150", filed down from some scrap spring steel i salvaged from a discarded mattress. The cap fit is excellent, better even than a Remington # 10, because i use softer copper and a longer cap and don't have to hammer set the caps or use a push stick. I'll take some pictures of fired caps, and some detail shots of the dies and post them here. I can't stress enough that making the dies was not rocket science, the toughest part was coming up with a way to press the clover leaf cutter first, then the cup die, and then extract the whole plunger unit so that the copper strip could be advanced for the next cap. To switch from a Remington # 10 to a CCI # 11 would probably only require a double-ended cup plunger and a separate female die bored for # 11.

[wicket]

The die parts plus some new caps and fired caps. The steel thing with all the holes in it is a cap filling tray to control charge weight and speed up charging the caps.103556

[Mustangpalmer1911]

That is sweet wicket. Any interest in making and selling them?

[wicket]

Hadn't really considered manufacturing and selling cap dies Mustang. My interest in making the rig was to finally cut the last link between me and the merchants and nanny-staters who keep intruding themselves into my recreational shooting. What i was going for was something a shooter could make for himself out in the garage with some hand tools and an electric drill; sort of like posting about making homemade powder.

[Rojelio]

wicket, I'm confused about how your tool operates. Does the center rod in your punch slide up and down?

[wicket]

Correct, Rojelio. The punch that forms the cross-shaped blank is made up of four pieces of steel rod held together tightly in a bundle by a steel cylinder at the top. The small channel remaining where the four rods touch has been bored out to accept the plunger rod that actually forms the cap. A bail mounted on the arbor press swings down to press the cross blank punching die, and then swings up again to allow the press itself to push the cap forming punch down through the center of the cross punch, pressing the cross-shaped blank to form it into a cup. Then the bail is swung down again to catch the cylinder which holds the four rods of the cross punch together, allowing the whole plunger assembly to be lifted free of the die assembly to allow advancing the copper strip in preparation to form the next cap. I used the cross forming punch to make the die with which it operates. A single hole the diameter of one of the punch rods was drilled straight through the two steel blanks that form the die that cuts the cross shaped blanks. A single rod from the cross punch bundle was pushed down through the hole drilled in the steel blanks, and a second rod was removed from the bundle, with the space remaining used to guide a drill bit to bore a second hole. The bit was removed, the rod was replaced, and another rod removed to allow a third hole to be bored, followed by a fourth. All four rods were set into their respective holes, and then the hole for the cap forming plunger was bored down through the bundle of rods and steel blanks to form the die that cuts the crosses, and on through the 1/2 inch steel blank to begin making the die that forms the actual percussion caps.

[Rojelio]

Wow! that took some thinking. I went a simpler route and just copied a tap o cap. It works ok with .005" material. Anything thicker and it punches through. I'm not happy with the aluminum. I need to get some copper foil and try that. I like the way your caps are formed better than mine. And I need to use thicker material.

Here's my cap making tools.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/IMAG0405_zps0f5d090b.jpg

[wicket]

I liked the idea of aluminum from cans, but the caps i formed with my dies were just too brittle, the aluminum is quite hard and i don't know how to anneal it. I make my copper from scrap roofing copper using a small jeweler's rolling mill i traded for years ago, but you can buy copper online. I use heavier copper, 10 mil, and let the die thin it out a bit as the cap is formed. My die took some fine tuning to get the caps just right. The trick i worked out was to take a prick punch, and punch evenly around the edge of the bottom hole of the cap die. It makes the die tighter by small increments, which stretches the copper more. I found that the cap die had to be well polished, and funnel-shaped, even soft copper will punch out if the copper changes shape too suddenly or drags too much as it passes through the die. I'm pretty sure your die would work fine with copper if the plunger was a bit tighter so that it compressed the pleats a bit, using thicker copper might accomplish that.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Guys
Rojelio
I like your cap loader it has some likeness to what I made.Form follows function. You should be able to use two layers of pop cans in your Home-made Tap O Cap. I have a Forrester made one and a home-made one .Both will work with two layers. Maybe your die push through dia. is too small My Forrester is .206. The home-made one is .203 and highly polished. The 2ply cups work very well for me. They don't have the problems of the single layer cups.They don't blow apart. I know copper would work but I'm not going to stand the cost. I can make 45 2ply cups for 10cents. Free if I just pick the cans up.
wicket You can easily soften the cans up in a toster oven. A hour at 400 will do. They will smoke and stink though.
For myself I use the cans as is. The cans being painted on the outside and coated in the inside don't have to be lubed.I do like to lube the side that becomes the outside of the cup. A coat of Jhonson's paste wax is cheap and easy to apply and will make the forming easier. Could stop the punch through problem.
n.h.schmidt

[wicket]

Good to know about the aluminum n.h.schmidt, i tried a torch and didn't accomplish anything useful. Probably wouldn't have gone with aluminum anyway, it galls too easy, and i just prefer working with copper. It's funny, but buying sheet copper to make caps costs about 2-3 cents per cap, but if you roll out a copper penny you can make about nine caps from it if you work carefully. Not worth the trouble of doing it though, penny alloy requires constant annealing. What are you guys filling your caps with?

[Rojelio]

n.h.schmidt,
funny you should mention about opening up the die a little. I did that today. I went up one number drill size to .204 and polished it real well and now it will take a double layer of soda can and the caps are real strong. Before, with the single layer caps, you could crush them between your fingers. Not the double layer.
Also, my cap loader resembles yours because I got the idea from you when you posted a picture over on the tap o cap thread. Thank you!!! It sure beats fumbling around and spilling priming compound everywhere.
I also like your cap tester. It's pretty ingenious. My priming compound seem to be working fine. A little dirty, but, reliable. I'm using the potassium chlorate, sulfur, antimony sulfide mixed dry. I only mix enough to load about 35 caps at a time. I just need to figure out a better way to glue it in there. Maybe a tiny drop of super glue or something. More experimenting.......

[Texantothecore]

Can aluminum is quite hard as it has other metals in it to increase the stiffness of the alloy.

[wicket]

Maybe that's why i had trouble annealing it. 10 mil aluminum flashing might have worked better, and it's about as common and cheap as can metal. Not my problem anyway, i'm not looking to switch from copper.

[n.h.schmidt]

It was asked what I'm filling my cups with. I still use the toy pistol caps. The German ones seen to be the only one's I can get now. They are ok if used with a small scoop of BP in the cup. I now punch out one cap dot to put in first.Then the scoop of BP. One more cap dot on top of that. For the first cap dot I use a 1/8" paper punch you can easily get a craft shops or scrapbooking places. A lot less paper with that. When all is assembled the cups are placed in a large pistol primer shipping tray. I then spray them all with a heavy coat of hair spray(Rave).
Rojelio
Maybe the hair spray could hold your mixture in for you.
n.h.schmidt

[wicket]

The caps i tried came from Italy and seemed to be mostly grit, even priming the nipples with 4f didn't help, haven't found the German caps that folks seem to have better luck with. I press my charges dry with a disk of flash paper covering them, it holds things together and vanishes completely when the cap fires.

[n.h.schmidt]

Wallmart has the german caps.You have to read the fine print to know where they come from. Also the Dollar General has the same caps under a different name. I tried priming the nipple and gave it a go for a while. Sometimes it seemed to really work. You sure couldn't count on it though. These german caps aer not all that great.It's about all I can get.Where do you get yours?

[wicket]

I don't use toy caps n.h.schmidt, just experimented with them, i seem to recall getting them at Walmart though, a couple years ago. I use about the same mix as Rojelio mentions above, but with tin sulfide in place of the antimony compound.

[Ajax]

I wonder if a nipple primer with 4f would help?


Andy

[ofitg]

I just need to figure out a better way to glue it in there. Maybe a tiny drop of super glue or something. More experimenting.......

Rojelio, the KClO3-based primer mix used by the U.S. Army during the Spanish-American War incorporated 2% shellac as a binder. I would suggest a wet (alcohol) mix with shellac - after the alcohol dries, the primer compound will be a solid clump "glued" into the bottom of the percussion cap hull.

[Rojelio]

ofitg,
Thanks for the advice. I realize that that would be the proper way to do it. My only problem would be that I would have to devise another way to load the caps. If there is an easy way to measure out the wet charge and install it into the cup, I'd sure like to hear about it. I have tried the hairspray and it works ok I just don't think it would stand a lot of rough treatment before it fell out.

Here's a short video of one of my cap tests. It's actually louder in person than it sounds on the video.
woops, video didn't work, sorry

[ofitg]

Here's something I came up with -

I add a few drops of denatured alcohol to the mix and stir it with a toothpick, until it reaches a "thick sludge" consistency (similar to toothpaste). Now it's ready for loading into the empty percussion cap hulls.

I built a simple tool for loading - I took a 8D framing nail, filed off the point, and lathed a "skinny section" in the center of the nail. Then I took a short length of 5/32" brass tube (from the hardware store) and crimped one end down around the "skinny section" in the nail. After the nail and brass tube were joined together, I carefully filed off the other end of the brass tube so that when the nail head is pulled away from the brass tube, it opens up a small chamber which is 0.10 inch deep. When the nail head is pushed toward the brass tube (like a tiny syringe), the material in that chamber will be expelled.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1182/tooltoc.gif

I use a small knife blade to pack the moist "primer sludge" into the chamber of the loading tool, then I expel the sludge into an empty percussion cap hull. Next I use the butt end of a 9/64" drill bit to hand-press the sludge down into the base of the hull. Be gentle, it only takes one or two pounds of force. Allow the cap to dry out overnight and it's ready to use.

Naturally, it takes several seconds to load each cap, and that pile of sludge in the saucer will be drying out, so every three or four caps I will add a couple more drops of denatured alcohol to that pile of sludge to maintain the "toothpaste" consistency.

[Rojelio]

Thanks ofitg, that's pretty ingenious. I'll probably eventually end up doing something like that.

How is your stuff working out? Have you tested it much with live fire?

[ofitg]

Making my own caps has been an ongoing "hobby" for about 20 years, and I've tested small batches to evaluate changes in the procedure, but I don't shoot homemade caps on a regular basis. As long as I can get store-bought caps, I'd rather pay a few dollars and use my spare time for other things.

[wicket]

I like the speed and precision of loading primers dry, but pressing them makes me a bit nervous. Ofitg, have you ever tried mixing powdered shellac into the primer mix, loading dry, and adding a small drop of alcohol to bind the powder together once the cap's loaded?

[ofitg]

No, I haven't tried that..... but I don't see why it wouldn't work, as long as the shellac particles were finely ground and evenly distributed throughout the mixture.

I usually stir in 1/3 CC of liquid shellac from the hardware store (21% shellac solids by volume) with 33 grains of dry ingredients - KClO3, sulfur, antimony sulfide, grit & sodium bicarb - and then add enough alcohol to achieve the "toothpaste" consistency. If I'm doing the math correctly, that works out to roughly 3 percent shellac by weight.

[wicket]

I've been leaving the grit out of the powder lately, have you tried that with the shellac mix?

[ofitg]

No.... I decided to stick with the original formula, but I'm not sure how much difference the grit really makes. Theoretically, it should make the caps more reliable, but that's only a theory.

I would note that this compound from Davis's book, was eventually dropped by the Army because people were concerned about the possibility of bore erosion. The KClO3 compound which replaced it contained no grit.

[wicket]

The grit in the mixture sure sounds creepy when pressed mechanically, but i never had any go off accidentally under gradual heavy pressure. I read somewhere that the antimony compound serves as both a fuel and grit, but don't know where i read it.

[ofitg]

Now that you mention it, I think that makes sense. Antimony Sulfide is a crystalline substance, so Antimony Sulfide "powder" should be tiny crystals.... very similar to ground glass or fine sand.

According to Hatcher's Notebook, the Span-Am-War primer mix was replaced by a new recipe prior to WW1 -

21.97% sulfur
47.20% KClO3
30.83% Antimony Sulfide

Hatcher also recounts the shelf-life problems mentioned by Davis, caused by "souring" of the sulfur/KClO3 in humid environments.

[wicket]

I've made antimony, tin, and iron sulfide, all tend to be somewhat glassy solids, and mixtures made with them all detonate as reliably as the same mixtures containing grit. It may be that when finely powdered the chemicals require grit, i only sieve my chemicals to # 80 mesh. I don't recall seeing anything in my reading on the subject that mentions how finely chlorate mixtures like H-48 and FH-42 were powdered.

[Mike 56]

I have a Splitfire nipple on my CVA Bobcat side lock Rifle thats made for #10 caps. Super Bang ring caps worked every time. They were a tight fit but you could them on. I have run out of ring caps and #10 CCI caps to fit the nipple.

[wicket]

Some people have good luck with ring caps Mike, and it seems perfectly logical that they'd work, but i've never been able to get the ones i have to work on my Pietta revolvers with the factory nipples. I tried dribbling a bit of fine powder into the nipples, and still nothing. Toy caps just generally don't seem as strong as they were when i was a kid. Rather than shopping around for the "right" toy caps or loading cap hulls with punched disks from roll caps and fine powder, i started making my own copper cap hulls and filling them with a standard priming powder, it's the solution that works best for me.

[Mike 56]

The ring caps did not work on my revolvers either. I have a Tap O Cap i am still hit and miss using toy caps and fff or crushed KIK black powder. I am making another batch of black powder soon i want to try it under the toy caps. I would like to make a good priming compound but it seams it can be dangerous to make if you don't know what you are doing.

[wicket]

It's dangerous even if you know what you're doing Mike, even more dangerous if you only think you know what you're doing, which has been my case on a couple of occasions.

[Ajax]

the problem is wicket, is you don't learn how to do something till ya do it. There in lies the rub. I want to try to make some priming compound for my tap o cap but that will wait till i get home to Texas where i am much more isolated.

Andy

[wicket]

Like they say, experience is a good teacher Andy. But since priming compositions are a bit unforgiving as teachers (imagine a teacher who chops off your fingers instead of rapping your knuckles when you screw-up), it's good to go into it with as much information as you can learn ahead of time. As it happens though, there's a thread here on Cast Boolits that's full of such information, it's well worth reading before opening up the chemistry set.

[marcika]

Wicket. Could You please make a short video of your cap making rod die working? Thank You!

[Lee]

I'm just jumping in here, have not and do not intend to read all the posts.

If you are talking antimony trisulfide and potassium chlorate, don't make up more then 2-3 grams in a batch, and do not enclose it, or grind it or smack it.
You're talking to 4 fingered F***ED Mike about that. You need to watch your azzz with these primer formulas. I've got missing parts (x4) to prove it..............
Just sayin.... be careful guys......... it ain't pretty........

[wicket]

Sorry Marcika, i lack the technology to make a video. The die set is very simple; it's mounted on a cheap arbor press from Harbor Freight which makes it look more complicated than it is. There are three main functions: First a plunger punches a cross-shaped blank from strip copper. Second a cup-forming plunger is pressed down through the center of the plunger that cuts the cross, and presses the cross into a cup shape. Third, both plungers are extracted simultaneously from the die to allow the strip of copper to be advanced to make the next cap. There is a bail attached to the plunger of the press itself, it pivots down to transfer pressure from the press to the punch that forms the cross, then swings up to allow the arbor press plunger itself to push down the rod that shapes the cap. With both plungers buried in the die, the bail is swung down again to catch both, and extract them from the body of the die so that the copper strip may be advanced.

[Ajax]

I wasn't saying not to go into it educated. I am just saying you have to do it to learn. I know too many people in my field, electronics, who are book smart application dumb. If you take proper precautions and minimize all the possible negative out comes. In the military it's call risk assessment. I have been reading for a month straight on safety precautions and proper application of them. I will be using as much blast safety as possible i am thinking of manufacturing a Lexan box to work in with hemostats. We shall see.

Andy

[ofitg]

Ajax, a suggestion - measure out 1 grain of potassium chlorate, 1/2 grain of sulfur, and 1/2 grain of antimony sulfide. Mix them together. That's enough dry mix to load four percussion caps.

Shake it. Put it in a plastic container and drop it on the floor. Abuse it. Get a feel for what you can do, and what you cannot do.

[dondiego]

I was under the impression that you were only supposed to handle the primer mix in the wet form. That should be safe until it dries.

[ofitg]

I mix mine dry, but then I stir in alcohol & shellac to wet it for loading. Some people load it dry.

The point I was trying to convey to Ajax was, he can experiment with extremely small batches to learn how "touchy" it is (or isn't).

[AlaskanGuy]

Excellent point oftig.... I am gunna try that as well when i get the stuff together.....

[Ajax]

Awesome Oftig thats what i was wanting. Thank you very much.


Andy

[ofitg]

I've made antimony, tin, and iron sulfide, all tend to be somewhat glassy solids, and mixtures made with them all detonate as reliably as the same mixtures containing grit. It may be that when finely powdered the chemicals require grit, i only sieve my chemicals to # 80 mesh. I don't recall seeing anything in my reading on the subject that mentions how finely chlorate mixtures like H-48 and FH-42 were powdered.

You got my curiosity going, so I chased down a footnote in Davis's book. According to Chamot's 1922 book, Microscopy of Small Arms Primers, the U.S. Army's Ordnance Department had the following specs for antimony sulfide -

All would pass through a 100-mesh screen
30-50% (preferably 40%) would be retained by a 150-mesh screen
30-50% (preferably 40%) would pass through a 200-mesh screen

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087229635;view=1up;seq=64

[wicket]

Well done Ofitg, thanks for posting the link. Doesn't appear to be a problem with fine particle size even if no grit is included in the mixture. Chamot's remarks on shellac penetration from sealing were also interesting. I tested a batch the other day with and without nitrocellulose covering disks, all sealed with shellac, and had a couple of duds and three where the detonation sounded dull. Obviously i have too heavy a hand to be trusted with shellac around primers.

[ofitg]

Next time I make caps, I think I'll try it without the grit. If I start getting duds, I might conclude that grit is necessary with the 3% shellac binder.....

[wicket]

Interesting question regarding grit vs binder. Chamot sure seems to have an issue with shellac, but it's not clear to me why. Poking around in his book, the cut-away photographs of 19th century caps really caught my attention, the thickness of the metal is impressive.

[ofitg]

Well, crud! I just examined my antimony sulfide with a magnifier. I couldn't find any particles as large as 0.1mm across. My stuff has been milled too finely to conform with the old Army spec.

Might be a good excuse to buy some tin and try your method for making tin sulfide.......

[wicket]

Sounds like it was ground for fireworks without regard to its abrasive qualities, i haven't had any problems with the tin sulfide and the ingredients are easy to find.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

A bit of useful information perhaps........http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm

BvT

[wicket]

I think the question is more how to set the stuff off than how to make it, and to put a finer point on it, what sort of dies are useful in making the caps that hold the primer that ignites the powder that jack built.

[Texantothecore]

I just downloaded the files and took a quick look. Wow it was just what I was seeking for my reference library.

Thank you for the link.

[ofitg]

This week I got a new cap-making die in the mail. Brushhippie posted a video of this die on Youtube so I had to try it out.

It was obviously patterned after the Forster Tap-O-Cap, but there are some distinct differences. Here's a photo of the new cap-maker on the left, and the original Forster Tap-O-Cap on the right -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/kf_cm_zpsf7142444.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/kf_cm_zpsf7142444.jpg.html)

The new cap-maker has a shorter cylinder body, made from aircraft-grade aluminum, while the original Tap-O-Cap had an all-steel body. Both machines have a steel rod anchored down in the base of the body (not visible in the photo).

The new cap-maker has a plunger/piston with 8 teeth on the end, made from non-magnetic stainless steel. The original Tap-O-Cap's plunger was a bit longer, and had 12 teeth on the end.

Both machines work the same way. First you insert thin sheet aluminum into the slot on the side of the body, and then you drive the plunger down into the body. The plunger cuts a disc from the sheet aluminum and folds it into a little percussion cap hull.

Here's a photo of the new cap-maker's hulls on the left, and the original Tap-O-Cap's hulls on the right (I used the soft sheet aluminum from disposable pie pans). The new cap-maker's hulls are almost identical to the old Tap-O-Cap hulls. They are the same length, and they fit well on the nipples of my Uberti and Pietta revolvers.

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/kf_caps_zps7c61bc3e.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/kf_caps_zps7c61bc3e.jpg.html)

[just_shooter]

Hi, ofitg! Where can I buy this tool?

[ofitg]

Brushhippie gives contact info for the builder in his video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91nRXFEXaEg&feature=share&list=UU4keAx4qZJL907szrou

Another option is to PM the guy "Capmaker" on the Gunslingersgulch forum.

[Rattus58]

Hi, ofitg! Where can I buy this tool?
kvn440@yahoo.com

[shaggybull]

this was posted yesterday.

This video details its use and some information
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMs3HeAo9EI


Here's a video of us using the caps with a suggested "kicker charge" of black powder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpZLswXxC0

[just_shooter]

kvn440@yahoo.com

10x
I made contact at this email with Kevin. Great fellow.

[AlaskanGuy]

You guys need to give our member MannyCA a look.... He made some pretty awesome dies, and I. Just ordered one... He is a great guy to chat with, and a member here....

Here is the link... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?244276-Cap-makers-now-ready-for-sale&p=2811314#post2811314

[ofitg]

Outstanding, AG! Thanks for the update!

[AlaskanGuy]

No problem... Tell manny I sent ya for a free set.... He he...

:kidding: <-------- this means I am Kidding... He wont give you a free be....

AG

[Rattus58]

No problem... Tell manny I sent ya for a free set.... He he...

:kidding: <-------- this means I am Kidding... He wont give you a free be....

AGHow did you get in touch with him? I'd like to order one from him too!

Aloha... :grin:

[smoked turkey]

Rattus58 you can find mannny's ad for his excellent cap maker on page 5 in the swappin & sellin section. That changes daily however. His op was 6-7-2014 and is titled WTS-Black Powder percussion cap maker by mannyCA. I do not have any connection with the sales of these, just a satisfied customer that wants to help spread the word that someone on the forum here is making and selling nice units at a good price. Thanks.

[Rattus58]

Rattus58 you can find mannny's ad for his excellent cap maker on page 5 in the swappin & sellin section. That changes daily however. His op was 6-7-2014 and is titled WTS-Black Powder percussion cap maker by mannyCA. I do not have any connection with the sales of these, just a satisfied customer that wants to help spread the word that someone on the forum here is making and selling nice units at a good price. Thanks.Thank you.. and Much Aloha... :cool:

[marcika]

I just find, that 4mm electronic capacitor upper ends are perfect for the Colt 1860. You just cut them in half and pull out the interior layers with a small screwdriver or something. I made about 20-25 pieces in half an hour. The walls of it are thicker, than the regular caps, hence it can be used multiple times. I need to mention though that i didnt measure out the amount of AM (prepared just quick for tsting about 15 mg without proper procedure just mixing bit of the not grinded ingredients on a paper and poured in the cap), but it made every time an adequate bang, and pushed a 12mm rubber plug through the barrel from the cylinder. I was using the same cap refilled after the trial. If You have a lot of this little capacitors in scrap PSUs or motherboards then it is an easy way.

[ofitg]

Marcika, thanks for the tip. I see that a person can buy ten 10uF capacitors on Ebay for one dollar(including postage from China to the U.S.). That's about the same price that people are paying for percussion caps nowadays..... if the little aluminum capacitor bodies are reusable, it becomes cost-effective.

I wonder if those Chinese 10uF capacitors are the correct width? The size is somewhat critical.

[marcika]

Well, the ones i collected have 4mm outer diameter. With some thick wall they are a bit loose on the Uberti 1860 Army. Pushing it a bit on the sides they seem to hold enough.
Other option might be the 4mm diameter glass tube fuse ends. 108880
Although, these are made of steel (sparks?), have thin wall. The fuse wire is welded in the middle of the cap representing a small bulge, that may couse some problems.
Sadly in our country common people are not allowed to have caps and BP. These are expected as cartridge ammo elements. Only with ammo loading licence and cartridge gun licence can i buy it in the gunshop. I dont have these yet. However, we can have muzzleloaders without any paper over 18 of age. I cant test the suggested caps for You :sad: but will post pictures of my gun capped with these empty caps and You decide :)

[ofitg]

Marcika, a couple of people on a different forum talked about modifying wire cutters to crimp caps down to the proper size - this might work on your capacitor bodies if they're loose -

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=753806

[marcika]

Made some measurements. According to the dimensions published here (http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9093.0), the capacitor and fuse caps are a bit bigger in diameter resulting that the cap sides are holding on the bottom of the cone (with red on the sematic picture). They need to be cut longer to leave space (with green) for the priming mixture.
The fuse cap has to wide internal diameter and has to be pushed from the sides to take an oval shape or it is falling from the cone.
The capacitor cap used 3 times was torned at first shot, but i pushed it back to original shape and worked well at the 2 following trials.
109004109006109007109008109009

[marcika]

Made some ~0.5g FoM just to ease my curiosity :) and to try in the alu and steel cups. Just wanted to inform you, that the waterish suspension of FoM is eating the alu caps quickly! The steel cup seems ok.
Read the post on the mixes and it seems that is not clear what is grit for. I just read, that it is forming incandescent particles and theese are the ones igniting the propellant. Sb2O3 and alu powder has the advantage beeing fuel and transforming into incandescent particles. Alu is burning faster which might be a con.

[brushhippie]

Is Mannyca still making these dies? Anybody know? Looked all over cant find his info...looked in sellin and swappin...no luck.

[Harter66]

Hippie I looked him up a couple of months ago he said he wasn't anymore .

[Idz]

Too bad MannyCA isn't making his dies anymore. If you have access to a lathe you can easily make your own dies. Here's a link to my write-up:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?274339-Guide-to-making-percussion-caps

[OverMax]

This topic is so old its got chin whiskers.

[Texantothecore]

Roll caps are yesterday's tomatoes. FA42 primer works.

[wicket]

Works for me. Corrosive as hell, but but easy to make and very reliable.

[Idz]

I don't see how rollcap caps are very corrosive. You have 0.02 grains at most of corrosive salts buried in 50 grains or so of blackpowder crud. I haven't noticed any difference between commercial and homemade caps as far as corrosion. Maybe if you didn't clean the gun you could find a difference.

[just_shooter]

What is FA42?

[ofitg]

I think they are referring to Frankford Arsenal FH-42, listed here -

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/priming-mixtures.58110/

[wicket]

Dunno whether toy caps are any more corrosive than FH42. I tried them a couple of times and found them weak, filled with inert grit, and annoying to work with, that's my objection to them. It is kind of a pain to have to perform a prompt thorough cleaning after firing corrosives, but them's the rules.