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View Full Version : Crazy pressure problem suddenly in my 44mag 1894marlin



AricTheRed
02-18-2013, 02:49 PM
Here is the short version. I was having accuracy issues with a CB load in my 1894 Marlin. I decided that the Lee Factory Crimp Die was likely resizing my carefully sized boolits to be too small for the chamber throat on the marlin contributing to its lack of accuracy. Accuracy was always better in the SRH by a wide margin. After removing the carbide collar I put together a test batch and went to the range with reduced loads beginning with more that 2gr less than my previous max load. I brought 15 rds of seven different loads with powder charges ranging from 20gr H-110 up to 22.1gr., my Marlin, and my Ohler 35p chrono.

I immediately ran in to pressure problems. Burst primers on my second lightest load.

The only change to the loads were lighter charges which had shown no pressure signs in the past, and the removal of the carbide sizing collar from the Lee FCD.

The only other thing that I could figure would be a possible factor is that perhaps there was some leading from the previously undersized pills that now is causing a pressure problem now that I have the right size boolits?

Any insights would be appreciated.

stubert
02-18-2013, 03:37 PM
Something is WRONG, 20 - 22 grains is revolver stuff. It could be a severe case of leading.

44man
02-18-2013, 03:50 PM
The boolit was not mentioned. YOU CAN NOT DOWNLOAD H110 or 296 below starting loads.
LEADING WILL NOT DO THAT.
20 to 22.5 is 300 gr or more boolit weight ranges. With a 240 gr bullet in the .44, 23.5 gr of 296 to 24 gr is best.
You accuracy issues are from the wrong twist rate.
You do NOT have pressure problems, you are entering the S.E.E range. USE MORE POWDER!

Chicken Thief
02-18-2013, 04:11 PM
Check this data sheet, it is evident that a '94 and a 300gr boolit is a brother/sister marriage. No can do.
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/marlin-data/55823-marlin-bore-dimensions-different-models-calibers.html

Anything above @.8" is way thin ice with a 1:38 twist!

Chicken Thief
02-18-2013, 04:35 PM
This will aid you good in the future:

http://www.findthatexcel.com/search-8712657-hDOC/download-documents-millerformula.xls.htm

Tatume
02-18-2013, 05:54 PM
The problem with reducing loads of H110 and AA#9 that I have seen with my own eyes is not "SEE." It is failure to ignite. That's not to say that the other problem doesn't occurr, just that I have never seen it. Ignition failure will start the bullet into the barrel, and the powder charge will be packed into a hard lump behind the bullet. When the bullet is driven out with a brass rod, the powder falls out as a clump. It is yellow, as the graphite coating is removed by the primer flash.

The "SEE" ignition problem probably does occur also, and is even more reason to follow directions when loading these powders.

AricTheRed
02-18-2013, 05:54 PM
This will aid you good in the future:

http://www.findthatexcel.com/search-8712657-hDOC/download-documents-millerformula.xls.htm

Thanks for the link to the stability factor spreadsheet, very handy.

Everyone else keep the comments/insights coming, here is some additional info.

As for the 300's being too heavy/long for the 1894 1:38" twist I've been using the Saeco #433 300gn FNGC which from other reports such as Glenn Fryxell @ LASC (I'm sure you are all farmiliar with his writing but if not check 'em out at [url]http://www.lasc.us/fryxell44overweight.htm[url] "...The Saeco 300 grain GC-RNFP was loaded on top of 21.5 grains W296. From the 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk this load generated 1373 fps with reasonable accuracy. This load fed from the Marlin's magazine superbly and delivered excellent accuracy at 1679 fps.") should be OK even with the slow Marlin twist rate.

Additionally I had previously fired the same boolit (lube-sized .4315, from the same rifle, powder charge, primer, lube, crimp, with the same COAL(1.690"), with no pressure problems before. The only change was removing the carbide sizing ring from the Lee FCD.

My first thought was leading so I cleaned the rifle last night which really did not seem to produce much in the way of dirty patches and when inspecting the bore before cleaning I could not see any obvious problem.

Chicken Thief
02-18-2013, 06:17 PM
Sounds like SEE.
Looser boolit fit in brass, pops with primer and powder makes a stop/start.
Long story short = The burning retardant that hinders all powder acting like fast pistol is somewhat consumed at start up and pressure drops fast so burning almost comes to a halt. From there it will catch on again but now as a (wery) fast powder.

There is a reason for the min. charge of slow powders, as shown here.

243winxb
02-18-2013, 06:49 PM
Burst primers A better description is needed. A gas leak between the brass & primer may put a hole in the edge of the primer. Oversize pocket, or small diameter primers. Or an expanded web area from high pressure? Is there a pock mark on the bolt face? Photos?

AricTheRed
02-18-2013, 06:53 PM
The primers have a small hole in the center of the dimple where the firing pin has struck them. I have made certain that there is no burr on the firing pin and in fact the pin now has a very small flat spot on it from the gas-cutting.

Doc Highwall
02-18-2013, 07:15 PM
How about a bad lot of primers where the cups are too soft or thin?

Chicken Thief
02-18-2013, 07:38 PM
How about a bad lot of primers where the cups are too soft or thin?

Awww come on. QC cant be that bad anywhere?

lwknight
02-18-2013, 07:52 PM
You need magnum primers or rifle primers for a rifle.
They have tougher cups.
Also the Super Black Hawk is not a 1:38 twist.
Thats why 300 grain bullets work well.

DGV
02-18-2013, 08:10 PM
By any chance were the primers Winchester? Was the Brass Remington?

AricTheRed
02-18-2013, 08:13 PM
CCI Magnum Large Pistol
Brand new Starline brass

drklynoon
02-18-2013, 09:23 PM
I would take a close look at your OAL if your cases are too long and the LEE carbide sizer was allowing you enough expansion room for the boolit to exit cleanly and now that you stopped using it you may be running into the crimp being wedged against the throat enough to hold the boolit. Just a thought.

drklynoon
02-18-2013, 09:57 PM
After carefully re-reading your post Your load is not exactly reduced with a 300 gr boolit and 20 gr of H110. I seriously doubt you are running into SEE problems unless the rifle has a large chamber throat and the boolit is exiting the case from the primer, effectively increasing your case capacity therefore decreasing the pressures. I would check to see were the barreling of the rifle meets the loaded round. If the case is butting up to the rifling then you may have an issue were the bullet cannot escape. If not then you may have the other problem mentioned earlier. If the throat is not deep and the case is not meeting the rifling than I would load it down some or change powders.

runfiverun
02-18-2013, 11:17 PM
it's a marlin there is no throat just a huge volumnous area in front of the chamber kinda like t/c uses.

MtGun44
02-19-2013, 02:46 AM
First - what cartridge? You fail to mention this fundamental point,
altho I assume .44 Mag from 1894 and SRH mentions. Also no
mention of boolit wt or design. Need the basic at least.

Federal primers? They are really soft. Also, is it possible the
brass is too long and jamming into the end of the chamber
so it can't release the boolit?

With a 300 gr 20 gr H110 is not a reduced load, this is spurious,
with Jbullets, the starting load is 18 gr. But this is from someone
else's comments, don't see any OP info on design or wt.

Otherwise, I wonder about firing pin protrusion.

Bill

saintdel
02-19-2013, 04:48 AM
Have you pulled the boolits from the unfired rounds and verified your charge weights and the powder loaded?

44man
02-19-2013, 09:20 AM
The problem with reducing loads of H110 and AA#9 that I have seen with my own eyes is not "SEE." It is failure to ignite. That's not to say that the other problem doesn't occurr, just that I have never seen it. Ignition failure will start the bullet into the barrel, and the powder charge will be packed into a hard lump behind the bullet. When the bullet is driven out with a brass rod, the powder falls out as a clump. It is yellow, as the graphite coating is removed by the primer flash.

The "SEE" ignition problem probably does occur also, and is even more reason to follow directions when loading these powders.
Yes, mostly what happens but think what happens if the powder fires.

44man
02-19-2013, 09:36 AM
I don't know why a primer is punctured, marlin hammers do not strike that hard and they are less then my revolvers with over power springs. I have shot thousands of Fed 150 primers from the same gun. Primers are not punctured from internal pressure unless the pin breaks the metal.
I read the OP as "BURST" primers, not punctured and that is different then an S.E.E. event. S.E.E will expand the head and dump the primer out.
It is time to check firing pin extension and condition of the end.

AricTheRed
02-19-2013, 09:44 AM
All salient points, and brings to mind one can never be too careful when it comes to building their own ammo.
The cartridge is 44mag
Cases by Starline. I bought 4k brand-spankin' new ones (much to wifey's dismay) about a year ago.
The boolit is out of the Saeco 433-2 which is a 300gr FPGC.
The mold has been beagled so they drop slightly oversize about .432"
They are lube sized to .4316 with Lee Alox and a Hornaday gas-check.

All of my brass has been full-length sized and primed months ago with CCI magnum large pistol primers.
As far as powders go I only have 3 in the house, H-110, Varget, & Trailboss so I'm certain the correct powder has been used.
Since they need to feed eeliably in the 1894SS the COAL is 1.690"

I origonally did the load-workup at the 25yd line. Now before anyone starts poo-pooing this try and take a wheelgun to the 50/100yd line at United Sportsmen in ContraCosta county and meet the ultra friendly rangemaster there. Let's just say neithe I nor any of my shooting buddies go there any more because if we wanted to be shouted at by an unhappy smelly bearded man we'd marry one. (Hey it's California!)

Anyhow back to the story. My records indicated the most accurate load was all of the components above ontop of 22.8gr H-110. Afreind amd I had taken about 13 different charge weights (15rds ea.) from approx 19gr to well into the danger zone of heartily over-charged to the range and settled on 22.8 (see the avatar pic).

When back at the bench I started loading up several boxes to put on the shelf, got about 200 rolled up and went to the range...

Imagine my dismay when accuracy out pf both the Ruger SRH and the lever-gun sucked!
At the same time I had the Saeco mold modified (after casting up about 3500 boolits) by Erick at Hollowpoint mold service to drop either Cup-Points, deep HP's, or FlatPoints. I rolled up about 75 of each and took those to the range and behold, cup points more accurate than FP, & HP more accurate than CP!

So now I've figgered that I'm not actually dropping 22.8 into each case, or I am and my origonal charge weight was off and was probably lighter than 22.8 which would explain why the HP's had the best accuracu. The FP's were likely ( by the way pressure signs on my entire batch of 22.8 FP's, but not on the CP, or HP) over charged.

Additionally at this time I got some virgin lead from RotoMetals (I'm spoiled living near them. Super nice folks there!) to slug the 1894 and be sure that my boolits fit as good as they could in both guns. Read my other post ehere I tell how I broke the ejector, which was not all bad as it gave me (again to wifeys dismay!) An excuse to get the Wild West Guns Happy Trigger kit. Which by the way makes my new 1894SS have a fantastic trigger like my Pop's '50s mfg Marlin 336 30-30!

Anyway so there I am with the mic and this funny little piece of lead and i've just verified that the marlin has no throat. Just a big gaping empty space infront of the rifiling which the groove dia measured .432".

So now I'm thinking that I've got dangerous over-charged loads with boolits that are being sized again by my Lee FCD. So I start my charge workup again after removing the sizing collar from the FCD.

And that fellow lead-heads is where our not so intrepid hero is left. Please forgive the typos, doing this post on my phone...

30calflash
02-19-2013, 09:52 AM
You mentioned that there is no throat, if your load's OAL matches the length of the empty space you may be getting pierced primers because the bullet is not getting a running start. Try to seat them .020" deeper, the pierced primers may stop.

It happened to me in a rifle years back. Short throat with a heavy for the caliber bullet. About 30-40% of the primers were pierced. It will etch/eat the tip of the pin if you continue.

AricTheRed
02-19-2013, 10:07 AM
61648

Here is an example. The little black dot in the center of the firing pin dimple is a hole in the primer cup. I saw this when shooting my over-charged FP loads. When I broke the ejector slugging the bore I replaced the firing pin, ejector & trigger.

I'm certain (although I may be wrong, ask the wife some time.) that the hole in the primer cup is due to extreme pressure not a burr on the firing pin. Not only is the firing pin new, but after the last range session where I was burning holes in the primers with the 21.1gr load I carefully inspected the new firing pin to be sure it was not sharp.

243winxb
02-19-2013, 10:11 AM
Combine maximum headspace with maximum firing pin protrusiion=Pierced primers with high pressure loads. Replace the firing pin, it has gas cutting. This is my guess. :) Edit. So the firing pin is new, ok.

44man
02-19-2013, 10:13 AM
H110 and 296 will not spike with an over charge, pressure increase is progressive.
Long throat? What about a revolver?
Poor dies, no case tension? Soft lead sized when seated?
Punctured primers are mechanical---FROM THE REAR.

44man
02-19-2013, 10:29 AM
61648

Here is an example. The little black dot in the center of the firing pin dimple is a hole in the primer cup. I saw this when shooting my over-charged FP loads. When I broke the ejector slugging the bore I replaced the firing pin, ejector & trigger.

I'm certain (although I may be wrong, ask the wife some time.) that the hole in the primer cup is due to extreme pressure not a burr on the firing pin. Not only is the firing pin new, but after the last range session where I was burning holes in the primers with the 21.1gr load I carefully inspected the new firing pin to be sure it was not sharp.
That primer dent is WAY too deep, you are fracturing metal. It is not round either and looks like a punch mark. Pin protrusion should be .060", round and smooth.

243winxb
02-19-2013, 10:32 AM
You may want to install a new Hammer Spring (mainspring) #37 Parts list > http://www.marlinfirearms.com/pdfs/manuals/mfc_centerfire_1894.pdf The firing pin needs to stay in contact with the primer. If the spring is weak, the pin rebounds, unsupported primer. My guess is > Main problem is high pressure.

AricTheRed
02-19-2013, 10:34 AM
H110 and 296 will not spike with an over charge, pressure increase is progressive.
Long throat? What about a revolver?
Poor dies, no case tension? Soft lead sized when seated?
Punctured primers are mechanical---FROM THE REAR.

I forgot to mention the alloy for all of the boolits is Lyman#2

AricTheRed
02-19-2013, 10:47 AM
I guess the question I have that has not been explicitly stated is...

Is a boolit sized .4316" (instead of something smaller, because the FCD was resizing the seated/crimped boolit in the case) appropriate for a throat/groove diameter of .432"

This pressure problem seems to have coincided with removing the carbide post crimp sizer ring from the Lee FCD.

Or could it be that in adition to actually putting boolits sized .4316 down the bore I also had a bit of lead in there too, and would it be a visible/obviously leaded bore.

I've been shooting a long time for a young Californian but only reloading for a minute and all of that reloading has been cast boolits for my 44mag, and all of the centerfire shooting was commercial jacketed stuff.

drklynoon
02-19-2013, 10:48 AM
Looking at your picture of the brass I am not seeing flow from the primer, headstamp marring, or ejector marks. The primer still appears rounded. I'm leaning towards a firing pin problem. However, you mentioned that the boolits drop .432 and the throat in the rifle is .432 as well. This could still be a case of the boolit being wedged into the case due to the throat area being too small or cases too big. This may be why the sizing ring in the FCD was saving this from happening.

felix
02-19-2013, 11:55 AM
Yes, some lots of 44 mag of Starline and Hornady cases are too fat for some chambers. Just the opposite problem with 45 Colt chambers which are typically way too large. The primer problem is looking like the firing pin is too big, too long. Metal is being thinned out way too much. ... felix

Doc Highwall
02-19-2013, 12:20 PM
You also mentioned what the best load was. Are these loads loaded with the same lot of powder?

If it was a different lot of powder that was 10% slower then the normal burning rate that you tested for the load, and a new lot of powder burns 10% faster then a normal burning rate will raise pressure a great amount.

I agree the indent on the primer does look deep in the picture. Too much firing pin protrusion along with it being too blunt will give you pierced primers.

44man
02-19-2013, 12:22 PM
Felix comes through as usual.
THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO WITH THE LOADS, it is NOT internal pressure that punctures a primer.
Internal pressure will impact the primer and kick the pin and hammer back, called hammer bounce that happens with EVERY gun but it will never break a primer. I have shot standard LP, fed 150's to over 55,000 psi and they should take up to 60,000 psi or more.
That firing pin is the problem. Clean it up, round and polish it and make sure no more the .060" sticks out. MAX is .065".

454PB
02-19-2013, 12:56 PM
Years ago I had a Mossberg rifle in .308 Winchester that was piercing primers with mild loads. I disassembled the bolt, smoothed and polished the firing pin tip, and added a shim to increase the force of the pin strike. The pierced primers went away.

AricTheRed
02-19-2013, 01:22 PM
To everyone, thanks for all of the Brain Power on loan here. I'm always impressed how quickly the brainstorming sessions shape up. Everyone had something to add and some have pointed me in new directions.

I'm at the office now multislacking but when I get home tonight I'll be sure to check the firing pin protrusion and be doubly certain the bore is spic-and-span.

Tomorrow I head back to the range to try and not shoot my chronograph again and I'll let everyone know what the results are.

mdi
02-19-2013, 01:31 PM
I once read of over pressure signs from too large a bullet/case. The case had no room to expand in the chamber, and caused the higher pressure. Perhaps the LFC was reducing the cartridge OD enough to eliviate the over size problems. Measure a finished cartridge to eliminate this prob...

AricTheRed
02-24-2013, 10:57 PM
I think I should have posted this in leverguns...

But here is the after action:

I took my totally clean, no lead fouling for sure, 1984ss to the range and experienced the exact same holes in the primer cups. I stopped at one hole by the way.

I then finished shooting a sample of all of the load, with my Super Redhawk, I had brought over the chrono, Ohler 35P survuved another range trip. By the way are chronographs like WWII B-17 crews, should you have to retire them after 25 sorties? Cause this one only has two with no casualties...

Best load was 22.45gr H-110 (I did not bring anything heartier) under my Saeco 300 GR FPGC that had not seen the Lee Factory Crimp resizer-ring. loads started at 20.3 and went up in steps from 3 - .75 gr (bigger steps at the bottom). accuracy kept getting better the hotter the load. At 50yds the SRH(and me) were able to get to 1.6" the only load that the 1894 did not have a holey primer on was the lightest at 20.3 and that was a 2" group.

Additionally I brought out some Winchester 240gr JSP factory loads, no holey primers but the groups were, and are I have them on paper, horrible. 4.37" SRH & 3.27" 1894SS. I am confident that the accuracy is not a consistency problem in the factory loads as I chronographed them:

Win 240gr JSP (all for m the same box) 8 shots in...
Super Redhawk

1846 max vel
1408 min vel
0060 max spread
1431 average fps
0020 std deviation


Marlin 1894SS

1788 max vel
1768 min vel
0020 max spread
1781 average fps
0008 std deviation


So all this comes back to what the heck is the problem and that is when I head a little voice in my head(called 243winxb), not the one I take those pills for by the way!


You may want to install a new Hammer Spring (mainspring) #37 Parts list > http://www.marlinfirearms.com/pdfs/manuals/mfc_centerfire_1894.pdf The firing pin needs to stay in contact with the primer. If the spring is weak, the pin rebounds, unsupported primer. My guess is > Main problem is high pressure.

So I got to thinking about the firing pin. I had already measured and it only protrudes .048. so that was certainly not the problem. then I looked at the other half of the firing pin.

One can see in the photos that the rear of the "rear firing pin" (1894 has a 2-part firing pin) is clearly protruding from the rear of the bolt face. Before I got out my hand-dandy auger file out used to snuggle up .014" inside the rear of the bolt.

This would indicate to me that the primer cup/firing-pin indentation is basically unsupported by the hammer and mainspring for a same amount of distance .014".

So I went to town on the rifle Taliban style. I went in to my cave, got out a file and went to work. Any way now there is only .004" clearance between the hammer and rear firing pin after dry-firing.

I thank you all for your suggestions, clues, and possible paths forward. I'll be sure to let you know what happens when I next head out to the range and attempt to not shoot my chronograph again,
Aric

44man
02-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Strange for me to figure out.
The firing pins are not spring loaded and will stay forward with the hammer against it but internal pressure will "bounce" the pin and hammer back. That can puncture a primer if the tip is rough or sharp.
One thing I need to add is Marlin pins can break if you dry fire, I have seen them break with just ONE hammer drop.
Make sure the pin slides easy in it's hole and there are no burrs inside the bolt to impede movement.
Case tension still comes to mind and the boolit might be moving out before ignition. That increases airspace. It can make a boolit stutter in a long throat. Most do not know primer pressure but in a rifle, primer pressure alone can reach 4000 psi. A LP mag will be less but it it is still up there so you must help hold the boolit in the brass with tension and with just enough crimp.
Some dies expand the brass too much, made for soft boolits, not good for tension.
I will give an idea that might help if you choose to try it.
Use a standard primer instead of a magnum.
None of my .44's are loaded with mag primers!
Boolit size? Again not much there. I shot up to .434" boolits from my Marlin with full loads.
I shot hundreds of 330 gr boolits with 21 gr of 296, hundreds of 320 gr with 21.5 gr of 296, all with Fed 150 primers.
I have no real answer but can only suggest things to look for.

454PB
02-25-2013, 12:32 PM
This is exactly what I was pointing out in my comparison to the problem I had with my .308. The firing pin was a bit rough on the tip, and the weak spring was allowing it to "bounce", resulting in fired primers looking much like your pictures.

243winxb
02-27-2013, 01:09 PM
So I went to town on the rifle Taliban style. :confused: Not sure that was a good idea? Pressure in a revolver may be lower than in the rifle using the same load. The gap between the barrel/cylinder should vent the pressure faster.

AricTheRed
03-05-2013, 02:40 AM
Latest update. Saturday I went to the range with Wifey, more news about that here...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?187086-Anyone-using-Vihtavouri-N-350

I tried one of my "safe" loads I was having problems with, and it was a total fail. Tensey little hole in the primer, just as before. Just one round fired and I knew it was not right, if all things in life were that obvious to me.

So I went back to the garage that night with my 1894, my NPR, an auger bit file (look it up these are cool, auger bit files I mean), and some feeler gauges and went to work.

After many assembly/re-assembly/file some, and try it again cycles. I ended up filing on the; hammer, in two places, and the rear-boltface. I tested the clerance with some Plastigauge and am now certain that the rifle will be AWESOME! the next time I take it to the range.

If I'm reading the plastiguage correctly I've got less than .002" clearance fro the hammerface (no it is not my nick-name) to the rear firing pin and just about .004" clearance hammerface to rear-bolt face, some of that has to be the plastigauge. So any way I figure the rear firingpin is proud a thou' or two now, which should solve the problem. I hope.

So more news as soon as I throw some lead (lyman#2) over the chronograph and through some more paper at about 50yds...