Frustration and despair: ALL my pb cast smokeless loads lead - heavily

[dexterblack]

With BP, and adequately large boolits, I swab, then dry patch once after each shot, and only need to clean for lead after 15 or 20 shots -- and its not a big ordeal. But for smokeless...

In my .45-70 High Wall and Sharps (uberti & pedersoli, respectively) I lightly sized and flared a "gauge cartridge" to measure COAL with the boolit barely touching the lands. (COAL can be quite different between the two rifles, btw.) For lube, I have tried SPG, 45-45-10, and 45-45-10 tl over spg pan lube. Mostly, I'm shooting acww. I'm using 26.5 gr X 5744 on the .45-70s. Tried 'em with and w/o cardboard wads under pb boolits. For these guns, I have considered softening up my alloy a bit. Perhaps 3 parts soww to 2 parts coww + Sn to get about 10 bhn air cooled?

At least one of my transgressions is very clear to me: lyman 457677 was sized right at groove size of the rifle. It keyholed, and leaded so badly that it took all afternoon to clean the lead out...and there's still some visible "ripple" in the grooves, a few inches ahead of the throat. (Those were 20-1, btw.) Even with 2 thousandths over groove dia., several lymans, and the lee 459-500-3r, lead pretty heavily. (Only the gas check lyman 457671 has shown significantly less leading).

On the .30-06 I tried lee C312-155-2r sized to .309, with htww (435 deg for 1 hour, treated after sizing, then pan lubed spg + tl 45-45-10). Powder was 18gr of Unigue. First group was great, then they opened up fast, and the leading was horrific. (I will try this again, but with slower powder like 5744, and with bullets sized to .311 -- or would that be sized too big?)

Other than the blunder of undersizing some boolits, what do you think is the greatest culprit -- other than my general ineptitude? Thanks in advance.

[tomme boy]

If the 45-70 has lead at the throat, It is going to lead the rest of the way down because of it in the throat. Get that out of there and try again with a boolit 0.002" over groove.

The 3006, start at 13gr of unique an work up to where accuracy falls off. Same thing on sizing. 0.002" over groove. I would just water drop the COWW.

[44man]

Welcome to class! BP and soft lead should NEVER have leading in the bore. Now you go to smokeless and use very poor lubes and soft lead. Sorry. They do not cross over.

[Maven]

"On the .30-06 I tried lee C312-155-2r sized to .309, with htww (435 deg for 1 hour, treated after sizing, then pan lubed spg + tl 45-45-10). Powder was 18gr of Unigue. First group was great, then they opened up fast, and the leading was horrific. (I will try this again, but with slower powder like 5744, and with bullets sized to .311 -- or would that be sized too big?)"

Tomme Boy's right: 18 grs. of Unique is excessive. Also, sizing to .309" isn't helping your cause either. If you size to .310" or even .311" and try no more than 21 gr. 5744 or 23 grs. H/IMR 4198, things should improve nicely.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to your ACWWs and let the cast bullets age 7-10 days. Your COWWs may have little tin and too much antimony and giving you lots of antimonal wash also (easily confused with "leading").

Back off on the 5744 to 24 or 25 gr if using 450+ gr PB'd bullets and you might consider working up for accuracy from 22 gr. Pan lube with the SPG and shoot "as cast". Or finger lube generously with straight LLA and shoot "as cast".

As mentioned; 18 gr Unique in the '06 with that bullet is a bit much, back off to the suggested 13 gr and work up for accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[HARRYMPOPE]

I shoot 9g of Unique in several 30-06's with PB bullets from 150 to 190g.A load of 13g is getting a bit stiff.Working up from 13g is a bad idea and will lead to frustration.I have shot up to 14g and gotten good groups but they deteriorate after a group or two.I shot 9g of Unique(8.7 actually) in the CBA 2010 Military Rifle National matches with a 190g pointed PB bullet.I won the 5 shot group (4 group aggregate) at 200 yards over GC shooters that day.A sleek PB at 1200 bucked the wind pretty well.

[fredj338]

Bigger is usually better. Try sizing larger.

[MtGun44]

"right at groove" - wrong size. You want groove plus .002 or .003, sounds like you
are getting that. Also try a real design and a real lube. TL is marginal at best, try
NRA 50-50 on a conventional design.

My best results in .45-70 are with RCBS 405 GC and NRA 50-50. The GC helps a lot.

Of course, many succeed with soft lead and BP, but big grooves and lots of lube.

Bill

[tomme boy]

Forgot to ask. Are you using a gas check on these? You did not say.

[geargnasher]

TB asked the million-dollar question. If using checks on that 155 grainer it shouldn't have any problems to at least 2K fps even just using straight LLA. LLA is a lousy lube, especially for rifles, but if you keep the velocity reasonable and the alloy decently tough the deficiency of that lube will appear in group size, not necessarily in leading.

Oven heat-treated COWW is pretty hard, but should still work ok for what you're doing. Air cooled and aged 10 days works just fine with Unique in the 06 to at least 1700 fps, provided you use a check.

The advice to start at 13 grains of Unique and work up is very sound for a 155-grain gas-checked boolit in .30-06. I would expect somewhere around 15-15.5 grains would be ideal, but you'll have to work up carefully to see where the groups come together. If trying to shoot them without the check, I would suggest sizing them to .302" and paper patching.

Size the .30 caliber at least .310", use a real lube, and use a real neck expander die of the correct size to open the case up to hold the boolit with a .0015" interference fit with the brass you're using. This is important, though you will probably blow that little recommendation off like most people do. Se la Vi.

As for the 45/70s, ACWW plus a pinch of tin has always worked for me, I never went any "softer" unless building a hunting load. Leading wasn't the issue, accuracy was, so it was a balance of velocity and accuracy in my rifle. Again, a good lube is important here. Try using White Label BAC or something like that. SPG and LLA can work here, but they're marginal if you don't have everything else just right, or at least that's what I found. I used SPG on smokeless loads in .45/90 once, never again. YMMV.

A cheat for the 45/70 is to use a granular case filler like cornmeal, grits, COW, etc. Back off that 5744 load first if you try the filler, it's probably too hot already. Use enough filler to slightly compress filler and powder when seating the boolit, and keep in mind that both the compression and the added mass of the filler will raise pressure somewhat. The filler will form a sealing plug behind the boolit and prevent powder gas from leaking by and cutting the boolit. The abraded dust from gas leaks is what causes your leading. The cereal fillers also work wonders at scouring the bore, so they will quickly get rid of any residual leading in the barrel. Don't use them in bottleneck cartridges unless you really know what you're doing and have the counsel of experience, which is available here if you ask, but there are usually better ways to get medium-velocity loads to work well in bottlenecked cartridges.

Gear

[fouronesix]

Use a gas check. Use a fairly soft alloy. Use a fairly soft lube. Size from groove diameter up to about .001" larger than groove diameter. Load the 45-70 to approximate BP velocities with powders that will do that without squirrely-spiky pressure curves. In other words avoid powders that are really fast or really slow and most of the ball powders.

[Redd508]

I've had good results water dropping coww. Tho my limited experience is mostly 38s and 45s. Would that also apply to higher velocity loads like 308 or 7.62x54r? Or is gas check the best answer?

[fouronesix]

Harder alloy will resist bad things caused by higher velocity smokeless loads only up to a point. If you read the Lee manual you could get the idea that a neat and tidy scale of alloy hardness vs velocity WILL solve land stripping, accuracy and leading problems. Neat trick if it worked like that and maybe it does for some but I could never get it to work that slick.

Using a gas check on a well designed bullet solves/prevents soooo many problems. Even a fairly soft alloy of 10-12 BHN in a well designed bullet if it is gas checked can usually be loaded to velocities in the 1500-1600fps range without leading and with excellent accuracy. That would also include the bottleneck types like the 270, 7x57, 308, 30-06, etc.

[dexterblack]

FWIW, I drove down to the NMRLA Western National Shoot in Phoenix. 'Did BPCR silhouette, as well as Flintlock Target. (Super gracious, helpful & pleasant folks to someone who had never competed in ANY shooting sports!)

Anyway, I shot Lee .459-500-3r, of the same "slightly too hard" acww alloy, over about 67gr of FFG Goex (+ single wad). As I didn't have a blowtube and a sight-malfunction prevented be from swabbing from the breach end, I ended up shooting 5 rounds (sometimes 10 rounds) between swabbing -- and, yes, chambering got a little tight toward the end. But at the end of the day, cleaning for lead, although there were some "hairs" of compacted lead, it was NOTHING compared to what happens with smokeless: I did a normal cleaning with Hoppes BP version of #9, swabbed dry, then regular #9 for lead. 4 or 5 tight double-patched runs, and the lead was cleaned. Indeed, leading does not seem to be a big problem when using BP in a BPCR -- whadaya know?

[dexterblack]

Make the above "NMLRA"

[MikeS]

If you're getting good results using black powder in your 45-70 why bother trying to get a smokeless load? Black powder isn't an evil powder just waiting to mess up your rifle, and in fact I find that cleaning a rifle shot with BP cleans up much easier than one shot with smokeless.

[1bluehorse]

If you're getting good results using black powder in your 45-70 why bother trying to get a smokeless load? Black powder isn't an evil powder just waiting to mess up your rifle, and in fact I find that cleaning a rifle shot with BP cleans up much easier than one shot with smokeless.


Black Powder is good for muzzle loaders and blowin' stumps...:mrgreen:

[Larry Gibson]

"right at groove" - wrong size. You want groove plus .002 or .003, sounds like you
are getting that. ................Bill

+1, I missed that when I first posted. Try the bullets "as cast" along with the rest of my advise.

Larry Gibson

[detox]

uberti & pedersoli rifles usually have a rougher and smaller bore diameter. Try slugging your bore with pure lead fish sinker or lead ball to get accurate measurement. Then size your 20/1 bullets .002 over that. I use fiberwads and SPG lube and 5744 powder with no leading using 20/1 lead tin. My gun is a Browning 1885 BPCR with "hand lapped" Badger barrel and has never given me leading problems. My RCBS 500-bps mold is my favorite mold with this gun.

I use 5744 behind my RCBS 405gr Gas checked bullet in my Marlin Guide gun. Alox lube. No leading.

I do not have a clue about smaller caliber rifles shooting cast boolits

[detox]

If leading persists, you could try coating inside your barrel with Lyman moly bullet lube before firing. Some say this lube works really good in small diameter rifle loads. Kroil works verygood at cleaning out that moly mess.

[DLCTEX]

+1 on dropping SPG and using a smokeless lube. Carnuba Red for Warm weather and Ben's Red for cold, for example.

[tbird1960]

I have very good luck in my 45-70 with a 400 grain bullet and 26 grs of IMR 4759. It is clean non leading and it is accurate.