Unchecked .357 mag question.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

I recently got an Ideal 358432 160 gr WC mold, I plan on using it for a hard hitting 38 special self defense load. My question is, how fast can I push it/how hard should it be to be loaded as a .357 mag load. I'm thinking something along the lines of a water quenched boolit with a medium load of medium burn rate powder (I have some Accurate No. 7 on hand).

Suggestions?

[fecmech]

There is no real need for GC's in the .357 IMO. I have been running the 358429 170 gr SWC for over 40 years with max loads of 2400 or 296 with excellent accuracy and no leading. Revolver velocities are in the 1200-1300 fps range and in the rifles about 1600 fps. I have never tried to push medium or fast powders to max so I can't speak to that. My idea of .357 mag is around 1300 fps and for that I use the slower powders.

[Dan Cash]

Concur 100% with fecmec. Have not used .357 in rifles but no need of checks for handguns up to 1300 with 175 gr bullet. Bullet does not need to be nor want to be very hard. Air cooled WW is plenty hard.

[williamwaco]

There is ZERO need for a gas check in the .357 Mag.

I routinely load plain base bullets them to 1700 fps in my rifles.

There is ZERO need for water dropping.

My favorite alloy for your purpose would be something like range scrap with a little tin. ( no more than 1%)
They would BNH test at 8 to 9.


I have never used A No. 7 but I really like A No. 9 in max charges in the .357.

You will not find any data for that bullet. Start with a starting load for the 170 gr SWC and work up slowly.


PS, I have never seen that bullet. I think it will be an excellent choice,


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[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'll just start with 9 grains of 2400, with the air cooled boolits I've cast for 38 spl, and go from there.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Do you have a chronograph? If you're going for max power then you'll want to measure your speed.

I've got a spreadsheet of all the loads I've tested. Send me a PM with your email if you want me to send it to you.

[44man]

You can shoot a PB vewy, vewy fast! :Fire:
It is only when the boolit gets too soft and starts to skid that you need a check.
I made some tests with 50-50 alloy, oven hardened, between checked and unchecked. A PB was miserable for accuracy while the checked boolit shot well indeed.
Making the PB harder brought back the accuracy.
I use PB in all of my revolvers up to the .500 JRH. I shoot PB in my 45-70 revolver well over 1600 fps. I tested a friends .454 with PB up to 55,000 psi and had super accuracy, I out shot all of his jacketed loads.

[williamwaco]

You can shoot a PB vewy, vewy fast! :Fire:
It is only when the boolit gets too soft and starts to skid that you need a check.
I made some tests with 50-50 alloy, oven hardened, between checked and unchecked. A PB was miserable for accuracy while the checked boolit shot well indeed.
Making the PB harder brought back the accuracy.
I use PB in all of my revolvers up to the .500 JRH. I shoot PB in my 45-70 revolver well over 1600 fps. I tested a friends .454 with PB up to 55,000 psi and had super accuracy, I out shot all of his jacketed loads.



Surely, you don't mean 50/50 lead/tin ?

[44man]

Surely, you don't mean 50/50 lead/tin ?
No, WW's and pure lead. They oven harden to an average of 18 BHN and really need a GC.
It seems that hardening has no affect on expansion either. It sure will not halt skid with this alloy.
Leading in the bore from the PB was just zero! It is clean shooting but not good at the target at all.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

They oven harden to an average of 18 BHN and really need a GC.

Ok so now I'm getting conflicting info, williamwaco says BHN 8-9 is fine and not to water quench, 44man says 18 BHN needs a GC. I've gotten good advice from both of you, so fight it out, come to a consensus, and let me know.

[44man]

Depends on velocity and speed of the powder.
I use nothing but hunting loads so soft will skid and a GC helps. Fast instant thump from fast powder makes a boolit skid too.
Soft boolits need a more gentle start. But there is a limit to powder speeds in a small revolver case and even slow is not too slow. H110 and 296 are still fast powders.
It sounds strange that water dropped WW boolit at 18 to 22 BHN will shoot great while a 50-50 at 18 will not unless it has a GC. It is still the alloy and BHN by itself means nothing.
Soft can and has been shot for sure but you face skid and slump. It is way too hard for me to work with.
I find the accuracy point and even a fast powder like Unique or 231 shot boolits better at 28 to 30 BHN.
BHN of 8 to 9 can even have lead squirt from the gap. Soft wad cutters in a .38 will lead the cylinder front and frame. It is silly putty slammed with thousands of pounds.
It is squirt, slump, skid and leading you need to avoid. They will go "BANG" like anything you stick in your gun.
Some shoot a "J" word at high velocity very well, then think pure lead will do the same---it is time to get real!
It is true I shoot lead better then jacketed but it sure is not 8 to 9 BHN.
You can shoot softer from a rifle then from a revolver.

[runfiverun]

that's not gonna happen.

what it does show it the attention to detail needed when looking for high performance.
don't matter if it's with cast boolits,home made jaxketed bullets,cars,airplanes....

your 38+p loads are gonna fall somewhere in between.
if you were going to use a hollowpoint and expect expansion your answer would lie in the middle where a soft alloy and a gas check would be correct.
what do you expect the boolit to do when it gets to the target???
penetrate?
how much,and through what...
that's where design,weight,velocity,and alloy make-up [and manipulation] come into play.
simple right?
you might have to give accuracy a break to get what you want "on target"

[hd09]

I had heard Elmer Keith liked 20/1 pure lead /tin

[44man]

I had heard Elmer Keith liked 20/1 pure lead /tin
Have you tried it?

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

So I guess I'll work up water dropped and air cooled loads, and see what happens. I enjoy experimenting, but I HATE having to scrub lead out of a barrel.

[dougader]

I have used the Lyman 358429 SWC to take down the 200 yard/meter rams in handgun silhouette matches. No gas check on this bullet, and very accurate even at distance.

[Raven_Darkcloud]

I use 20:1 (water dropped) for my pistols and love it for target shooting. As for bhn I don't have a clue what they are at just size to +2.

[MtGun44]

LOL! "20:1 WD" WD does NOTHING to 20:1 except cool it down. Without antimony and some
arsenic, WD does not change hardness. Besides that, Keith recommended 16:1 not 20:1.

I agree with William. I use std AC wwts normally, about 11-14 BHN without GCs, zero leading, ever.
I have done loads with 8 BHN range scrap at full .357 Mag power with no GC (358429, RCBS 38-150-WC
and Lee 357 158 RF) with excellent accy and no leading. These are mostly with 16+ gr of H110.

Good designs, good lube (NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue, mostly) and good loads - PROPERLY FITTED
to the gun and no problems.

I have tested WD in several .44 Mags and never saw any improvement in accy, never had leading
to begin with, didn't change, often the WD shoot worse than AC, so I have abandoned it
entirely for pistol loads. Fit, design, lube and powder choice - hardness is a minor player.

Bill

[ROCKET]

I'm using 358429 with 12.3 gr acc#9 no gc.
Excellent accuracy in all my 357s

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

I agree with William. I use std AC wwts normally, about 11-14 BHN without GCs, zero leading, ever.


Thanks, that's 2 votes for air cooled.

Well this load is going to be an experiment for me, again, I'll be using the 358432 160 grain wadcutter, and I only want to push it to magnum velocities out of curiosity, so I'll tinker with different powders and charges and see where I get. It's going to be fired from my Ruger BH, which I shoot weekly (or more) and am very familiar with casting for.

[44man]

We need to define accuracy first. I get a little twisted with anything over 3/4" at 50 meters.
Funny things have gone on with testing that I can't explain. I played with air cooled WW boolits with a GC in my .44. I had fliers after a few shots in a ragged hole. I annealed the checks and accuracy improved. Sounds stupid but I kept repeating it over and over.
Water dropped does not need the checks annealed.
Air cooled and softer alloys always gave me fliers and there was no leading, I ignore the leading stuff. It is only accuracy.
All of my revolver calibers do the exact same thing, fliers with soft and no groups at all with a 50-50 PB. To go to 16 to 1 in my hunting guns is not in the cards.
Leading prevention has never been a problem and is what all seem to look for above accuracy. Your worst loads may not lead at all and that does NOT mean the gun will shoot. Leading is a mean thing but it still comes down to poor alloy and lube choice, Fit will not cure it.
WAY too much is attributed to "FIT" and even though it is a good thing, it is still not a cure all.
You really need to experiment with many tests to see what works best. I have been at it since the early 50's with revolvers and since 1956 with the .44 and still will not be specific.
Never load 500 rounds and go blast away, even 5 loads with changes will teach you something.
Is it true that I shoot the smallest revolver groups ever? I have no idea and don't care one way or the other. It is what you expect and how much you are willing to try things out of the box.

[fecmech]

We need to define accuracy first.
I agree, that's important and so is the number of shots in a group and the average of a number of groups. This thread is about 358429 and I have shot this bullet a lot over the years and my experience is as follows. I can get it to average less than 2"@ 50 yds with five 5 shot groups at that range out of a Ruger GP. Those bullets were cast of a 50/50 WW/lino mix and run just under 1300 fps. The same load with ACWW bullets averaged 3.5" for 5 groups which IMO is still not too shabby at 50 yds considering plain base bullet and roughly 35KPSI. From bullets that I have recovered fired into snow I've found that the nose on the ACWW 358429 tends to slump somewhat from acceleration ??and I believe that is the cause of the decrease in accuracy. The recovered WW/lino bullets show no nose slump.
In my rifles the same loads run a little over 1600 fps and average 3-4 moa@100yds and for some reason ACWW works as well as the 50/50 mix. Maybe not having to make the jump from cylinder to forcing cone allows the softer bullet to do better in the rifle. At any rate that's my story and I'm stickin to it!

[mdi]

FWIW; My only addition to this thread is my single OOPS! while reloadng .357 Mag. I mis-read (?) data in one of my manuals and loaded some 160 gr. LSWC cast from wheel weight alloy air cooled, sized to fit cylinder throats, on top of an overload of True Blue, 2.0 gr. over max. I shot a cylinder full (6) from my 4" Taurus, with no noticable "extra" recoil or muzzle blast, and average accuracy. But it became obvious the load was way too hot when I opened the cylinder and two primers fell out. I had to use my mallet to get the cases out of the cylinder and I thought I had ruined my gun. When inspecting the gun I noticed no lead in the barrel! I cleaned the gun as usual and closely inspected the cylinder, frame and barrel for cracks, buldges, etc. and found none. I figgered my eyes weren't good enough to see any high speed lead deposits so I ran my Lewis Lead Remover through the barrel; no lead on the tool, no lead visible in the bbl. So, I believe that a properly fitted, air cooled, wheel weight alloy can be driven to well over 1200 fps in a revolver with no leading! That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! :mrgreen:

[44man]

I agree, that's important and so is the number of shots in a group and the average of a number of groups. This thread is about 358429 and I have shot this bullet a lot over the years and my experience is as follows. I can get it to average less than 2"@ 50 yds with five 5 shot groups at that range out of a Ruger GP. Those bullets were cast of a 50/50 WW/lino mix and run just under 1300 fps. The same load with ACWW bullets averaged 3.5" for 5 groups which IMO is still not too shabby at 50 yds considering plain base bullet and roughly 35KPSI. From bullets that I have recovered fired into snow I've found that the nose on the ACWW 358429 tends to slump somewhat from acceleration ??and I believe that is the cause of the decrease in accuracy. The recovered WW/lino bullets show no nose slump.
In my rifles the same loads run a little over 1600 fps and average 3-4 moa@100yds and for some reason ACWW works as well as the 50/50 mix. Maybe not having to make the jump from cylinder to forcing cone allows the softer bullet to do better in the rifle. At any rate that's my story and I'm stickin to it!
Much is true and I see you experiment and that is what all of us need to do.
Now the .357 can be unreal for accuracy but over the years I have found them very hard from gun to gun. I once said the .357 was easy but have changed my thinking a lot and consider the larger bores easier. I just don't know why???? Is it the brass and tension on the boolit?
I no longer own a .357 and just work with my friends guns that will make me pull the few strands of hair left. It drives me nuts how a tiny change can turn the gun into a shotgun.
We had a .357 here that we tried every single bullet and boolit out of, over 200 different loads and never got it to shoot. Expensive revolver with 3 barrel changes and a cylinder change.
Then an old S&W will shoot 1" targets at 100 yards.

[blackthorn]

Just a point of clarification. In thread #22, fecmech has stated that this thread is about 358429, BUT the OP asked for assistance with an Ideal 358432 WC. While I agree this thread has apparently drifted more to discussing the merits of 358429, it did not start out that way and I wonder if a lot of this discussion is helping with the OP’s original request?

[fredj338]

Pushing a solid, hard lead bullet fast isn't going to increase it's terminal performance much IMO. It's a solid, the bullet isn't going to do a lot of work other than penetrating thru it's target. I don't think you gain anything more by pushing them above 1100fps, the bullet will just exit the target sooner. AC COWW would be my choice. If you want some deformation, go to 50/50 lead/COWW. At 1100fps, the bullet will flatten some, increasing frontal area & terminal peformance. Better still, a LSWHP would be far better @ the same or higher vel.

[44man]

Just a point of clarification. In thread #22, fecmech has stated that this thread is about 358429, BUT the OP asked for assistance with an Ideal 358432 WC. While I agree this thread has apparently drifted more to discussing the merits of 358429, it did not start out that way and I wonder if a lot of this discussion is helping with the OP’s original request?
Yes, all the same. The boolit can be different yet some work can make them shoot. The thing is to not get in a rut and keep doing the same things over and over.

[fecmech]

Just a point of clarification. In thread #22, fecmech has stated that this thread is about 358429, BUT the OP asked for assistance with an Ideal 358432 WC.
Whoops! That's what happens when you read fast. I saw 160 gr and then thought I saw SWC not WC. I'm the culprit that started the thread drift to 358429, sorry about that.