Search for ideas: Reducing smoke in 9mm cast for IDPA use

[joe i]

I shoot a Beretta 92 in SSP in IDPA. Like most Berettas, the bore slugs at .3575. I've tried Penn Bullets' 124 gr RNBB ordered in .358 and Missouri's 147 gr TCBB boolits, standard .356 dia. I've been using W231 powder to push these to just past the power factor of 125,000, so I was getting 1050 fps from the 124 gr and 900 fps from the 147 gr.

With both of these boolits at the velocities listed I was getting massive leading, and the 147's were keyholing occasionally although still doing the job accuracy-wise (only have to hit an 8" circle). At the time I wasn't a caster and after a low-light stage was ruined for me by the smoke screen these emitted, I swore off of cast for IDPA from then on.

These days, I've been ordering some tooling so I can cast my own in some other calibers. I've been thinking about how nice it would be to cast for 9mm -- it would save SO much money. The biggest kicker is the smoke. It doesn't seem like much until you're in a low-light stage, or the wind is blowing it in your face as you're pulling the trigger as fast as you can.

Does anybody have any suggestions on what can be done? I think some of the solution is to cast my own so that I have alloy and hardness control. Powder and lube choice are other factors, although with the shortage the 231 I already have is probably going to be the powder I have to use.

I haven't ordered molds and am open to suggestions on them. The Beretta has fed any design I've put in a case, and my max OAL is right at SAAMI max for the 9mm. In general, I like a flat point better as it cuts a bigger hole in the paper, making hits easier to see. I saw where Ranch Dog made some 9mm molds that used gas checks, and I was wondering if anybody using them could comment on their effect on smoke and leading.

Anything you can offer from theory to practical application would be great. I've got 4 or 500 lbs of wheel weights here, with more promised. A few other tools I inherited from my grandfather, too. I have ZERO experience casting my own, and nobody around to teach me. Thanks again for any info you can offer.

-Joe

[randyrat]

Heck yes there is something that can be done..When your ready I'll send you a sample of TAC#1 and/or TAC#2 FREE. With 95% of powders/loads it is VERY low smoke. You would be surprised.

[leadman]

There is a thread in the boolit lube section on powder coating cast boolits. It is fairly easy ro do and from what I have fired so about the same smoke as a jacketed round. I've shot a 220gr boolit with and without gas checks to over 1,300 fps in my 41 mag and a 177gr in my 30-06 to over 1,600 fps.

[fredj338]

Yeah, change powders & bullet lubes. Randy's is pretty good, but W231 seems to be more smokey than say WST, what I use w/ my cast. Powders like TG & BE are terrible for lead bullets & smoke, regardless of lube.

[randyrat]

Your also going to need to read some on loading 9mm and cast. Successful 9 mm bullet casters/loaders use a 38 SW expander button to expand the brass a bit more so the brass does not swage the boolit down when seating lead boolits. You may know about this already, if not, it is worth it to save yourself a good migraine and a bunch of hair pulling.

[turmech]

Heck yes there is something that can be done..When your ready I'll send you a sample of TAC#1 and/or TAC#2 FREE. With 95% of powders/loads it is VERY low smoke. You would be surprised.

Randys lube works good with very low smoke

[jdgabbard]

Your also going to need to read some on loading 9mm and cast. Successful 9 mm bullet casters/loaders use a 38 SW expander button to expand the brass a bit more so the brass does not swage the boolit down when seating lead boolits. You may know about this already, if not, it is worth it to save yourself a good migraine and a bunch of hair pulling.

I had not heard of this, but it makes sense. Although I haven't had a problem in my 9mms....

[Jailer]

Your also going to need to read some on loading 9mm and cast. Successful 9 mm bullet casters/loaders use a 38 SW expander button to expand the brass a bit more so the brass does not swage the boolit down when seating lead boolits. You may know about this already, if not, it is worth it to save yourself a good migraine and a bunch of hair pulling.


I had not heard of this, but it makes sense. Although I haven't had a problem in my 9mms....

;)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod

[jdgabbard]

Still, I haven't had any problems... As long as I live my barrel well after cleaning it. Once it's seasoned, I have zero leading. Most of the time in my 9mms all I have to do is wipe off the carbon, lightly oil the necessary parts, put it together, and it's ready to shoot again.

[captaint]

joe i - Smokey conditions usually is a combination of lube and powder. As previously stated, some powders are smokier than others. I think Alox based lubes also tend to smoke more too.
I don't think you will NEED gas checks, per se. It does sound like you need bigger (diameter wise) boolits.
If I were you, I would start with .358. As long as they chamber OK, start there. I'm not sure you'll
need the .358 expander, though. I don't use one, and I am not swaging my boolits down. I do use straight
WW, air cooled for my alloy. Again, you might want to seat a boolit in a dummy cartridge and then pull
the boolit and measure with mic's. If diameter is still OK, you're good to go in that department.
Might try Red Dot for powder. I use my share of that in my 9mm's and I don't get much smoke at all.
Hope this helps. Mike

[wallenba]

Carnuba Red and Clays worked real well in my 38 SPL. I also switched to a gas checked boolit. Might not be an option with 9mm though.

[captaint]

I did try some of the plain base gas checks on my Lee 120 gr boolits and they worked great. My Lee 356-120TC were coming out of the mold a little small. Mike

[runfiverun]

231 and magma's lube smokes.
i used to shoot cowboy action with this combination just cause i liked the poof of smoke.
some powders smoke with jaxketed bullets too.
switch to clays

[davidalyn]

Winchester Super Target (WST) and VV320 are two of the go to powders for USPSA shooters shooting cast bullets. Either of these powders seem to produce the least amount of smoke when combined with cast bullets and lube. WST is about 1/2 the cost of VV320. I may have about 24 lbs of WST under my loading bench.

[joe i]

Thanks for the replies so far. The only pistol powder I own is W231, so I have no experience with Clays, Red Dot, or WST, although I know of some guys using VV N320. Can somebody compare these powders with 231 -- what's the recoil impulse like? Besides the smoke issue, do they leave the pistol itself cleaner also? How do they meter in a Dillon measure?

As far as expanding goes, I was running a Lyman Multi-Expand set with the .38 Spl/.357 setup to bell the cases enough for the .358 Penn boolits. I was using this setup with a Lyman 55 mounted on top of my Rock Chucker. Once I got serious about IDPA, I bought a Dillon 650. At the same time, I started loading the Missouri Cast .356 dia because I was out of the Penn 124's. The Dillon powder funnel worked fine for the Missouri's with no swaging, but I never got a chance to try it with larger dia boolits.

Is there a source for oversized 9mm Dillon powder funnels?

Mold recommendations, if you have them, would be great also.

Thanks again for your help.

-Joe

[Michael J. Spangler]

Subscribed. Good info here.

[Thompsoncustom]

Powders and bullets change the felt recoil a lot. A heavy bullet with a fast burning powder yields a very low perceived recoil. I think heavy bullet's with faster powder also seem to run cleaning most of the time I'm running a 173gr SWC 9mm with AA2 and burn 98% of the powder. You can also use magnum primers to help burn things a little more but they have been linked to breech face erosion in minor loads so I would say if you are going to use a mag primer use a fast enough powder and a heavy enough bullet to keep your pressure around 35k. Another problem you might run into is data for loads like this so something like quickload and a chrono can be very helpful.

Here's a link for the different burn rates of powders.
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

[Raven_Darkcloud]

Use a 38/357 mold and size to 2 thou over bore. lee 358-125-rf drops a 130grn rfn at .362

[runfiverun]

titegroup is supersimilar in metering and ,well,, everything else to 231 but burns a bit cleaner. [it just doesn't do well if you squeeze it into a small space]
the dillons handle flake powders pretty well,even unique is real consistent in mine.

[Lizard333]

I'm using carnuba red and WST and its not bad at all. I shoot outdoors. But my dad shoots this in an outdoor range with his 40 cal.

[fredj338]

WST has a soft recoil impulse, burns clean & as little smoke as I can get w/ lead bullets. I am sure VV320 works as well or maybe slightly better, but really, most shooters just can't take advantage of any small upside to a powder that is twice as expensive.