So who's packing cast boolits in their daily carry gun?

[7Acres]

A lot of people think people reload cast boolits just because it's cheap. Some even consider cast to be inferior to jaxketed. We know this not necessarily the case and a skilled boolit master can get better performance out of cast than j-words.

So who here is so confident in your cast boolits (and your reloading skills) that your daily carry gun(s) is loaded with your own cast reloads? Please include details about why you are convinced your cast reloads are more reliable and/or will perform better than commercially available jaxketed self-defense ammo. Mold, lube, case, powder & charge you use, etc. would be fascinating to learn about too. I look forward to learning a lot from your responses.

[Dan Cash]

Any thing I tote except a .380 pistol has my bullets in it, rifle or pistol. That includes .30 Mauser and a bunch of .30 rifle cartridges, .35 Rem and .38, .41, .44 and .45 auto and Colt. Why? 1. I won't spend the money for something that does not perform significantly better than what I make. 2. See reason one.

[JIMinPHX]

I've carried cast many times.

[6bg6ga]

I carry 230gr round nose in my 45acp

[357maximum]

I normally carry an old cosmetically challenged Smith model 36 ...I.W.B most the time. It is stoked with somewhat soft 358156 that have minimal HP's, they sit on top of a 2400 charge that would make alot of the old gunwriters and gurus very happy. If I could not change badguys mind with 5 of them.....I should not have tried to change his mind in the first place. It matters not whether they are wrapped in copper cladding or not....I do not see an issue at self defense ranges what you put in the gun cast/jacketed.....use what you have confidence in and what works. Your query is a moot point in my eyes.

[Frozone]

I shoot my cast in everything Except what I carry.
I carry what the local LEOs carry (or as close as I can get).
I do have cast equivalent loads (weight/speed) that I practice with.

But I keep a mag full +1 for the chamber of factory made exclusively for carry.

Way I look at it is, IF I ever need to use the thing, why give a DA even one extra question to ask.

[1845greyhounds]

My CCDW is in-process. I will likely carry a Springfield XD-S in 45 acp with a cast 200 or 230 HP boolit. Shooting cast will allow me to tailor the boolit to the lower velocity I'll get from the XD-S. Carrying reloads, in general, will allow me to shoot more of my specific carry ammo through that gun, so I'll be that much more confident and competent with the combination. It will also allow me to rotate my carry ammo frequently without it otherwise costing a lot (compared to commercial ammo). As for concern that carrying reloads may be a legal black eye, I'm of the mind that as long as a firearm's use is justified, it doesn't matter. If the firearm's use was NOT justified, then you're F***** any way.

[waksupi]

I use the BD45 in my daily carry guns. I don't trust jacketed bullets, and sure wouldn't trust a hollow point! I'm convinced cast is better, because I have killed lots and lots of stuff with cast. Jacketed bullets are just wannabe's.

[dragon813gt]

While I do hunt with them. I don't use them for SD rounds. My reloads with XTPs in my 9mm perform better. It's one less variable that I have to worry about. And when it comes to SD I want every advantage I can get.

[jmort]

Using cast bullets just makes sense as noted.

[jmort]

I have had the don't use reloads argument too many times. What we know for a fact, is that no one, ever, in the history of the United States, has been convicted of a crime for using reloads for self-defense. What we also know for a fact, is that a jury convicted a man in a self-defense shooting, and relied on evidence that the defendant carried a 10mm which was too "powerful," and had lots of guns and ammo, and took advanced firearms training. So if we know that certain evidence has been used to convict, why carry a 10mm, or have lots of guns and ammo, or get advanced firearms training? If you are scared of using reloads, the advice of using exactly what your local LEOs use and changing when they change makes sense. For me, I'll take a handloaded cast bullet with a large meplat that makes two holes, one in and one out, every time. I like serious straight-line penetration.

[7Acres]

Waksupi! I've had the same thought. Jacketed SD bullets with multi-sided expanding petals seems complex. Your signature explains my sentiment exactly. Why fool with complex mass-manufactured copper jacketed hollow point expanding petal SD ammo... when simple lead will always reliably mushroom and lose no mass while transferring its energy to the threat?

[randyrat]

I've been warned against carrying anything hand made for SD by people that have a lot more "lawering up" than i do. Personally I don't understand how using my fine cast boolits for SD would matter even one baked bean. I ponied up and bought a box of factory HP for my SD gun. I didn't say, i like the idea one bit.

[Kansas Ed]

When I took my CCH class in order to get my license, our instructor insisted on the use of HP ammo. His logic was that if overpenetration ever hurt a bystander the liability would be ugly. He even told us that if we ever had to defend our actions, that the DA would likely call him to testify, and if we used other than HP he would state that it was against his recommendations.

Agree or disagree, is really a moot point in my case now. It's water under the bridge and I am saddled with my choice of instructor. What has happened has happened, and I'm stuck with conventional JHP ammo.

Ed

[Bullshop]

Nothing but! My current cary gun is a Colt police posative special in 32/20. It is loaded with the 115gn Lyman fn.
My companion hide out gun is a Bond Arms Texas Defender with one barrel loaded with a 410 gauge #4 shot and the other barrel loaded with a 460 S&W case with a tri ball load. Three 45 holes should drop oil pressure perty quick.

[40Super]

I don't carry daily, but my truck gun and any gun that I keep loaded at home have mostly my cast in them. I do have a bunch of plated loads also the look like factory rounds that are in some mags for those guns, if I have to use them I won't tell them they are reloads. I'm not to worried about being charged for something because I used my own loads, it hasn't happened yet in the states so why worry?
I want my boolits to expand greatly and not go through. The one thing that I don't want is to hit anybody behind the BG.

[jmort]

"...our instructor insisted on the use of HP ammo. His logic was that if overpenetration ever hurt a bystander the liability would be ugly."

One of my favorite canards. For sure, this is a line of fire issue. If you miss, what is the difference? You are likely to miss. LEO hit rates are around 33% or less. I would rather take a hit on a through and through shot than a miss. People are made to be scared by this "logic." Your instructor would be best advised to tell you all to shoot straight and know your line of fire. Most of this is a line of fire issue, plain and simple.

[Kansas Ed]

Note that he said "overpenetration". An errant and missed shot is another situation entirely.

One other thing to consider here, how many people have been financially ruined defending themselves from an overzealous DA? You may be right, and totally within the law, but defending yourself in court may cost you your financial freedom and future, even if the jury finds in your favor.

Ed

[warboar_21]

I spoke with a prominent lawyer where I live. He has represented a few defensive shootings. His recommendation was to use factory made ammo and if possible use what local law enforcement use or close to it. This is also something that my CCW instructor said was a good idea. I have followed this advice.

[jmort]

"...how many people have been financially ruined defending themselves from an overzealous DA?"

No one that I know of for merely using reloads for self-defense. Unfortunately for Mr. Fish, his 10mm, and large amount of guns and ammo, advanced firearms training, and get this - use of hollowpoints, all bit him in the **** big time and left him in a enormous financial hole. Warboar, your attorney's advice ignores all common sense, i.e. that no one, ever, in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime for using handloads in a self-defense shooting. I respectfully disagree.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

[40Super]

For the most part, you will be financially ruined no matter what ammo used, depending on local "ways". If any suits are filed ( civil usually), they will be filed reguardless, doesn't matter if you used factory stuff.

[Bigslug]

I lean toward the "why give the other guy an opening to exploit in court" side of the argument, though the more I study the matter, the more I prefer the notion of a WFN. At the end of the day though, if you put it in the right place, and it penetrates to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsie Pop, it doesn't matter much what you shot.

The modern duty hollowpoint is some darned effective stuff, but if you prefer the notion of a flat-point, non-expanding slug, there are plenty of factory, cast or jacketed, truncated cone and SWC loads out there, which pretty much give you what you want while getting around the perceived pitfalls of packing handloads.

[warboar_21]

"...how many people have been financially ruined defending themselves from an overzealous DA?"

No one that I know of for merely using reloads for self-defense. Unfortunately for Mr. Fish, his 10mm, and large amount of guns and ammo, advanced firearms training, and get this - use of hollowpoints, all bit him in the **** big time and left him in a enormous financial hole. Warboar, your attorney's advice ignores all common sense, i.e. that no one, ever, in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime for using handloads in a self-defense shooting. I respectfully disagree.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

I'm not going to be the one where they try it out. If someone else wants to more power to them. With the cast bullets I have shot, all of them have penetrated more than any SD ammo I have used. I would be a little wary of a situation where a bullet fully penetrates the BG and then hits someone else. This could be reduced by using a soft lead HP but then at that point why not use a JHP?

[Muddydogs]

While I don't carry cast I do carry hand loaded Speer Gold Dot in my .40.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Only cast wadcutters for carry, and on the bedside, loaded to full potential, cast soft, and the .357s are hollow pointed to boot, the .38s and .45Colts just plain old, full meplat, fairly soft, hard hitting, deep penetrating, big hole making wadcutters. My favorite in 35 cal is 358091 in the gun and 358087 (seated flush) for the speed loader (ammo keeper) in my pocket. The .45 cal wadcutter is NOE 454250.

I don't shoot factory cause I shoot alot. Also I've never seen full throttle soft wadcutters from factory.....and I take great care and extreme QA/QC in my SD loads....factory?????maybe its a machine run by an exburgerflipper who's just one more screwup from yet another trip to the unemployment line.

I'm forturnate to live in Texas where if I have to use "up to and including deadly force" it doesn't matter how I generate that force be it factory golf club, old Ford pickup or handloads, and if I'm justified I can't be sued by the dead perps peeps in civil court. To keep from shooting someone I shouldn't is up to me and the statutes of the State that hold me liable for any "errors"....read "shoot someone that's innocent and you're guilty as any other murderer".

[1845greyhounds]

All this discussion about over penetrating projectiles ignores the basic fact that you are responsible for not wantonly endangering any innocents by pointing a gun at them. While it may not always be possible, all possible effort should be made to avoid engaging a threat with innocents in the line of fire. An example of doing it right is the CCW carrier who choose not to engage the Oregon mall shooter in Dec 2012

http://minutemennews.com/2012/12/oregon-mall-shooting-brave-citizen-with-concealed-carry-may-have-saved-lives/

[Bullshop]

Head shots retard penitration.

[ctious]

I carry cast. It's the exact same loads and boolits I use to hunt deer here in Wisconsin. The way I figure is that if it drops deer on the spot it will drop a bad guy. Also it is accurate out to 100 yards. So I know I can hit what I want when needed. It's my most confident load. Honestly I don't trust factory ammo. It's made on assembly lines. Too much chance for a squib to trust my life too.

It's the mihec 10mm hollow point from the group buy here.

[429421Cowboy]

i carry cast. It's the exact same loads and boolits i use to hunt deer here in wisconsin. The way i figure is that if it drops deer on the spot it will drop a bad guy. Also it is accurate out to 100 yards. So i know i can hit what i want when needed. It's my most confident load. Honestly i don't trust factory ammo. It's made on assembly lines. Too much chance for a squib to trust my life too.


It's the mihec 10mm hollow point from the group buy here.

good post^^^^:goodpost:

Count me in the same boat! I carry a 240 SWC over 9.5 gr of Unique daily in my Super Blackhawk .44 mag because at work a badguy is a secondary concern over critters or even having to kill a cow, i don't want another Skeeter moment where my loads don't have the poop to do the job. If i have it in an urban area i will have it loaded with .44 spl loaded to about .45 acp levels with the same 240 swc to not have as bad of over-penetration. My actual carry gun is a Kahr PM9 which is not exactly a great cast gun (polygonal rifling included!) so i do carry "high tech" JHPs in it, because the research has been done and proven to be at least close to optimal performance to what you'll run into. If i carried a snub .38/.357 would i be packing boolits? You bet your behind i would be!

[Grendel99]

I do not carry home cast or reloads in my carry guns. Not that there is anything wrong with it. When I had a J-frame I carried either Buffalo Bore 158gr cast SWC-HP +P or Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P Short Barrel. I prefer jacketed self-defense factory loads and trust them fully. I think the replies that state they don't trust them because a moron is working the line is just, well, dumb. These loads (Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hyrda-Shok & HST, Hornady XTP, Critical Defense, & Critical Duty, Winchester Ranger & Supreme Bonded among a few) are rigorously tested and held to very high quality standards. That's why police use and trust them. They aren't made by some bubba in the back of his garage with a little press. When have you ever heard of a recent police shoot-out where they had duds? Factory hollow points in defense ammo are like-wise tested. The expand reliably, every time, through thick or thin clothing but will not over-penetrate a human torso.

You are legally responsible for every bullet that leaves your muzzle. I would never want to use anything like a FMJ or something that will over-penetrate. Especially in a city or at home, where the bullet could hurt a loved one or an innocent bystander. Yes, you might (or probably) will miss some, but that doesn't give you the right to disregard over-penetration with your choice of bullet. I for one, will only use a good factory load for self-defense. God forbid if I ever have to use my gun to defend myself, but if it happens, I want to make sure I give the prosecution as few things as I can to use against me. While no one has been convicted for using reloads, that doesn't mean they can't still ruin you in court, charge you with it, or take everything you have in civil court.

[SlowSmokeN]

I use what I cast. If I have to use it I am protected under stand your ground. I know anyone can sue, but if I am justified under stand your ground ammo doesn't matter. I carry a Springfield EMP 9mm with 124 grain boolit, using 4g Unique. Nothing special but something I find very accurate.

Bottom line make sure whatever you do you are covered under the law.

[BruceB]

I don't want Grendel99 to feel lonesome.

I carry ONLY high-quality factory JHP ammunition for concealed-carry purposes in "social" surroundings. Cast bullets are frequently carried afield, and I trust my own loads implicitly.This subject is FREQUENTLY raised on Internet boards, and although I have often chimed in there are two main truths which I have derived from this endless dead-horse-beating:

1. I have never changed anyone's mind, and

2. Nobody has ever changed mine.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good sense in what Bruce posted, and in some of what was posted previously.

I'll qualify what follows with a short blurb about where I did the work that caused the opinions & conclusions to form--Riverside County Sheriff's Department in Toon Town (California), in which State no limit exists on the preposterousness of lawyer claims and statements. That said, in the many shootings and homicides I investigated or assisted with, NOT ONCE did the subject of "reloaded ammo vs. factory loads" EVER get discussed at any time among investigators or prosecutors. Total non-issue, from the criminal standpoint. Civilly, lawyers threaten with multi-zillion dollar lawsuits......but settle for between $5K-$15K, pronounce "justice served", pocket a couple Range Rover payments and go find another ambulance to chase. Homie's heirs and assigns get a big-screen TV and 22s on the hood barge, and life goes on.

I carry my old agency's issue ammo because 1) it works 2) it's required and 3) I like keeping my CWP. I don't carry a 9mm because the required ammo is that excreble FBI-pimped weak-sistered 147 JHP sub-sonic sub-effective sub-lethal 38 S&W-equivalent debris. 357 Magnum/125 Federal JHP--40 S&W/180 SXT--45 ACP/230 SXT. The End.

[Boyscout]

I use commericail JHP's in my carry gun. Massad Ayood said in his book In the Gravest Extreme that do do anything else would invite civil lawsuits that could destroy you. Does anyone remember what happened to Bernard Goetz when he admitted that he thought through many senarios and was prepared for what happened? He was pictured as a cold blooded killer who premeditated the murder of innocent young men who were only asking for some spare change.

[MikeS]

I carry my own reloads using a BD45 like boolit, the AM45-250A boolit. I think having a large meplat will do more damage to a bad guy than a hollowpoint when shot from a 45ACP with a 4" barrel. The way I figure it, I cast them from range scrap, as I do most of my boolits, so IF the question of reloads were ever brought up I can explain that I cast for reasons of ammo price, and can show several different boolits I cast, and because a wide flat nose looks similar to lots of the other boolits I cast (to those that don't really know much about casting boolits), and the fact that I don't load them hot, but rather keep my loads in the mid range (which is still plenty of power to stop a bad guy), I think using the excuse of being cheap (or thrifty) would hold up just fine IF it were ever asked.

Frankly, if I ever have to defend myself with deadly force, I figure that right or wrong, I'll still end up getting a ride down town until they either decide that it was a valid SD situation and release me, or decide otherwise and invite me to a prolonged state sponsored vacation, and either way, exactly what ammo I used will be the least of my problems! :(

[Beerd]

.............. exactly what ammo I used will be the least of my problems! :(

amen to that.
..

[rintinglen]

In the first publicized shooting incident that the Los Angeles Sheriff's department had with their then new Beretta 92's, an over penetrating bullet struck and killed a pregnant woman, resulting in a huge financial payout. There was substantial talk of turning in the "over powerful" new guns and going back to the old revolvers as a result.

In another case, involving a LAPD officer, the city was sued by a victim hit by a 38 round nosed bullet that had gone through a felon. You can not argue with the advice to use what the cops use. Harold Fish not withstanding, while you are unlikely to be criminally charged and convicted as a result of an accidental shooting resulting from an overly-penetrative round, you can bet your bippy that if any lawyer worth his salt smells anything in your wallet, you'll get to meet them in court. Having "controlled expansion" loads just like the ones the police carry in your gun will reduce the number of red herrings opposing counsel can bring up. Always remember, you are being tried before a jury made up of people that were not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Do you want to risk your future on their "common sense?"

[9.3X62AL]

Frankly, if I ever have to defend myself with deadly force, I figure that right or wrong, I'll still end up getting a ride down town until they either decide that it was a valid SD situation and release me, or decide otherwise and invite me to a prolonged state sponsored vacation, and either way, exactly what ammo I used will be the least of my problems! :(

More good sense, right there. I would add a third "constant" to this thread type to the 2 constants BruceB listed--that being the caveats trumpeted by the Grand Exalted Almighty Omnipotent Massad Ayoob, the part-time officer in a backwater New England hamlet that has parlayed his "experience" into courtroom expertise and literary adulation. He is a well-read dilettante, and little more. Be cautious in applying his "lessons" to the real world.

[375RUGER]

"...how many people have been financially ruined defending themselves from an overzealous DA?"

No one that I know of for merely using reloads for self-defense. Unfortunately for Mr. Fish, his 10mm, and large amount of guns and ammo, advanced firearms training, and get this - use of hollowpoints, all bit him in the **** big time and left him in a enormous financial hole. Warboar, your attorney's advice ignores all common sense, i.e. that no one, ever, in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime for using handloads in a self-defense shooting. I respectfully disagree.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

I did a search and didn't find on this page where he used handloads or reloads. Please point to it.

[jmort]

He used factory 10mm hollow points.

[jmort]

"Grand Exalted Almighty Omnipotent Massad Ayoob"

Completely agree. He is a sacred cow. Dare to disagree with him on some boards and the drones drone on and on. This is interesting perspective on Ayoob

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm

[mpmarty]

60664

[Love Life]

I carry my cast bullets in my carry guns. All cast of 20:1 alloy.

Model 28: 358429 over 5.4 gr unique in 38 special brass or NOE 360477 HP loaded over 5.5 gr unique in 38 special brass
Glock 26: RCBS 124-RN-GC loaded over a STIFF charge of HP-38
Ruger black hawk flat top 45 colt: Miha RCBS 270-SAA clone over a stiff charge of Unique

Soft alloy squishes (expands if you want to get fancy with it) and they look pretty. The whole hollow point argument is lost on me because people tend to knock off their stupid stuff when you poke high velocity holes in them.

DISCLAIMER

I have read Ayoob's thoughts on the possible (imagined) legal issues of carrying reloads, and have decided to ignore them.

DISCLAIMER

[huntincowboy]

I've been carrying factory hollow points in my 1911 but I'm starting to wonder what I'm going to do now because of ammo shortages. I'm going to have to start carrying reloads to be able to carry! It kind of worries me with all I've heard about not carrying reloads, but I've got to carry something. I'll be rolling some Lee 250 gr rnfp to try out and see it they're carry worthy.

[joepb]

I have not shot a jacket bullet in any handgun for years..............Joe

[dakotashooter2]

I'll admit to using cast in my CC.
1) I am intimatly familiar with the load because I shoot it often
2) It is an HP which has demonstrated good performance on game without excessive penetration
3) I have had no function issues with it
4) It is a multi use round that may be used for other purposes

A lawyer can twist anything any way he wants to. While it may be advisable to use the same loads as the police a lawyer could even twist that to work against you, portraying you as a vigilante using "police" loads. If they want you bad enough they will "find" a way to attack you. Even if I produced a high performance load for my 38 that out performed commercially available loads there would probably be a .45 auto load that could outperform IT. So should I be punished for a load that is better than the cops .38 but not as good as their .45 autos. The logic of a "special" load is flawed and really irrelivant as there is little chance that it can be proven or disproven that a handload made the victim more or less dead than a factory load..Why is it that "custom" or "hand made" goods are expected to be superior/better than factory made stuff and that is desirable with other products but is looked upon as undesireable in the case of amunition? One has to accept that they will have to deal with legal wrangling no matter what they carry.

Anyone find it strange that we (including the police) are now commonly using bullets (commercial) that now perform and look very similar to the highly berated "cop killer"/"Black Tallons" of a few years back, that the anti gun crowd screamed were so deadly and inhumane. It just shows how fickle the anti gun crowd is.

If you live in Chicago, the west coast of CA, New York, Washington or some of the larger east coast cities some of this stuff might be brought up, but if you live in your average size city it's very unlikely to become an issue.

[fcvan]

When it comes to civil liability a good lawyer will tear you up either way. A good defense attorney should reasonably be able to tear up the prosecution or more likely the plaintiffs attorney. Their attorney will look to exploit any chink in your armor and your attorney should be good enough to defend such attacks.

Before I retired, I generally carried my off duty weapon with factory ammo of the same type used by my agency. It was what I practiced and qualified with as a course of my employment. I carry reloads now because that is what I practice and qualify with. The rounds I carry are reliable, accurate, and below maximum load. I can purchase very expensive ammo that does not perform as well in my weapon which I feel is a greater liability to my personal safety.

I can see where reloads could be an issue, particularly if they are the most maxed out snollygoster loads one could produce. Certainly, carrying a 500 S&W is inviting trouble. Telling the jury I wanted to 'bring enough gun' would not win me any kudos. Carrying rounds designed to function safely and reliably, the same rounds I use for practice and qualification, is better than trying to defend 'I shoot cheap reloads but carry ammo I never shoot.'

Most folks lose sight of the core element of your defense: 1) what was the threat perceived, and 2) what (if any) alternatives were available and/or considered. Each state is different and so there are some limitations as to when deadly force is reasonable. You don't shoot to kill, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to stop the threat. That threat should be fear of great bodily injury and/or death to self or others. Someone stealing your stuff doesn't really cut it because you can replace your stuff. You or your loved ones can't be replaced and a reasonable person would consider deadly force prudent in defending yourself or your loved ones.

[JWFilips]

I have a very hot load behind my "Ranch Dog lead cast 75 grain" .32 cal In all my small concealable .32 auto pistols (5)
If I'm pulling the trigger at "0 hour" It will be very close up and personal ...I'm not going to do battle on the streets at 20 yards ( That's Cops work) I'm out to save my life not everybody else's. Not going to run the news media, LEO & Political gauntlet unless the shot was necessary ! Just my two cents

[Piedmont]

It is in a civil trial that handloads are more likely to be brought up than at a criminal trial. Apparantly there is at least one state where if there was no criminal conviction there can not be a civil trial over the same case.

[357maximum]

If I had to choose one opinion from either Massad Ayood or Gomer Pyle...Gomer would garner my attention.

I carry cast because I could not afford to carry anything else. Them fancy police rounds were simply out of my budget, but I still felt the need to carry and God gave me the right to do so and the State of Michigan agreed with God and God was on my side...I am just glad to be alive at this point.

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and I trust my handloaded cast more than something that was made outside of my eyesight. I have seen too damn many factory rounds not go bang when you needed them to go bang. I have seen squibs from all of the big three, I have yet to have one of my homecast handloads go click or woof in a known good load, experimenting yes one time with a rifle and too slow a powder, but never ever in a confirmed good load. I will take my chances with the DA thank you very much. I think that Castle Docturine would be hard to get around if you ask me.

[6bg6ga]

After replying to this thread earlier and reading the different responses from different members I unloaded my mag in my officers 1911 and dumped the cast bullets in favor of some silvertip hollow point factory rounds from 20+ years ago. The legal ramifications of using cast might be more than what its worth in the event of having to use it.

[bobthenailer]

Although im a avid cast bullet shooter, for self defence i only use the latest Hi Tech ammo or Hi tech componet bullets to reload my ammo. I used to use Speer Gold Dot bullets
For the past few years ive been reloading Barnes TAC all copper HP bullets for all of my CCW guns & house guns.

[9.3X62AL]

I hope I didn't leave a mistaken impression on anyone's mind with my comments. Just because I am required by policy to carry "X-Ammo" in my CCW sideiron DOES NOT equate to a recommendation of that practice. I like the street work done by the issue 40 S&W and 45 ACP rounds that I've seen in E.R.s and autopsy suites, so I agree to carry them. It's good stuff. Frankly, I don't think there's a "bad" 357 Magnum round out there for counter-predator work, 2- or 4-legged. The 9mm needs careful ammo selection, and that FBI Load doesn't make the cut for me unless fired from an SMG. It's wonderful on streetlights, from a suppressed platform--accurate as can be. They don't stop jackrabbits worth a darn, though--and in so failing they don't inspire confidence for center-mass placements. Brain Housing Group Only.

To conclude, I do not wish to steer anyone away from carrying handloads and/or cast boolits for street work if they are comfortable in doing so. In point of fact, it's none of my business. I shared what I use and why, for purposes of discussion only. To make recommendations about relative terminal performance is a fool's errand at best. Which is why someone worth shooting is worth shooting more than once, in most cases.

[EMC45]

I always snicker when I see Masaad Ayoob's name brought up in these discussions.......

[AviatorTroy]

Factory Speer gold dot 230gr in my nightstand .45, Hornady 125gr in my carry .38.

Why?

Because those loads are tested, tested again, and proven! I really enjoy reloading cast for practice loads and 95% of my shooting is with cast, but when it comes down to defending my family, that is certainly no time for experimentation with 150 year old technology.

I might however agree that the cast hollow point 158gr swc in the .38 is every bit as effective as a modern JHP, but even if I were to use those loads I would try to find some factory loaded fodder, like the famous Remington 158gr SWCHP +P

[Jim]

Hypothetical situation:

I've been to the range to shoot my handloads. When done, I reload my sidearm with what I brought, handloads. Between the range and home, I'm confronted with a threat and have to use my sidearm in self defense.

Am I supposed to carry 'factory' loads for my sidearm in case I need it?

I say baloney to Mr. Ayoob. As has been proven, there's never been a case where a judgement was brought against a defendant for using handloads, be they cast boolits or manufactured projectiles, purely because the ammunition was handloaded.

Many times over, people have made multiple attempts to contact Mr. Ayoob to ask about/discuss his assertions. To my knowledge, not once has he ever responded.

[AviatorTroy]

"Grand Exalted Almighty Omnipotent Massad Ayoob"

Completely agree. He is a sacred cow. Dare to disagree with him on some boards and the drones drone on and on. This is interesting perspective on Ayoob

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm

That was an interesting read, but whether Ayoob is always perfect or not doesn't matter too much to me. He has spent his life studying the science and law of self defense and his advice is usually pretty spot on.

Also I detected a sense that the author was simply trying to make a name for himself by discrediting Ayoob.

[MBTcustom]

I want the best performing projectiles in my defense guns. I worry about over-penetration, failed performance, not enough stopping power etc etc etc. That's why I carry cast. They are the best, bar none. You wrap a perfectly good lead boolit in a copper jacket, and all of a sudden, you have to start doing hollow points so that they will expand instead of punching right through (think Indiana Jones on top of the Nazi tank dropping five guys with one shot). But then, they want to break apart, because the petals are too brittle, so you harden them up. Now you gotta push em faster, and round and round we go.

Putting a copper suit on a perfectly good boolit, is like putting a "Sumo wrestler" suit on Jacky Chan and asking him to do all those fancy moves.

Copper jacketed SD bullets are perfect for folks who can't figure out how to operate a reloading press, and dont mind arming themselves with substandard equipment, because of some SD guru thousands of miles away, talking about a hypothetical lawyer another thousand miles further away, told them not to.
I take personal responsibility for my life, and that of my wife, and I load cast lead in all our carry guns.
If my life is in danger, I will not compromise the effectiveness of my loads because some lawyer might try some cock and bull BS about the equipment I used to make it possible to grace the courtroom with my presence. The whole argument is ridiculous and my attorney would have a field day with anybody stupid enough to try it in court.
Just learn how to make good SD ammo and practice enough that your actions will be above reproach, or as close as you can get to it.
I love people. I would never take another human life, unless there was no alternative, and if I ever wind up in court, there will be little doubt that my life was very clearly in danger.
So there may be a penalty for that? Very well. I will still be alive. To not do what you can to defend your own life, is a form of quiet suicide IMHO.
I mean no offense to any of you fine fellers, this is just something I feel very passionate about!
I'll step off my soap box now and let the beatings commence.

[ku4hx]

I'm a Mugwump.

All in-gun magazines are loaded with commercial JHP. All backup/standby magazines are loaded with cast. I do this for two reasons:
1. I choose not to temp fate on a bullet related legal issue either real or imagined.
2. If I ever were to need a followup magazine I don't care which is in it.

[RobsTV]

If the need comes where it must go bang, and be the most accurate to reduce risk to others, I sure as heck am not going to rely on commercial jacketed.

Have only had issues with normal jacketed ammo. It's always fun to bring a friend shooting, and he is using commercial JHP, and sure enough, what he has been counting on as his reliable carry weapon, has had firing, loading or ejection issues. The look on their faces is priceless.

Any FTF, FTE, etc., issues I had were always solved by switching to my own hand loads, and that to me is the most important issue. Reliability. If you can't count on yourself to do it right, why bother. Casting has simply made it better by providing much better accuracy, and boolits that behave on impact the way you want.

[dakotashooter2]

When it comes to civil suits, If I am involved in a shooting (as shooter) I'm going to be the first one to file (mental distress). Two can play that game.........

What has really suprised me in the latest attempt at a gun ban, is no ban on certain types of ammo. That could be coming next. If it does, handloads with cast may be the best and only option................After all "the hollow points only purpose is to kill better, Joe citizen has no need for HPs"...............or so they will claim...........

[RoyEllis]

"Grand Exalted Almighty Omnipotent Massad Ayoob"

Completely agree. He is a sacred cow. Dare to disagree with him on some boards and the drones drone on and on. This is interesting perspective on Ayoob

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm

I've ignored that idgit for years, particularly since all he knows (or thinks he does lol) is anecdotal & 2nd hand at best information.

[rintinglen]

Bear in mind that he is first and foremost a writer. He makes the bulk of his living from the sale of articles and books. Now, he is also a court recognized expert witness on the topics of firearms tactics and shooting dynamics. Not everything he writes is golden. Some of his opinions are not backed up by the cases he cites. But, he has appeared in scores of trials, in a number of states. His perception of what is best in a court room is better than mine. I read what he writes and apply my own experience and give it the sniff test. Sometimes it smells very good, and sometimes it just smells like filler in a 3,000 word article.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own actions.

The fact that some "Expert", real or imagined, told us something will have only limited impact to the legal consequences of our actions. The fact that we read some bozo on the internet discounting some precaution will not only not help, but will harm. I once saw some khaki commando writing that he routinely taped his grip safeties down. Sound reasonable to you? Maybe yes, maybe no. However, if your actions are not consistent with what a jury thinks is reasonable to expect of a person with YOUR level of training and experience, you will be held to account. If you take a self-defense or CCW class from a recognized trainer, you would be well advised to follow what that trainer said. If you don't, you better have a clear, convincing and articulable reason for not doing so. Actions beyond your level of training or in opposition to your training are much harder to defend.

[RoyEllis]

Some good points, and maybe I'm just a contrary old cuss....but if you've never blown a duck call then don't tell me you speak fluent mallard. Ayoob has never had to use a firearm with his life on the line, yet he projects himself to be an expert. I've read a lot of medical books but that doesn't make me an M.D. either. JMHO here.....

[Catshooter]

For my carry loads I do the following:

I inspect each primer for explosive/anvil/overall condition.

I only use once-fired brass. That way I know there is an actual flash hole and it goes all the way to where the powder lives.

I look into each case after powder charging to make sure there is indeed powder, and enough of it.

When the round is done I inspect to make sure the primer went in without any trouble.

I really, really, really want it to go bang. :)


Cat

[Muddydogs]

While I don't have a problem with carrying cast and like I stated I carry hand loaded jacketed rounds I don't understand the above posters trashing jacketed rounds. From my knowledge jacketed bullets have better terminal performance then lead, tend to penetrate things better and function more reliable in autos then lead. If lead is so much better why are Law enforcement, military and everybody else using jacketed bullets? There are numerous tests comparing jacketed bullets, lead bullets, and both combined and to my knowledge none of the tests but lead ahead of jacketed. I could be wrong, thought I was once but discovered that I was only mistaken, and would like to be pointed to the information that shows how much better lead is then jacketed.

I have shot 1000 of both lead and jacketed bullets from numerous handguns and have had very few malfunction due to the bullet, of the few malfunctions I have had the majority have been lead bullets not feeding in a auto pistol, so posts about my or my buddies what not wouldn't feed and shoot this jacketed bullet but will feed and shoot this lead round don't hold much water with me.

[Grendel99]

I agree with Muddydogs, I don't understand the bashing jacketed rounds. Yes, this is a cast boolit forum, but come on. I think both cast and jacketed are awesome. As far as Massad Ayoob, I tend to trust his info more than most things I read on forums [smilie=1: He has been a police officer and expert court witness for decades. I think he knows a thing or two. If I was ever in a self-defense shooting, I would want him in my corner. Does that mean everything he says and does is gospel? Of course not. Speaking of gun writers, Brian Pearce wrote an article in Handloader magazine about using reloads for self-defense. He was in favor of it and it was a very good article.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have read many articles by the infamous Masaad Ayoob. I have found them to be entertaining but I disagree with his handloaded ammo prohibition. I carry a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug with a 2.5" tube loaded with 5 grains of Unique under a 250 Gr soft lead SWCHP. These are from a Mihec mold which I bought on this forum from him.

They are accurate and more than powerful enuf for my needs. With that huge penta pointed Hollow Pointed boolit moving at 850 FPS out of my light gun I am confident that I can place my boolits where they need to be within 3 inches at any range up to 20 yds. Beyond that I probably would not be shooting anyway. I always carry two speedloaders with the same ammo in my right trousers pocket.

I also have a decent HP mold for my .45 ACP and one of those 215 gr boolits of soft lead with a large hollow point loaded over 4.5 gr of Clay's will certainly get the job done.

I have fired thousands of these boolits thru these guns over the years and I have complete confidence in them and in my ability to place them where needed and hopefully on time. They are my carry ammo, practice ammo and competition ammo. I have yet to buy a factory round since 1994 as mine are as good or better than factory fodder and a whole lot cheaper to boot.

I am looking for a decent 9 MM HP mold to feed the six 9's I now find myself possessing. I had an EAA Witness Match Elite, Browning Hi Power and a Hi Point 9MM for some time. I finally sold off the Hi Point and bought a Skky compact for my wife and she loves it. Then I got a Ruger OLD MODEL flatop in .389/357/9MM with the extra cylinder. Recently I bought a pair of Sig Sauer SP 2022's and a brace of magazines.

I was in a gun shop to have some repairs done on a Ruger Old Army when I saw the used Sig sitting there under the glass. It was calling to me. It followed me home that day. I liked it so much that I bought another on Gun Broker. The 2nd one came with a Sig branded Laser/Light combo thing. I will get my paws on it on Monday or Tuesday. Then I am gonna drag my ex to range with few hundred rounds of handloads and work out the kinks in the new/pre-owned guns.

These are nice 9's. Built like a tank by Sig in NH (home state of our hero MA) and light enuf to carry all day with a 15 round magazine. I expect to carry a pair of spares to feed this pistol and I will not feel undergunned in any situation once I get myself accurate and familiar with these guns.

I load down some of the ammo to accomodate my ex who has some medical issues with her hands and right forearm. Once she gets comfortable and accurate with the gun I will throttle up the ammo to normal specs.

[waksupi]

Guys, I've been telling people for a long long time, that jacketed bullets are TRYING to equal the performance of cast boolits. Once you have used them in varied situations, you will see the cast are better than the jacketed bullets. Period. Jacketed bullets were made for the lazy man.

[RobsTV]

.... If lead is so much better why are Law enforcement, military and everybody else using jacketed bullets?
.

I can think of many reasons.

Start with reloads.
Pretty much forget about it.
Too much legal risk involved, plus gun makers that are in bed with the commercial ammo industry frown upon reloads. Heck, many commercial retail shooting ranges prohibit reloads, since it takes away a huge part of their income (although they'll make up excuses about safety, etc).

Then there are the Glock 40 Kaboom issues that might be mostly myth, but enough for one of the most used LEO weapons makers to state not to use reloads.

So if you remove reloads from the cast boolit equation, you might as well shoot jacketed, since you remove many of the key parts that make shooting cast much more accurate and reliable.

Also environmentalists will object to the government use of unsafe lead.
Also if not done properly, leading will occur.
Probably a dozen more reasons why they don't use cast, but it is not because of reliability or accuracy if done properly.

[Muddydogs]

I can think of many reasons.

Start with reloads.
Pretty much forget about it.
Too much legal risk involved, plus gun makers that are in bed with the commercial ammo industry frown upon reloads. Heck, many commercial retail shooting ranges prohibit reloads, since it takes away a huge part of their income (although they'll make up excuses about safety, etc).

Then there are the Glock 40 Kaboom issues that might be mostly myth, but enough for one of the most used LEO weapons makers to state not to use reloads.

So if you remove reloads from the cast boolit equation, you might as well shoot jacketed, since you remove many of the key parts that make shooting cast much more accurate and reliable.

Also environmentalists will object to the government use of unsafe lead.
Also if not done properly, leading will occur.
Probably a dozen more reasons why they don't use cast, but it is not because of reliability or accuracy if done properly.

They sell factory Lead rounds for about any pistol caliber there is. While they may not have the bullet sized for your weapon they are generally cheaper then jacketed and a lot of people buy them for target practice.

[Jim]

They sell factory Lead rounds for about any pistol caliber there is. While they may not have the bullet sized for your weapon they are generally cheaper then jacketed and a lot of people buy them for target practice.

A friend told me Thursday that he found over 20 boxes of .38 Spl. 158 gr. lead RNs at the closest Wally World (25 mi.?) for $20. He bought one and said he would stop by soon to pick up one or two more.

[Muddydogs]

Guys, I've been telling people for a long long time, that jacketed bullets are TRYING to equal the performance of cast boolits. Once you have used them in varied situations, you will see the cast are better than the jacketed bullets. Period. Jacketed bullets were made for the lazy man.

While I will not take offense to being called lazy just for shooting some jacketed bullets please show me how come lead is better. I personally have retrieved cast and jacketed bullets from animals and from what I have seen jacketed have expanded more causing more damage. Upon butchering the animals I have found that jacketed left a bigger deeper wound channel then lead and more often than not the jacketed have exited the animal while lead is often times found in the off side hide. I understand the theory that because the lead round is in the off side hide that it did a better job as all its energy was used up in the animal but I would rather have 2 holes leaking blood to follow then one. I guess not having an exit hole is a plus in a defense shooting but then this tends to make me wonder what if I need to shot through a windshield, door, or wall, will the lead still have enough energy to do its job?

[waksupi]

While I will not take offense to being called lazy just for shooting some jacketed bullets please show me how come lead is better. I personally have retrieved cast and jacketed bullets from animals and from what I have seen jacketed have expanded more causing more damage. Upon butchering the animals I have found that jacketed left a bigger deeper wound channel then lead and more often than not the jacketed have exited the animal while lead is often times found in the off side hide. I understand the theory that because the lead round is in the off side hide that it did a better job as all its energy was used up in the animal but I would rather have 2 holes leaking blood to follow then one. I guess not having an exit hole is a plus in a defense shooting but then this tends to make me wonder what if I need to shot through a windshield, door, or wall, will the lead still have enough energy to do its job?

"Guys, I've been telling people for a long long time, that jacketed bullets are TRYING to equal the performance of cast boolits."

That is why.

What are you shooting with cast bullets that they aren't passing completely through? Small caliber round balls in a muzzle loader? Those are the only ones I have recovered, aside from one in a bear, and I have killed dozens of animals with cast, including deer, antelope, bear, bison, and elk. I bet there aren't many here who have ever recovered a cast bullet after hitting an animal. More than one have reported shooting deer with pistols, and having the bullet go end to end. You must have some tough animals where you are.
You do know there is such a thing as too big of a wound channel for fast kills? The cast bullet is more able to be tailored for controlled expansion than jacketed.

[Finarfin]

I'm kinda with Waksupi on this one. Furthermore, I don't see what difference it makes. A good JHP and a cast HP do mostly the same thing. Reloads vs factory? Eh, whatever. I cast and get the performance I'm looking for. I reload and get the performance I'm looking for. Factory bullets don't do it better than cast reloads, so why should I pay more to get what I already have?

I don't currently reload for a handgun, but if my backordered dies ever show up I will start. My plan is to cast 125 grain 9mm penta HP from my new MP mold. The only thing I'd buy factory loads for would be range practice and brass.

[John in WI]

I carry a 9x18 CZ-82 which I do not reload for. But, for my HD firearms I keep the .38 special loaded with 158gr dead soft lead "FBI loads" and the 12 gauge loaded with water dropped #1 buckshot. I have complete faith in the dead soft lead moving at around 950fps out of the .38. If it doesn't expand, it's still a SWC. Leads the barrel a little bit--but in a HD situation, I'm thinking barrel leading will be the least of my worries!

What I DO do for my self defense hand loads is an extra quality control step. I examine them at each step (looking for cracks, primer pockets, primer seating). Then I load them and wipe them down with naptha and have another look. Finally I weight each completed round to make sure I didn't miss a powder charge somewhere. I got paranoid because at one point early in my reloading experience I pulled the trigger and only heard a gentle "pop". Sure enough the primer had just enough power to put the slug halfway down the barrel and lodge it in there. Fortunately I knew what happened and didn't fire again until I cleared it. Had that happened in a "controlled pair" or double tap, KABOOM.

[fcvan]

My wife bought some factory reloads for her Glock 23 as I hadn't stocked her up with enough 40. The box was a mix of brass and nickel. If you loaded the mag with all brass or all nickel it would feed fine. If you alternated brass/nickel the brass would hang up on the case mouth of the nickel and fail to feed. The nickel rounds were not properly taper crimped. BTW, these were factory reloads with lead bullets. My reloads are more dependable than some factory loads.

Something Waksupi said kinda struck a point. Something about 'What are you shooting with cast bullets that they aren't passing completely through?' Um, a bad guy. Over penetration would be a concern. But then again I'm not using my .41 magnum with hardened hunting loads as my carry gun.

The rounds I shoot and carry in my PDW aren't designed to over penetrate a bipedal anthropoid. The rounds I carry for hunting are designed to give good penetration and as close to DRT as one can get. If you have to shoot for defense and there is a risk of secondary injury from over penetrating and hitting a bystander you might want to think about that before letting lead fly.

[fredj338]

I don't, prefer factory JHP to my LHP, but I certainly would carry them if needed, especially in my 44mag 3".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

[Jay561]

Dont see any reason not to. Hopefully soon I will be able to.

[7Acres]

Fred338, what media did you fire your HP boolit into? That's some nice looking expansion!

[Grendel99]

Those look awesome fredj338! Is that a Lyman 429460 on the right? What is the other?

[onehousecat]

I use my own cast bullets. They are what I shoot on a regular basis, so I know their point of impact. In my auto pistols, my bullets feed reliably. I'm not about to invest in several hundred rounds (per auto pistol) of jacketed bullets just to see if they feed reliably. In a self defense situation, I'm more concerned about putting the bullet on target than what kind of bullet it is.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Yup, I carry cast all the time. Mostly because the internet tells me not to :Fire:

[dilly]

Have you guys considered the possibility that what you say on these boards could be dug up and used in these civil cases of which you speak?

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Dilly. I think we're losing sight of the Prime Motivator here, which is to be alive to deal with whatever happens (or doesn't, more likely) in court.

[casca]

Greetings
here in Illinois, we are not privileged enough to have concealed carry, YET Not so keen on carrying this glock around or even my ol Berlin days CZ 75, I have casted quite a few bullets . But in times like this last trip to the AMMO STORE - I couldn't find any bullets left on the shelf ! The ruger Sp 101 does love cast. note- i can't remember where I put my shoes, my wife dreads the day I can't find my gun .

[JaxCatm]

I carry plain old Keith style bullets over a decent charge of 2400 in a 4 5/8 Ruger Flattop 44 Spl. It is my carry gun whether CCW or out working. Seems I would much rather have a pistol on me that I know and trust. With that said I never came across a fight I could not walk away from. Control your emotions and do everything you can to avoid trouble. If that fails chances are whatever you used will be justified.

[Max Brand]

I carry nothing but cast loads in my 1911's and pretty much always have. I've seen these legal arguments on the forums for years and they continue to rage on and probably always will. At my age I couldn't run away from an assailant if I had a cattle prod stuck to my backside so the way I see it I'm lot better off judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[Elkins45]

He used factory 10mm hollow points.

I occasionally carry a S&W 10mm with hollow points because the Kentucky State Police carried the same thing. Now they carry Glocks in 40 S&W. Guess now I'll carry a 10mm because they USED to carry them.

Ayoob colored my thinking on factory ammo for SD. He may be overly cautious, but it is one less thing to worry about. I have no reason to believe I can make better pistol ammo than the factories do.

If I lived in New Jersey I would probably have no choice but to carry something with big SWC bullets.

[9.3X62AL]

I have "What if'ed?" this question 6 ways from Sunday as a criminal investigator--firearms trainer--expert witness--and hobbyist. I carry the old agency's assigned rounds in 357 Mag, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 12 gauge, and 223 Rem. I like the performance of the issue rounds in those calibers and gauge. I DON'T like the 9mm round, so I don't carry the caliber in harm's way. Again, I have restrictions that most of the other members here don't have, so take what I say in that context. I do load "duplicators" of my carry loads for practice using cast bullets in the handgun calibers, and I expend my carry ammo twice yearly and refresh it.

What would happen if I had some fool engage me while I was hunting with an "unauthorized" rifle or handgun caliber? I would dance with the partner I brought, that's what. I don't complicate my sitch with extraneous legalities once an aggressor commences an exchange of finality. I don't care if he had a troubled childhood, suffered economic deprivation, has a drug addiction, or a mental problem. His actions directly threaten my life and the lives around me--perhaps my loved ones. He must be stopped, and prevented from completing his task. That 'stop' may require lethal force. His actions forced that decision. It's on him, not me. So, "which ammo?" is a question that isn't even on the radar at such times, and in my experience wasn't on the radar of my brother and sister investigators or the prosecutors.

Are handloads or factory loads "better"? I doubt it. My failure rate observed with factory loads over 23 years as a range trainer is about the same microscopic percentage as I've had with my own handloads. This tells me that the primer or its installation is the most likely pitfall of a centerfire cartridge. I've seen several primers installed backwards in factory rounds, mostly after a failure on the firing line. I have gotten into the habit of feeling and looking at EVERY primer of every round I load into a magazine or cylinder of a firearm carried in harm's way, from this experience. I am also observant of primer seating and appearance while loading my ammo. No Dillons here, though nothing says that you Dillonistos can't check your primer seating after the round is completed.

I say 'carry whatever ammunition you feel most comfortable with', and God forbid the necessity of ever having to bring it to bear.

[fredj338]

Fred338, what media did you fire your HP boolit into? That's some nice looking expansion!
I always test in wetpack, usually phone books, they are very repeatable. Expansion in wetpack looks just like bullets I have pulled from large game animals. No it's not gel, so what. Gel isn't flesh either & is diff to work with.

Those look awesome fredj338! Is that a Lyman 429460 on the right? What is the other?
The 5pt HP is the Lyman 225gr as modified by Erik of HPMS. The other is the 44 Dev by Lyman w/ a cup point.

[NSP64]

I do exclusively

[archmaker]

I was of the opinon of carrying store bought rounds at first, but now I carry a 230gr HP cast load in my 45 and the reason is very simple. I know it works in my gun, I know the load I am using has been tuned to the gun to ensure reliable functioning while also minimizing the errors from aiming or my old eyes. My thinking is like the first rule of gunfight, "be sure to bring a gun", I think the second should be "make sure the bullets leaves your barrel and goes where intended" after that any other rule or law just isn't all that important or of a concern to me.

[BAGTIC]

Consider this alternative. You shoot at a bad guy and miss completely. The bullet hits a baystander in the distance. The HP expands violently doing great tissue damage. You get sued because you were not using a less aggressive FMJ that would have produced less trauma. "Your Honor he deliberately chose thos HP bullets in order to do as much damage as possible. Therefore he should have been more cautious in taking a shot of which he was obviously uncertain or incapable". EXCESSIVE FORCE!

If you hit a bystander you are going to get sued even if you are shooting ping-pong balls. Otherwise how are the bloodsucking lawyers going to make the payments on their new Mercedes.

[Brad Phillips]

I guess I do both, gold dots in the glock and cast in the .44-40. While it may be true that factory stuff is easier for your lawyer to defend, in the end if I have to defend myself, stopping the threat will take priority.

[RoyEllis]

What if, what if, what if..........doesn't mean cr@p. Worried you'll miss & hit a bystander? Shoot more, practice harder, MISS LESS. One round deadlier than another? From experience I can tell you they do not ask what bullet type you were shooting, only real concern is # of rounds fired & was it reasonable amount to stop the threat. If the scene shows thru & thru rounds that impacted the surface under said assailant.....you got some 'splaining to do Lucy. Other than going stupid, you're a lot safer answering investigators ?s afterwards than providing the coroner with answers during an autopsy.:coffee:

[JWFilips]

Could it just be any bullet hurts real bad when put into the proper place! Practice on that place & take your chances on the jury Hopefully they won't be swayed by Obamanation!

[jlchucker]

I don't carry daily, but my truck gun and any gun that I keep loaded at home have mostly my cast in them. I do have a bunch of plated loads also the look like factory rounds that are in some mags for those guns, if I have to use them I won't tell them they are reloads. I'm not to worried about being charged for something because I used my own loads, it hasn't happened yet in the states so why worry?
I want my boolits to expand greatly and not go through. The one thing that I don't want is to hit anybody behind the BG.

I don't carry daily either, but there's usually a firearm in my vehicle. If it's a handgun it's usually loaded, since in my State there (so far) is no law against concealed carry or any prohibition against carrying loaded sidearms in a vehicle. However, it's illegal here to carry loaded long guns in a vehicle. When I do carry, it's usually something with a cast boolit. When I carry rifles in the woods or afield, the loads are always handloads--usually with boolits.

[NVScouter]

I carry cast in my revolvers, FMJ in my 380, JSP in my 9mm and 180g JHP in my 40.

My revolver loads are cast and I know I can hit anything I aim at to 100 yards and 4 out of 6 at 250y. My confidence in a 260g WFN moving over 1200FPS is 100%. While my confidence in my 380's 95g FMJ is knowing A) its on my...even in shorts and B) It'll fire enough to get me out of the situation.

I also do penitration tests on any load I'm going to carry.

While working at CATM in the USAF I did many expansion and penitration tests. They taught me that balisitc jelly tests are great on naked people. Clothes and body armor plug up a JHP making it a light weight soild pretty fast unless they have enough mass to push past that plug. Add wallets, cell phones, doors, jewelry, etc and your taking an increased risk of poor bullet performance.

A good expanding soft point or cast is going to average out better performance. FMJs always perform the same, especialy in light calibers like 32ACP/380/38 snub noses. Small short barreled firearms ask a lot from these pocket pistol calibers, many times too much for a small 65-125g HP moving under 1K. Its all about reliable, consistance, predictable performance....not 1 shot stops.

[jdgabbard]

For the most part, you will be financially ruined no matter what ammo used, depending on local "ways". If any suits are filed ( civil usually), they will be filed reguardless, doesn't matter if you used factory stuff.

It's stuff like this BS that puts all the bad info out on the net. A civil suit under this premise would have NO standing. It would be dismissed. It doesn't matter what you carried, if the shooting was justified it was justified. The only way ammo is going to jack up your case is if you're using something that is banned in your AO. There is enough case law out there to support this. Look it up. There has to be law against it for you to be charged, otherwise the charge they are trying to charge you with will be dismissed. In a civil suit you'll see the same thing. The only exception to this is down in Louisiana, where they do not use the common law system, rather the napoleon code.,

[9.3X62AL]

Gotta largely agree with JD Gabbard here. I've investigated a number of citizen shootings, and less than half resulted in civil suits. Of those suits, many were dismissed outright--unless homeowner's insurance was involved. The insurers were prone to offer $5K-$15K just to make the mooks go away, because that is cheaper than trial costs for fighting the matter to a dismissal. This is California, not a gun-friendly place by any means, but this was my experience. I cannot recall being called to court to testify in any such matter, and was only subpoenaed to one--in which I was the shooter. It went nowhere. Dunno about Los Angeles or SFO, but out where I did cop work in the Inland Empire such lawsuits had very little jury appeal.