Question about some brass

[pumpguy]

I picked up a bunch of 45 acp brass at the range the other day. I always sort my brass by brand. As I sorted it, I noticed the CCI and Speer stuff looked to be the same brass. No surprise there. Can anyone tell me if this stuff is made by the Independence company? It is the brass that has the +I+ logo. It looks identical. If so are there any others stamped by them and loaded by someone else???

[felix]

Brass, primers, and powder are becoming a commodity more and more. Raw brass in this country is made mostly by Olin, I'd bet. Olin will take raw brass is as far as a large buyer would want it, by making pellets to any size, for example, to be drawn into cartridge cases. Tell them what cartridge case, and they will form the appropriate pellets in advance of shipment. I know they have roll mills also, but also sell raw metal to be rolled by other vendors. Brass is made in volume in other countries too, but how much it is imported I don't know about. I am sure Google will have some good references to carry this interest further if so desired.

Sorting by brand might be OK for starters, but in reality brass should be sorted by the way they shoot without regard to brand. My BR gun has all kinds of brands, all mixed up in groups of 10 that all will shoot into one solid group. There is no shootable difference in commercial 223 and military 223 according to my findings. I have converted many of them into 222 Ackley (40 degree) for the BR gun. Some lots need to be neck turned dramatically, too. Others just some. Some military cases have extremely thin necks already, perhaps too thin for a military gun in my opinion.

... felix

[kodiak1]

Wow Felix someone that tells it the way it is. I can see why you don't write in perioticles because the troops would be bashing you from every side. I don't know a whole bunch about anything but along time ago if a brass shot well it got set aside in the favorite brass pile if it shot like so so well I hadf one of those piles also. I also had a s**t pile and that was how those rounds had fired.
Just like tires you are getting recapped to put on a big truck if it wears good recap it if wears really funny trade it for a casing and take the credit for it.
Thanks for the honest truth on that one. Ken.

[mike in co]

*I* i think is israeli.........

[Whitespider]

There is no shootable difference in commercial 223 and military 223 according to my findings.
... felix

I’LL SECOND THAT!
I once checked the case capacities of 15 different .223 head stamps, some military, some commercial. The largest capacity case was a military case. That ended the assumption, at least for me, that it’s always necessary to reduce the load when using military cases. The extreme spread (capacity) for all head stamps was just over 1 grain of ball propellant, 11 of the 15 were within ½ grain capacity of each other. In the shooting test, only 2 cases (one commercial and one military) required a ½ grain reduction in powder charge to keep average velocities relatively equivalent for all cases.

[BluesBear]

*I* i think is israeli.........
NO. You're thinking of IMI.
IMI is Israel Military Industries.


*I* Is the headstamp of Independence Ammunition. The unmentioned bastard stepchild division of ATK.
(ATK also owns Speer/CCI, Federal and Estate cartridge - as well as Alliant Powder and RCBS just to name a few of their companies)

You can usually only find Independence ammo at shooting ranges and big box stores like Sportsman's Warehouse.
The address on the boxes is Ammunition Acessories Inc., Lewiston Idaho.
Which is the same address you'll find on CCI/Speer ammo boxes.

It's good ammo. I've shot about 10,000 rounds of it in the past three years.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Jeez Felix, he's talking about 45 ACP brass. I don't know anyone that even trims 45 brass, let alone neck turning?! LOL The wealth of knowledge on this site continues to amaze me!

Whitespider, I did a similar test weighing Win, R-P and Lake City 223 brass. Don't recall the actual weights, but there was only about a 1 to 2 grain difference in all of them. Which translates into a very small difference on case volume. You can get more difference from one lot to the next of the same brand. After doing some further research, the assumption of loading 1 to 2 grains of powder lighter for military brass only holds true for 30-06 and .308.

[felix]

Yeah, keep in mind in that 223 size of case, a primer can make the difference of a half-grain of a 4198-322. So, right off the bat you can load your mild primers in the cases with the smaller volume. No, you cannot get away with measuring cases by weight unless they are from the same lot of raw material. Even then cases can be drawn off center enough to make them shoot out of the group. The only way for sure is to shoot each having the same internal volume. ... felix

[Whitespider]

Whitespider..... the assumption of loading 1 to 2 grains of powder lighter for military brass only holds true for 30-06 and .308.

Hmmmmmm GrizzLee,

I’ve got a ton of 30-06 brass, probably in the neighborhood of 500-600. I might just hafta’ run some similar tests. I’ve never owned one, but played around with dads M70 and cast boolits some. Guess I’ll hafta’ go borrow it again, if he’ll let me. Last time I didn’t return it for 3½ years. [smilie=1:

[pumpguy]

Thanks for the info, Bluesbear. I rather suspected it was something along those lines. I have to say that the Federal does look different. Owell.