cast boolits in semi-autos

[twotoescharlie]

I have heard that shooting cast boolits in gas operated semi autos will plug the gas ports in the barrels. never tried this, but I don't want to screw up something I cannot eat. ie, M1 garands,SKS,AKS,M1carbine etc.
any comments would be appreciated.

TTC

[Willbird]

In Col. harrisons book I think there is an article on that, the garand on a stock one it is easy to remove the gas cyl for cleaning, this is not as true in a NM garand.

posters here seem to have good luck with the m1 carbine with cast..

I have a friend that wants me to make him some cast for his Cetme, that is not gas operated so I think it out to work ok if the bbl will throw plumbum boolits accurately.

Bill

[45 2.1]

There will be no problem with those you mentioned if you use hard (water dropped wheelweights) bullets and a good lube.

[BruceB]

TTC, pard;

Many thousands of cast bullets have gone down the bores of my gas-operated rifles. These included Garands, FALs, M1 Carbines, G43s, FN49s, the SKS, and probably a couple more that escape me right now. If the loads are correctly calculated and assembled, they work just fine, and it's not difficult.

Last summer I put over 600 consecutive cast rounds through my Garand WITHOUT CLEANING, and I only stripped it out of curiosity, to see how much fouling was present. The bore was sparkling-clean with no visible leading, and the gas system only had minor fouling, considering the number of rounds fired. M1 Carbines also do fine, although it's a good idea to keep a gas-piston wrench handy just in case. FALS etc. react much like the Garand....minor crud here and there, but nothing to impede good function.

This performance pre-supposes that we use fairly-hard bullets of a design that allows good feeding, good bullet lubes, and moderate-speed powders which can easily duplicate the gasport pressure of the factory jacketed loads. Slower-burning powders than normal for a cartridge can also give useful performance, especially if we want to run the load at slower-than-normal speeds.

A good example of this is the "BobS Method" of using H4831 in the Garand. With jacketed loads, H4831 is TOO SLOW for the Garand and will lead to damaging the rifle due to "over-driving" the mechanism because of too-high pressure at the gasport. With a good cast bullet, however, we can load a lower-pressure, lower-velocity load which still has sufficient pressure at the end of the barrel (where the gasport lives) to operate the rifle with very limited stress. VERY good technique, and one that I'm going to be trying again when my new M-14 gets here.

Cast your bullets reasonably hard, or heat-treat them, and give them a try in your gasguns. They'll work fine. For specific load data, post another inquiry here and we'll try to help you out.

You will NOT "screw them up" if you approach the project properly.

[Newtire]

Hey Two-Toes,
Got to agree about shooting cast in the M-1 Carbine. Only thing that hangs me up is the style of bullet that will feed thru mine & that's just that it won't feed flat-nosers but likes the Lee 120 & (now not listed in their catalog)130 gr. I also got the Lyman pointed 115 gr. to feed so it ought to be great jusdging from what I hear. I've been using H-4227 & 2400 cause that's what I have. I also shot a bunch of "Laser-cast" storebought bullets out of it & it likes those round noses. No leading & nothing except some light carbon on the gas piston, no malfunctions in over 200 rounds. I hear there are loads with other faster powders but was thinking about the operating rod maybe taking a beating. Sure fun gun to shoot. I cast the bullets, water drop them & lube with Lee Liquid Alox. I Size them .309 cause the barrel slugs out at .3075". (My .30-30 guns like .310" and my '06's are liking .309".) I seat all of them 1.675" OAL & they just kiss the rifling. That's a nice gun for cast alright!

[Patrick L]

I too have been very frustrated trying to shoot cast in my Garand.

I have been shooting cast in my 03 Springfields with great success for several years. I shoot 18 gr of 2400 with the SAECO 196 TC at about 1500 fps (chrono'ed, not estimated.) These loads will do about 2 1/2 " at 100 yds, which is about as good as my eyes will do with iron sights. This load will shoot fine out of the M1, but of course as a single shot.

For loads to work the action, I go to about 35 gr IMR 4895 and the Lyman 311041, which is close to the old Match M1 bullet weight. Rifle functions fine, I get no leading, and very minimal lead fouling in the gas cylinder and piston, but accuracy is lousy. Best groups are 6 - 8 ", and those are the BEST. Many go a foot or more.

I think either my alloy or lube are not up to the increased velocity of these loads. My alloy is WWM with about 2% tin, and I use Tamarack lube. As I said, at 1500 fps this combo has been great. I haven't had a chance to chrono them yet, but I would guess they are going 2000 - 2200 fps. I think I may need to play around with quenching my bullets, or try a different lube. Or maybe both. Incedentally, my M1 has been rebarreled and match tuned, and shoots jacketed ammo great, so I know its not the gun. And, I clean all of the copper out beore I do any serious cast testing.

Any thoughts ?

[9.3X62AL]

My one true regret--other than selling it--was to have never tried the castings in my HK-91. It was incredibly accurate with the red-coated critters, and since it was (in effect) "recoil operated" with its roller-locked action, there is no good reaosn it could not have worked with the cast critters. Alas--a HUGE buy offer and impending legislation combined to make selling the rifle a fine idea at the time. STUPID STUPID STUPID.

[Buckshot]

..............I've shot cast from my M1 Carb, Garand, Hakim, Ljungman, and SKS without problems at all. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot cast from any auto loader, gas or otherwise. The only requirement for a gas gun is that it's system be operator cleanable. Such a system as the IMI Desert Eagles with closed systems would be a no-no.

BTW, to test the accuracy your auto loader is capable of, fire it as a manually operated piece. Ie: disable the gas system. Let the bolt strip off and chamber the round, and then fire it. Manually extract the case. After that is established fire the piece semi-automaticly. Any differences in accuracy will be attributable to handling by the mechanism, the cartridge's position in the magazine and locking differences when the rifle is doing the work.

...............Buckshot

[carpetman]

It is impossible to shoot a cast bullet in a semi-automatic. Everyone knows that--we hear it all the time. That is the reason NO gun manufacturer has EVER made a semi auto for shooting cast bullets. Well ok,I did hear about some company making a .22 rimfire auto once,but since jacketed bullets were required to make a semi operate,the idea didn't last.

[Herb in Pa]

I've poured thousands of full auto rounds through my MP40 with no ill effects and shoot cast regularly in my Russian SKS.

[twotoescharlie]

thanks everyone

TTC

[StarMetal]

Herb

That MP40 is blowback isn't it. If so they aren't subject to the same rigor the gas operated semi's or full auto's would get from cast ammo. I have shot some cast in my AR 15 just to see what it would do and also what it would do to the gas system and didn't reall see any bad effect.

Joe

[Herb in Pa]

Yep, it's a blowback, but I've also shot them in an MP5.

[StarMetal]

MP5 is blowback too. I have an HK UCP carbine in 45 acp and all I shoot of it is cast. Boy it loves them.

Joe

[Herb in Pa]

Correct again Joe - delayed roller locked blowback - but I've also fired them out of an M14 on full auto. They were my buddy's firearm and loads but they worked just fine.

[StarMetal]

Herb

I'm not flaming you or nothing just pointing out those firearms you mentioned are blowback and well, so are most all semi-auto pistols, so that's not a good example for shooting cast in autos and seeing if it will eventually gum up the works. Now that full auto M14 you mentioned is a very good example. The AR15 is too because it doesn't have a gas piston like say an SKS, AK 47, M14, etc. So if you plug up the gas tube hole up under the front sight you're pretty much in trouble and have to remove the sight to clean it.

Joe

[Herb in Pa]

Joe - no offense taken.......Herb

[Buckshot]

............Had a co-worker many years ago who put together a Sten. He had a friend, who knew a guy who knew a guy :D who owned a machine shop and they bought a lot of aluminum scrap from the Mag-Light operation here in Ontario. As a consequence he had an aluminum silencer for it too. I don't remember his name, and he moved. And I don't know where he moved, either [smilie=l: (or the name of the machine shop, come to think about it).

But to get to the point, he'd asked me to cast him a bunch of the Lyman 147gr FNBB slugs, and he gave me the mould for the work. He later told me they worked very well, except they constipated the muffler after a few magazines worth, so it got noisier.

............Buckshot

[JDL]

This is a little off topic, but may be of intrest. I have some friends who have some very intresting full auto guns. All on the up and up with transfer fees paid etc.,etc.
The cost of feeding their Thompson sub guns was getting somewhat costly, so they decided to try cast. Charlie had an M1 Thompson, the reduced cost model with the operating handle on the right side, and it functions as well with cast as with FMJ. Joe, on the other hand, has the spiffy, model with the Lyman sight, finned barrel, drum mag., pistol grip fore end, and cutts comp. He said that after fireing a magazine full, the cutts was so clogged up with lead, it took him a day to clean it all out, so he went back to the FMj variety.-JDL

[BruceB]

I have ONE limited experience with cast bullets in a GAS-OPERATED full-auto.

On a single wish-I-could-forget-it occasion, I ran two 30-round mags of cast loads through my .303 Bren LMG on full auto, and the gas system was thoroughly lead-plated. It took hours of work to get it cleaned out. That was the end of cast bullets in my full-autos, except for a Sten which worked fine with Lyman 356402s. I definitely would NOT repeat the Bren episode with cast bullets! The gun was hot enough toward the end of the sixty rounds that the bullets had to be melting going down the bore, and some of the plating was fully eight inches from the gasport.

I did fire a very few full-auto cast rounds through an FAL which "could" be full-auto on demand, given a little sleight-of-hand and a beer-can pull-tab, but by then I knew better than to hose the rounds off...which doesn't yield much for effectiveness in the normal-weight FAL anyway.

Oh, to be young and foolish once more....

[Patrick L]

I'm not trying to be rude, and it is certainly entertaining to learn of all your full auto exploits, but could we return to the subject of shooting cast in gas guns the majority of us are likely to own ? I for one find the wealth of knowlege on this forum very enlightening, and I am hoping to learn why I haven't been very successful to date shooting cast out of my Garand.

Again, I apologize if I am coming off as disrespectful, but I sense the answers to my questions are to be found here !

[No_1]

[QUOTE=Patrick L]I'm not trying to be rude, and it is certainly entertaining to learn of all your full auto exploits, but could we return to the subject of shooting cast in gas guns the majority of us are likely to own ?

Good morning Patrick,

I am sure your comments are not taken as rude. We all tend to add what info to a topic that we have experience in so that others may learn. I have followed this thread and see good stuff from every post. For example, the Thompson issue. 2 rifles that are alike but are different as one has a comp on it. It worked in one but not the other. The issue here being the comp. Maybe someone here has had the sam problem and solved it. His input can help us all.

Now to your issue. You are experiencing an accuracy issue with a load that you think should shoot good in your rifle? Have you tried this load in your bolt gun? Does it shoot good there? It may or may not shoot in either rifle but if it shoots in one, there is a good chance that it should shoot in another.

I myself tend to believe it may be an issue caused by the abrupt force required to strip the round from the magazine and and then chamber it. As you know, for this round to feed, it has to move forward, either left or right depending on which side of the c-clip it is coming from, then up and then lay flat again as it goes into the chamber. Maybe this process is damaging the projectile before it is fired making accuracy difficult if not impossible to obtain. I would load a c-clip, drop it in the rifle, chamber a round then pull the trigger which would allow the next cartridge to chamber in the normal semi-auto manner. Then I would stop, using all safety precautions I could muster, e-ject that recently-but-not-fired round and inspect the bullet. You may find your answer.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Bullshop]

This is a little off topic, but may be of intrest. I have some friends who have some very intresting full auto guns. All on the up and up with transfer fees paid etc.,etc.
The cost of feeding their Thompson sub guns was getting somewhat costly, so they decided to try cast. Charlie had an M1 Thompson, the reduced cost model with the operating handle on the right side, and it functions as well with cast as with FMJ. Joe, on the other hand, has the spiffy, model with the Lyman sight, finned barrel, drum mag., pistol grip fore end, and cutts comp. He said that after fireing a magazine full, the cutts was so clogged up with lead, it took him a day to clean it all out, so he went back to the FMj variety.-JDL
JDL
Are you shure the one that had problems was shooting cast boolits and not swaged? I used to do the gun show curcut and many many times have had people interupt a sale to protect a customer from what they think are the hazards of cast boolits when on inquiry I find in fact they have never shot cast bullest. Thier story is always about the same. They baught a box of what they assumed was cast beacuse they were lead and red lined the pressure in thier mag pistal and you can guess the results. Those pure soft lead bullets with no lube plated the bore to the point there were no grooves left. A person with this type of experiance can cause so much confusion for the ignorant that instead of learning the truth they turn away from using cast and repeat the myths they have heard from a friend that they believe realy has the experiance, and the bad bad boolit salsemen is trying to sell them something that might hurt them or damage thier new magi boomer because he is just a greedy selfish slobb. After a long weekend of trying to get these poor misguided souls on track I tend to be a bit grouchy and am kinda hearing the story ringing over and over in my head. I wonder how one of these poor misguided souls would fare if he showed up on this sight warning us all of the danger we put ourselfs in and the damage we will cause to our favorite old Betsy. I believe that would be very entertaining indeed!
BIC/BS

[JDL]

Bullshop,
The barrel wasn't leaded on Joe's gun, only the cutts' ports. Charlie cast them himself and, while I did not witness the aforementioned event, when we were shooting later, Joe wouldn't touch them for his Thompson. Charlie grinned and said," He should've bought an old clunker like mine." -JDL

[BruceB]

On the Garand issue, I'm in the process of developing cast loads with my own M1, which has a new-condition issue barrel and a Boyd's stock.

Just lately I've been shooting some fairly good cast-boolit groups but I'm being plagued with first-round flyers. I'm beginning to suspect some kind of stock fit problem as the source for these, but haven't been able to isolate the problem yet.

When six or seven rounds from a single clip-full go into an inch or less at point of aim from fifty yards, but the first round is repeatedly four inches or more low, there is a definite and fairly-consistent problem.

BobS reports competition-quality Garand results with the heavy 311284 boolit loaded over 42 grains of H4831 with a bit of toilet tissue over the powder. I tried some of these, and they work well in my Garand. I also loaded some with 40.0 grains of IMR 4831, a bit quicker burning, with a wee bit of dacron for fill and using 311291 and 311314....both about 170 grains. Function was just a tad sluggish, and I'll bump this load two grains the next time, or else change to a somewhat heavier bullet, which will have the same net effect of boosting pressure a tad at the gasport.

There was no leading whatever with these 4831 loads, and last year I fired over 600 consecutive assorted cast loads in this rifle without cleaning. It was still functioning fine when I stripped it just for curiosity's sake, and showed zero lead in the barrel or gas system.

Don't worry if threads wander a bit. This is common here, and often educational, entertaining, or both. We don't frown on it as long as it doesn't get out of hand.....unlike some sites, where moderators and/or posters try ruling with the iron fist and mostly just drive people away.