New gun law Military and ex military guys

[dakotashooter2]

I'm just curious how you military guys feel about the proposed new gun laws which would exclude retired police officers from the assault weapon ban (they could legally have them) but NOT exclude ex or retired military from the ban. Personally I don't think a retired police officer (or ex military) should have rights the ordinary citizen doesn't but if this would go through I don't think it is right that ex military shouldn't have the same exclusion as police..........

One might make some assumptions as to why our government doesn't want ex military to have assault weapons.

[horsesoldier]

The way I look at it is that I will not be the force to disarm anybody.Nor will I submit to any new laws.We have been infringed on enough.I like how some people are worried about the national guard coming to seize firearms. They forget the guard is made up of people like me and you.We are all patriots ourselves and we remember the oath we took.

If it was up to me the goverment would be funding a decentralized militia system the elects its own officers.Like the training bands of the colonies.

[cbrick]

One might make some assumptions as to why our government doesn't want ex military to have assault weapons.

Assumptions?

Rick

[Love Life]

I have also always wondered why military doesn't get the same carry privelages as law enforcement officers. Why can't we carry concealed everywhere? Are we not as well trained as police officers? I bet we would have a better hit ratio...

[cbrick]

Here's another stat the anti-gunners don't want you to know.

Armed American civilians far out number police by many times over.

Every year there are far fewer "bad" shootings by civilians than there are by police.

That stat does not include crime stats but rather self defense use of a firearm.

Rick

[Olevern]

As a retired law enforcement officer I do not support any 2nd amendment right infrigement for any citizen, former/current LEO or not.

[Got-R-Did]

Olevern, Well Stated!
LoveLife, is that a challenge?
Got-R-Did.

[frkelly74]

I have also always wondered why military doesn't get the same carry privelages as law enforcement officers. Why can't we carry concealed everywhere? Are we not as well trained as police officers? I bet we would have a better hit ratio...
that might be the reason.

[cbrick]

I have also always wondered why military doesn't get the same carry privelages as law enforcement officers. Why can't we carry concealed everywhere? Are we not as well trained as police officers? I bet we would have a better hit ratio...

I understand what your saying but that isn't well worded. First, it's NOT a privledge, it's your right given to you by god, the Constitution prohibits government from interfering with your god given rights. Second,why doesn't everyone have the same right, police, military or civilian? Does an ex police or military life deserve protection more than a civilian?

Rick

[Love Life]

Olevern, Well Stated!
LoveLife, is that a challenge?
Got-R-Did.

Absolutely (said in fun)!! Next time I head to the south east I can bring the steel targets and we can ring steel!!

[Love Life]

Thank you for the correction CBRick, but when I can carry concealed anywhere, in any state, without a permit then I can word things correctly. Until then I have to word them within the context of the stupid gunlaws that have been imposed upon the nation during the last century plus 13 years.

[cbrick]

I can bring the steel targets and we can ring steel!!

Ah yes, my favorite music!

Rick

[Rick Hodges]

The reason is purely political and cynical. They don't want retired officers up in arms and actively embarrassing them in the media. Purely a bone to diffuse an embarrassing scene. The real aim is to get them all.
Besides, what could be more harmless than a bunch of old worn out cops who can't shoot straight??;)
Retired PD here....and I don't buy it for a minute.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I used to do some work on the north shore burbs of Chicago back in the 90s when the hand gun bans went into effect some of our $$$$ clients spoke to their suburb police chief and made sizable donations and became auxiliary officers they paid for and took the training required , not even sure if they worked a parade a year to be active

they purchased their exemption basically

in no way fair , but it is what happens.

we need to level the playing field across the board , politicians need to be on the same insurance as the people and no person can be outside the laws others have to follow

[Bad Water Bill]

At the range I shoot at(out of Illinois) I see many RETIRED and active Chicago L E O come out to WARM UP before having to go for their qualification test. Joe citizen be warned. Mr bad guy if you are more than 20 feet away you have nothing to fear. Yes it is really that bad with many of them. Anything over the 7 yard targets are not shot at by most of them.

There are a few you WILL have to watch out for tho. Like the retired detective that keeps all 5 shots in the bull freehand at 50 yards. SURPRISE you picked the wrong cop to misbehave near.

I have wondered for years why returning vets have to prove ANYTHING to have CCW.

They have been there and done that.

How many of the mall ninja swat teams have EVER been exposed to shots being fired in their direction? Why are they allowed to handle an auto fire weapon and a returning vet can not?

Lovelife and all of the returning vets THANK YOU for your service.

From an OLD navy vet.

[shooter93]

There has been legislation proposed that would make a returning vet be certified sane or stable before they could purchase a gun...let alone get a ccw. The reason is simple. For yrs the governments fear has been a couple of generations. Millions of us trained not only in firearm use but also in warfare....including guerilla warfare. Simple truth....we're older now and dying off. Gun control efforts are being doubled up on. Then it suddenly dawns on them.....we've been at war for over 10 years. millions more have been trained, coming home....our numbers are now growing again. That doesn't fit with their plan.

[Bad Water Bill]

IIRC any MD no matter if they are a baby specialist can say you are crazy and you have no recourse.

I think that is in the stuff we had to pass in order to read it.

She should have lost her law license just for making that statement alone.:twisted:

What honest lawyer would ever tell you to sign the contract before either of you can see what is in the now binding contract?

[Larry Gibson]

Personally I don't think a retired police officer (or ex military) should have rights the ordinary citizen doesn't

As a former LEO and retired military I firmly believe that. However, over the years I have had to correct many LEOs thinking that they are something "special" when it comes to 2nd Ammendment rights. Criminals don't think they need a permit to carry and all the background checks doesn't prevent them from getting a firearm or carrying.

Larry Gibson

[xs11jack]

Here is how well we are protected by SOME LEOs. In the middle 1980s, I lived in a suburb of Los Angels and my friend was a patolman in Inglewood. A man with a gun call came in and he and his partner rushed to the scene. A person with mental problems was standing in his yard shoot a rifle at random. At the same time he arrived a detective drove up and exited his car, got behind the front wheel for protection and empted his gun into his squad car's hood. My friend shot the man in the chest and right leg and ended the situation. I never asked my friend what happened to the detective but should have, might have been interesting.
Jack

[Lance Boyle]

LEO and 9 years military here. Rights are rights period.

As far as LEO's can't shoot and Army guys can? give me a break! There's guys that can really shoot in both camps and then there's the ones that shouldn't get a gun in their hands in both camps. Frankly some of the guys who were getting ready to deploy and came out to one our service rifle shoots scared me. 5 young lads, I'm proud of them and all that for their service but they couldn't hit the broadside of the barn, 10 shots toward an SR1 target with 2 hits, 10 shots at 200 yards, no hits. In fact only one of the soldiers was able to hit the SR target at 200 from the sitting position. As a former infantryman I was downright scared for the boys. Granted they weren't interested in learning good fundamental positions and the use of a sling, they just wanted to pop rounds off. The army doesn't teach them that much anymore, reaction drills, clear the kill zone, etc. They used to only shoot out of foxholes with and without a sandbag for support. They need it all; primary marksmanship, basic position shooting, snap shooting, suppressing fire, all of it. Of course that costs time and money when they could be sitting in sensitivity training or diversity training.


Jack, we had one of those too. Was 3rd in command for the state. This wasn't real life, this was just a range training day. Simulated situation, pull up on a scene in patrol car and shooting is already going down, use vehicle for cover and return fire. Said high ranker gets out of the car with the door open, good position with the engine block between him and cover, and proceeds to shoot the alley search light and the hood up. Same guy was the one stating beforehand if you failed to qualify you go home without your uniform on! [smilie=1:

[Love Life]

You said Soldiers, not Marines. Everybody knows them dog faces can't shoot as well as us... :mrgreen:


Thank you Bad Water Bill for the kind words.

[Blacksmith]

At yesterday's Town Hall Meeting in Baltimore on Maryland's proposed new gun ban laws the Secretary of the Maryland State Police, Colonel Marcus L. Brown, incorrectly stated the AWB only dealt with fully automatic weapons and when questioned restated only guns capable of "burst fire". He either has not read the law or has no clue in the difference between semi auto and full auto.

Two police officers in the audience, in uniform, were asking each other what a thumb hole stock was (assault weapon feature) and a pro gun supporter was kind enough to explain it to them. They then said oh like the shooters on skis in the Olympics use.

[GabbyM]

Friend of mine once told me of being on a street car in Poland. He shared that street car with a drunken Soviet solder who as part of his issued uniform had a little pistol. This drunken *** hole proceeded to shoot out all the overhead lights in the car. Just for fun. And to intimidate a US soldier who had no gun.

Depending on your view. Did the Soviet soldier need to be disarmed? Or did the US soldiers need to be armed? Personally I’d want my gun but other more docile members of our society have differing views. Especially since they know they’d never wear any uniform.

IMHO what the libtards don’t understand is. Soviets had already made a decision to arm all there troops.
But then commies seam to be OK with that. Since it's there side that is armed. They are simply to stupid to understand why they feel that way.

[Col4570]

Here in the U K,Fully auto and Semi Auto Rifles above .22rf are banned.Pistols are banned.We shoot Bolt action,lever action,falling block,break Barrel and Military type rifles that need to be cycled by hand for each shot.No Pistols with modern ignition are allowed.Black Powder Pistols and Revolvers are very popular.Neverthe less Shooting is very much alive.The trend now Pistols where banned is to use Lever action Rifles in Pistol Calibres using the same ammo as the Pistols,.22,357,38special,44.40,45 long colt etc.I personaly like to shoot,45.70 Sharps,50.70 rolling block,32.40 Martini,45.70 Mauser bolt Action,577,Muzzle loader,Two 50 cal muzzle loaders,a32 cal Muzzle loader and a .22rf martini.I also shoot a variety of shotguns.The list is not to demonstrate what i have but to explain the limits to our sport.
All categories of firearm must be on a license both firearm and Shotgun permits required.
The greater part of Gun crime is with ilegaly held Arms,many from satelite states from the now defunct Soviet Union.

[GabbyM]

Very interesting Col4570:
I do note you used the term gun crime. As if guns commit crimes.
I’ve fallen victim to this myself. As after decades of propaganda the terminology sinks in.
As long as we allow them to invade the way we think they are winning. Plus they know this. Bunch of evil minions of Satan.

Aka
Gun related crime.
Gun violence.
Gun toting thugs.
Gun nuts.
Gun freaks.

We could go right through the alphabet to fill thousands of pages.

[Col4570]

GabbyM,yes i should have said,Crimes commited by someone using a Firearm.I agree that terminology is an asset to the politician who wishes to put a slant on a subject.
Regards.

[drklynoon]

As too the original posters question I can only assume what the thinking may be as to why LEO have an exemption and veterans do not. My assumption is that they have little understandings as to the duty of a LEO and do not respect the stress and environment that many work in. By this I mean to say that there is a possibility that they do not want to exempt Veterans for fear of undocumented cases of PTSD. If this is true it does illustrate the ignorance that most politicians are afflicted with when it comes to inner city crime and violence. I would imagine, LEO are just as prone to PTSD and related mental stress ailments as veterans. I am not an ex-LEO; however, I am a veteran and have witnessed the destructive forces that stress and extremem violence can put on the mind of a person. To think that people who have to deal with high stress and violence every day of their life and are not able to fully extract themselves from the situation are immune to stress related mental complications is offensive.

[Larry Gibson]

As a former LEO with 18 years in that business I would note that PSTD runs rampant in that profession also. Those officers who have to deal with the worst of humanity every day (some officers do but many don't....just as many Soldiers, Sailers and Marines see "action" but many more don't) are very subject to PSTD.

Larry Gibson

PS; I've seen a lot of Marines shoot....shot with them and trained with them.....and they are "legends in their own minds"..........typical Marines is all........not any better nor worse at shooting than Soldiers............

[Bad Water Bill]

larry

When I was in electricians school we had a boot marine constantly bragging. One day he said "and the marines have never retreated in their history". Wrong place and wrong class to make that statement.

The old marine sargent stood up and said "have you noticed that this sailor sitting next to me has NEVER bought a beer yet? When me and the last of the bleeding marines were RETREATING from Cho Son reservour I was one of the very last and this sailor had to jump in the water to save this retreating jarheads butt from drowning. We bleed just like any other human being.

Not knocking any marines as I have quite a few as friends and relatives and some can not tell. 8-)

I am glad they are on our side.

[Got-R-Did]

:kidding:LoveLife: have the range, steel, ammo, and time. Winner buys Dinner, and it will be my pleasure to pick up the tab.:2gunsfiring_v1:

[Love Life]

Sounds good. Is there enough wind in Kentucky to blame for pulled shots?

[Love Life]

Bad Water Bill- We have 3 Corpsman who can't buy a drink to save their lives if any of us are around. What they have done is above and beyond anything that could be asked of anybody. Two got out of the service back in 2008 and one is now a CPO. We always razzed them for being squids, puddle pirates, swabees, lesser men, and many other colorful (friendly) insults. In reality they were more Marine than a bunch of Marines I have come across. They humped what we humped + medical bags, slept where we slept, and had to put up with all of our griping and moaning. The most common medical advice was "Change your socks, drink water, and take some Motrin."

They were often overlooked for awards even though they did very heroic actions on too many occasions to recall. Their normal job is the stuff you read about in awards citations.

Sorry to get off track there, but your story just brought back some memories.

[cbrick]

PS; I've seen a lot of Marines shoot....shot with them and trained with them.....and they are "legends in their own minds"..........typical Marines is all........not any better nor worse at shooting than Soldiers......... Larry Gibson

Really? Unless things have changed radically since the 60's when I was in the USMC there is/was a huge difference in rifle training between the Marines and the Army.

I went through basic in the Marines with an army Sgt and Army rifle expert. At that time (don’t know about now) the Army qualified at 200 yards, the Marines at 500 yards. Go through Army boot camp regardless of how you qualify, qualify in the Marines or didn’t get out of boot camp. Far more stringent rifle requirements and training in the Marines according to that Sgt that went through both. That may have changed over the years but it was most certainly true back then.

Rick

[shdwlkr]

Lance the last time I asked a Marine yea not Army

I was told the Marines fire around 1500 rounds minimum and the Army now wait for it fires 150 live rounds the rest are done on have you guessed yet? a computer game! Confirmed later by some Army guys I know. When I was in we fired that many just to dirty our weapon then we got down to shooting. To qualify we shot at least 500 plus rounds and that was after 3 weeks of firing to get used to our weapon. We even did night firing and yes some did hit the bogalou switch and lit up the sky quite well. DI,s tried so hard to catch them but with 100 plus guys on the line and as soon as they ran to one area another would open up. Was so funny the range officer didn't like me because I was the only trainee that had live ammo all the time because I was the ammo truck driver and we had some folks stealing them so the order was given the drivers were to be armed at all times and if they needed to qualify then on each corner of the truck was a trainee with 20 live rounds to keep it safe until the driver was free to protect the truck again. Why me well I had the license, I could hit what I aimed at and I was easy to spot. I was 6 foot 4 inches and around 200 pounds hard to miss me and yes I could be heard over the sound of all those m16's going off another reason I got to be the ammo driver and I could really throw those boxes around back then. I was full of P & V too, officers didn't scare me.

When I was in the Army we trained on the M14, M16, a few of us got to use the M1 and M60 and even Ma Deuce. We burned through a whole lot of ammo. How do I know? Simple I was the trainee with the license so I got to pickup the 1000 pounds plus of ammo each time we went to the range and no we did not turn in any live rounds. One day at the range we found more live ammo than I brought out so we had to get rid of it and even the DI's got into the fun think of 100 young men on the line and another 150 plus behind them loading 20 round mags and letting it fly. Yea back then we only had 20 rounders. I was in on a study just how many it took to stop an agressor, lets just say that the first mag was not enough. I laughed my head off when the brass saw that little demonstration.
The original m16's were just plain junk when I got there we had A2's which where a little better but give me a break a 55 grain woodchuck round to fight with. The biggest thing the military did was provide cleaning kits and also to make sure if you are in wet climate the muzzle is down or a condom is on the muzzle. why because 5 drops of water down the pipe will mess up your day right nicely. Later on got to play some with the AK and for what it was it was one impressive firearm. We used to do demonstrations with it in muddy, sand silt filled trays and used corroded ammo. Do a quick flush with whatever water was available, same with the mag and load and fire. the water sprayed all over the place, that corroded ammo came out in pieces but it fired and you could actually pretty much keep it on target. Oh for the good old days when life seemed to be filled with excitement and no care for how stupid or dangerous the fun was. Now it is more like I want to be safe and just have some fun.

Tried to find a picture of one but failed they were bigger than a 3/4 but smaller than a 2 1/2ton but could you ever load them with stuff.

As to retired LEO's or military have a get out of ban privileges nope not right, everyone that can should be allowed to have what they are most comfortable with and can hit the target at different distances, conditions, weather, etc.

Back in the day I used to shoot at those plastic targets that Army liked so much and hit them all they out to 1000 meters today I am not sure I can even see some of them that far away but still do pretty good with a .338 win mag at 450-500 yards so maybe. Yes it was a borrowed one from a friend and he had the scope all setup but still at my age that is good I think. I was shooting at a 2 foot by 2 foot box and could make it jump every shot but one that was a flier and my fault all the way.

One thing I like about being out west there are ranges that are miles long we can go shoot on ours in my area is the military range and they have a nice big place for us old timers and even young to go shoot. Heck we even have a different attitude towards firearms they are not a dirty word here like back east.

[runfiverun]

so umm this whole divide and conquer this is or isn't working?

[Bad Water Bill]

Our corpse man was great. When it came time for shots he would challenge us. If you can hit me before I hold the empty thing up you win. Of course no one ever won.

One day in Gitmo a AGM 2 received orders to flight training school. A big party was held in celebration. The NEXT afternoon gunny was finally found. In his swim suit on the beach and out of his head with severe sun exposure. Since it was a Saturday he had not been missed. We got him back in his bunk while Scotty went to sickbay and mixed his secret WITCHES BREW. Scotty slathered the fool with the mess and then told the rest of us to SHUT UP about the whole affair. Sunday Gunny woke up for breakfast chow as if nothing had ever happened.

Scotty told the rest of us that was what they used for the marines that had been left behind during the invasion of the Pacific Islands and found days later.

Yes our medics are definitely a special breed unto themselves.

[Love Life]

so umm this whole divide and conquer this is or isn't working?

It is not working. Well at least not for me since I have a ton of respect for Police Officers.

This thread is turning out pretty good. All we need now are frosty mugs of COORS light to continue swapping the tales and BSing.

[quilbilly]

The restrictions on former military is perfectly understandable if you also understand Marxist revolutionary theory developed in the 50's and 60's in the U.S.

[bruce drake]

LL, Retire the Rocky Mountain Piss Water (Coors Light) and go find yourself to my house for some Fat Tires or a Moose Drool Brown Ale and we'll kick it back on the porch just fine! ;)

Besides, most people forget that Retired Servicemen still retain their rank and most of their responsibilities despite being a bit grayer and a bit wider in the beam than when they were part of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children ;)

[Larry Gibson]

Bad Water Bill

Don't take me wrong, I have freinds that are/were Marines. I am proud to have trained with, served with and trained Marines. I also have trained with, served with and trained a lot of Soldiers. As a Weapons NCO in SF I got to do a lot of weapons training with not only US Soldiers and Marines but those from many other countries as well. I spent 3 years from '07 through '10 facilitating training and training Marines and Soldiers fro Quantico, Camp LeJune, a couple training areas in Virginia to Camp Pendleton and it Mississippi, Hawaii and Alaska. I even did a 30 day NTC rotation in support of a 5th Marine Battalion before they deployed to Iraq. There was lots of tactics, pyrotecnics (real ones...not the mickey mouse compressed air stuff) and weapons training with numerous foreign weapons. Trained everything from REMFs, artillery, support usnits, MPs to grunts to Force Recon. I've watched the infantry, support units, sniper trainee's and snipers shoot/train at Quantico, LeJune and Pendleton....... made it my business to watch them as I'm interested. I'm here to tell you that regardless of "opinions" I'd match regular Army infantry against Marine infantry any time and won't bet a thin dime on on which might be the better "shots". I will bet that the farther you get away from infantry the less the shooting ability is with both services. I've seen too much of both to bet on either one. Marines are "legends in their own minds".......they have to be to do what their mission dictates and what they are initially trained for. I have seen their boot camp and the rifle qual with the M16 differs little in intensity or difficulty from the Army basic rifle marksmanship. Don't bet your thn dime on which shoots best....as you just might lose.......I have several times betting on both........personally I'm glad both are on our side........I'll buy 'em a drink when ever I can.......you too.......

Larry Gibson

[DIRT Farmer]

We have family shooting matches, the corp vs the army, age sometimes wins aginst youth and ability. (ha)
I have a nephew who wanted to join the USMC and requested basic at the Island because they are the baddest. He took a lot of flack from his cousins for getting the info from movies.
He had never fired any gun before and his recruiting SGT told him not to let any one teach him as the USMC was the best there is in teaching riflery. He came home from boot and the boys ask him how it went on the range. He got quite sheepish and said something about boloing. The boys started hurughing him and pointed out that I had tought them to shoot.
He must have ran into a simular recruiting SGT that I had in '69 who promised to get me in the USMC as a medic. So much for being young and dumb.

[Olevern]

The reason is purely political and cynical. They don't want retired officers up in arms and actively embarrassing them in the media. Purely a bone to diffuse an embarrassing scene. The real aim is to get them all.
Besides, what could be more harmless than a bunch of old worn out cops who can't shoot straight??;)
Retired PD here....and I don't buy it for a minute.

I know quite a few ticked off retired cops who are somewhat less than pleased by cuts by the govt. entities in their pensions (broken promises/contracts). The states spend the money they were supposed to contribute to the pension funds and then, when the money is not there cry their broke.

Then, for those who still have cost of living increases built into their pensions (I did have a 60% cost of living as part of my pension, state unilaterally decided "nope, we ain't doin' that anymore), the govt. fudges the cost of living numbers to cheat retirees out of what they agreed to. Don't you know we haven't had any inflation for a decade? Don't know how my fuel and food costs have gotten to the place they are now if we have no inflation.

Yeah, the govt doesn't want the peasants to have guns just like the Czar didn't want the peasants to have guns and for the same reasons.

[Boyscout]

I don't mind being corrected. But my thought about policeman having more bad shootings than civilians may not be the fault of the LEO. A civilian in his home knows what belongs and what doesn't, he has seen the situation develop from the start and knows the players, and he knows who needs shooting. An LEO is called to a situation that has already gone south and the shooting has already begun. I know if I get involved in a self defense issue and have to call the police, I am going to neutralize the threat or flee to a safe place and my gun will not be on my person when they arrive on the scene so as not to be mistaken for the problem I just took out.