question for those of you in law enforcement

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I know that a number of you are current or former law enforcement

the Milwaukee county sheriff made a statement last week that citizens should think about training and securing a gun because simply calling 911 was not the best option because response time just wasn't going to get an officer to you door fast enough to help you , he also said some where in his statement that it was never the best option because thinsg happen in seconds and it takes at least minutes to respond

well this caused a fire storm of political officials saying it just isn't so

Clarke could have said it differently and that putting this message out in a 30 second radio spot got a lot of attention

most have twisted it trying to say he is calling for vigilanti justice , he was doing no such thing he was saying the people the fathers mothers have a duty to protect their families a duty they should take seriously , that goes beyond a phone call.

that all besides the point

what I am asking is Do most LEO's leave their wives a gun and have they trained them in it's use when they can't be there?

most I know do but I mostly know them because of their gun hobby
in your departments you know who are and who are not the gun people do most have a plan with their families that involves more than just hiding and waiting for help

also many are saying a 12 hour class is no replacement for all the training an officer goes thru to be able to deal with a situation , and while i agree with that my point is that civilian Mom isn't trying to be a cop she is taking the kids to the bedroom locking the door and preparing to shoot if the bad guy comes thru that door while waiting on the line with 911 dispatch or some other type of situation but there is a big difference in the skill needed between a civilian trying to defend them selves and the training to deal with police situations professorially.

a civilian needs to know the primary laws of gun ownership and carry , how to safely handle and carry , and a proficiency with their gun out to about 15 feet, and how to cooperate with law enforcement when they do get there. and that doesn't take 2 years in the academy

[x101airborne]

Now that I am home a lot, I dont worry as much as I used to, but I always left a 12 gauge double full of regular Wal-Mart dove loads in the bedroom. It also had a lace on leather 4 shell cuff sewn on to the buttstock. And I did worry a lot, but with her hunting and shooting with me, I worry a lot less now.
Sure he could have said it differently. Poor form, in my opinion. But I think his intentions were pure. Hope it gets worked out soon.

[DLCTEX]

However you say it, the truth remains. Typical Liberal method. Don't argue facts, just attack the messenger and detract from the truth.

[Jailer]

People don't seem to realize that the police are not there to protect them. They are there to tape off the crime scene, investigate and apprehend a suspect.

You need to take it upon yourself to defend yourself with any means necessary until the police can arrive. All the anti's want is to take away the most effective and efficient means of doing so.

[2HighSpeed]

When you ask this, I think of something I was tought when in the fire department.

You keep fire extinguishers in your home right? The fire dept can not get there at the drop of a dime if your home is on fire.

You keep a 1st aid kit in your home or car, correct? EMS cant get there at the drop of a dime if your injured.

Why would you choose anything different when it comes to home or personal protection? Just like the fire dept, The police cant get there at the drop of a dime either.

3 things I always have in my home and my truck.... My gun, A fire extinguisher and A good first aid kit.

[crawfobj]

When you ask this, I think of something I was tought when in the fire department.

You keep fire extinguishers in your home right? The fire dept can not get there at the drop of a dime if your home is on fire.

You keep a 1st aid kit in your home or car, correct? EMS cant get there at the drop of a dime if your injured.

Why would you choose anything different when it comes to home or personal protection? Just like the fire dept, The police cant get there at the drop of a dime either.

3 things I always have in my home and my truck.... My gun, A fire extinguisher and A good first aid kit.

This is the most concise, rational way to say this that I have seen. I'll be stealing this. Thanks for sharing.

[jonas302]

Well said highspeed I have full confidence in our local fire police and rescue but it takes a long time to drive 7 miles out here and there a sure lot of places alot further off the path than me

[geargnasher]

YOU are always the first responder in your own life, that's why our founding fathers sought to protect the means of securing our inalienable rights.

Use the phone for cleanup, i.e. doctor, lawyer, cop, firemen, insurance agent, etc.

Gear

[2HighSpeed]

I have full confidence in myself. I was in the Fire Dept back home and I was also a EMT back home. I have seen and treated many things from burns, gun shot wounds, births, falls, drownings, smoke inhalation, etc... I know if there is a situation in my home, I will probably be the most sane and rational one. However, If someone tries to break into my home, It is no holds barred and I will do anything in my power to protect my family. Even if it means shooting someone. Im not one of them pull the trigger once type people no matter how hard I try. I always unload completely before I set it down. So that might look bad if someone invades my personal space.



Well said highspeed I have full confidence in our local fire police and rescue but it takes a long time to drive 7 miles out here and there a sure lot of places alot further off the path than me

[2HighSpeed]

Well said!!!


you are always the first responder in your own life, that's why our founding fathers sought to protect the means of securing our inalienable rights.

Use the phone for cleanup, i.e. Doctor, lawyer, cop, firemen, insurance agent, etc.

Gear

[smokeywolf]

With several family members in law enforcement, I was always careful. More than once I heard, "I'm gonna get you! I'm gonna find out where you live."
So,,, Extra security lighting, extra window locks, dog, chemical mace, plus a couple of other surprises. Unlisted phone number changed every 6 months or so, protection plates on the cars.

Maybe the Sheriff could have been a bit more diplomatic with his wording. However, his public service announcement shows that he takes his responsibility to the public seriously and puts their well-being ahead of political correctness.

Even back in the 70s it was not unusual to spend more than half your shift writing reports rather than patrolling. First paperwork, then prevention.

Old saying... "A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone" applies here.

On top of being the kind of person you would want watching your back, Andrea is a wordsmith.

Gear and 2HighSpeed both described what it takes to be able to live to tell your side of the story instead of having the Coroner testify at your assailant's trial as to your exact cause of death.
You can be sure though, that whether you dispatch your assailant or he murders you, the news media will declare with absolute certainty that it was done with one of those evil "assault weapons".

smokeywolf

[Rooster59]

Thanks highspeed. If you don't mind I'll be repeating that.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

thank you gentlemen

smoke detector - check
fire extinguisher - check
first aid kit - check
pistol in my holster - check

life insurance - check

I don't want to use any of them but i would much rather use the gun in my belt than to have the life insurance pay out. hey maybe my agent should give me a discount for that.

my wife used to go shooting with me a little before we got married , then she wasn't interested for a long time 12 years about a year ago i got her out to the range with an assortment of pistols , she decided she liked the s&w in 40s&w so i started calling it her gun she shoots a lite load with a 170 gr lee tc so i am feeling better about her getting behind it and practicing again.

she is a decent shot , first time out she had a man silhouette target , she preferred to blow the targets groin out , while that is great fun for her when others are at the range , doesn't every guy cringe when a lady shoots the groin of a target out with a nice little group , we had the range to ourselves and it is best to practice and make habit of always shooting the center , it leaves more room to miss

she had been out a few more times for family range day

she still doesn't want to think about it but said she will do what she has to if it comes to it and we leave it at that.

[Got-R-Did]

The Sheriff merely stated the truth, and semantics aside, he was absolutely correct.
HighSpeed; well said, Brother!
Thoughtful thread and one I am glad I read. Thank You G.C.P.
Oh, and the groin is actually a good place to aim; there are two femoral arteries right there, and a bullet that impacts the hip joint will put a man down as quickly as a city bus. But realistically, she should indeed aim for center of available mass. As for my Wife while I was on duty, I used to worry but when we had our Daughter the attitude changed. She learned to shoot my back up G26 (and claimed it as her's) and knows Home Defense Protocol. If anyone expresses a need to "drop by" our house in my absence, I remind them to "call ahead" as any unexpected/unrecognized vehicle is apt to encounter profound scrutiny.
Got-R-Did.

[41 mag fan]

When you ask this, I think of something I was tought when in the fire department.

You keep fire extinguishers in your home right? The fire dept can not get there at the drop of a dime if your home is on fire.

You keep a 1st aid kit in your home or car, correct? EMS cant get there at the drop of a dime if your injured.

Why would you choose anything different when it comes to home or personal protection? Just like the fire dept, The police cant get there at the drop of a dime either.

3 things I always have in my home and my truck.... My gun, A fire extinguisher and A good first aid kit.

A very good quote 2HS

I stole it and sent it to all my contacts in my email....

[2wheelDuke]

I'm an officer, and I believe in the saying that I'm only a few minutes away when seconds count. I live and work in an endless suburban/urban sprawl. Even here, I've had times where it took several minutes to get backup to me. And that's being directly on the radio, calling 911 could add at least 30 seconds or a minute to the response time. That's if you're even able to get a call out if things are going really badly.

I remember some talk of a court ruling that absolved police departments of liability for failing to protect people.

I have no problem defending the citizens, but I have to know there's a problem first, then I have to get there. I heard a saying once in a safety briefing for a whitewater rafting trip. They said that if you go overboard, you are expected to play an active role in your own rescue. Any good cop wants to save people, but the odds are stacked against up getting there in time.

I'm not sure about other cops, because I know some are liberal and even anti-gun. But I do know that my family has the means to take care of itself when I'm out on patrol.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

it occurred to me , back when we were researching things prior to our concealed carry legislation , one of the things we looked at were the requirements to be a armed security guard .
in Wisconsin the standard for security guards to be armed was a annual qualification target , I really do not think that the people talking about how 12 hours training is not adequate realize that the armed security that is all around them has so little required training and in reality the private security being what it is and what people want to pay for it ,often that little training , but a uniform make all the difference right.

[Gar]

I have no problem with the Milwaukee county sheriff statement. I am very concerned with the fire storm released by other law enforcement people.
Do they not know they have no duty to protect the public?
The courts have been stating this for years.

Just one of many court decesion,
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

[1Shirt]

I like Gears clean up statement! Just pure common sense!
1Shirt!

[Rick Hodges]

The firestorm from other agencies is from the chiefs and high ranking administrators. Chiefs are almost always political appointees and fight in the political process to get funding for their departments. It is hard to argue with councilmen for more funds while abdicating the responsibility to deter and protect the citizenry. The other high mucky mucks are next in line hopefuls for the job and spend their time currying favor from politicians and following closely behind the chief. The name of the game is getting the biggest share of the public dollar.

Of course the sheriff was right in what he said. Personally I did not leave a loaded weapon with my wife while I was away or at work. She has neither the temperament, ability, nor dispositionon to use one. Good locks, communication and prayer was my alternative. Not every one is capable of using weaponry.

[cbrick]

Of course the Milwaukee Sheriff was correct. As to using more tact or stating it differently sometimes the truth just needs to be said flat out, any political correctness about it would as always simply dilute or eliminate the truth.

I spent 34 years working film & TV locations, there are always police hired for the location for security, crowd control & traffic control. In Los Angeles these are almost always retired LAPD officers. On occasion some will work a location on their days off before retiring. In 34 years I have met and talked with hundreds of these officers and to a person they were pro gun, pro Second Amendment. The only exception were a few that didn't seem to care one way or the other but none were anti gun. As was mentioned already the anti gun cops the left always drags in front of a TV camera are the appointed top brass, appointed by liberal politicians, the same politicians they must go to with tail between legs and hat in hand to get funding. Far and away the rank & file cops are little different than most of us here, they just put their life on the line far more often.

Maybe more Sheriff's will come out now say the same.

rick

[2HighSpeed]

Nope, I dont mind


Thanks highspeed. If you don't mind I'll be repeating that.

[MtGun44]

You have exactly the amount of security that you bring with you in most situations. The police work
to catch criminals, but usually this is only after they have committed a crime. If you were the victim,
this post-crime work is not of any personal value, it only has value to the extent that it prevents
another person from becoming a victim. Police work is of value to society at large, but of much
less value to individual victims most of the time. Sometimes they arrive in time to stop a crime,
happy to say. Often they cannot, sad to say.

It has always been this way. Putting your fingers in your ears and saying "NAH-NAH-NAH" real loud
does not change it, but this seems to be most people's "plan".

I have put out two serious fires with immediately available fire extinguishers. I have treated injuries
with first aid a number of times, and keep a very comprehensive first aid kit available. Self defense
is pretty much the same thing, as stated, and I am trained and prepared there, too. Hope to
never need it, but I am prepared.

Bill

[K7addict]

To answer the original question, Yes, My wife has a 12ga semi-auto & an HK USP 40 at her immediate disposal if needed. She has to practice shooting & train in reloading and malfunction drills with me at least every few weeks. I have trained her to defend her position from the most advantageous line of sight that offers some concealment (walls aren't much for real cover) while still maintaining some concept of target recognition and discrimination in a high stress situation. But if an intruder with ill intent decides to advance deep enough into our home that he encounters her position, then he has largely dictated his own outcome. She has the means and determination to defend herself and our infant son if ultimately necessary. (And of course to utilize local law enforcement during the situation)

I really do have great faith in my fellow citizens, however we do not live in a fairy tale land where one simply says, "That could never happen to me" or "Things like that don't happen in this neighborhood". I strongly agree with many here who believe that you are your first line of defense. As an LEO who works in a very violent & crime ridden city, I wish nothing more than to protect the helpless, old people, kids, those who were never taught to protect themselves but it's just not possible to always be right there when something bad happens.

I enjoy teaching my residents about improving home security, having situational awareness and moving about with confidence. The wolf preys on the sheep for a reason. It's just too bad the Sheepdog isn't always in the right place at the right moment.

[knifemaker]

I am retired from 30 years in law enforcement. My wife was trained in defensive use of firearms, my two sons started shooting at 4 years of age. All 6 of my grandchildren are very good shots, even the 8 year old grandaughter.

As a firearms instructor for my dept. we used to put on "Ladies Day Shoots" to train women in the laws involving deadly force and firearms training. Those classes would fill within the first 24 hours of 25 women per class. Most of those ladies went on to get their concealed weapons permit, which I also was in charge of.
My 30 years was all street time, not flying a desk, retired as a detective Sgt. I have always been a cop that will tell you that we can not protect you and your family 24 hours around the clock and that you would be wise to learn yourself how to use a firearm and be informed of the laws concerning it's use.

Another point that is not heard in the newspapers. For every criminal that the cops shoot, there is 3 criminals that were shot by citizens in a legal self defense case. Something to think about concerning your family's protection. Bottom line, get a gun, learn how to use it very well, and be a responsible gun owner that is capable of protecting yourself and family when us cops can not get there in time.

[KCSO]

Actually my father in law trained my wife starting at age 7. He had the outmoded idea that everyone regardless os sex should be able to defend themselves. My wife demanded her own gun before we were married, and has had one on the nightstand for the last 43years. In 1973 a prowler almost peed his pants looking down the barrel of her gun.

[starmac]

Growing up there were not a lot of guns in our house. Dad had what he needed, but that was it. He had a twelve gauge and a 22. Where we lived you could take any available game with that pair. As far as I know Mom never hunted or shot for sport, but as far back as I can remember she had her own shotgun.

[Blacksmith]

One day the manufacturing plant I worked at had a small fire. All the available supervisors and managers rushed to the location, I was the only one that picked up a fire extinguisher on the way. You need the right tool for the job when job needs doing.

[km101]

To answer the original questions: Yes and Yes. Why would you not have firearms for defensive purposes in the home? I dont know why this would even be questioned. EVERY home should have the means to defend it. Makes no difference whether it is LE or civilian. Law enforcement can only respond after the fact. That is too late to matter to the victim. They are already injured, robbed, dead or whatever. Everyone should have the means to prevent them from BECOMING a victim.

The average response time for LE in the major Texas cities is 4.5 minutes from the time the call is received. This response time grows exponentially the further you get from a major city. So it should be evident that the police or sheriff's officers cant protect you. They are too few and too far away. You have to take responsibility for your own safety and defense, and this means having the firearms and training to protect you and yours. No one else can.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

To answer the original questions: Yes and Yes. Why would you not have firearms for defensive purposes in the home? I dont know why this would even be questioned. EVERY home should have the means to defend it. Makes no difference whether it is LE or civilian. Law enforcement can only respond after the fact. That is too late to matter to the victim. They are already injured, robbed, dead or whatever. Everyone should have the means to prevent them from BECOMING a victim.

The average response time for LE in the major Texas cities is 4.5 minutes from the time the call is received. This response time grows exponentially the further you get from a major city. So it should be evident that the police or sheriff's officers cant protect you. They are too few and too far away. You have to take responsibility for your own safety and defense, and this means having the firearms and training to protect you and yours. No one else can.

I completely agree i was just making sure I wasn't out in right field , I don't get why so many police agencies push back at the idea that people should responsibly defend themselves and home.

It seams hypocritical to tell Joe public to pay no attention to that , while making sure ones own family has it covered. maybe it is the distrust in Joe and Jane public cause they consistently see the few % of bad joe and jane public.

Maybe it's the idea that anyone could do anything "responsibly " without a dozen government regulations pertaining to what responsible is . but most people want to be safe and given the training they can be ,

My wife took to a 40S&W pistol so it is now "her gun" it is kept available with 14 round mag in it .

[km101]

Pete, that is great. Every home should have a setup where she has "her gun", and she is proficient and comfortable with it That's how it is in my home too! Most current and former LEO that I know feel that way. Even though it is contrary to current thinking in Washington, everyone should be responsible for their own safety and protection. No one else will or can assulme that responsibility.

[TXGunNut]

My favorite is "when seconds count help is only minutes away". I'm at the least populous edge af my county and a 911 call is seldom answered in under 15 minutes and many times much longer. I'm an ex-LEO and my GF isn't a big fan of guns but she's not afraid to make one go boom if need be.
Like most here I'm an independant DIY'er; I cast my own boolits, load my own ammo and if need be will shoot my own bad guys. Fax machine is out of commision but if they want to e-mail the reports I'll get a good start on them before they pull in the driveway, mebbe even have coffee started.

[smokeywolf]

TXGunNut,

You're a man after my own heart.

Fellow LEO was at home one night. Laying in bed watching TV. Got up to get a drink; stepped out his bedroom door and looking down the hall, caught a glimpse of movement in the living room. He ducked back into the bedroom, grabbed his duty weapon off the nightstand, walked out to the living room and ordered a teenager with a pair of socks on his hands to drop to the floor and assume the position. He cuffed him and called the city PD to come pick him up. He was sipping on a scotch by the time the PD knocked on the door.
Kid turned out to be the son of a secretary to one of the sheriff's office Commanders.

smokeywolf

[Rooster]

To those people who think that law enforcement is there to protect you:

South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed.433 (1856)
Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958);
Ne Casek v. City of Los Angeles, 233 Cal.App.2d 131, 43 Cal.Rptr. 294 (1965)
Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1968);
Silver v. City of Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (S.Ct. Minn. 1969)
Susman v. City of Los Angeles, et al., 269 Cal.App.2d 803, 75 Cal.Rptr. 240 (1969)
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E. 2d 871 (Ind.Ct. of Ap. 1971);
Antique Arts Corp. v. City of Torrence, 39 Cal.App.3d 588, 114 Cal.Rptr. 332 (1974)
Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal.App.3d 6, 120 Cal.Rptr. 5 (1975)
Sapp v. City of Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla.Ct. of Ap. 1977);
Weutrich v. Delia, 155 N.J. Super 324, 326, 382 A.2d 929, 930 (1978);
Warren v. District of Columbia (444 A.2d 1, 1981)
Chapman v. City of Philadelphia, 434 A.2d 753 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1981);
Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894 (S.Ct. Cal. 1982);
Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 61 (7th Cir. 1982).
Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1983);
Morris v. Musser, 478 A.2d 937 (1984);
Westbrooks v. State, 173 Cal.App.3d 1203, 219 Cal.Rtr. 674 (1985)
Calogrides v. City of Mobile, 475 So.2d 560 (S.Ct. A;a. 1985);
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 109 S.Ct. 998 (1989)
Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 (N.C. App. 1989)
Barillari v. City of Milwaukee, 533 N.W.2d 759 (Wis. 1995)
Ford v. Town of Grafton, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998)
Castle Rock v. Gonzales (04-278) 545 U.S. 748 (2005)

[tward]

I have great respect for LEO's but they can't be everywhere. As for empty the firearm at an intruder I fully agree! We had a local case where a a thug threatened a man's family and the man shot him 5 times with a 12gauge. Some in the da office why 5 times? My theory, he ran out of ammo!
I always tell people when they say they missed me that they need to reload! Tim

[10x]

Now that I am home a lot, I dont worry as much as I used to, but I always left a 12 gauge double full of regular Wal-Mart dove loads in the bedroom. It also had a lace on leather 4 shell cuff sewn on to the buttstock. And I did worry a lot, but with her hunting and shooting with me, I worry a lot less now.
Sure he could have said it differently. Poor form, in my opinion. But I think his intentions were pure. Hope it gets worked out soon.

"The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. " Trudeau, Pierre Elliott December 21, 1967,