Position sensitivity of 2400 in 8x57

[Depreacher]

Well friends, a cool front came in so the 'ol preacher went to the range. I had 10 rounds each of 18gr., 19gr., and 20gr. of 2400 behind a lee 324-175. My mould casts a .3248 x .3149 boolit. I size them to .3235. At 100 yds. from a semi-steady benchrest I shot 3 targets. One for each load. At 18grs. the powder at the rear of case (I loaded with barrel in up position, and gingerly lowered to sandbags) shot 7 1/4" lower than the other group with the rifle loaded horizontally and semi-rapidely (which may have moved the powder slightly forward, rather than resting evenly on the case wall). Using the same method, the 19gr. load had a difference of 10 1/4". The last target shot with 20gr. of 2400 had a difference of 9 1/4". Now, before you scream Blasphemy, let me explain. Disclaimer:This was with my 1943 battlefield relic K98 sporter in original 8x57mm (would make a nice lamp!!!) Timney trigger, slightly peppered bore, topped with a wallyworld Simmons 3x9x40 scope ($40). The groups were a disappointing 2 to 3" c to c, just one of those days! I measured approx. c to c to c to c.Your results may be completely different with 2400. I am almost ready to try a filler. 4759 gives similar results IN MY RIFLE! Forgot to take Chrony, so don't know fps.

[MGySgt]

Well Preacher - I also went to the range today (yes it cooled down to 90 here in good ole virginnie)

shot 3 round each of 45/70 all with filler 430gr GC MM sized 460+ at 100 yards.

2400
26.0 = 3 round clover leaf about a quater of the holes overlapping.
26.5 = 1in c-c
27.0 = 1.25in c-c

But I use a filler - dacron. Didn't chrono them will tomorrow if the weather stays nice.

But I am going to shoot them in reverse order - 27.0 - 26.5 and then 26.0. Didn't wait long between groups looked like rain and the barrel was getting a little warm towards the end.

I like dacron especially in my 45/90 and 3031!

Drew

[JohnH]

2 to 3" groups from a WWII battle rifle with cast boolits is not, at least to me, bad shooten. A simple increase in diameter or a different powder could make some difference, but from what I'm hearing, you ain't doin' too bad. You may want to try a few low doses of 4198 to see what happens.

[jh45gun]

2400 should not be that position sensative I just shoot it as is with out the tipping ect and have had good luck with it it has been my powder of choice. I also agree on the 3" at 100 yards. Some guns like the K31 and the Swedish Mauser will do a lot better. Some other milsurps may do better as well but 3 inches is still good at a 100 yards expecially with a salt and pepper bore that I would guess is a bit larger than when it started out as a new bore. Or you may try a other powder and find a load that shoots better that your gun likes better than the 2400. I like the 2400 as it is a miserly powder that is not known for being position sensative and a good cast powder so that is all I use and so far I have been happy with it. Killed two deer last year using 19 grains in a 308 Encore pistol so it cannot be all bad. :)

[Maineboy]

Preacher, I don't have any experience with 2400 in the 8X57, but I gotta agree with the boys, 3" groups from an old battlefield relic is pretty good shootin. I use the same boolit alot in my 4 8mms. When I opened up my sizer to .325, which is the diameter of the boolits as they drop from the mould, groups shrunk.

[Bass Ackward]

I am almost ready to try a filler. 4759 gives similar results IN MY RIFLE!

CBP,

There is a lot of room here for assumption. If you want to know for sure, repeat the same loads but reverse the shooting order. Fire them all exactly the same way that you did until you get to the 18 grain load.

Then fire 5 of the 18 grains tipped up and 5 just like you did the others. See what that tells you. It may be that you need filler, .... and it may not.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Allliant 2400 is my powder of choice in several bottleneck rifle cartridges, including 8 X 57. I use no filllers and haven't noticed any position sensitivity. Serveral 8 X 57 rifles from brand new to well worn have shot very well for me. My favorite load is 19.0 gr. 2400 and either the Lee 175 or the Buckshot designed Lee 240. Both of them will shoot into two to three inches at 100 yd. even with issue sights, twenty-mule team triggers and geezer eyes. You are not going to do any better with a new factory rifle, factory ammo, and the open sights that come with the rifle.

[Depreacher]

Dear friends, Don't ask me why, but the K98 sporter did indeed strike back with a vengeance this morning. After all the maligning and excuses I made for it yesterday, I can understand why!!! I had been using 21 and 22 grains of 4759 with only fair results ( 2 to 3") so was going to go higher, but, I saw where someone else was using 19 gr. of 4759. I then loaded 10/19gr. loads,10/19.5, and only 4/20gr.(out of brass) loads. At 6:45AM the first five shot measured only 1 3/8"c-c. Wowee! The next 5 shots, on another target, went into an astounding (well, for me anyway) 1 1/16" c-c. Both groups will be framed before sunset today. The next group we will NOT discuss. The group after that one, we will NOT discuss (hey, I was still shook). Finally with the 4 rounds of 20gr. left, I mistakenly shot 2 shots on one target, and two on the target just to its right (wait until you're 62). I made a mess, but tried to interpolate the 4 rounds as best I could, and estimated the group to be about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4". I normally have 3 targets placed horizontally on the cardboard as I'm too cheap to own a spotting scope, and too lazy to walk 100yds. after each group. As I lovingly placed my K98 back in the safe, with it's Nazi eagles grinning, I could have sworn my trusty "ol 03A3 backed away from it just a bit. Still using Lee 324-175 boolits weighing 170.0 gr. I measure to +- 1/10 gr, so lightest and heaviest will be only 2/10 gr. apart, at worst. If I ever get to one of the big shoots you guys have Don't expect groups like this. This was definately one of "those days". If I shoot a 4 incher, that will be about normal. I will now take 98% of the blame for such, and not blame this rifle or its wal-mart special scope. All shots were with powder positioned at back of case. THANKS for the replys to my first post. What a great bunch of shooters.

[BruceB]

Reckon I'm the odd man out here. That's OK, I'm used to it!

Although 2400 and 5744, among others, are reputed to be position INsensitive, I have proven to my own satisfaction that although these powders (among others) may be useable when loaded loose with lots of airspace in large-ish cases, they work better for ME when dacron fill is used to immobilize the charge.

With the fill installed, I typically get better groups and better consistency in velocity, and lower extreme spreads. I know it's a bit more involved than not using a filler, but my methods for loading are refined now to the point that a round takes less than a minute on my turret press from empty-case to loaded-with-dacron-installed, and that ain't bad in my book. The reason I know that the filler works so well is that I have loaded literally hundreds of recipes both with-and-without dacron, and fired them in comparison to each other on the same range outings. The figures have told me the score.

From habit, I STILL do a lot of direct-comparison loadings with fill and without, but the results just keep confirming my current opinion. There are a few occasions wherein the filler does NOT make a difference, or even turns in an inferior result, but those are rare occurrences indeed. Dacron is one of my most valuable "tools", if I can call it that.

[Depreacher]

THANKS maineboy, My mould also drops at .325, so I might just pan lube twenty or so and load them as cast. The rem. brass is so thin, it'll probably chamber just fine. Many thanks to the other replys from other shooters. As I said, this was in MY RIFLE, not yours. I am not running down anyones favorite load, or powder. After 3 targets in a row, with similar results, I had to conclude that it did make a difference in MY RIFLE, not yours. I applaude your good results with 2400 and am still playing with it. Will try diff. boolit dia. and maybe seating depth. That's what this forum is all about, our swapping ideas and results with one another for the benefit of all. THANKS AGAIN, cbp

[Depreacher]

THANKS for the advice BruceB, I will have to try it. cbp

[felix]

ALL powders are position sensitive and will be obviously shown if you shoot up and down with a 60 degree swing, 30 down, 30 up, and at 10 down, 10 up, etc. When you get to plus or minus 5 degrees, then you might say some powders are insensitive. Naturally, a case full of powder, or powder against the primer at all times, will exhibit little or no position problems. It is always best to have the case full of something so the primer sees the very same "compression" on each shot. ... felix

[Bob S]

... is a relative thing. I think any powder will ignite and burn differently if intentionally oriented differently in the case for successive rounds. I resist the use of Dacron with 2400 wherever I can simply because it is an extra step and I'm a lazy sort. Although I don't ake any great pains in positioning the powder, I think my shooting routine does that inherently. My primary shooting interest is NRA across-the-course (XC) and the CMP vintage military rifle courses. I don't shoot off the bench, always in position in a sling (except for standing), and the courses always include some rapid fire. Besides, tipping the muzzle of a loaded rifle up so it could discharge over the range baffles can get you quickly escorted to gate on some ranges.

After noticing some differences in POI between slow and rapid fire strings, I changed my slow fire routine from closing the bolt gingerly to closing the bolt SMARTLY as I would in rapid fire. As the cartridge comes to a screeching halt against the shoulder of the chamber, the powder all gets shoved forward against the base of the bullet, no matter where it started out before the bolt was closed. Now I see no difference in POI between slow and rapid fire strings, and groups are as good as ever.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[felix]

Bob, that is the correct way, and I prefer that over a barrel raise per shot. However, this way would require a very good powder and primer match-up. Be very leary with finely grained powders which are hard to ignite. ... felix

[StarMetal]

All this is why I never got onto shooting pistol powders in rifle cartridges. I don't shoot cast because it's economical, well I do for the bullets, but not the powder. I've found good loads with rifle powders that fill enough of the case up. If I don't, I use a filler, after all if I'm not to lazy to reload to begin with, I can do an extra step.

Joe

[Patrick L]

I shoot cast bullets in my 03A3 for NRA Highpower, and I do it with 2400. For years I used a tuft of dacron, as I feared powder positioning would affect my groups in the rapid fire stages, in which of course there is no time to "orient" the case position. Then I read a little blurb in The Fouling Shot, the CBA periodical, that recommended enlarging the flashhole of your EXCLUSIVELY CAST BULLET CASES so as to improve ignition of lighter charges without resorting to fillers. I couldn't tell any difference in group sizes (that is to say the loads with enlarged flash holes and no filler shot just as tight as the ones with filler when shot in a rapid fire string) so I stopped using filler. Since I reload on a progressive press that was just fine with me, as I figure it is easier to prep a case once than to remember to add that little tuft of filler between each cycle of the machine. Plus, there is debate about filler causing ringed chambers that has not been resolved, at least to my satisfaction. I will say I never had a problem with the filler, but I was always uneasy.

My memory doesn't recall the drill bit size recommended, but I could look it up in my reloading notes. The article did stress that cases with modified flash holes should never be used for standard jacketed loads though, but that was not an issue for me. My cast cases are segregated and marked.

[felix]

Proper powder ignition is everthing! Anyway this can be done should be done. Nothing wrong with altering flash holes, keeping in mind which primers (power wise) are going to be used. I personally would like to have some cases made with smaller holes! Dick Casull finally got the light! ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

You say nothing wrong with enlarging flash holes, but go on to say you would prefer smaller ones....why? I have an idea as to why, but await your answer.

Joe

[swheeler]

Preacher; glad you liked the 19 grs 4759 and the 175 Lee. I use poly filler with several powders and in several cartridges, in some results are dramatic, others not so good. If you have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3 take a look at page 74, effect of wad vs no wad. I can tell you that the difference can be like night and day with some combinations, although I have not found 4759 in 8mm to be one of them. On your rifle is the headspace in spec, fireing pin protrusion between .050 and .060, and mainspring up to spec? Several years ago I had erroniously determined that Rem 9.5 primers were no good in a 30-06 rifle, very large ext spreads, federals worked fine? I changed mainspring in the rifle and all primers worked fine, and still do. Don't buy into the hype of headspacing off of a cast bullet engraving, headspace on the datum line of the brass, necksize or partial full-lenght size your brass, make it fit your chamber as closly as possible. Good luck.
Scooter

[felix]

Joe, these short cases need less primer, especially the pistol cases. Primers tend to dislodge the boolits when the boolit is too close. There is more boolit holding power with a tight case, much more so than the holding power gained by crimping. A powerful primer will overcome a crimp in short order. Powerful primers for long cases, longer than 06 cases, for example. ... felix

[waksupi]

Joe, I have thoughts on smaller flash holes. Look at a muzzleloader nipple. The nipple has a small hole to work properly. A larger hole doesn't direct the flame into a concentrated flame jet, as does a smaller one. So the smaller flash hole, will direct more heat, with a cooler primer.

[StarMetal]

Ric,

Plus on a muzzle loader a larger hole would blow too much gas and flame back throught the nipple. Those caps aren't very sturdy things. I'm sure most us muzzleloaders have blown a hammer back to at least half cock from pressure back throught the nipple hole.

Joe

[Depreacher]

Patrick L, I also remember reading in the cba journal about chamber ringing. Maybe about 10 years ago, or so. It was a pretty big deal for several issues. I too still retain that fear. Coulda sworn I saw a post a couple months ago where a gent reamed his 8mm or '06 (can't remember) flasholes with a .98 drill. Saw once, years ago,where someone marked his cast only (reamed) brass with a finely cut x across the base. Very shallow, of course, so as not to sacrifice safety. I want to try this idea also. Wonder what would happen if I went to magnum primers??? Not in reamed out cases of course. So much experimenting to do, so little time.

[Depreacher]

On second thought, I never heard of anyone using a magnum primer on cast boolit rifle loads.

[Depreacher]

THANKS to all for the advice. If each of us has 30 to 50 years of experience with cast loads(Ihave 35), do you realise it's not hard to have 300 to 500 years of knowledge for any situation on this forum. This is in itself very humbling to my limited knowledge of cast loads. Most of mine is in .44 and .45 cal handguns (1911, SBH, BH, and an old converted mark VI Webley I just can't quit shooting). The quickest way to learn is to read todays posts every day. If you need help, just ask for it. Several someones out there have done it or seen it done. THANKS AGAIN, cbp

[Scrounger]

THANKS to all for the advice. If each of us has 30 to 50 years of experience with cast loads(Ihave 35), do you realise it's not hard to have 300 to 500 years of knowledge for any situation on this forum. This is in itself very humbling to my limited knowledge of cast loads. Most of mine is in .44 and .45 cal handguns (1911, SBH, BH, and an old converted mark VI Webley I just can't quit shooting). The quickest way to learn is to read todays posts every day. If you need help, just ask for it. Several someones out there have done it or seen it done. THANKS AGAIN, cbp

Yes, but note that all this experience falls on both (or more) sides of any question, thereby bringing EVERYTHING that is said in doubt.

[floodgate]

Ric,

Plus on a muzzle loader a larger hole would blow too much gas and flame back throught the nipple. Those caps aren't very sturdy things. I'm sure most us muzzleloaders have blown a hammer back to at least half cock from pressure back throught the nipple hole.

Joe

Starmetal:

A friend had an original .31 Colt Pocket C&B go "full auto" on him; the nipples were so eroded, and the mainspring so weak, it would blow the hammer back to full-cock and then drop it before he could let go of the trigger.

Paul Matthews, the BP Cartridge guru, has been playing with reduced flash-hole sizes, and one of the BPCR suppliers is making a swage to do it repeatably; Paul claims better accuracy with the big rounds and BP and BP-equivalent loads. See recent issues of "Single-Shot Exchange". I guess it depends - as usual - on the case, the powder, the primer used, antd the goals of the loader / shooter. The wax- and plastic-bullet gallery loads used in the '60's used much-enlarged flash holes, but cautioned they were to be used with primer's ONLY, No Powder!

floodgate

[StarMetal]

Flood...now that full auto cap and ball would be something to see.

Joe

[floodgate]

On second thought, I never heard of anyone using a magnum primer on cast boolit rifle loads.

Preacher: Mike Venturino, another BPCR guru, has been recommending the use of Federal 215 LR Magnum primers in the big Black Powder cartridges, for optimum ignition, and several of the other shooters in that group seem toprefer them. Of course, that's a bit different world.

floodgate

[9.3X62AL]

I use the Federal 215 primers in my 45-70 duplexed loads (5.0 x 4198 underneath 46.0 x WC-860). Some of the best cast boolit rifle groups I've ever fired have come from that combo, and the only better results came from the same bullet (Lee 405) and primer and 55.0 x Goex 2F. Righteous 1-1/4" 5-shot groups at 100 yards from a box-stock Ruger #1.

Most of my rifle and pistol sparks are created by Winchester primers. For some reason--likely distributror preferences--the WW spark plugs are easiest to find locally, with CCI's being a close second.

[waksupi]

CBP - You just need to get a full introduction to slow surplus powders. You will then begin to see many applications for magnum primers in cast loads.

Fun, ain't it?

[NVcurmudgeon]

On second thought, I never heard of anyone using a magnum primer on cast boolit rifle loads.


Please allow me to introduce myself, NVcurmudgeon. Now you have met someone who uses mostly Magnum LR primers in cast loads. My theory is that the Magnum primer may more certainly reach every kernel of powder, no matter where it lurks in a big, half-empty case. Mind, this is just a wild guess. One of these days I'll have to test it!

[Depreacher]

NVcurmudgeon, OK, you've convinced me. I have some WW LR's I will try with the 4759. Maybe I'll hold off reaming the primer vent for now to see how this works. Will be visiting my daughter and her hubby for several days, so will try it next week and maybe place a post as to the results. Maybe run a test for accuracy, POI, and FPS between std. and mag. primers. My accuracy tests will depend on my shooting ability, which remains an unknown, even to me.THANKS for your help, NVc

[Char-Gar]

Preacher...I read with interest your work with 4759, as that is one of my favorite powders. It has been my experience that 4759 is a very fine cast bullet powder for use in loads in the 1.5 - 1.8 K fps range. Groups start to go south when the velocity gets close to or over 1.8K fps. I have several theories on why this is so, but no real knowlege. I it is something I have observed.

[jh45gun]

While I do not put Harris on a pedestal I figure he has shot a lot of his loads called the load with 16 grains of more of 2400 in military cases to know what he is talking about. He said you need no fillers and it is not position sensative or at least not to worry about it and I tend to agree I have not shot that many rounds using the load but the few I have from 16 up to 19 grains of 2400 I have had good luck with. Jim

[StarMetal]

jh45gun

Not to argue, but another knowledgeable reloader is Mr. Forker that writes time to time for Guns & Ammo. He just did a test on a 38-40 pistol round that has a very large volume and found out that even non position sensitive powder becomes sensitive in some senarios. I look at the small amount of powder laying along the case wall when the gun is in the firing position and see that primer flame going over the top of that laying powder and lighting a very large portion of it almost instantly. Now a large volume of powder would still cover the flash hole and surely would have to ignite differently. Just how is a powder suppose to be ignited? All of it instantly or just some of it and burn to the rest of it?

Joe

[woody1]

THANKS to all for the advice. If each of us has 30 to 50 years of experience with cast loads(Ihave 35), do you realise it's not hard to have 300 to 500 years of knowledge for any situation on this forum. This is in itself very humbling to my limited knowledge of cast loads. Most of mine is in .44 and .45 cal handguns (1911, SBH, BH, and an old converted mark VI Webley I just can't quit shooting). The quickest way to learn is to read todays posts every day. If you need help, just ask for it. Several someones out there have done it or seen it done. THANKS AGAIN, cbp

Is that knowledge gained from 30 to 50 years of experience OR 1 years experience 30 to 50 times? Interesting to contemplate, yes? Regards, Woody

[jh45gun]

Do not mean to argue either I have read Harris's articles on using red dot and 2400 several times using military size cases and with both powders no filler is need or reccomended. Now I know from just being a member of this fine site for a while, that not all you guys agree on any given subject. I also have come to the conclusion that in reloading there is more than one right way at least most of the time as there are so many ways of getting a good load due to the variables.

[44man]

Felix, thats one reason I get fantastic accuracy from my .44's. I use Fed 150's with 296 so the primer does not blow the boolit into the forcing cone before good ignition. I know it happens with mag primers by studying chrono results and seeing the lousy groups. And my boolits are tight in the case, I can see the grease grooves through the brass.

[felix]

Yep, I know tight cases cause an ugly looking round, but that is necessary with slow powders. It would not have to be this way should we be able to get cases with small primer pockets. Extra tight cases can hurt the big bore boolits, but more especially the small bore ones like using heavy cases for rifle bottle neck rounds. Might actually size the little suckers down. ... felix