News From the SHOT Show.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just got back from SHOT Show last night. Had a great time and made many new aquaintances. Talked to lots of people.

Have some news to share with the membership.

First the industry is up in arms big time. Congress will probably not be passing any gun control legislation, and even if they do it will not affect much of anything. Big push is to label all liberals as "insane," and to define Assault Weapons as guns capible of full auto fire, and remove AR's and other semi auto's for that moniker and redine them as "Modern Defensive Rifles." Or the modern equivilent of the Kentucky Rifle, which everyone owned in the 1700's.

Second nobody anywhere has any AR Parts or guns, and won't for some time.

Third: The entire Freedom Group is up for sale! I got this from Brian Pearce who I talked to for 45 minutes in the Hornaday booth.

Cerubus says they want to divest themselves of all of the gun related companies they own after the CT shootings.

They said they will sell all of the companies individually or in pieces at auction if necessary.

The companies we are talking about are Remington, Marlin, DPMS, Bushmaster, Harrington & Richardson, Dakota Arms, Advanced Armament, Para-Ordinance, and Barnes Bullets.

You say so what?

Well all of the Freedom Group companies are located under one roof at the Remington facility in Illion NY.

What is really troubling is the fact that these companies all share machinery! So if you decide to buy Marlin, you won't get everything you need to make guns, and even though Marlin has recently purchased their wood supplier it would probably be sold as an independent asset to the highest bidder. Point being you will get some machines, some drawings, and some inventory, and then a kick in the ****, and told that you have 72 hours to remove YOUR purchases to another location.

If the whole show goes to auction, they will piece the assets out individually which will kill these companies! Hopefully some other large conglomerate will buy the whole show and make it go right.

These sales will have enormous implications to the gun industry and no doubt put thousands of people out of work. Even if the comapnies survive they will be out of production for months or even years if they are moved.

Kind of a chilling thought.

Next: I asked the ATF Reps the question " if someone comes to my house to confiscate my guns and I shoot them, am I covered by the Second Ammendment?"

Needless to say they were reluctant to answer my question with any kind of an answer. However eventually they did make me aware that they would not be involved in any way, as they are only tasked with enforcing the "Gun Control Act of 1968." This was later verified by the FBI guys who were willing to answer many questions, however I never did find out if I was covered by the 2nd A.

Any gun confiscation will be done by your local Law Enforcement Agencies. Most County Sherriffs will not comply as they understand full well that they would be putting their limited personnel in grave danger by attempting this, and also they don't agree with it anyway.

NRA membership is skyrocketing and you can get a full Lifetime Membership right now for $300 by calling 1-888-678-7894 (just did it,,,took 3 minutes)

I came home with loads of free stuff including cool flashlites, screwdrivers, pens, targets, patches, lubricants, knives, and a bunch of new relationships that will prove profitable, and well worth the time to make them.

Had a great time. All 4 days of it! :mrgreen:

Randy

[snuffy]

Don't you have to be associated with a retail gunshop, or have a FFL to be able to attend the shot show?

I was invited to go with a shooting buddy that HAD a FFL. He would have had to list me as an employee to get me in. The trip fell through, as neither of us had to $$$ for the trip and lodging. It would have been fun!

[dverna]

WRB

Thank you for the report.

Don

[waksupi]

I have it from a reliable source, that Remington and DPMS may soon have a presence here in NW Montana.

[tomme boy]

Breaking up these companies to get rid of them was the plan the whole time.

[cloakndagger]

Hmm.. we need an independently wealthy right wing gun loving american?... uuh...TED NUGENT should buy out the whole group for himself!

[I'll Make Mine]

Hmm.. we need an independently wealthy right wing gun loving american?... uuh...TED NUGENT should buy out the whole group for himself!

I doubt Ted Nugent is wealthy enough in his own right, or sufficiently risk-seeking if he were, to buy out what amounts to a third of the American gun making industry (though he might well be on the phone to his accountants right now, just to check). Now, a coalition of Nugent, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tom Petty, and a few other celebrities with plenty of money and no ties to the Democratic Party or the Church of Scientology might well be able to raise the money and distribute the risk enough to get the whole thing as a unit -- and do it through a holding company so their names aren't directly associated (can't be too careful managing public image when it's your livelihood, after all).

Too bad Bill Gates isn't much of a shooter, he could buy Remlin etc. out of pocket change, and hasn't shown much of any sign of caring what the world thinks of him. Maybe Richard Branson?

[cbrick]

Don't you have to be associated with a retail gunshop, or have a FFL to be able to attend the shot show?

Not just a gun shop, it is a trade show and not open to the public but any business involved in Shooting, Hunting, Outdoors Trades. Thus SHOT Show. I didn't go this year but when I do go I get in on a press pass via doing write ups on my web site lasc.us. Press pass is pretty cool because entry is free and the only cameras allowed inside are the press so I'd take my camera. A few other perks also such the press room, the range demonstrations & more.

The SHOT Show is an incredible mind boggling show and anyone that can needs to see it at least once.

Rick

[cbrick]

Now, a coalition of Nugent, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tom Petty, and a few other celebrities with plenty of money and no ties to the Democratic Party or the Church of Scientology might well be able to raise the money and distribute the risk enough to get the whole thing as a unit --

Why would you ever include a description like that and include Arnold? No ties to the Dems? Look who he was married to for years. He might have run for CA gov with an R next to his name but he has no idea what a Republican is.

Rick

[mpmarty]

I heard that Taurus of Brazil is a likely suitor, a marriage made in heaven.

[PbHurler]

Thanks for the report Randy,

I hope the Freedom Group companies wind up in better hands. There are some fine companies involved here, institutions really IMO. No offence to the New York brothers here, but I wouldn't mind seeing a relocation of the companies to a "friendlier" state if / when purchased. Stupid should have consequences.

[willie_pete]

Don't you have to be associated with a retail gunshop, or have a FFL to be able to attend the shot show?

I was invited to go with a shooting buddy that HAD a FFL. He would have had to list me as an employee to get me in. The trip fell through, as neither of us had to $$$ for the trip and lodging. It would have been fun!


I went a few years ago when it was in Orlando with NRA instructor credentials.

WP

[9.3X62AL]

WR--

Many thanks for a peek inside the SHOT Show. I meant to attend this year, but couldn't hack 4 days of hiking around the Sands Convention Center due to pending medical work. Poor timing on my part.

I did attend 2 years ago as a "partner" to a gunsmith/FFL retailer friend. It is something every outdoors enthusiast needs to see at least once, and no mere mortal can see it all in a single day. I am VERY HAPPY to hear that the firearms & outdoor retail establishment is taking the offensive against incursions on our rights to own and enjoy firearms. I also feel that the radic-lib hoplophobic nattering and Executive Orders are little more than flatulence in a hurricane......a hurricane of their own making, caused by the comprehensive blow-back against unconstitutional actions contemplated by politicos.

[cbrick]

It is something every outdoors enthusiast needs to see at least once, and no mere mortal can see it all in a single day.

Huge is quite the understatement. The only way you can see it in all four days is to not stop at any booths, just keep walking. If you stop to look at something or talk with someone there is something else there that you will never see. Any amount you spend on quality walking shoes is money very well spent.

Rick

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was there for 3.5 days we left at 1pm Friday as we had seen just about everything we wanted to. Jesse Duff wasn't there this year as she was in New York on Hannities show Friday night. which I missed. I usually get a nice fat kiss on the cheek from her, and yes, I made enough impression that she does remember me every year. very pretty girl in person and she's a helluva shooter too.

As far as being able to get in you have to have some affiliation with the gun industry, either civilian, LE or military.

I make parts for the Navy's RAM Missle Launcher, and I have made some parts for guns (loosely speaking). It is not hard to get pre registered, and any affiliation with any part of the industry is OK. Plenty of people go that are friends of friends.

I do go there looking for opportunities and found several I will be following up on next week. I also network businesses with other businesses to facilitate their production. Last two years it has been getting Cammenga, the outfit that makes the military's compasses, hooked up with a proper knife maker for their Tritium encrusted utility knife. I was successful and they showed me the end result which came out pretty damn good in the end.

This year the main target was Del-Ton. They are running flat out and need 50,000 of every part in an AR just to fill existing orders for complete rifles. This doesn't include replacement parts or kits for lowers or Brownells or Midway, only complete guns.

I hooked them up with two outfits that already make all of the internal parts for AR's and have tons of excesss capacity, hopefully they will get together and be able to increase Del-Ton's production so that I will be able to get the Mid Length Upper I want, sooner than next year. This is something I do when I can, and it always ends up benefitting me in some way. Kind of like,,,what goes around comes around.

What most people don't know is that you can actually make things come around, by making things go around.

It works for me rather well, and building personal relationships is where it all starts. After I came back with the needed contacts, the Pres of Del-Ton was pretty happy to see me. I just have to follow it up to fruition.

Can't wait to get my Mid length upper with light weight chrome lined barrel and Magpul furniture.

Overall, I worked pretty hard last week.

Randy

[HighHook]

The shotshow is something you have to see once in your life.
To see Remington , Winchester , colt , savage , ruger booths displaying all old and new is a real treat. I also like the technology in steel moving tilting lifelike shooting targets, all the new neet stuff that costs arms and legs that I can't afford.

[9.3X62AL]

Connections like those you made REALLY make the world go around, WR. My AR lower unit is a Del-Ton, and anything the industry can do to facilitate an uptick in output would be great. Like you, I have an upper unit in mind for target and varmint venues.

Nature abhors a vacuum, esp. ones like that between the ears of Cerberus. I cannot respect a company lacking the courage of its convictions. They bought up all of these firearms companies, and now when the waters get a mite rough they want to p--s backwards? What sissy-la-las.

[seagiant]

This year the main target was Del-Ton. They are running flat out and need 50,000 of every part in an AR just to fill existing orders for complete rifles. This doesn't include replacement parts or kits for lowers or Brownells or Midway, only complete guns.
Randy
Hi,
Thanks for the news Randy,interesting! I was talking to my Gunsmith buddy and he was saying a lot of rifles are being held up by the lack of certain parts. I believe bolts were mentioned! As you know I just finished up my first build right before this mess, (luckily) and was all set to make another as it was so much fun and enjoyable,but now looks like as you say parts will go first to make whole rifles to feed the demand and then hopefully parts will become available for the little guy.

I'm hoping that prices will come back down as demand drops also??? It would be nice to build an $800 AR again!

[W.R.Buchanan]

9.3: What you need to understand about companies like Cerberus is that the assets we are talking about are valued at less than lunch money for these guys. Cerberus is a $20 Billion company, and is very diverse.

Word was that the California, MA, NJ, and NY state pension funds, were all both heavily invested, and managed by Cererbus, and they all demanded that the company divest itself of all firearms manufacturers and related businesses.

It remains to be seen if they actually do it, but when you consider that the sum total of the worth of all the companies mentioned is less than 2% of the Cerberus' holdings, it is doubtful that they will even give it a second thought. It will be treated like any other asset and bought, sold or traded like a commodity as a matter of daily business.

ATK is also owned by Remington, and RCBS is owned by ATK so we may see some problems there as well. There was word that they may be sold to Bain Capitol.

The ramifications of this news may spread far and wide. I guess we will just have to wait and see where the dust settles.

Lets just hope it all stays together or at least it is broken down into functional entities.

For those who don't know, the real Cerberus was the multi headed dog that guarded the gates of the underworld.

Funny,,, You'd think they'd want him well armed.

Randy

[cbrick]

ATK is also owned by Remington, and RCBS is owned by ATK so we may see some problems there as well. Randy

Are you sure? I could be wrong but I thougt ATK owned Remington, RCBS and others such as Federal. ATK is a huge international arms mfg and very diverse. The reloading market is small potato's to them.

Rick

[felix]

Yes, indeed, that makes a lot of sense. Bain Capital is on a rampage in acquisitions with no end of money from the world over. They tend to take over companies which are low level industries specifically with poor management. Brand new companies and smart executives with new ideas too such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Kriss. ... felix

In case you didn't know: http://www.kriss-usa.com/

[Marlin Junky]

Any gun confiscation will be done by your local Law Enforcement Agencies.

I don't believe that for a second. If there's a AFT office in your county... that bureaucracy will be paying you a visit.

Any law enforcement people out there?

MJ

[Tonto]

Moderator, please move to the group buy section...;)
Be interesting if organized gun owners and advocates could gather and keep these companies going.

[Marlin Junky]

Felix,

So where's the connection between Eric Kriss and KRISS ARMS?

MJ

[lreed]

I think our "friend" George Soros owns-runs Cerbus Group which owns-runs Freedom Group. Small world ain,t it! lreed

[Marlin Junky]

I think our "friend" George Soros owns-runs Cerbus Group which owns-runs Freedom Group. Small world ain,t it! lreed

http://www.nraila.org/223471

MJ

[MtGun44]

False rumor, no known links between Soros and Cerberus.

If Taurus buys it we are sunk, get their crummy costomer service and iffy build quality in all those
guns. Won't that be fun. Taurus lovers, save your breath. I have worked on these things too
many times to be impressed by your "mine is a wonderful gun" comments. They are not junk, usually,
but they are built to the lowest possible quality level that will sell.

Bill

[felix]

Felix,

So where's the connection between Eric Kriss and KRISS ARMS?

MJ

Connection: Post #19 mentioning Bain Capital. Proof? Nope, but merely a very strong coincidence because of: world wide patents costs, manufacturing in the USA (not Switzerland), and world bank affiliates, not to mention the U.N. ... felix

A strong competitor to Bain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Global_Management
It is amazing the majority of very lucrative assets of this company are not listed in wikipedia. ... felix

[fcvan]

MTGun44, I had heard of customer service issues in years past, mostly dealing with long waiting for parts or repair. I talked to the factory reps at St. Louis during the NRA meetings and they admitted it had been a problem. I was also informed they had worked to correct this problem due to complaints.

Last spring, I had purchased a PT 709 Slim that was printing low/left by several inches at 15 yards. I learned from web chatter there had been a problem with a run of these pistols and others had to ship their guns back. The reps explained their repair/replacement policy and directed me to their website. I went online and followed their directions, and shipped the gun to Taurus. From the internet, I was able to track the progress of the repair order. They told me 6 weeks and it was back in 5. As this pistol was made in Brazil (some models are made in Fla.) they had to ship it there. Taurus sent the gun back with notes on the repairs they had completed and with a test pattern of the pistol. Sure, I paid for the shipping to Taurus but they paid to ship it back to my FFL dealer.

Yes, they have had service problems in the past but I think they have responded to consumer complaints and improved their service. Back in the 80s, I had a buddy who sent in a revolver that suffered a catastrophic cylinder failure. They sent him a new gun, post haste. I have had 5 Taurus pistols or revolvers over the years, and shot others owned by friends. I'm happy with the product and was satisfied with their recent service. The only complaint I could make is they should have identified the run of 709 pistols which were bad and recalled those not yet sold. They should have prepaid the shipping for folks like me who got one of their defective pistols. I will say this, it took me longer to get around to sending it to them than they took to fix the problem.

[9.3X62AL]

All of these moves by corporate entities are WAY outta my league in terms of price, volume, or understanding. Much of what I want is already on hand, and recently I've sold off some safe queens to finance other goodies. That's kinda how I roll.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Not a whole lot any of us as individuals can do about these corporate changes. What we can do is stay aware of what is going on in the industry as much as possible.

When you talk this stuff up to your friends and aqauintences you never know who might have a big chunk of money stashed somewhere,(lottery winners?) or know someone who does. People can and will surprise you.

I personally wouldn't mind owning Marlin. I assure that the guns I made would be right. They might cost a little more but you'd get what you paid for. If anyone would like to fund my aquisition feel free to PM me!

You never know until you ask!

Randy

[Shuz]

I personally wouldn't mind owning Marlin. I assure that the guns I made would be right. They might cost a little more but you'd get what you paid for. If anyone would like to fund my aquisition feel free to PM me!

You never know until you ask!

Randy[/QUOTE]

Randy,
Somebody needs to remove Marlin from the Remington line. I was at a local gun store today and saw a couple of the new Remlins! Wood to metal finish"...well you couldn't call it finish it was still crude. Besides that, the stock rattled against the action and the wood looked like cheap birch. The metal was real dull. What an ugly 336 and 1894! And get this... the price on the 336 was $419.99 and the 1894 in .44 mag was $559.99! It is hard for me to understand how anybody would buy these ugly guns!

[dverna]

False rumor, no known links between Soros and Cerberus.

If Taurus buys it we are sunk, get their crummy costomer service and iffy build quality in all those
guns. Won't that be fun. Taurus lovers, save your breath. I have worked on these things too
many times to be impressed by your "mine is a wonderful gun" comments. They are not junk, usually,
but they are built to the lowest possible quality level that will sell.

Bill

Very much on target. If it happens, watch to see pre-Taurus Remingtons wind up increasing in value like pre-64 M70's did.

Don

[cbrick]

Shuz, If you think the outside is bad you should use a bore scope and look down some new Marlin barrels. I did a few years ago when looking for a 45-70, took the bore scope to the stores with me and shocking doesn't describe what they looked like. The only thing I can think of that they used to rifle the bore was a hammer & chisel.

I posted this at the time and the thread drew very little attention. NO new Marlins for me.

Rick

[Shiloh]

WRB

Thank you for the report.

Don

+1

Great Info. Thank You.

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

I have it from a reliable source, that Remington and DPMS may soon have a presence here in NW Montana.

More Great News!!

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

Breaking up these companies to get rid of them was the plan the whole time.

Unintended consequences.

Did they really want more unemployment, or are these folks to go on the un-employment payout wagon??

Shiloh

[Nrut]

Randy,
Did you stop by the Kel-Tec booth?
Wondering if they have plans on adding new calibers to their SU16 line..

[wv109323]

As far as gun confiscation I fear the UN. Obama calls Marshall Law and the UN as the "Peacekeepers".

[9.3X62AL]

As far as gun confiscation I fear the UN. Obama calls Marshall Law and the UN as the "Peacekeepers".

3 words........Blue Helmet Tag. No limit, night hunting OK, tags free and packaged in 5-packs. Turn in 5 right ears for another five-pack.

[onceabull]

It will certainly be a rude shock to the exec's at ATK in Arlington,Va.to learn the firm is actually owned by REMINGTON.. Get real, guys,Remington Arms and the rest of gun related firms presently owned by Cerberus, would be pocket change for ATK..Significant shareholders of record for ATK can be googled up 24/7/365 by anyone that cares... Onceabull