Leading in 1911

[jonk]

I have to say, I've had less than stellar results in loading for semi auto pistol with cast bullets, but my new RIA 1911A1 is really apalling.

I got a 6 cavity Lee 200 gr SWC TL mold. Alloy is water quenched ww. Loaded as sized, .452, using Lee's taper crimp. LLA Tumble lubed. I tried it with .5cc of Red Dot (around 5 gr) and 8.4 gr of HS-6. Both operated well enough, about 1 stovepipe per 50, but both leaded SEVERELY. We're talking chunks of lead the size of fingernail clippings coming out. Needless to say poor accuracy resulted, and a lot of 'fun' cleaning time.

Now, I did not slug my bore, assuming (duh) that it was a new gun and it should be in spec. It shoots standard jacketed rounds just fine. In any case, I don't think I could go much fatter and still get it to chamber.

Softer lead? Harder? We'll assume the LLA is fine on the tumble lube bullet at this velocity (900 fps or less I'd say). What's up?

[leftiye]

Jonk, Of course, first slug it. I'm loading some Lee 125-2r for my wifes 9mm and the Lee lube grooves are TINY. I've been forced to use surface lubes. I spray em with Lyman's Moly Spray, and (only because I have some- it came with my Lee sizer dies) tumble lube them in LLA. I'm not a fan of surface lubes in the past, but I may be becoming converted. The idea does have a lot of merit (as long as you can find something that stays on after engraving it would be good to lube the lands too). Felix suggested using Carnauba wax, or better still (he says) castor wax as surface lubes. My experience with Carnauba is that it leaves a super clean shiny bore (even when used with the moly spray). As you can tell, the Carnauba does stay on, it waxes the bore (microscopically thin layer).

I don't know your boolit style but the aforementioned Lee boolit crimps in the lube groove when seated out perfectly to headspace on the lands in my wifes gun (or it would be history otherwise). Might work that way with your boolit?

[mstarling]

I've shot a huge number of Lyman 452460s in 1911s over the years. Cast in straight WW. Sized at 0.452" and lubed with 50/50 Alox or Carnuaba Red. Run them at about 900 to 950 fps with Bullseye, Unique, or WSF. I've NEVER seen that kind of leading!

Have seen metal fouling in compensators ... but not in the barrels.

Either 1) your alloy is not what you think it is, 2) the lube is failing badly, or 3) the bullet design is terrible. I'd bet 2 or 1 in that order.

[R.M.]

I'll step out on a limb and guess that your alloy is too hard for the load.Try some air-cooled or 50/50 WW and pure.

R.M.

[Char-Gar]

I have put at least 100K rnds of cast bullet handloads through various 1911s over the past 48 years and have never had the leading problems you do. But then again I don't water quench my bullets, and use that LLA gook. Might be something here to think about.

[sundog]

I've never had that king of problem in any 1911, and I've put more than a few cast rounds through several of them. They've just about all been either AC range scrap or WWs and even some swaged stuff that came from Hornady I think. I've used Alox, Super Moly, and FWFL. I tried LLA several times in different hand guns and it has NEVER worked for me. I'm not sure that the powder really makes all that much difference as far as leading goes. I've used everything from BE to RD to GD to 231 to Unique to who all knows what. I like 231 the bestest lately 'cause I got a couple surplus 231 cheap.

[pumpguy]

I don't have a 1911. I do have a chinese Makarov and have shot thousands of rounds through it with no leading. I also just finished cleaning my GP100 that I put 1200 HOT rounds through. It took longer to clean all the powder fouling than it did to clean the barrel. I use water quenched wheel weights and size them .002 over. I lube them with Lee liuid alox. Don't know if this is applicable to your situation but you might slug your barrel and try it.

[ANeat]

Jonk are you using the "factory crimp die" If yes then that is your problem

[stanley2]

Jonk are you using the "factory crimp die" If yes then that is your problem

Why would using the factory crimp die cause the leading problem? Could you elaborate on this, I am noobie:-D
Thanks

[ANeat]

Why would using the factory crimp die cause the leading problem? Could you elaborate on this, I am noobie:-D
Thanks


The factory crimp die has a carbide ring in the bottom similar to a sizing die. Most of the ones Ive measured and several other reloaders that have checked theirs have found that they will cause a lead bullet to be undersized. Generally by .001 to .002. The best thing to do is pull a loaded round and re-measure your bullet.
Some calibers like 9mm that has a good bit of taper are less affected but 40s&W, 45acp, and every straight walled "revolver" round are usually ones to watch out for.

[Lee W]

I also agree it's the water dropped. All I cast is 45 and I have found that mine like 8 - 10 BHN the best. I use 4.2 grains of WST.

[NuJudge]

I'd think the first order of business is to slug your bore and measure your bullets. If the bullets are smaller than groove diameter you'll get that effect also.

I've used Lee Liquid Alox some with conventional bullets, and it has worked great in that cartridge at that velocity.

I've recently bought that mold, so I'm interested in what you find the problem to be.

[jonk]

Well to tell the truth, EVERY tumble lube bullet I've ever used had leading issues. Whereas every regular bullet, even if lubed in LLA, was fine.

Not the alloy. Definitely not. I use it in rifles up to 1800 fps no problems, and with LLA up to 1400 fps, no problems.

I HAVE in fact tried it with air cooled bullets, that's why I moved up to water quenched- the air cooled ones fouled as well.

I think of the options suggested so far, I will try a different lube and not using the factory crimp die.

[Cherokee]

Jonk - slug the barrel, use oversize bullets. I think your alloy is too hard and bullets undersized for your barrel. If you don't want to soften your alloy, make your bullets fatter. Just my experience in 5+ 1911's.

[Edward429451]

How could water quenched / hardness cause leading? I started water dropping my 45's lately just for the sake of conveinance and they didn't start leading.

I see the feasibility of overcrimping them sizing them down. Or maybe your bore is oversized to begin with?

[38-55]

Jonk,
Try this.. Don't size your bullets. Just tumble lube them. Clean your gun as well as you can. Load 4 gns of red-dot and see if that functions your gun with no leading.
Your barrel may just be rough and the powders you listed do tend to lead a little. I can't explain why they lead only that I have observed them to cause some leading in my guns.
calvin

[jonk]

I don't size them as is. Like I say, I don't think I could get them much fatter and still chamber being as that is the case.

[BD]

It's pretty unusual for a 1911 to lead badly enough to really degrade the accuracy.
If you're getting lead shavings that look like finger nail clippings it could be that your barrel never got throated. In this case if you're shoving a .452 bullet down a .451 bore with square edges at the start of the lands you may be carving little land shaped clippings of lead which are then ironed into the bore by subsequent boolits.
My advice would be to clean your barrel very well. Fire a single shot and pull the barrel for a close look at whats happening. I own a kimber which came from the factory without having been throated which resulted in severe leading starting from the chamber end. After doing the single shot routine I could see the little lead shavings sticking into the bore from the start of the lands.
BD

[Cherokee]

A too hard bullet will cause leading of the barrel if the bullet is allowing gases to get past it. A softer bullet will expand at lower pressures to completely fill the barrel lands/grooves whereas a harder bullet requires more pressure to sufficiently expand to seal the bore. 45 ACP is a low pressure round and a softer bullet may allow for sealing the bore to avoid gas cutting & leading of the barrel. If the bullet is large enough, say 453, being shoved down a 451 barrel, hard should work fine. But a hard cast 451 bullet going down a 452 barrel will probably leave lead behind.

[DanM]

I have had good results with that mold. I water quench, size to .452", and lube with LLA. My mix is 1:30 tin/WW. I load to 930-950fps with 231, no leading. Years ago I tried the same TL style without sizing, and leading was a problem. Not as bad as yours. This colt has a .451" bore. You really should slug your bore to be sure, and you will likely need to start sizing your boolits. Some shoot the Lee TL boolits unsized, but my results improved greatly when I bought the sizer. I also use the LFCD with this boolit and it works fine for me. I am with BD in thinking that your chamber may need throating. Have you actually miked your boolits so that you know what you are getting? The mold may be undersized....

[truckjohn]

I would add..

Don't stop with only slugging the bore -- slug the throat/chamber too.

If you drive a 45-case sized slug into the bore from the chamber end -- leaving half of it still in the chamber. Drive it back out, and you have a fine impression of the throat and end of the chamber. This will help let you look for burrs, but also to look for weird dimensions right at the leade/chamber end.

My Taurus 1911 barrel is like this -- 0.451" bore right on the numbers. Bore is mirror shiny, but leads like crazy. Mic'd the chamber/leade slug to find:
1. The bore starts out 0.455" at the leade
2. The chamber is cut about 0.025" off center from the bore, at a slight angle.

Yep, that is why it leads starting at the leade then heading up the barrel...... even with 0.454" slugs.

Good luck with yours.

John

[Bob Jones]

I've shot 10's of 1000's of the Lee 230 tumble lube bullets through my 1911's without the slightest bit of leading. Usually use around 4 grains of Clays, liquid alox lube, size them .452 and they're water-dropped wheel weights.

I have to suspect your barrel before I'd suspect the alloy or the lube. At .45 velocities there's just no good reason for leading.

[TAWILDCATT]

I'v shot both types of bullets from my 45 acp.never clean it till it gets to dirty to handle.shot compitition for yrs.saeco 200gr swc/3.6 gr 700x.shoot from the mold
check for obvius flaws.my gun is ww2/1942.trigger job/adjustable sights.
why harden bullets your under 2000fs.
I shoot 1906 with 311291/13 gr red dot=1680fs not hardened.no leading.
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