Wheel weights and Brinell Hardness Numbers

[Southern Shooter]

I have some wheel weights, both clip-on and the flat stick-on, that I use for casting bullets. My questions are these:

1) What is the BHN of clip-on weights when "air cooled"?

2) What is the BHN of clip-on weights when "water quenched"?

3) What is the BHN of stick-on weights when "air cooled"?

4) What is the BHN of stick-on weights when "water quenched"?

5) Which of these leads cast for .44 Special, .44 Magnum (240 grain SWC), and .45 Colt (260 grain SWC) would be recommended for use in a "mountain gun" for protection?

Thanks

[captaint]

SS - I can only tell of my experience with wheel weights and hardness. When I air cool my clip on WW's they test out about 9 on the scale. I don't water quench anything right now - so..... Stick on weights are GENERALLY closer to pure lead, therefore should come in around 6-7 on the scale. Doesn't make much sense to water quench stick ons, due to the lack of antimony or arsenic in the mix.
Most of my handgun boolits are a mix of 50/50 stick on WW's and softer lead, air cooled. Except for my 9mm's, which I use striaght air cooled clip on WW's.
IF it were me, I would maintain my mix of 50/50, unless I was gonna run the 44mag harder. Then, I would go to my straight air cooled clip ons, and maybe use a gas check - only if the barrel leaded up and gas checks were needed. enjoy Mike

[blackthorn]

Due to the lack of any specific formula in the making of the original WW, the answer to questions one through four is----it depends on the component mix of your particular batch of weights.

Question five has been answered in post #2,--- BUT---YMMV (Your Milage May Vary), so post #2 is a good place to start.!

[runfiverun]

bout 15 years ago i could have answered this with certainty.
and would have been bout 95-99% correct.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?179067-Lead-analyzing-service-what-did-you-learn
look here.....
to see what may or may not be in ww's anymore.

[MtGun44]

WWts typically give me about 10-12 BHN air cooled. Never water quench any more, so no
idea what they would be if WQ'd. Stickons are nearly pure, should run under 8 AC or WQ.

Bill

[Old Caster]

It also depends what kind of stick on's you have. I came across some that were mostly tin. This was the first time I had ever seen anything but almost pure lead in them.

Lately WW seem to be about 10 BHN but this might even vary with location. You can shoot WW in any of those guns and do fine. Think about it, rimfire 22's go about 1350fps and they use pure lead. BHN about 5-6.

[44man]

WW's vary a lot because they are recycled so much. Since the stick on weights came out they are just mixed together when they make new CO weights.
Water dropped gets me 18 to 22 BHN depending on the ingots in my pile.
I fear stick on stuff because I found almost all of the last batch I sorted out were zinc. I had a pot of oatmeal.

[BCB]

I cast some 45-270-SAA a couple of months ago from older clip-on wheel weights and as I was casting them I would drop a couple in water at random times just to see what might happen to the BHN as I wanted to try a bit harder boolit in my Blackhawk…

After a week I checked the hardness of both with a SAECO hardness tester that has been accurate, according to the predicted BHN in published data and according the graph that comes with the tester. I converted SAECO hardness numbers to BHN…

The air-cooled boolits tested at a SAECO hardness of 6.5 which converts to a BHN of 10 as could be expected of wheel weights…

I then tested the water-cooled boolits and they showed a SAECO hardness of 10. That converts to a BHN of 22 or equivalent to linotype…

I was surprised to see an increase of this amount by just water cooling the boolits. I checked another ½ dozen of the water-cooled boolits and the SAECO tester confirmed that hardness repeatedly…

I didn’t know one could double the BHN by water cooling, at least with wheel weights...

Good-luck…BCB

[BCB]

44man...

You and I must have been typing and submitting our replies at the same time--numbers seem to confirm water cooling the boolits...

BCB

[44man]

44man...

You and I must have been typing and submitting our replies at the same time--numbers seem to confirm water cooling the boolits...

BCB
I guess! :drinks:
I use WD in all my big bores I get too many fliers with AC.
Even 50-50 can shoot decent if oven hardened and it does not hurt expansion at all, ask the few red mist, mush deer I shot with the stuff! :mrgreen: I can't get accuracy with air cooled 50-50. They cut my hunting distance in half.

[BCB]

Do you think that hardness is throughout the complete boolit or do you think it is just a skin hardness and somewhat removed in the sizing process?...

BCB

[cbrick]

Most steels when heat treated are a surface hardness. Lead does not react the same as steel and it will be the same hardness throughout. It may take just a bit longer for the center to reach this hardness because it doesn't cool quite as quickly but for all practical purposes the hardness is throughout the boolit.

Rick

[44man]

Do you think that hardness is throughout the complete boolit or do you think it is just a skin hardness and somewhat removed in the sizing process?...

BCB
I don't think it goes deep and sizing after aging has not hurt because of the small amount I need. If you have to size a lot, do it right after casting. It will reduce the surface hardness if you wait too long. I always felt it is the thin surface hardness that aids grip to the rifling. I just don't know how deep it goes.
I have found an air cooled WW boolit will not expand at my revolver velocities, same as WD. There seems to be no difference at a deer but WD is always more accurate for me.
I really am a harder boolit guy but not so much a harder alloy guy.
After seeing what a 50-50 boolit does to deer after oven hardening to 18 to 20 BHN, I have doubts it hurt expansion. It did improve accuracy but sure did not hurt expansion.
First is WD boolit with my .44 on a deer. Second is a 50-50 boolit, oven hardened on another deer, I lost almost all of the shoulder.
You see why I question guys that want a soft hollow point.

[on1wheel01]

WW's vary a lot because they are recycled so much. Since the stick on weights came out they are just mixed together when they make new CO weights.
Water dropped gets me 18 to 22 BHN depending on the ingots in my pile.
I fear stick on stuff because I found almost all of the last batch I sorted out were zinc. I had a pot of oatmeal.

That's why I am always careful when sorting, I do a magnet test and a pinch test with a pair of cutters.

[44man]

Most steels when heat treated are a surface hardness. Lead does not react the same as steel and it will be the same hardness throughout. It may take just a bit longer for the center to reach this hardness because it doesn't cool quite as quickly but for all practical purposes the hardness is throughout the boolit.

Rick
I don't know Rick, you are talking about hardening soft steel by case hardening where it is just surface. Tool steel hardens all the way.
But look at results on deer with two different hardness procedures.
Does lead harden to the center of a boolit or is just grain structure altered without changing the original alloy? I don't know but I see things when I hunt and I kill a LOT of deer.
I never recover a boolit so I have no way to show a difference in expansion except damage.
So even if the grain structure is changed to the center of a boolit, does it have any affect on expansion? Or is velocity, too slow or too fast more important?
Each season I see different things so it is always work in progress. Like the bunch of deer I shot with the .500 JRH where there was no meat damage and also no blood on the ground. Same velocity as the .44 that destroys a deer. Boolit weight? Rick, I go nuts trying to solve this stuff.

[cbrick]

I don't think it goes deep.

Do as I did and study the metallurgy of lead alloy and you will think so.

Much of that is some pretty dry reading but a lot can be learned by a boolit caster from it.

Rick

[44man]

Do as I did and study the metallurgy of lead alloy and you will think so.

Much of that is some pretty dry reading but a lot can be learned by a boolit caster from it.

Rick
I still think it is grain structure alteration and a different bond between metals. You can't harden pure lead in any way. Tin has little affect other then a different bond on the molecular level. You will also not harden it with quenching. Antimony and a trace of arsenic added allows quench hardening. Do you just stop molecule movement fast? It will be faster at the surface and less deeper. Do dendrites grow once lead solidifies?
The mystery is why does an alloy harden over time? How deep?
Section a boolit and you will have a different hardness than at the surface.
I know nothing about metals but steel has carbon, oxygen and other metals added and when hot, atoms are combined and spinning like crazy. Quench and atoms are stopped before the other components can separate into pockets. Lead alloy should work the same, quench and keep the metals in alloy before they slip out to form pockets. You don't want a little pool of tin here and a pool of antimony there. Cool metal slow and each metal will leave the atoms to form alone.
I might be stupid but can imagine the process on the molecular scale. You have to stop excursions of additions from leaving the atoms.
Quench a knife blade and it will break so you temper it so molecules can drift apart a little and make the blade tough. Not so hot the metals form pockets of separate metals.
Rick, what do I imagine wrong?