45 ACP load leading

[Pitchnit]

I need some help here. After 25 rounds I am getting quite a bit of leading. This is a Lee 200 lswc regular groove lubed with 2 coats of 45/45/10. Sized at .453, 4.6 gr Bullseye. I am using a Lyman "M" die and have pulled bullets and they are still sized at .453, crimp is .472 and col is 1.235. Another member of the forum checked my hardness to be 15 BHN on his Cabin tree. The barrel slugged at .451-.4515 measured with a calibrated mic. I just got 4 lbs of Bullseye so that's what I want to stick with. The only thing I can think of is bumping up the hardness. This alloy is 50/50 range lead/ww. I need to push these fast enough to make major, close to 850 fps. Any help here would be appreciated. Regards-Pitchnit

[btroj]

Where in the barrel is the leading?
Does the chamber have a sharp edge to the throat?
are the bullets seated so they are in slight contact with the throat when to bolt closes?

Many things could be leading to the leading, more info could help determine the cause.

[Pitchnit]

leading is all the way through the bore. COL is set for the back of the bullet to be even with the very back of the barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

If you don't have a lubrasizor try straight LLA as per the instructions. You might also want to size the bullets to .452.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Try sizing to .452 and see what happens. You might also try some traditionally lubed bullets.

[Pitchnit]

I am a relatively new caster and this is my only sizer. Do you think changing the COL to 1.250 might make an improvement?

[williamwaco]

You never did mention the firearm.

Is this an auto or a revolver?

The only thing I might suspect is the .453 sizing. I have never sized anything that large but the rest of your load is EXACTLY like what I shoot every time in at least half dozen 1911 .45ACPS. I have never had leading in any of them.






.

[Pitchnit]

Its a Springfield Range Officer. I was surprised to see the amount of lead. I have been running the same set up with 4.0 BE with only some fouling but this was with a harder bullet. The same Cabin tree measured this bullet hardness at 22 and I thought that was probably way to hard so I softened it up. I have ran some of the 15 BHN bullets with the 4.0 with no leading only some fouling.

[btroj]

So a harder bulet leaded worse than a softer bullet?

That tells you something. Try even softer yet.

[williamwaco]

Its a Springfield Range Officer. I was surprised to see the amount of lead. I have been running the same set up with 4.0 BE with only some fouling but this was with a harder bullet. The same Cabin tree measured this bullet hardness at 22 and I thought that was probably way to hard so I softened it up. I have ran some of the 15 BHN bullets with the 4.0 with no leading only some fouling.

Yes,

22 is WAY too hard. I don't even like 15. I usually shoot for about 12 but when it comes out at 15 I use it and have never had a problem with it.

The worst leading problems for me have always occurred with commercial "hard cast" bullets - usually 18 to 20 BNH.

Don't worry about your Bulls Eye. I expect Bulls Eye has propelled more cast lead bullets than any other powder for around 100 years. The first powder I ever purchased was a can of Bulls Eye and 2400 in 1956. I have never been without either of them since.

850 fps is no problem. I push BNH 9 cast .357 bullets to 1700 fps in my Winchester 92 lubed with LLA.
These same loads Chronograph around 1350 from a S&W revolver. ( I throw this in just to show that you can reach your 850 with ease with a very soft alloy.)


Since throats are not an issue, I suspect fit.
Resize some of those .453s to .452 and re-lube them.
Crimp. Crimp just enough to remove the flare.
If you can see any flare at all, the crimp is too light.
If you can see any crimp at all, it is too much.

.



.

[DrCaveman]

I don't know too much but I think you should try sizing to 452. 0005-0010 over bore is what I thought was the guideline. I have gotten lucky and plain ol' Lee 452 sizing die has worked well enough for my two pistols.

[geargnasher]

One of my very first posts on this board was asking for help with one of my .45 ACPs that was leading much the same as yours. I was using straight liquid Alox, but that didn't end up being the real problem.

My problem was an odd one, a combination of sharp throat and reverse-tapered bore. The boolit got shaved when engraving the rifling and further got gas cut about halfway down the barrel because of the taper causing loss of obturation (seal) and thus leaks. The shaved lead and lead dust from the blowby get deposited on the bore and accumulate rapidly.

So, my advice, since you've covered the bases of making your boolits larger than groove dimension and ensuring that they are still large enough after coming out of the case, is to check your throat entrance diameter and see what's going on. Most .45 ACP chambers are pretty sloppy, and the case sort of just lies on the bottom of the chamber. If the boolit's front drive band (worse with SWCs than with ogival boolits that mimic ball ammo profile) is bigger than the throat entrance at the end of the chamber, and there's still enough room for the case to fall off-center, then two things will happen when it's fired: The bottom bands of the boolit will scrape off on the bottom edge of the throat and the top will have a gap that will allow gas cutting before the boolit is even engraved. Double-whammy on the leading.

If this is indeed what's happening, the throat entrance can be reamed with a tool from Brownell's so the boolit can get from the case to the bore without shaving. Going down a size to .452" will probably help as well, and if you seat that boolit out just far enough that the front band sort of "pilots" in the throat when the cartridge is chambered, then it doesn't have a chance to shave one side (or all the way around) when fired and you just might not have to ream it. There is such thing as too big if the boolit is bigger than the throat entrance. Some folks have good luck shooting groove diameter boolits in their 1911s, especially with soft boolits and fast powders, and that helps prevent the shaving issue too. Those shaved lead bits will really build up in the bore, making thick, lumpy streaks in short order. That's why I lean toward the shaving being your issue, it builds faster than gas-cutting residue does, and you're sizing .453". Most people have good luck sizing .452" and seating the boolit out far enough so that the cartridge actually headspaces on the boolit rather than the extractor claw or case mouth, and that will center-up the cartridge even in a sloppy chamber.

One more thing, don't blame the powder, there have been trainloads of Bullseye burned in .45 ACP 1911s behind 200-grain lead SWCs to good effect, but you have to have the fit right same as any other powder.

Best thing you can do is cast the chamber or do an impact slug of it and measure the throat entrance diameter, throat angle, and look for any sharp ledges where the throat meets the rifling. The throat should fade smoothly into the rifling, not have a second, sharp step there, which is another problem lots of modern autos seem to have.

Gear

[Pitchnit]

Well it seems like several things may be in order, a new sizer and a lead hardness tester. I had no idea I was getting 22 BHN and it was actually shooting well with minimal leading at .453. The 22 BHN was 17/3 range lead and the 15 BHN was 50/50 COWW/range lead. I thought I was getting around 13 and 11 using Bumpo's calculator. I'm guessing my range lead is pretty hard. So a tester is in order.

I don't think the powder or the charge it the issue. I do have some Penn 200 LSWC that I was using prior to casting my own that are sized .452. Not too long ago I changed my COL from 1.250 to 1.235 so maybe I have a gap prior to engaging the rifling. I think I will regroup and try again while I'm waiting for a new sizing die(need some alox anyway).

Gear-The shaving thing makes sense since the leading you describe is what I am seeing, but wouldn't this still occur with the lower powder charge. I may be able to get a chamber cast at work. It also makes some sense that the larger diameter may not pilot into the throat. Several things to chew on in your reply. Thanks

Regards-Pitchnit

[Super Sneaky Steve]

The worst leading I ever got was with a Lee tumble lube design with strait LLA for my 1911. I have since switched to standard lube groves that are pan lubed and my problems went away. Sized .452

Try pan lubing a few. I'd start with simple cheap fixes then go from there.

[gefiltephish]

I spent a year working with various tumble lube recipes for both 9mm and 45acp. Sized to .452 (.453 won't chamber) with BHN generally from 9-13. Zero success. Got a conventional lubesizer, end of problem with the 45, but still no joy with the 9mm either ac or wd.

[MtGun44]

Ditch the TL design, switch to H&G 68 clone with NRA 50-50 lube or similar well proven real lube.

Bill

[Willbird]

The way I read it, boolit hardness didn't matter. The problem reared it's head when the charge was increased from 4.0 to 4.6 grs. of Bullseye. I use Win 231 but understand wanting to use what is on hand. If the oal is set to be flush with the barrel hood or a hair longer leave it there. Go back to the hard boolits and if you are tumble lubing, instead try spooning lube in the boolit groove on a few and give them a try. Tumble lubing has not impressed me a bit. Good Luck

LongPoint

I used to buy some cast bullets from a guy about 15 miles from where I grew up, I had everything to cast but I was and could work some OT then....and he sold 500 pretty cheap so I used them in 45 acp. They were great at 4.0 of Bullseye, but try 5.0 and as you say they would lead from ctg to muzzle. He was not nearly a smart a guy as most folks here, he really loved the idea of making them so hard he broke the handle on his Star sizer and had to have a monster one made. He used some kind of crayon type of commercial lube that he referred to as "teflon" (I doubt it had any ptfe in it). I have never succeeded in making as poor a bullet as he made and sold ;-).

Bill

[44man]

I use quite a few TL boolits but I lube them with Felix and they shoot super.
I tried Alox and other TL stuff and none worked for me.
Gear made some good points to look for.

[Pitchnit]

I'm not shooting a TL design its a lee 200 swc regular lube groove. I got to looking at the fit to the throat. With the .453 diameter boolit, I move the col from 1.235 out to 1.250 where I was at before. I pushed it in to seat on the front of the case and found it was shaving lead just ahead of the case (the thumbnail width portion just ahead of the crimp. When I tried this with some commercial .252 this did not happen. Will shoot some and see what happens. Interestingly the commercial dia. runs .452-.4525 so its really close. Regards-Pitchnit

[Fluxed]

I see a lot of posts these days about otherwise well-thought-of guns (and have had one such gun myself) that don't have correct chamber and throats. What you just described sounds like you should check that out next.

[prs]

Gear's post #13 describes my Ruger SR1911 to a "T". Lyman's copy of the 200gr SWC leads like crazy with TL, Recluse, Emmert's, or NRA. That front shoulder of the boolit gets rolled back and then ridden over as it goes down the bore. The Lyman boolit that sort of mimics the hardball design does not lead regardless the lube type. TL452-230-SW Lee leads a little regardless the lube, Lee 452-230-TC leads only slightly regardless the lube type used. After extended firing the sharp shoulder where the chamber ends gets a little ramp of lead built up on it that I have to remove with a dental pick. The chamber is "generous" of diameter and accepts form fired cases nicely, so I set the size die to only size that area of the case that is occupied by the boolit and thus the fit of the ammo is excellent, but that sharp edge still peels away some lead of most boolits. I would be happy with casting only the Lyman round nose 220 grain booit, except even with a 4 cavity mould it is way slow to use compared to an aluminum 6 banger.

Gear, what is the model number of the reamer you used. Was it a Manson or other?

prs

[MtGun44]

Boy, that does sound like it needs a throating. Sorry to hear that. The gun seems to be a
really nicely turned out version of the 1911, too bad they left out a throat in the barrel.

Bill

[Pitchnit]

I shot 50 of the commercial cast .452 over 4.6 Bullseye tapered crimped at .470 tonite. It only had a bit of lead starting at the throat and extending into the barrel approx 1/4 inch. Cleaned out easily with chore boy and hopes. I am interested in learning more about the correct barrel configuration and reaming the throat. I hear the process is easily performed by most anyone. Kinda like just insert and turn. I understand dimensioning and metal working to a degree, so I am confident I could accomplish the task, but am kinda anal about the details and don't want to try it without a good understanding. If anyone could offer advice I would be appreciative. Regards-Pitchnit

[geargnasher]

513-053-441WB

Use a professional-grade cutting oil (regular oil won't do) and don't ever turn the reamer backwards. Do a little at a time until the .452" boolits don't shave (make dummies with boolits seated too long to chamber and tap them with a plastic/rawhide mallet to check throat shaving). You basically will end up with a throat entrance somwhere around .455" or a hair larger before it won't shave a .452" boolit with a fully-resized case.

***One more tip, don't over-crimp, leave enough of the bellmouth so that the case will self-pilot and not shave one side of the front band when chambering. I usually crimp most of my .45 ACP to .474" or .4745".

Gear

[runfiverun]

the 452 ish and commercial lube should tell you a lot.
make yours bout the same and try them with some of the lubes previously mentioned. [try a little softer alloy too]
then the reamer if that don't do it.

[Pitchnit]

Before my sizer was .453, it was .452. I polished it open to .453 and thought I did a nice job too. At that time I wasn't getting much leading mainly fouling in the 1st inch or so but that was at 4.0 BE and the 22 BHN lead. So back to .452 I will go and try again with softer PB.

[RobS]

Boy, that does sound like it needs a throating. Sorry to hear that. The gun seems to be a
really nicely turned out version of the 1911, too bad they left out a throat in the barrel.

Bill

My XD was a PITA until I worked on the short throat. Once I made a bit longer and more tapered throat everything for cast boolit shooting in that firearm went much smoother.

[RobS]

Before my sizer was .453, it was .452. I polished it open to .453 and thought I did a nice job too. At that time I wasn't getting much leading mainly fouling in the 1st inch or so but that was at 4.0 BE and the 22 BHN lead. So back to .452 I will go and try again with softer PB.

the .001 larger diameter means .001 more lead to be scrapped off if it is your throat that's giving you issues.

[Pitchnit]

the .001 larger diameter means .001 more lead to be scrapped off if it is your throat that's giving you issues.

Yeah, I'm starting to get it and wondering if I get a .451 should try to polish it open to say .4517-.4518. Or maybe just rent a throat reamer and be done with it. Going to shoot 75-80 at a local club USPSA meet tonite, I'll take another look after that. Regards-Pitchnit

[waksupi]

I would bet softer boolits will cure the problem.

[prs]

Thank you kindly, Gear!

I enjoyed 100 rounds on a cowboy action set up today with that Ruger. The ammo were near max charges of Unique under Lee TL452-230-1R with plain well cured Lee tumble lube. First patch with Ballistol was typical black Unique residue and a little grey lead stain. Second patch also some grey on side one, but almost clean on second side. None of the typical particles or strips of lead that I get with boolits that have a distinct forward shoulder and no loss of accuracy from such leading. Still, I would like the option to shoot the shouldered types of boolits too.

prs

[dragonrider]

I agree with MT44 ditch the TL design. Get a plain base design, NOT Bevel Base. Pan lube and use your current sizer.

[bruce381]

***One more tip, don't over-crimp, leave enough of the bellmouth so that the case will self-pilot and not shave one side of the front band when chambering. I usually crimp most of my .45 ACP to .474" or .4745".

Gear***

Thats what i have seen on my 1911 any leading is ON the bottom of the barrel so i'm now going from .471 to .473/.474

[Larry Gibson]

Pitchnit

"I shot 50 of the commercial cast .452 over 4.6 Bullseye tapered crimped at .470 tonite. It only had a bit of lead starting at the throat and extending into the barrel approx 1/4 inch. "

That alone is telling us you have a lube problem with your own bullets. Your home made lube concoction is not working. All the rest is over thinking the problem. I have shot thousands of hard cast (18 -22 BHN) bullets of .451 & .52 that were lubed or relubed with LLA. Try straight LLA as per the instructions or pan or hand lube some of your bullets with with a NRA 50/50 lube or BAC and try them.

Larry Gibson

[Willbird]

My XD was a PITA until I worked on the short throat. Once I made a bit longer and more tapered throat everything for cast boolit shooting in that firearm went much smoother.I have not shot a lot of lead in mine yet, but it has been showing a tendency to lead, I wondered how hard that melonite process made the barrel. Sounds like you could cut it without ruining the reamer ?

Bill

[Pitchnit]

Larry et al,

The .452 commercial is from Penn Bullets so it has what ever lube they came with. Do you think a coat of Recluse would help? I am out of alox at the moment. I'm kinda buying into the throating thing. Regards-Pitchnit

[40Super]

On Penn bullets it should be Carnuba Red, the commercial grade. It's a little hard but still CR. I've used Penn in the past with no lube issues.
My XDM is tight chambered a has/had a sharp leading edge into the rifling that tends to lead the first 1/4". Through use it is getting less sharp. I also polished the bore with a cotton mop and metal polish. That helped, the rest of the bore is a mirror, even after 200 rounds.

[Fluxed]

I have not shot a lot of lead in mine yet, but it has been showing a tendency to lead, I wondered how hard that melonite process made the barrel. Sounds like you could cut it without ruining the reamer ?

Bill

No, you'll kill the reamer.

[Boolseye]

I just have to weigh in briefly, since I have the mil-spec version of the same gun.
I have never had a trace of leading for any reason, and I shoot that same boolit all the time.
I pan lube them, but I have no doubt that 45-45-10 would be fine too.
It really sounds like something is up with the gun–judging from your first post, you're doing everything right, load wise.
You could try filling that lube groove up with some traditional lube and see if it makes a dif.
I size to .452 always. Your alloy should be fine, could go softer with no problems. This is not generally a fussy load or caliber (in my experience), which is why it seems odd. Also this is my 500th post :)

[Larry Gibson]

Larry et al,

The .452 commercial is from Penn Bullets so it has what ever lube they came with. Do you think a coat of Recluse would help? I am out of alox at the moment. I'm kinda buying into the throating thing. Regards-Pitchnit

If your .45 minimally leads with the lube used on those commercail cast then your "Recluse" is not doing the job as it leads more. If it was the "throating thing" your .45 would lead horrible with the commercial cast. As I said before, don't over think the problem, get some LLA and use it per the instructions. If it works good. If not then go to a better lube such as BAC or a NRA 50/50 lube. You can pan lube or hand lube enough to see if that lube works. It is difficult to sometimes admit we may have messed up a batch but the "Recluse" you've made isn't working and is giving classic signs of lube failure. You already tried another lube with the commercial cast and it works better. Switch to a known product and see if it works....that is the easiest ans simplest course.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

+1 on what Larry said. Lube quality sounds like it needs to be explored. I always recommend starting
with NRA 50-50 and once you have it all working, THEN start trying other stuff - ONE thing at
a time.

Bill

[Pitchnit]

I was able to inspect the throat with a 10X eye loupe today. At the lead of the throat 1/2 the circumference has a slight bevel (mainly just a good corner break) and the other 1/2 had a very sharp edge. There was also a burr in one of the grooves adjacent to a land. I removed the burr with a jewelers file and filed the sharp corner on the lead of the throat to match the other half of the barrel. It looks pretty good. Hope I don't learn another lesson here. I lightly polished the chamber and the throat lead in. A dummy round of the .453 bullet seated an 1.250 and lightly tapped in to headspace on the cartridge shows the throat lead and lands bud didn't show any evidence of shaving as it did previously. I tumbled 50 of the commercial .452 (actually mics .4525) with 2 coats of straight Lee alox (I found a tiny bit) and will load and shoot in the morning. Regards-Pitchnit

[RobS]

I was able to inspect the throat with a 10X eye loupe today. At the lead of the throat 1/2 the circumference has a slight bevel (mainly just a good corner break) and the other 1/2 had a very sharp edge. There was also a burr in one of the grooves adjacent to a land. I removed the burr with a jewelers file and filed the sharp corner on the lead of the throat to match the other half of the barrel. It looks pretty good. Hope I don't learn another lesson here. I lightly polished the chamber and the throat lead in. A dummy round of the .453 bullet seated an 1.250 and lightly tapped in to headspace on the cartridge shows the throat lead and lands bud didn't show any evidence of shaving as it did previously. I tumbled 50 of the commercial .452 (actually mics .4525) with 2 coats of straight Lee alox (I found a tiny bit) and will load and shoot in the morning. Regards-Pitchnit

There you go now it sounds like you are on your way; the 45 auto isn't a picky round really. I've shot soft alloys for HP's round, hard BHN boolits because they simply shot better and everything in between. If the boolit fits, reloading practices are solid, and there's adequate lube for the boolit/powder combo you should be good to go providing your firearm is on the up and up.

[40Super]

The shallower the rifling is in your particular barrel the harder the alloy should be to prevent skidding. I have one barrel(a Kart no less) that the rifling is(to me anyway) too shallow, and that barrel shoots 16 to 20bhn best. By the time I got to 12ish bhn, my groups started scattering and trace leading began. Other barrels have rifling that look normal and are nice and crisp, then 12 shoots just fine.

[Pitchnit]

I shot 50 of the commercial .4525 lubed with 2 coats of straight liquid alox. No lead, zero, zip, nada anywhere in the bore. So now I know it can be done and I have a baseline to work from. I think next I will try the commercial without the alox to try to confirm if it was the lube or the throat. Thanks all. Regards-Pitchnit

[40Super]

Shall we lay bets that it was the sharp edges?? Now you'll be having fun .

[Larry Gibson]

I shot 50 of the commercial .4525 lubed with 2 coats of straight liquid alox. No lead, zero, zip, nada anywhere in the bore. So now I know it can be done and I have a baseline to work from. I think next I will try the commercial without the alox to try to confirm if it was the lube or the throat. Thanks all. Regards-Pitchnit

If it 'twas the throat it would have leaded with the abve load.

Larry Gbson

[Tbird]

lswc sized to 452..no lead