Bullets smashes and bulging down while seating...

[wiederlader]

Hi Folks...

I have a serious problem while seating the the boolit in to the case. The boolit smashes while seating down to the case, bulges some amount and get oversized causing serious feeding problems...I can see the sign of pressure on the tip of the boolits...A new flat surface appears on the tip of the round nose bullets and the flat area on the tip of the truncated bullets definitely enlarges...After seating and crimping, I drop the cartridge to the chamber and it does not feed. Then I push the cartridge through the sizing die, the bullet down sizes again and begin to wobble. I push the whole cartridge again through the seating and crimping die, and I finally get a catridge drop freely to the chamber...

I cast with pure lead added % 5 to % 10 tin and water quench the boolits.
I use Lee 120 TC, 125 2R and TL 124 TC molds.
I do not size the TL 124 TC, I size the 125 2R and the 120 TC to .357 by Lee push through bullet sizer.
I use S&B, Geco or whatever the once fired range brass I can find.
I flare the case mouth as much as the boolit seats freely till the lube groove of non-thumle lube boolits.
I use RCBS Piggyback in both single stage and progressive manner.
I use Hornady three die set with straight taper crimp setting.

Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks for the advance.

Best.

[WHITETAIL]

You have answered your own problem.
Do not use pure lead.
even with a5% tin added.
What you need is to add some magnum
bird shot to your mix.:castmine:

[NSP64]

Welcome to the board Wieder lader.
Where are you located?
loading 9mm?
Your adding too much tin.
Can you get wheel weights?The clip on kind not the stick on.
How are you sizing and lubing the boolits?
Then water drop them, straight from the mold into a bucket full of cold water.remove from the water. Let them sit around for 2 weeks to age harden. Then add a slight flair to the cases to 'bell' the mouth slightly.
adjust your seating die to only staighten the case out,no crimp.
Do not use the LEE factory crimp die.it will make the boolits under size and cause leading in the barrel.

[wiederlader]

Thanks a lot WHITETAIL...

Will casting with the wheel weights also solve the problem?

Dear NSP64, thanks for the welcome.

I load 9 mm. Yes, I can get wheel weights. I already water quench the boolits. I also wait at least one week before loading, but not two weeks mostly.

I lube with % 60 beewax and % 40 vaseline and sizing the boolits with Lee push through sizer. I do not size the TL 124 TC and thumble lube them.

I will decrease the amount of flare as you suggested. I already do not crimp to much, just to drop the chamber freely and do not use Lee Factory Crimp Die. But I will show special attention to just tapering the case mouth.

Best.

[44man]

You can't harden pure lead or lead with tin. Water dropping those is just convenient and serves no purpose.
Water dropping WW boolits will make them hard. Just age for a week. You should size and lube right away and just let them sit.
Avoid stick on weights in your mix, some are pure lead, zinc or other metals even aluminum.
Lead must have tin, antimony and a trace of arsenic to harden and clip on WW's are good enough.

[NSP64]

Using clip on wheel weights (COWW) then water drop to harden. Pure won't harden, even water dropping.
the pure swages down but the brass case springs back, thats why they get loose. Use a pure boolit to slug the barrel then measure to get groove diameter. size the boolits .001-.002" over groove.
Wheel weights have some springback to them.


What gun are you loading for?
measure the inside mouth diameter of a case fired in your gun, this will tell you how big a boolit you can load.

+1 on what 44man said

[wiederlader]

What gun are you loading for?

CZ SP 01 and BHP...


the inside mouth diameter of a case fired in your gun, this will tell you how big a boolit you can load.

BHP feeds the boolits sized to .359, even up to non sized boolits, but the CZ will not feed boolits larger than .358 and 2R ogive with long OAL.

Best.

[NSP64]

you will have to slug both barrels to see if you can use one loading for both guns.
Might have different size chamber and different size goove diameters, or both might have .355,.356 or.357 grooves. slugging will tell you.
May have to load for each gun seperately.

[Wayne Smith]

You are loading a high pressure cartridge and are very likely to find significant leading with an alloy that soft as well. As stated above you cannot harden a tin/lead mix, you need antimony and/or arsenic to temp. harden.

There are a lot of threads here on loading the 9mm. I would suggest you use the search function and spend some time reading before you make any changes. Education comes first, then experimentation.

[NSP64]

I have 2, 38 spec. revolvers and a 9mm that I use the same lee 105gr SWC boolit in, sized .360 for all .

[wiederlader]

Thanks for the replies...

I did not slug the barrels, but as long as the boolits do not smash down and I do not encounter feeding problems, boolits lubed with % 60 beewax and % 40 vaseline, sized to .357 leave minimal leading in the barrels of the both BHP and CZ up to 100-120 rounds, just a grayish color that can be even wiped out by a patch or brass bore brush. And especially the conventional lubed boolits are satisfactoryly accurate. I read all the stickies and all the threads I can find on the 9 mm and I ordered a Lee 105 grain SWC mould and a .358 push through sizer and waiting for them in a few days. I was thinking that the hardness did not matter as long as the boolit is properly sized according to the groove diameter untill I realised the sizing issues due to the smashing down problems with the boolits during seating them.

So, I will slug the barrels, cast with WW and WQ the boolits, lube and size them 0.002 larger than the groove diameter, wait at least two weeks before loading. And see what happens...:)

Thaks again for all the inputs.

Best.

[Blammer]

whitetail is spot on, I would add some WW's to your pure lead 50/50 to stretch it out, forget the tin (or add much less) and keep water quenching.

Wait a week then lube size and load. :)

[MBTcustom]

I think you have too much tin in your mix.
I think there is no reason why you can't make that work.
Buy an M die
Be careful. It is very easy to overdo it with the additive metals like antimony and tin. Too much is not a good thing.

[lwknight]

The 9mm is/can be a very persnickety animal. Many of which have a tight chamber and will not except .357 bullets in standard brass. Many have a low or no forcing cone that makes you seat the bullets deeper.
The 9mm also has to be a pretty a high pressure load to cycle most pistols. That means that you need a fairly hard bullet. If you want good terminal performance you need velocity. To get velocity you need case capacity.
To get the most case capacity you need the bullet seated as far out as the magazine will except. To do that you need a deep forcing cone.

So all in all the 9mm in general can use cast boolits for target practice unless you have all the right variables.
I have 2 Ruger barrels that will shoot .356 bullets and any round that will fit the magazine with velocities in 125 grain bullets to 1350 fps and other 9mm that simply can't get there from here.

[shadygrady]

the ones marked zinc save an send to me

[429421Cowboy]

As has already been said, it sounds like a hardness issue, but i would also suggest making sure you have a seater plug in your die that matches the boolit nose profile if you are getting flat spots on your RN boolits. Several guys on here make custom plugs for boolit noses with epoxy or JB weld to perfectly match your boolits and leave them smash free, this was just one other idea i had.
Good luck!

[Wayne Smith]

GoodSteel mentioned the M die. If you don't know that is the Lyman M die and it is made to expand the mouth of the case to the base of the boolit. This makes it easy to load soft lead boolits. Unfortunately, you almost certainly don't want soft lead boolits! Granted, I would still recommend the M die, but you do need a three part alloy for a high pressure cartridge.

[MT Chambers]

Is it possible that your seating die is not set up properly and you are taper crimping while trying to seat the bullet?
Lots of people load pure lead bullets including very soft swaged lead bullets without the problems that you are describing.

[wiederlader]

Is it possible that your seating die is not set up properly and you are taper crimping while trying to seat the bullet?


I am using the Hornady seating and crimping die...
I do first set the crimp amount with an empty flared case.
Then I do set the seating depth with a dummy adjusted to feed properly into the chamber of the specific pistol.
Might there be something I am doing wrong?
Do you advice using seperate seating and crimping dies ?

Best

[SP5315]

I agree with Blammer, go with a 50/50 mix on the lead and water drop them. The M die will help keep you from swaging your boolit under size while seating. I have found it helpful for my purposes to use a 38/357 M die for my 9mm. Seat your boolit in one step and then adjust your seating die to just iron out the bell on the case. Be sure to check you WW and make sure that you don't let any zinkers slip by, it does nasty things to the melt.

Just my 2 cents

[wiederlader]

GoodSteel mentioned the M die. Granted, I would still recommend the M die,

I will try to get...Thanks a lot...

[MtGun44]

Without antimony and a trace of arsenic, water dropping does nothing to hardness. Tin beyond 2% adds
is not very cost effective. Very little additional hardness and it is quite expensive.

Straight air cooled wwts will work just fine in most situations. I find no need to WD for 9mm with AC WWts.

Lots of good info out there in the stickies. Here is one that may be useful:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Bill

[MBTcustom]

GoodSteel mentioned the M die. If you don't know that is the Lyman M die and it is made to expand the mouth of the case to the base of the boolit. This makes it easy to load soft lead boolits. Unfortunately, you almost certainly don't want soft lead boolits! Granted, I would still recommend the M die, but you do need a three part alloy for a high pressure cartridge.

Yeah, but 5-10% tin? That's solder and will do what solder does to your barrel.
The hardest alloy that I have used for any purpose in my shooting experience has been 5% antimony, 3% tin, 92% lead, water quenched. The worst lead that I ever had to scrub out of a barrel was with a +10% tin alloy. It didn't lead my barrel, it soldered it! Not only that, but I was throwing valuable metal down range with every shot. I can get most pistols to work with less than 2% antimony and less than 1% tin.

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Remember a fellow by the name of Elmer Keith? He used lead/tin (5-6 percent) bullets in his .44 Magnum for years with great success. So, it can be done. No doubt, it is a bit easier to get good results with L-T-A bullets.

Yes, definitely get the Lyman M die to expand the mouth of the case so that you will be able to seat the bullet more accurately.

w30wcf

[Blammer]

in your 3 die set it doesn't have a flairing die?

the M die does the same thing.

[MBTcustom]

in your 3 die set it doesn't have a flairing die?

the M die does the same thing.

your driveway, it doesn't have a small pickup truck?

the Corvette does the same thing. :kidding:
Just kidding blammer LOL!

A typical M die expands the mouth of the brass to provide only .001 of neck tension. A typical reloading expander can leave as much as .005 of neck tension which has the ability to size down the boolit in the neck.
This is why I always use my own version of an M die when loading for my guns.
So other than being a bigger diameter, better suited to cast boolits, another reason the M die is different than the flaring die, is that it places a step in the brass that helps get the boolits started strait, instead of a typical flare that allows the boolit to roll around on its base and it can get started crooked.
They are definitely not the same thing.
Discriminating booliteers know that a few thousandths of an inch in the wrong place can make a huge difference.

[Wayne Smith]

in your 3 die set it doesn't have a flairing die?

the M die does the same thing.

Darrell, only if the 3 die set is from Lyman or is an RCBS Cowboy die set. Otherwise it is likely to be just that, a flaring die, not a neck sizing die.

I'm not sure how much experience wiederlander has in the reloading area and how much he knows about the details of each companies products.

[rond]

I am using the Hornady seating and crimping die...
I do first set the crimp amount with an empty flared case.
Then I do set the seating depth with a dummy adjusted to feed properly into the chamber of the specific pistol.
Might there be something I am doing wrong?
Do you advice using seperate seating and crimping dies ?

Best

You need to set the seating depth of the boolit first, then set the crimp. I think you are crimping the case before the boolit is seated all the way.

[wiederlader]

I'm not sure how much experience wiederlander has in the reloading area and how much he knows about the details of each companies products.

I have been reloading approximately only for two years. I have been only using the Hornady and Lee dies and unfortunately I do not know about the details and differences of the other companies' products. I have loaded and shot thousands of rounds successfully with satisfactory accuracy and with almost none to very little leading...Untill my seating issues appeared...:(


You need to set the seating depth of the boolit first, then set the crimp. I think you are crimping the case before the boolit is seated all the way.

Does setting the crimp after setting the seating depth not change the seating depth set again?

[MBTcustom]

It's a process.
You start by seating the boolit with the die so high that a crimp cannot be established. Once you are comfortable with the seating depth, back the nose punch way out and screw the die in until the crimp is established. Finally, while the ram is still up and the cartridge is seated firmly in the die, screw the nose punch down until it firmly touches the nose of the boolit.
Voila! your die is set.
Unfortunately, if you plan on putting very much crimp on the brass at all, you are going to start shaving lead before the boolit is fully seated. This is why I just buy an extra seating die and crimp in a separate operation. No more shaved lead on the case rim.

[Wayne Smith]

What Goodsteel said. I go on eBay and find a seat die that I can buy cheap. Pull the seat plug out and set it to crimp. This is your last step in loading. If you load for an auto pistol you need a taper crimp die anyway. In your case look for a 9mm taper crimp die and you are home free. It doesn't really matter who made it, they are all made to the same standard.

[Willbird]

I know some differ in opinion, but I was taught at an early age to seat and crimp in separate setups and have always done so, you can iron off flare without actually crimping. If you are not reducing the case mouth beyond straight IMHO you are just removing flare. I do taper crimp semi auto rounds as a separate step. But I try to avoid crimping and excessive flaring wherever possible as it shortens the life if the case.

[w30wcf]

.....A typical M die expands the mouth of the brass to provide only .001 of neck tension......


goodsteel, I have not found that to be the case with the Lyman "M" dies I have ....22 .25, .30. .357. .44, .45. All have allowed a minimum of .004" tension, some a bit more.....

w30wcf

[MBTcustom]

Hmmm, then I must be mistaken. I make all of my own M dies.
I took my info from here:
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm
Sorry if I passed bad info along.

[Bullwolf]

Back when I was first gathering up all of my own equipment for reloading, before I had purchased the many set of dies that I have today...

While loading 9mm I would use a 38/.357 seating die in one station, backed off just to seat boolits with. Then use the 9mm taper crimp die in another station for a light crimp.

Doing this, I could seat and crimp in separate stations and steps, with out having to buy extra reloading dies.

Another benefit of doing this came when I figured out that the expander spud was slightly larger in the 38/.357 flare die. I could borrow that as well to get a slightly larger bell on the case that I wanted for my 9mm over sized cast boolits.

I also figured out I could borrow different profile boolit seating stems from other die sets. My revolver die sets for example often came with many different types of boolit seating stems, compared to auto loader reloading dies. (stems to seat a flat nose, conical, or a wad cutter boolit, instead of just round nose profiles)

Using the correct seating stem, I could get things to fit "just right" and seat whatever boolit style I happened to be loading at the time. Using the appropriately shaped seat prevents you from getting those annoying little nicks on the front of the boolit, that you tend to get when you use the incorrect stem profile for seating.

Little tricks like this we tend learn as we go along, but probably take for granted if someone is just getting starting reloading.

Many years later now, I have quite a few extra custom parts, expander stems, seating stems, single dies for specific uses, and die sets. Even more dies sets as well, after purchasing carbide dies in calibers that I didn't have carbide dies for yet. Now I rarely have to substitute or borrow from other die sets anymore, but sometimes it is still a viable practice.

I also learned that its much easier in the long run to seat and crimp in separate stages. It helps prevent little accidents like crushed case necks, deformed boolits, and shaving lead rings while crimping. Sure it's an extra step, but it's not a race when you are assembling quality hand loaded ammunition.


- Bullwolf

[wiederlader]

Problems solved! Thanks a lot for all the affort and valuable advices!

I was all about crimping set and seating / crimping timing set ups...I first seperated the seating and crimping process by using two seperate Hornady seating / cirmping dies. The first die was set just for seating the bullet without crimping the case, and the second one was set just for crimping. With same alloy the boolits seated smoothly and after crimping the cartridges dropped smoothly the chambers of the BHP and CZ...

Then I decided to reset the Hornady seating / crimping die to seat the boolit and crimp the case mouth at the same station. I carefuly set the crimp, until just the empty case dropped freely the chambers. Then I set the seating plug accordin the OAL I wish. My Lee 358-105-SWC mold and .358 push through sizer have also been arrived, and I casted some amount of 105 gr SWC, 120 gr TC, 125 2R boolits with the same % 5 tin added pure lead alloy and water quenhed them. All the boolits lubed with % 60 beewax and % 40 vaseline, sized to .358. The boolits casted, lubed, sized and loaded just in a few hours...Finally all three kind of cartridges dropped freely to the chambers of the BHP and CZ with proper OAL and all fed smoothly from the magazine to the chambers...



http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8744/dscn7180z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/dscn7180z.jpg/)


I can not wait to shoot the boolits!....I suppose to have an accurate, lead free range trip...:Fire:

Again, thanks a lot for all the contributions to my thread...

Best.

[Wayne Smith]

Don't be in too much of a hurry to say good by to this thread. Wait until you can, indeed, tell us that you had a clean barrel before you do that! It is one of the most difficult pistol cartridges commonly loaded, after all!

[wiederlader]

I suppose to have an accurate, lead free range trip...:Fire:



So, I change my sentence as '' I hope an accurate, lead free range trip...'' ...:oops: