9mm accuracy problems due to leading or something else? Photo.

[vogironface]

I have developed something of a love hate relationship with my Ruger p95 9mm. It shoots jacketed and plated bullets well, but when it comes to cast... (you know the rest of that story). I have been working on this load for 2 years now. While I have made some progress I feel like I have a long ways to go. Leading has been the issue I am trying to solve. I shoot the lee tl356-124-2r cast from ww both air cooled and quenched. I have shot it sized to 356 and shot it as cast (about .357 give or take). I have used alox, lots of alox, 45/45/10, and lots of 45/45/10. I have tried bullseye, unique, 231, universal and Winchester Super Light (still have about 6 lbs) all with various charges. Some are better than others but all lead the barrel. My most recent attempt was to use the 357/38 special expander and seater/crimper from lyman on the 9mm in an attempt to not reduce the boolit diameter. Pulling the boolit showed I was sucesfull. The only time I ever had anything I might call acceptable with accuracy and leading was with something that was probably +P or slightly over (I know, that seems backwards). I did not shoot much of it because it is just to hot. The loads so light that they would not actuate the slide were no good either. The barrel slugs at .3557.

Today at the range shooting the boolits in the cases expanded and seated with the 357 dies as cast and using 45/45/10 over 3.6 wsl I had some beautiful groups of about 8-9 inches at 12 yards. The range officer joked with me that my daughter better not out shoot me. Of course she did. One group looked like a constellation of an almost life size squirrel arching his back and yawning. The groups are horrible. I expected leading but when I got home and cleaned the barrel there was not huge amounts of lead. I shot 60 rounds. The photo below shows the lead that came out with a chore boy and the three patches that had solvent. It does not look to me to be huge amounts of lead.

58332


Sorry for the super long intro and now to the question. Have I won the leading war (at least as much as I will) and if the accuracy is not a lead problem then what on earth do I try next? I have ordered a lee 358-105-swc but that is my last idea.

Thank you.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi
Leading in the 9mm has been a problem for me too.At least sometimes. Accuracy has been more average at almost as good as jacketed loads. Have you thought about gas checks for you boolets?. There is something called plain base gas checks now. Aluminum cups stamped out of pop cans. You put them right on the bottom of the boolet and size them together. I have just started making them. They can be retrofitted to already made boolits too. I haven't fired any yet.I will soon,when time permits. Many others have used them and find no leading and usually better accuracy.
n.h.schmidt

[Gliden07]

Try this thread. I am gathering things to cast 9MM too so I would be interested in your out come.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[Wayne Smith]

You didn't tell us your alloy. Hardness counts even though fit is king. Sounds like you have the loading down and now have to look at the details.

[NSP64]

I have never had good luck using a TL design You might have to break down and get a lubrisizer. You can get used ones cheap.

I shoot a hundred 9mm and get no leading. usinghe lee 105 swc WD COWW at 1000fps from 2 38's and a 9mm.

You need to clean all the copper out of you barrel and quit shooting copper covered bullets.

[alamogunr]

Not sure why you are having so many problems. I bought 2 P95's for my sons and tried them out with both the Lee .358-105 SWC and .358-125 RF as well as the .356-120 TC. All I did was tumble lube with 45/45/10 and load over Unique(don't remember the load). No sizing. I expected to see some differences between the boolets. I guess my shooting ability is not good enough to see differences. All shots stayed on a paper plate at 15-20 yards. I put about 100 rounds thru each pistol and got minimal leading.

Each of these pistols slugged at about .357 and the boolets were over .358.

I did a lot less than you have done to work up a load so I have no idea what the problem is. Slug your barrel to see if you have a grossly oversized bore. One of your boolets should work for this.

[root]

I shoot alot of IDAP with a G17 and my own cast loads.

What I found was this.

120 gn. tc out of a 6 cavity lee sized to 356.
4.3 grns unique

Now @ 4.0 grains boolits fly to the left with nice groups
4.6 gns high and to the right looks like a shot gun pattern.
The 4.3 are dead on point of aim

No leading in barrel. Barrel is a wilson match combat bought back in 1994 ( I KB's the factory one with said boolit mold)

Solid WW water dropped.
4.3 unique

Works like a charm for my setup.

I would suggest playing with the powder charge to see if you can't tighten up the groups.
To me it's a perfect setup.
The truncated cone punches a perfect hole like a wad cutter. ( no keyholes)
No leading 100% reliable and accurate.

[vogironface]

You didn't tell us your alloy. Hardness counts even though fit is king. Sounds like you have the loading down and now have to look at the details.

Wayne. Thank you. I don't have a hardness tester but they are 100% COWW. All zink was removed.

[vogironface]

Try this thread. I am gathering things to cast 9MM too so I would be interested in your out come.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Thank you Gliden. I had read that one and that is the thread that started my thinking in the direction of using the 357 dies. I think it helped a great deal in cutting the leading.

[ph4570]

I would try a 0.358 boolit (non-tumble lube design) lubed with Felix and propelled by Blue Dot. Your air cooled COWW should be fine. First get that bore super clean and free of copper fouling.

[jdgabbard]

I would try a 0.358 boolit (non-tumble lube design) lubed with Felix and propelled by Blue Dot. Your air cooled COWW should be fine. First get that bore super clean and free of copper fouling.

I was going to say the same. A lot of people report not having luck with the 9mm until they size boolits to .358

[vogironface]

I have never had good luck using a TL design You might have to break down and get a lubrisizer. You can get used ones cheap.

I shoot a hundred 9mm and get no leading. usinghe lee 105 swc WD COWW at 1000fps from 2 38's and a 9mm.

You need to clean all the copper out of you barrel and quit shooting copper covered bullets.


So here is my thinking on that. I have a few of these TL boolits that I intentionally loaded with just enough powder to get them out of the bore. Looking at them I notice that the rifling is engraved only on the bands and, of course, not in the groove. The bearing surface of a tumble lube boolit seems to be about half that of a traditional design. If I had known this in the beginning I would have avoided them, but at the time I did not know you could tumble lube a traditional design.

The test I have devised is this. I have cast a few from A mold that was not fully closed and are therefore fat and oval. I will size these which will basically swage out the lube grooves and provide a smooth flat bearing surface. Accuracy would be terrible I would think, but if those loads do not lead where the tumble lube design did then it would seem to confirm that a traditional design would work better for me. One could do this prior to purchasing a new mold if they wanted. I think it should work.

You need to clean all the copper out of you barrel and quit shooting copper covered bullets.

[vogironface]

I would try a 0.358 boolit (non-tumble lube design) lubed with Felix and propelled by Blue Dot. Your air cooled COWW should be fine. First get that bore super clean and free of copper fouling.

I have come to the same conclusion. I think the leading was primarily caused by undersized boolits likely re sized in the seating/crimp die. I think I still have some work to do in eliminating leading. The photo shows some but it is not as though I could recast and shoot the residue. As said above, I think my task is now to work on the details and find the right powder/weights etc. I am going to try the lee 105 gr swc sized to 358 also.

[40Super]

Most of my 9's need .358" to .359" sized bullets(.38 cal molds or custom), after that almost all leading went away and groups tightened up. Harder alloys fixed the rest of any issues. One Storm lake NM barrel needs .3565" , it won't chamber most rounds with a .3575" boolit so I have to keep 2 sizes on hand, but I generally only shoot 1 style boolit out of it, a Lyman 120gr.tc (it drops at.357"max anyways).

[GabbyM]

You need a Lyman M die.
Chances are your bullet is getting swaged down. Since most standard expanders that come with die sets do not reach deep enough into the case for anything but a RN bullet.

[Jkallen83]

i shoot 9mm. i have cast super hard and super soft, never an issue, i use Alox tumble lube. the mold is a 124gr lee mold round nose. also a 38 mold flat nose i use in 9mm as well.

i load with around 4gr of Unique which is dirty but at least it functions the slides.

only issues i had with leading was my first cast dropped too small, after i figured out how to cast properly, everything has been fine ever since.

[kir_kenix]

I usually don't bother scrubbing all of the copper out of pistol barrels. I think you should try sizing .358 or slightly bigger and using any quality lube applied with a sizer of your choice. Some guns don't like certain boolits/designs.

How does this Ruger shoot with jacketed stuff? If it won't group for beans with jacketed, it's not going to start tearing a single hole at 50 yards with cast. Now that you have the leading under control, its just a matter tweaking to get respectable results from here. That lee 105 is a good boolit, hope you find the combo that functions cleanly and shoots accurately for you.

[MtGun44]

Read the sticky.

Bill

[Boolseye]

Vogironface,
are you 100% clear on the twin functions of the Lee FCD? I ask only because many of us do not use the die at all because it can't be used to only crimp–it always swages the case as well, and thus the cast bullet. The only way to avoid this is to take the innards out and put them in the expander die body, sometimes with a nut between the adjuster and crimper to give it enough reach. Feel free to ask if you want to try this and I'll explain it more fully.
-jp

[saint_iverson]

I am curious if the lube grooves are being stripped by the rifling/not deep enough. Would be curious how a deeper, more traditional boolit design would perform. All things being equal, aside from alloy, that really is the only thing left! Maybe your pistol doesn't like the TL flavor. Know that the ease of tumble lubing can be applied to regular/traditional boolit designs as well!

[Harry O]

I also had problems with 9mm Luger cast lead, plain base bullets. I started out with a Lee that had tumble lube grooves. Tried different hardnesses and sizes also without success. I went to a Lyman 9mm with conventional lube grooves and tried hardnesses, sizes, and lubes, again, without success. As someone else said, larger diameter worked better, but not good enough.

I later bought an RCBS 9mm mould set up for a gas check. I had little problems with it and soon settled on a full velocity load. When I posted about it, some of the people here thought that there was something lacking in my manhood for using a gas check, since they did not need one. I later learned that some of them were shooting their plain base 9mm's at less than 1,000fps. Some of my 9mm guns won't even cycle with loads that low. If yours will, you can solve the problem that way (reduce the velocity).

Anyway, if you want trouble free lead 9mm's that are loaded to 1,150 to 1,250fps (like me), get the gas check. I also use gas checks with my .357 Magnum (Lyman 358156) at almost the same pressure as the 9mm, also without problems. It would never shoot with plain base full power loads, either. I load my .38 Special with plain base bullets at less than 1,000fps, but the pressure is a lot less.

[vogironface]

Vogironface,
are you 100% clear on the twin functions of the Lee FCD? I ask only because many of us do not use the die at all because it can't be used to only crimp–it always swages the case as well, and thus the cast bullet. The only way to avoid this is to take the innards out and put them in the expander die body, sometimes with a nut between the adjuster and crimper to give it enough reach. Feel free to ask if you want to try this and I'll explain it more fully.
-jp

jp,

Thank you for your response. I am clear of the function and still use it. I use it because every now and then I get a piece of brass that was not mine and likely shot from a Glock. It's use eliminates the need to check each and every round. I have however moved it to the second station after decaping so that the case gets full length sized but the bullet is left out of the equation. Don't know if anyone else has tried that but it seems to work so far.

[vogironface]

I am curious if the lube grooves are being stripped by the rifling/not deep enough. Would be curious how a deeper, more traditional boolit design would perform. All things being equal, aside from alloy, that really is the only thing left! Maybe your pistol doesn't like the TL flavor. Know that the ease of tumble lubing can be applied to regular/traditional boolit designs as well!

Saint Iverson,

I agree. I think the accuracy is a factor of the boolit size. A forum member is sending me a boolit of larger size to experiment with. That same member also asked me to check the chamber throat and I was amazed how long it was. For the boolit to rest on the lands every single lube band would be exposed. aside from feeding issues it would never work. Still reading and thinking through this but perhaps a larger boolit with a slightly lighter crimp. I tend to not crimp much at all but I might need to do that to get any accuracy. like I say, still thinking that through.

[vogironface]

I also had problems with 9mm Luger cast lead, plain base bullets. I started out with a Lee that had tumble lube grooves. Tried different hardnesses and sizes also without success. I went to a Lyman 9mm with conventional lube grooves and tried hardnesses, sizes, and lubes, again, without success. As someone else said, larger diameter worked better, but not good enough.

I later bought an RCBS 9mm mould set up for a gas check. I had little problems with it and soon settled on a full velocity load. When I posted about it, some of the people here thought that there was something lacking in my manhood for using a gas check, since they did not need one. I later learned that some of them were shooting their plain base 9mm's at less than 1,000fps. Some of my 9mm guns won't even cycle with loads that low. If yours will, you can solve the problem that way (reduce the velocity).

Anyway, if you want trouble free lead 9mm's that are loaded to 1,150 to 1,250fps (like me), get the gas check. I also use gas checks with my .357 Magnum (Lyman 358156) at almost the same pressure as the 9mm, also without problems. It would never shoot with plain base full power loads, either. I load my .38 Special with plain base bullets at less than 1,000fps, but the pressure is a lot less.

Harry,
It warms my soul to hear that you have come to grips with your manhood being questioned. For what it is worth there are many out there who would have thought of you as being only practical, not less manly. :)

I would like to try and find a solution to the accuracy issue without the gas check. Not so much because of expense but for time. That having been said, I did do some looking in our vender section at the plain base gas checks. I suppose if I can not solve it with a larger boolit or powder charges etc then I may do exactly as you did, just with the plain base check. In the event I do I may ask for a referral to any therapist you used to reclaim your tattered masculinity. I like the lee six hole molds and the plain base checks, if they work, would open the options up quite a bit.

[fcvan]

I use the Lee 356-125 2R, and 356-120 TC, and the 358-105 SWC over 5 grains of Unique sized to .358. My 9mm loads when sized to .357 patterned from a smock Glock, and a lone wolf conversion barrel. I switched back to .358 and life is grand.

Last year, I received my CheckMaker for making 35 Plain Based checks. The Glock was already a tack driver but one of my newer 9mm (still not broken in) printed acceptable groups, but not great. The new 9mm stoked with the 120 TC and plain based checks tightened up nicely. I'm digging the gas checks made from soda cans and don't think they are unmanly at all.

[MtGun44]

Lee 356 120 TC with air cooled wwts at .357 or .358 with NRA 50-50 over a full power load of
SP8 (yes, I know you never heard of it, I hadn't either until I traded for 8 lbs) works perfectly
in two Sig 225s, Beretta 92, Keltech PF9, Browning HP, Walther P1. Accurate as ball and no
leading. Using GCs is a solution, but there are simpler, cheaper, easier answers. IME, there
is no real need for GCs in pistol ammo.

How about I send you some of these boolits and you try them? I think it is the TL design
and minimal lube quantity and quality, but until you try a conventional design and lube
you won't know.

Bill

[MT Gianni]

I would take that tl design as far away as possible. Start with a boolit you can size to 358 and that has a tradition lube groove. I had a p-89 and I am sure that your trigger is better than mine was. The 2nd best day I had with it was when I took it out the door of my lgs, best day was when I sold it. Too heavy, too heavy of a trigger and jword bullets were all it liked.

[Boolseye]

jp,

Thank you for your response. I am clear of the function and still use it. I use it because every now and then I get a piece of brass that was not mine and likely shot from a Glock.

Gotcha. I've been following all this because I had a two year struggle with a TL boolit, too...I feel your pain :(
It does get better...but there are plenty of therapists out there if it don't :-D