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View Full Version : New guy here, without a clue.



hunt4570
01-11-2013, 01:23 PM
First off, I hope this is the right place to put this..I was pointed this way by members of the Specialty Pistols forum where I am a member...

I've been shooting and reloading for many a year and still learning and experimenting. Recently a member sent me some cast boolits to try out...I've never ever tried cast bullets..they are kind of a mystery to me, so here I am...full of questions..

The bullets I recieved are for my 45/70 14" contender, and a small batch for my Ruger Redhawk in 44 mag.These are all comercial bullets, 300-460 grain in the 45/70 and 300 gr for the 44 mag..

Oh, one of the variety of bullets I got have gas checks, the others do not..do I do anything different with those?

So in general, what is done differently with cast as opposed to loading jacketed bullets? Or do I do the same just following loads in my reloading books?

Also..can I shoot cast out of a semi auto pistol? I've a Glock 22 in 40 cal and noticed at a gun store the other day I could get 500 cast for the price of 100 jacketed... that would be nice..

Thanks in advance for the guidence.

Scott

Bored1
01-11-2013, 01:28 PM
I am not positive but IIRC you may need a different aftermarket barrel for the glock to shoot cast. Something to do with the rifling in a factory glock barrel, can't think of hte terminology off the top of my head.

I am just starting out also, but to my understanding the difference between non gaschecked and gaschecked boolits is that the ones with gas checks you can push to higher velocities than without. I believe you want to start using the gc around 1400 ft/sec velocities. I may be wrong but theres a start to answering some questions. Someone else should be around shortly to chime in.

Hope it helps some.

Oh do a search for glock with cast should pull up ALOT of reading for you!!!!

Almost forgot: **** WELCOME TO THE FORUM******

hunt4570
01-11-2013, 02:00 PM
Thanks..I guess my biggest question is the difference in loading cast as opposed to jacketed..don't want to screw up my first time out..

7Acres
01-11-2013, 02:26 PM
First off, I hope this is the right place to put this..I was pointed this way by members of the Specialty Pistols forum where I am a member...

...Also..can I shoot cast out of a semi auto pistol? I've a Glock 22 in 40 cal and noticed at a gun store the other day I could get 500 cast for the price of 100 jacketed... that would be nice..

Thanks in advance for the guidence.

Scott

This week I ran about 100 cast boolits for the first time through my Glock21 in one practice session. No issues whatsoever. I checked the barrel between each mag just to keep an eye on any leading. The .40 does have some differences (6 groves instead of 8 with the G21, and higher velocities on the .40 vs .45). These differences would make Glock's .40 somewhat less ideal for lead. But just do some shooting with frequent barrel inspection till you get comfortable with how many rounds you can run through it before you feel you need to clean it. I've got 100 through my stock polygonal barrel and I feel I could keep going without issue.

I would be interested to hear of your results. I've got a good friend with a Glock 22. I think eventually he will want to learn reloading. Would be nice to introduce him to cast boolits too.

MBTcustom
01-11-2013, 02:27 PM
Welcome!
The biggest difference between jacketed and cast, especially with the calibers you have mentioned, is the size of the boolits. With jacketed, you use bullets that are the same size as your groove diameter, but when shooting boolits you need to make sure you are running them .001-.003 over groove diameter.
How do you determine groove diameter? Well, it aint written on the side of the barrel! You need to slug your barrel in order to find this out (read the stickies).
If your boolits are not oversize then you are going to lead your barrel, and you wont have any accuracy.

Another consideration, is that you must purge all the copper foweling out of your barrel before shooting cast lead. (Use Sweets 7.62 or similar).

If you follow a few simple rules, then you can shoot all of the guns you have mentioned at full speed and equal or better accuracy than jacketed bullets. Also, they are far superior for hunting, and cost much less which gets you behind your guns more often.

Moonie
01-11-2013, 02:35 PM
You do not need an aftermarket barrel to shoot cast in the glock, there is a sticky around here somewhere that covers that quite well. Yes normally, with the exception of high velocity rifle loads, you can usually use loads similar to jacketed loads, always reduce and work up of course. Gas checks are normally only needed for loads above 1,500fps or so, usually not needed for even magnum level handgun loads but might be needed for higher velocity 45/70 loads, I don't have experience with 45/70 however.

wv109323
01-11-2013, 06:29 PM
One thing the others did not mention is the necessity to bell the case mouths. With cast Boolits ,if the case neck is not belled then the case mouth can shave lead off the side of the cast Boolit when seating the bullet. This will definitely cause accuracy problems. Of course all the belling must be removed and a slight crimp is needed with the boolit seating.
Another thing to watch for is the distortion of the cast bullet when it is seated. As Goodsteel mentioned the cast Boolit is usually .001 to .003 larger than bore. Most reloading dies are manufactured with the dimensions to load jacketed bullets. The neck sizing die for jacketed bullets is around .001 to .004 undersize to provide neck tension with a jacketed bullet. The Boolit is .003 over and the sizer is .004 under then there can be bullet distortion. Usually the brass expands and will not cause you problems. Just be aware of this.
As a general rule I try not try to get the velocity out of a cast Boolit that one can get with a jacketed bullet. To compensate I usually try to increase Boolit weight.
The most lethal Boolits for game are the large meplate or commonly called round flat.

La Dano
01-12-2013, 01:06 AM
I'm in the same boat Hunt45-70

MT Chambers
01-12-2013, 01:24 AM
To take best advantage you should cast your own, you can get any design that you want, size them to whatever size you need and make them out of whatever alloy(hardness) that you want.

mpmarty
01-12-2013, 01:28 AM
I use plain base (no checks) in 45/70 and 308 win. and have no problems with leading at all. Size the boolit to be 1, 2 or even 3 thousandths over bore diameter and use medium burning rate powders such as RL-7, 3031 etc in both cartridges. I use 350gr hollow point boolits in my 45/70 and 180gr hollow points in the 308. In both cases neither rifle has ever had a jacketed bullet fired in it.

hunt4570
01-12-2013, 11:41 AM
Thanks everyone, seems easy and a project all at the same time. Seems I need to "slug" all the barrels I'm going to try to load for, went looking in the stickies and the only reference I found was to a video, that looks like now is a video about the 5 guns everyone should own, not slugging a barrel..I'll keep looking I guess. And "belling" the end of the case...is that any different than flaring the case to take a jacketed bullet? And as far as casting my own...well I'll have to figure out how to load cast, then I'll worry about casting..Hmmm...where to start...

La Dano
01-12-2013, 01:03 PM
I've just started loading myself, and now I want to cast. There's a lot to the whole system but its not rocket science. Take your time, go by the steps and keep consistent. I read everything I can, Manuel's and Internet. My Gunsmith gave me a hands on coarse. We loaded J bullets and some cast for my mauser. When I shot the cast, I got hooked instantly. Now my local reloading shop is having a reloading class next Sat, I signed up for that also. I've invested a lot if money and time in this, wanna do the best job I can. It's a lot if fun and personal satisfaction. Good luck

Gibson
01-12-2013, 01:21 PM
Thanks everyone, seems easy and a project all at the same time. Seems I need to "slug" all the barrels I'm going to try to load for, went looking in the stickies and the only reference I found was to a video, that looks like now is a video about the 5 guns everyone should own, not slugging a barrel..I'll keep looking I guess. And "belling" the end of the case...is that any different than flaring the case to take a jacketed bullet? And as far as casting my own...well I'll have to figure out how to load cast, then I'll worry about casting..Hmmm...where to start...

Slugging:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?47779-Slugging-the-barrel-help

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Lead shaving prevention:

I use the Lee Universal Case Expanding Die. It is an extra step beyond the Powder Though Expanding Die.

Nose Dive
01-12-2013, 01:57 PM
Welcome to the forum guys! Suggest you 'read the stickies'...All of 'em. Yep... Take the time, few hours at least .... You will gain 'years' of experience and knowledge in those few hours. Smelting, casting, load and boolit compositions.... it all there! Plus...the fellas will help you miss some of the 'dangerous' mistakes that neophytes can make. Yep..you can get hurt smelting and mixing alloys and these fellas will tell you just how to avoid all that.

Remember...'it fun if you're hurtin'.

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

hunt4570
01-12-2013, 01:59 PM
Ok so I read the directions with the Mosen, clear directions on how to do this, thank you very much! However..they were reccomending a bullet .002 less than the diameter if the slug, and here you are saying to go .002 larger than the slug diameter..is that correct?

fcvan
01-12-2013, 02:02 PM
+1 on cast through factory Glock 40 barrels. I had run thousands of cast through my Glock before I ever read about there being a 'so called' problem. Having shot cast boolits since the 70s I had been educated regarding alloy, fit, lube, pressure, etc. Making sure there is no copper fouling in the bore is a good start.

I didn't know that running a Lee 401-175 TC, cast from range scrap, sized to .401, lubed with various lubes, and shot with 5 grains of Unique, was supposed to lead my barrel so much that it explodes. It didn't. Apparently my Glock 22 didn't know either, and neither did my Glock 23. I'm not going to tell them :) I did, and still do check the barrel for leading and inspect the brass for pressure signs.

5 grains of Unique is no barn burner, and is pretty much a starting load according to various published sources. I did start out with air cooled wheel weight, shifted to 50/50 WW/range scrap and eventually shifting to straight range scrap. The lube I started with was Javalina, RCBS when I ran out of that, some home made loob, Rooster Red, and lately Lars BAC from White Label, a vendor here. Good stuff, very reasonable, and excellent service.

Although I am very happy with that load, I will be playing with that boolit and the Lee 401-145 SWC with plain based gas checks. I will try some loads that are on the upper end of velocity just because, but will likely stick with 'old faithful' in the long run. I will also run some PB checks with my standard load just to compare groups. Cast works just fine in Glocks but you have to do your part in assembly, inspection, and monitoring the way the weapon performs with your loads.

hunt4570
01-12-2013, 02:08 PM
Any suggestions on comercially available cast for my glock..I want to try loading and shooting before I get into the whole casting thing. Did you slug your glock barrel before you started? Thanks..

fcvan
01-12-2013, 02:16 PM
I didn't slug my barrel initially, I just sized a boolit and tried to fit it into the muzzle. Later, I took a sized boolit and pushed it through the bore. It was tight and the rifling engrave the entire boolit. I suppose I should slug and measure but it isn't broken so I'm not fooling with it. Scott, look for a PM. Frank

hunt4570
01-12-2013, 02:22 PM
<<Scott, look for a PM. Frank >>

I will do that

blackthorn
01-12-2013, 02:23 PM
If I read the original post correctly you have been provided with some cast bullets that are all ready to load. SO---what you have is what you got and they will either work in your firearm, without leading, or not! With cast, "fit" is King! To have the best chance of success, your cast bullet should be 1 to 3 thou larger than the groove size of your gun (as mentioned). At this point you need to ensure the ready-to-load bullets are given the best chance of being loaded in a way that will do all that can be done to prevent leading. The way to provide that chance is set out in the stickys and, while I realize it may be a bit daunting, the "search" function is your friend. I would start with searching for posts on the loading, reloading process and, crimping. The slugging of the barrel will be more usefull when you are ready to move up to buying your mould(s) and sizer(s). Welcome to the addiction and have a great day.

hunt4570
01-12-2013, 02:26 PM
Thank you much..I'll start reading the stickys...I guess I was hoping this would all be easier..

Gibson
01-12-2013, 02:46 PM
Ok so I read the directions with the Mosen, clear directions on how to do this, thank you very much! However..they were reccomending a bullet .002 less than the diameter if the slug, and here you are saying to go .002 larger than the slug diameter..is that correct?

.002" over groove will likely be fine in most instances.

And it is "easier". As with most things, pedantry makes it appear harder. It is a very simple thing that can be very complex.

With most of these folks it's about perfecting the craft. . . you can obtain reasonable bullets that shoot reasonably well and lead somewhat minimally without being Gauss. Get your feet under you and enjoy it.

MtGun44
01-12-2013, 10:49 PM
Don't overthink this. Spend time with one of the good books, like Fryxell's online book and
then JUST DO IT.

Bill