Long range boolits for 30-06 and 270 Needed

[Linepipe]

I am wanting a mold (can be different brands, etc) for each the 30-06 and the 270 than can go the distance accurately - goal is 6-800 yards. My current flat nose molds aint gonna cut it. Do you guys have any suggestions and experience with this?

A cast like the Sierra Match King profile, maybe?

[Blammer]

NOE 311365 for the 30 cal.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN8443.jpg

no suggestions on the 270.

[Baja_Traveler]

Yep - what Blammer said. The exact reason I got on the 311365 GB - of all the moulds out there, that is the one with the most long range potential for my old miltary bolt guns.

[Linepipe]

Kind of a detailed question, but is there any BC info on it? Pretty sweet looking round, bearing surface is larger than others I have seen for the 30 cal.

Also, how fast you guys figure you are pushing it?

[Baja_Traveler]

I've only had the mould a few weeks, so I haven't had the chance yet to work up a long range load. I did however do some load testing with my Finnish Mosen for the military bolt silhouette shoots, and have an accurate load for that - rams are only at 200 yards though. We won't be back over on the long range side of Pala until my next BPCR match the first saturday in Feb.

[asp]

I can't find info for the 311365, but I found some for the 311299 (approx same weight) and it seems like 2400-2500 fps is getting to be the limit but more realistic results are closer to 2000 fps.

I made some of the 311365 using my friend's mold and plan to use them in my Marlin XL-7. I've made .4" groups with it at 100 yards with jacketed handloads, but this is a new beast. I plan to start with 42 gr IMR 4064 and 48 gr IMR 4350 and work my way up. Hopefully I can get these to perform as well. I will report back when I have results (might be a few weeks). I don't have a chronograph unfortunately.

[Linepipe]

ASP, roger that on cast being a different beast. I have achieved a consistent .3 - .5 group with SMKs and SGKs (although some of you bench resters dont really consider that consistent, I know), but that is around 2900 fps and with 168 and 165 grain bullets respectively. Slowing down to 2000 - 2400 is going to be a change in the game for sure.

[303Guy]

Slowing down to 2000 - 2400 is going to be a change in the game for sure.
Might I ask in what way?

Something on those long pointy boolits - the alloy will need to be able to support that nose under acceleration. A shorter, blunted spire point would have a slightly lower BC but could possibly be driven faster due to more bore support up front which might well negate the difference in BC. Or not. Just throwing that one out there for consideration.

But since cartridge is a high capacity 06, a higher sectional density boolit could be driven to those expected velocities and those would have a higher BC. You could drive a 240 grainer with a 1-in-10 twist.

[geargnasher]

I am wanting a mold (can be different brands, etc) for each the 30-06 and the 270 than can go the distance accurately - goal is 6-800 yards. My current flat nose molds aint gonna cut it. Do you guys have any suggestions and experience with this?

A cast like the Sierra Match King profile, maybe?

First requirement is that it remain supersonic at the stated range. Next requirement is that you can obtain accuracy at the muzzle velocity required for this. If you can't do it with a flat nose, you certainly won't with a pointy boolit.

Gear

[runfiverun]

re-read post 8 and 9.
go head and try 48 grs of 4895 in the 0-6 and post up the targets at 300 yds...

[mpmarty]

High BC cast boolits have never worked for me at anything close to decent velocity. As the velocity climbs over 1400 fps the groups grow in size exponentially.

[wmitty]

Linepipe

I'd suggest the rcbs 180 sp as possibly being closer to what you may be looking for. I was interested in doing exactly what you have described several years ago when I first became a member/addict. Maybe you can detect the slight amount of, shall we say, skepticism exhibited by those gentlemen whose posts counts resemble zip codes. Their comments are well worth heeding. I am not trying to discourage your efforts, but there is a reason that high b.c. cast boolets are not what the members of the cast bullets association are posting as the boolets used to shoot the incredible groups they shoot.

[Linepipe]

Might I ask in what way?

Sure, I'll explain: where I shoot the bullet has to cross a gorge that lines up about 45 degrees or so with the prevailing winds. I shoot from the top of the gorge, into it and out the other end. The wind is always blowing and makes for a challenging shot. Every time I change bullets it means a different drop charts, etc. The usual stuff. Time of flight = more wind deflection, that is all.

I remember last year I was looking through my scope at the target waiting to take a shot and watching the grass - left to right up by me, swirling like a bathtub drain at 600, and right to left at the target. Ugh. Very informative day though.

[Linepipe]

Wmitty, I have no problem with listening. The example of a cast bullet like a SMK was a question, not a statement. If there is a set of moulds that have been proven to go that far accurately in a 30-06 I am more than willing to take the advice. It could be a wadcutter for all I care - the bullet is somewhat of a means to an end (getting to the 600 mark minimum). More than anything else I dont want to be wasting time and money on moulds that are not going to work well for what I need.

Geargnasher, can you explain better your post about not being able to do this with a pointy bullet if it cant be done with a flat nose? What am I missing in translation?


Thanks for the help.

[303Guy]

where I shoot the bullet has to cross a gorge that lines up about 45 degrees or so with the prevailing winds.Hoo boy. That must be a challenge. And I do know what you mean - I've had that once. No way of gauging the wind speed in the middle! Bullet deflection over about 300yds was astounding with a 2800fps high BC bullet. But the wind speed up the gully did seem consistent. I kinda just gave up - no need to pursue it at the time. Now I'm interested in doing the same as you so I'm going to have to learn wind reading and compensation. I think the range goes out to 600yds.

[runfiverun]

reading the wind and mirage is what wins or loses shooting competitions.

if you decide to start shooting cast your equipment is going to change too.
at 1900 fps my drop from 100 to 200 is 5 moa from 200 to 300 it's another 5 moa.
see where this is going.
launching a heavier boolit will help over distance.
if you need velocity you will have to look at some other specialized techniques.
learning to cast is the first step.
measuring the rifle is the second.
case prep is the third [it is not the usual cut ream and champher steps well those are the starting steps]
mating the first three is next.
then mating the boolit to those steps.
then load development starts,and i don't mean the usual steps of trying some different powders at different amounts.
those are just the beginning of high velocity loads, you still have alloy,buffering,and sighting issues then tweaks for distance.
you could just stick a boolit in the case and shoot it at 2700 fps.
it works, no leading either,accuracy is another matter

[geargnasher]

Wmitty, I have no problem with listening. The example of a cast bullet like a SMK was a question, not a statement. If there is a set of moulds that have been proven to go that far accurately in a 30-06 I am more than willing to take the advice. It could be a wadcutter for all I care - the bullet is somewhat of a means to an end (getting to the 600 mark minimum). More than anything else I dont want to be wasting time and money on moulds that are not going to work well for what I need.

Geargnasher, can you explain better your post about not being able to do this with a pointy bullet if it cant be done with a flat nose? What am I missing in translation?


Thanks for the help.

I'm determining your level of understanding before trying to explain it, otherwise what I say may not make any sense to you. You're way back at the beginning. There is no magic mould number unless it happens to fit YOUR rifle, and there have been many-page threads discussing what fit is and means. If it doesn't fit, it won't survive the launch well enough to shoot with any accuracy at the velocities you'll need to remain supersonic at 600. If you go sub-sonic, buffeting can kill the groups at that point due to inducing yaw and an ever-increasing helical spiral, same as with any spin-stabilized projectile that exits the platform traveling faster than the speed of sound.

Your challenge is to achieve accuracy with the velocity required. Pointy boolits tend to slump more due to unsupported nose mass.

So, before anyone can recommend a mould, we need to see a photo or drawing of a chamber/throat cast with the critical dimensions and angles noted. Also, figure the muzzle velocity required to achieve your goals with BCs of, say, .300, .500, .700. For example, you will need about 2,000 fps muzzle velocity to remain supersonic at 600 yards with a .500 BC boolit. Maintaining 1 moa at 2K fps in a .30 caliber is plenty doable, but will require more work than you may be prepared for.

That will give you an idea of what you're up against.

Gear

[Linepipe]

See attached diagram.

58293

[Linepipe]

reading the wind and mirage is what wins or loses shooting competitions.

if you decide to start shooting cast your equipment is going to change too.
at 1900 fps my drop from 100 to 200 is 5 moa from 200 to 300 it's another 5 moa.
see where this is going.
launching a heavier boolit will help over distance.
if you need velocity you will have to look at some other specialized techniques.
learning to cast is the first step.
measuring the rifle is the second.
case prep is the third [it is not the usual cut ream and champher steps well those are the starting steps]
mating the first three is next.
then mating the boolit to those steps.
then load development starts,and i don't mean the usual steps of trying some different powders at different amounts.
those are just the beginning of high velocity loads, you still have alloy,buffering,and sighting issues then tweaks for distance.
you could just stick a boolit in the case and shoot it at 2700 fps.
it works, no leading either,accuracy is another matter

I am very familiar with the results of slower velocities (see above).
I am already casting for my lever actions so good to go there. Could use some improvement, no doubt.

Educate me on case prep -this has me genuinely curious- how different is it from the standard (read jacketed bullet) bench rest techniques that I am already doing (chamfering, annealing, neck turning, neck only sizing, crush fit, jump/jam, etc)?

Thanks

[Blammer]

I have NOT shot much at long range, heck past 200yds is a rarity for me.

this target is what I got with my 30-06, not sure on the velocity.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/File0153.jpg

I would have to look at my notes to see if this is water quenched or not.

I would suspect that water quenching them you should be able to get 2400fps with them.

(I get 2400fps out of my 35 whelen with a 200gr boolit. :) and accuracy to boot!)

[Blammer]

Linepipe, the "case prep" you'll need to be aware of is neck flaring. It's done on pistol brass quite commonly, but not on rifle brass.

The case mouth needs to be flaired so that when seating the boolit you don't shave the boolit. If you shave the boolit accuracy will suffer.

[Linepipe]

Blammer, thanks for the info. Yup, already having to doing that with my marlin 30-30.

That means at least new dies. Good info.

[Blammer]

na, just get the Lee universal case flaring tool, works great!

[Nora]

Linepipe, the "case prep" you'll need to be aware of is neck flaring. It's done on pistol brass quite commonly, but not on rifle brass.

The case mouth needs to be flared so that when seating the boolit you don't shave the boolit. If you shave the boolit accuracy will suffer.

Agreed. In my loading practices I've found that if I flair the neck enough to allow the gas check to enter half way up it's just right.

Nora

[geargnasher]

See attached diagram.

58293

Get on 45 2.1's triple-crimp-groove group buy, several people out there have done exceptional things with that boolit. The Lyman 311299 might work for you, too, it has worked very well in one rifle of mine with a similar throat in the past. Cast boolits from 50/50 wheel weights/pure with a pinch of tin, less than 1% total, alloy temp at 725F and mould temp hot enough for a very light, uniform, satin "frost", cut the sprue while just soft enough to leave a tiny crater in the base but not so soft as to smear, and immediately get them straight from the mould and into a bucket of cold water. Put them in a warm place for a month before trying to shoot them.

Size boolits to an actual .3103-5", then apply Hornady gas checks and size to .312" while lubing in a base-first die. Do not anneal the checks. I'll explain more in a minute so you understand what this accomplishes.

If you're buying lube rather than making it, I'd recommend simply using NRA 50/50 and clean lightly every 20 shots or so, sooner when you see groups just begin to open up slightly. There are far better lubes you can make, and better ones you can buy, but that formula will do what you need and is consistent and predictable from 40-95F. I don't know where you live or what conditions you shoot in or I'd make some other recommendations.

Hopefully you can find some brass with .0145" necks. Uniform them and tune thickness so that loaded necks clear the chamber at the small end with a ballpark goal of half a thousandth total.

Bushing size fireformed brass to an ID of .308 or so, and use a .309" RCBS cast bullet expander spud to uniform the tension preload to about .3088" or so, set the expander deep enough for the case mouth to swallow 3/4 or so of the check just by placing a boolit on top with your fingers.

Use a standard LR primer, whatever you like.

Purchase a Wilson seating die, the $50 one, and hone the neck of the sliding sleeve to your smallest chamber neck dimension, or a bit larger. Pay close attention to whether or not the neck binds in the sleeve, if it does you may want to re-check your boolit size and brass neck thickness. Mic loaded ammo near the mouth to ensure a .0003" (yes, TENTHS) minimum chamber neck clearance. The gas check needs room to get past the mouth while the neck is supported by the sleeve, if it didn't you could simply leave the sleeve a few tenths smaller than the chamber neck and use it for a no-go gauge. The idea is the gas check expands the base of the neck when seated to match the neck taper when chambered. You may or may not need to crimp, it depends on the load. I mostly do not crimp, others always crimp, your rifle will tell you if the load needs it or not. If you need to, roll crimp with a production seat/crimp die, but you may have to hone the crimp collar to not shave your bullets.

Seating depth and powder type/charge are your next challenges. You might start with some flavor of 4350, or slower, the goal being consistent ignition and complete burn with the components, techniques, boolit weight, and barrel you're using. Initially tune the load to a primary lateral barrel vibration node, then fine-tune to the fourth-order longitudinal node so it's just a fuzz past the muzzle. If you have Quickload, there is another program available that works with it to predict both of these and will likely save you some components. Seating depth you'll have to play with in .005" increments, starting with firm engraving marks on the nose and backing off from there. If your ammunition is absolutely concentric, you will not need to seat to engrave the nose and can crimp in a groove if it doesn't coincide with the boolit touching. There is more than one right way to go about this, and you'll develop your own way that works best for you and your rifle, I'm just giving you an idea of a way to go about it based on what works for me.

If the rifle is thoroughly de-coppered, has proper bedding, a good crown, good bore, and you are consistent in everything you do, this will get you started. There's a lot more to it, but you can only really learn that stuff by actually doing, changing one small thing, and doing some more.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i'll pitch in here.
i'd start with a powder slightly slower than the 4350 [aa 4350 not the others]
as you seat deeper to get out of the lands you can then swap to a slightly faster powder to re-gain the nodule.
if you continue to have slight horizontal stringing them a primer brisance change becomes necessary.
pay particular attention to the anneal of the case necks you will find a happy tension where the springback of the casemouth is minimal between re-loads of the case [this is the one you want to maintain]
you wil also want your cases to fit your rifle as close to he end of the chamber as possible.
nevermind what saami says or what some drawing shows.
measure this area and get the brass to fill both ends of the chamber.
note what gear said about case neck thickness and concentricity.
i know gear touched on the alloy and once you have established a baseline load tweaking and manipulating the alloy with copper,sulpher and/or zinc may gain you a few more fps or 10ths.
if you see the poof or notice groups wandering vertically you'll need them
your lube will need to be brought up to snuff also at about three steps ago..

after all this your rifle might not be up to the accuracy tasks and all you have done is make ammo better than the rifle.
hope this helps.

[geargnasher]

Powder is one place where some tricks may be needed to achieve the contradictory goals of slow pressure rise, low muzzle pressure, high enough peak pressure to achieve desired velocity, and clean, uniform, repeatable burn curve. With 200+ grain boolits in the 2100-2300 fps range, 4350-ish powder does ok by itself, although we want slower effective burn rate. Some monkey business may be required to get some of the slower powders to light correctly, such as duplexing and putting things in the cases other than powder. Some slower powders work ok by themselves, RX 19 and 22 are fun to play with sometimes, as are some double-base progressives like Hybrid 100V and WW780.

If you want to get jacketed accuracy beyond the "normal" cast boolit velocities, forget everything you thought you knew about loading and shooting jacketed bullets. Basically quit thinking that your projectile is tough and when the powder lights can rattle around in the throat until it finally jams into the bore centerline, or that it can take .005" case tension without a hitch, or that it's base won't collapse off-center following the weakest spot in the case neck which is unsupported by the chamber for a good ways when the powder hits it in the butt. Start thinking that your boolit is a gecko egg that must be secured in a brass tube and launched to a couple thousand FPS with nearly 40K psi in less than two feet without disturbing the embryo's nap. Also remember that a cast boolit must fit dynamically through the entire firing event well enough that no gas leaks past it, especially after the point that the first full driving band is fully engraved. You're effectively trying to achieve a breech-seating condition with fixed ammunition here by crafting things so that the boolit makes it straight into the bore, up the tube, and out the muzzle without being damaged. Doing so requires a combination of tooling, components, and techniques that work in harmony to keep the dynamic balance of pressure and movement smooth, controlled, and in the right directions at all times.

Gear

Edit to add: None of us have addressed the .270 yet. I'll say that if your chamber neck is larger than .304" at the front (and it will be around .310-11" if it's a factory barrel) you're going to be wasting your time with it at anything above very modest velocities. Don't get me wrong, you can build a 1600 fps tack-driver that will shoot quite a way, but probably not up to the standards you seek. I have a trick to fix that, but it is extraordinarily difficult and tedious to pull off, and makes spending the bucks for a custom reamer and barrel seem very worth while. If you were going to rebarrel, there might be some better choices to consider for cast-friendly chamberings.

[runfiverun]

did you almost mention falsley bumping a pressure spike to increase the pressure rise of the slower powder after the boolit was past the throat.
was the static and mechanical fit mentioned in there somewhere i may have missed it.
it's worth mentioning again.
that should be enough to get started with anyway.

[Linepipe]

Get on 45 2.1's triple-crimp-groove group buy, several people out there have done exceptional things with that boolit. The Lyman 311299 might work for you, too, it has worked very well in one rifle of mine with a similar throat in the past. Cast boolits from 50/50 wheel weights/pure with a pinch of tin, less than 1% total, alloy temp at 725F and mould temp hot enough for a very light, uniform, satin "frost", cut the sprue while just soft enough to leave a tiny crater in the base but not so soft as to smear, and immediately get them straight from the mould and into a bucket of cold water. Put them in a warm place for a month before trying to shoot them.

Size boolits to an actual .3103-5", then apply Hornady gas checks and size to .312" while lubing in a base-first die. Do not anneal the checks. I'll explain more in a minute so you understand what this accomplishes.

If you're buying lube rather than making it, I'd recommend simply using NRA 50/50 and clean lightly every 20 shots or so, sooner when you see groups just begin to open up slightly. There are far better lubes you can make, and better ones you can buy, but that formula will do what you need and is consistent and predictable from 40-95F. I don't know where you live or what conditions you shoot in or I'd make some other recommendations.

OK. All this makes sense and I have the lubrisizer for it so we are good to go there.

Hopefully you can find some brass with .0145" necks. Uniform them and tune thickness so that loaded necks clear the chamber at the small end with a ballpark goal of half a thousandth total.

Uniform thickness at .0145” is a pretty tall order. I have a lot number of Lapua that does this, but even then not all of them. Still have some that dip down into the 13’s every so often and up into the 15’s. Norma might get there, but for all the others this is a lot of rejects in each new bag. That lot of Lapua is already reserved for a certain load so I will try some other. I several hundred 1940’s 30-06 cases that are unfired – I will measure those and see what I have in there for this. I have the tools to neck turn, so we are good.

Bushing size fireformed brass to an ID of .308 or so, and use a .309" RCBS cast bullet expander spud to uniform the tension preload to about .3088" or so, set the expander deep enough for the case mouth to swallow 3/4 or so of the check just by placing a boolit on top with your fingers.

Use a standard LR primer, whatever you like.

Purchase a Wilson seating die, the $50 one, and hone the neck of the sliding sleeve to your smallest chamber neck dimension, or a bit larger. Pay close attention to whether or not the neck binds in the sleeve, if it does you may want to re-check your boolit size and brass neck thickness. Mic loaded ammo near the mouth to ensure a .0003" (yes, TENTHS) minimum chamber neck clearance. The gas check needs room to get past the mouth while the neck is supported by the sleeve, if it didn't you could simply leave the sleeve a few tenths smaller than the chamber neck and use it for a no-go gauge. The idea is the gas check expands the base of the neck when seated to match the neck taper when chambered.

If I am reading this correctly what you are effectively doing is expanding the lower part of the neck to be at or just under the ID of the chamber at the case neck. This appears to be the same thing as a partial neck-only sizing with jacketed bullets, which I have done in the past on certain loads. When used with a crush fit of the brass it is a final alignment of bullet to bore. Is this correct?

You may or may not need to crimp, it depends on the load. I mostly do not crimp, others always crimp, your rifle will tell you if the load needs it or not. If you need to, roll crimp with a production seat/crimp die, but you may have to hone the crimp collar to not shave your bullets.

Seating depth and powder type/charge are your next challenges. You might start with some flavor of 4350, or slower, the goal being consistent ignition and complete burn with the components, techniques, boolit weight, and barrel you're using. Initially tune the load to a primary lateral barrel vibration node, then fine-tune to the fourth-order longitudinal node so it's just a fuzz past the muzzle. If you have Quickload, there is another program available that works with it to predict both of these and will likely save you some components. Seating depth you'll have to play with in .005" increments, starting with firm engraving marks on the nose and backing off from there. If your ammunition is absolutely concentric, you will not need to seat to engrave the nose and can crimp in a groove if it doesn't coincide with the boolit touching. There is more than one right way to go about this, and you'll develop your own way that works best for you and your rifle, I'm just giving you an idea of a way to go about it based on what works for me.

My barrel is 28", so I have some room to work with som different powders, and both flavors of 4350 are in stock.

If the rifle is thoroughly de-coppered, has proper bedding, a good crown, good bore, and you are consistent in everything you do, this will get you started. There's a lot more to it, but you can only really learn that stuff by actually doing, changing one small thing, and doing some more.

Gear

Thanks for the help.

[Linepipe]

i'll pitch in here.
i'd start with a powder slightly slower than the 4350 [aa 4350 not the others]
as you seat deeper to get out of the lands you can then swap to a slightly faster powder to re-gain the nodule.
if you continue to have slight horizontal stringing them a primer brisance change becomes necessary.
pay particular attention to the anneal of the case necks you will find a happy tension where the springback of the casemouth is minimal between re-loads of the case [this is the one you want to maintain]


you wil also want your cases to fit your rifle as close to he end of the chamber as possible.
nevermind what saami says or what some drawing shows.
measure this area and get the brass to fill both ends of the chamber.
note what gear said about case neck thickness and concentricity.
i know gear touched on the alloy and once you have established a baseline load tweaking and manipulating the alloy with copper,sulpher and/or zinc may gain you a few more fps or 10ths.
if you see the poof or notice groups wandering vertically you'll need them
your lube will need to be brought up to snuff also at about three steps ago..

after all this your rifle might not be up to the accuracy tasks and all you have done is make ammo better than the rifle.
hope this helps.

How many shots are you getting in between your annealing sessions? Wondering about the flaring really shortening the case life. I am annealing after every 2 or 3 shots (depending on load used, etc), and am up to 15 shots with no signs of fatigue yet. But - I am only neck sizing and not using an expander ball. Just wondering if the extra flaring is reason enough to anneal after every shot. Currently annealing with my lead pot, temping and keeping notes so that each case is within a 25 degree range (trying to get consistent neck tension and this is the only way I have found to measure it for each case to ensure consistency. If you know of a better way, let me know).

When you are saying to fit cases to the chamber you are referring to a chamber dim. match or a slight crush fit, right? Currently this is standard practice with all of my reloads. All brass is at a crush fit.

Thanks.

[runfiverun]

stop thinking like lead and jaxketed are the same.
you don't want a soft anneal you want a nearly hard anneal.
when you just lose the spring back is about right,you fit the thickness of the case to the chamber with the .015-16 thick necks the boolit is filling everything else and you are only using .001-.0005 neck tension.
the gas check is helping keep the case tapered to fit the chamber [yeah they are not straight]
this is where the powder pressure blip comes into play, the boolit isn't there to take the pressure up into the burn zone the buffer blip is what does it.
remember the protect the boolit at all times mantra, this is from the mold all the way to the end of the barell,and a little bit past it.

[geargnasher]

Yup, hard necks. You need to get that boolit into the bore and as fully supported as it's going to get before the pressure peaks. Using slow-burning powder helps this, and hard necks will take the initial pressure of getting the boolit out of the case without fully expanding, so it acts as a better guide than soft necks and high initial chamber pressure which can allow the boolit base to get pushed to one side and damaged beyond repair when it finally does get squeezed into the barrel. Don't give it anywhere to go but straight, and launch it gently. New brass needs to be run through a standard sizing die (Lee is good for this) about four or five times to work-harden it before shooting. Use a narrow strip of Scotch tape in front of the extractor groove to center the case head in the chamber for the first firing, then yes, it's "crush fit" after that. That's why God invented the bolt-action repeater with a strong extractor and lug cam. For other types of actions, dies can be modified to just "kiss" the case in all the right places so it will plunk right in there but not wiggle.

When you get your chamber neck clearance down to less than half a thousandth total difference between loaded neck diameter and chamber neck diameter (somewhere in the middle of the neck), and have sufficiently hard necks, you will find that it is unnecessary to resize the brass, and also unnecessary to bellmouth the necks. My advice previously about using a bushing sizer and expander is for initial case prep and periodic touch-up only. If your clearances are tight and necks hard, the brass will spring back to what it was before the boolit was seated, i.e. will be smaller after firing than when ready to fire, and will maintain this thousandth to thousandth and a half interference fit with the boolit for many firings. When the tension begins to slack off after several reloads, you will know that the necks are beginning to get too brittle and will need a very, very slight draw, not an anneal, to keep going. You just want to undo a tiny bit of the work hardening. This method works in part because you aren't working the brass very much at all after the initial prep, so it takes a while for it to get too hard just from loading and firing.

I know how difficult it is to get '06 brass that's thicker in the neck area than about .0135" after knocking off the high spots. The other option you have here (for higher velocity shooting, there are other tricks for shooting at 1600 fps), and that is to use larger boolits to make up the gap left by the thin brass. If you ream the throat entrance to accept .312" boolits (most .311 Lymans will not cast this large on the bands with the alloy I specified, but some custom ones will), and sort through your brass only using the stuff that comes out .0140", you'll get there. You might try shooting .312" boolits with the .3106" throat entrance, sometimes that works if the barrel has had a few hot jacketed rounds through it to smooth off the rough edges and let the oversized boolit swage through there without scraping off lead shavings which, unfortunately, will tend to deposit in the bore and muck up the works. You want your boolit's bearing bands to be just a few tenths smaller than the very first part of the throat so as to have perfect alignment (nowhere to go but straight up the pipe) but no shaving and minimal gas leakage around the boolit prior to it's getting fully corked in the bore.

See what Runfiverun meant by quit thinking in Jaxketed terms? This is a whole different ball of wax, and most of your processes are aimed at different ends than jacketed, because the mechanics is different and a lot more challenging. I suspect most cast boolit shooters keep things down below about 1800 fps and are happy with two-inch groups at 100 yards, which is about what you can expect with standard dies and following conventional wisdom, and there's nothing wrong with that for general fun shooting and most hunting, but if you want to up the ante then you're going to have to do things like the jacketed benchrest shooters do, because a cast boolit turns to putty at the pressures required to get above 2k fps, and putty won't shoot straight if it's deformed.

All this, and probably some more in the powder department (your long barrel really helps), should get you into at least 2300 fps territory with sub-moa accuracy. I've done this with an un-modified Winchester model 70 sporter, turning in 3/4" ten-shot groups on demand at 100 yards and up to 2350 fps. I had another one that would shoot holes at 1600 fps, and 1-1/2" or less for ten-shot strings all day any day at 2025 fps, but never could keep it under 2" faster than that because the chamber was sooooo sloppy in the neck. Manipulating the little things can make or break the delicate balance, but once you finally get it dialed in, you GET IT. Like riding a bike.

Gear

[nanuk]

Start thinking that your boolit is a gecko egg that must be secured in a brass tube and launched to a couple thousand FPS with nearly 40K psi in less than two feet without disturbing the embryo's nap.

We don't have Geckoes up here.
We don't even have that insurance company.

Would bullfrog eggs work OK in this instance?
Or should I look around for Salamander eggs to compare to? :kidding:

[runfiverun]

think of ddt ridden bald eagle eggs then.

[Wolfer]

Gear and r5r
I'm one of those 1800 fps / 2" group guys but I'm still impressed with these posts!

[wmitty]

geargnasher,

ref #27

what chamberings would be more cast friendly?

[geargnasher]

Mitty, I asked that very question a while back, maybe a year ago here in this sub-forum. Some interesting responses, it would be worth digging up and reading.

Gear

[runfiverun]

that was before the change over, you'll probably never find it.
i'd start with the 35's no those are too easy. [unless you use winchester brass grr]
pick anything between the 223 and the 35 cal..

i was hoping someone would read all this typing.

[geargnasher]

Gear and r5r
I'm one of those 1800 fps / 2" group guys but I'm still impressed with these posts!

I've killed a lot of deer, turtles, spoiled fruit/veggies, and soda cans with cast boolits in loadings that didn't quite shoot as well as that, had fun and put meat on the table. Heck, I still do. My posts here are directed at the guy who wants to have varmint accuracy at 600 yards with his cast boolits, and that's a whole 'nuther situation.

Gear

[geargnasher]

HA! got it on the first try with advanced. Not as many options, but it's smarter than the old software.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150089-What-makes-a-caliber-quot-cast-friendly-quot&highlight=cast-friendly

Gear

[Artful]

If I was to try and use non-jacketed or paperpatched boolits for longer range I'd probably start with my
NOE 311247 FN Whisper/Blackout - Ballistic Coefficient was calculated by Moonie at .436. Which is the
best one I know of.

[geargnasher]

:popcorn:

Gear

[nekshot]

Alot of good fundamental stuff going on this thread. But for me to think of shooting out to 600 with small calibers in boolits makes my head swim. I take my hat off to you that can, but my goal is 3-5 boolits in 1 moa and I am amazed what can (normally) happens between 100 and 200. I simply don't know if I could keep 5 in the same zipcode at 600.

[Larry Gibson]

"but my goal is 3-5 boolits in 1 moa and I am amazed what can (normally) happens between 100 and 200. I simply don't know if I could keep 5 in the same zipcode at 600. "

There is a reason for nonlinear expansion of groups, especially with cast bullets, as the range increases; to much RPM. Some don't want to believe the ballistic science of that but the evidence continuses to prove it so.

Larry Gibson

[nekshot]

Larry, I know I read you all mentioning this in the past and if I understand then a slower twist is what we need?

[nekshot]

I have been thinking. Is there some sort of formula of dia and length and weight = velocity? If not, why not. That would sure narrow the search down for alot of us in our search for "the load" of choice in a caliber. I have a 300 blk barrel coming next month and a short cut thru that would be nice.

[303Guy]

Some have argued that too much spin is a myth. The RPM threads on this and other forums. But now I must ask about boolit length and weight in relation to spin rate and velocity - does a longer boolit negate the tendency to 'over-stabilize' at longer range?

[runfiverun]

no...

[Larry Gibson]

no...

Quite correct.

It's not a matter of bullet length and weight = velocity. It is a matter of a level of RPM at which nonlinear expansion of groups as the range increases begins.

"Over stabilization" is not a correct term (regardless of the arguments a couple others make on another forum) for describing the RPM threshold either. Bullets can easily be over stabilized and yet maintain linear expansion of groups and good accuracy at longer ranges. The RPM threshold occurs when the centrifugal force acting on the imbalances in the bullet over come normal "stabilization" affect on the bullet causing nonlinear group expansion as the range increases. This is not saying the bullets become destabilized and tumble off in whatever direction though in extreme cases they can. The bullets above the RPM threshold most often still are stabilized and fly point forward. Their line of flight is no long a straight line so to speak but becomes an expanding helical arc around the line of flight. As mentioned in extreme cases the bullet above the RPM threshold may simply go off on a tangent to the line of flight instead of in a helical arc around the line of flight.

The expanding helical arc should also not be confused with initial "wobble" of the bullet and then the bullet "going to sleep". When that occurs the bullet is not above the RPM threshold.

Flyers, especially with regular cast bullets are and indicator of the load with the components used are exceeding the RPM threshold.

The RPM threshold is not a "limit" either and can be at various levels of RPM.

Larry Gibson

[nekshot]

Smoly Hokes, this is one time I am kinda thankful I am not the sharpest pencil in the pack! This stuff could give me a headache and then some. I do appreciate your explanation Larry, but I am gonna stick with 100 yard stuff and the odd 200 yard shooting when I get the itch. Beyond that in smaller bores I'll stick with lead with a copper jacket. I do have one stupid question, is there a caliber where the mass of a boolit overrides this nonlinear monster?(45-70,50-90 etc)

[runfiverun]

you'd be very surprised how accurate a boolit is at 300 yds.

[Artful]

Or farther
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

[nekshot]

wow, Artful that is a good read. It totally blows my pea brain to think of shooting that far, and I still would like to know is there a common cartridge that overrides this linear thing with in 600 yards or I this what it is. I am fine with the answer, whatever it is I simply have a inquiring mind in matters I know nothing about. I love hearing experience speak but tire quickly from theory of thought.

[Larry Gibson]

............. I do have one stupid question, is there a caliber where the mass of a boolit overrides this nonlinear monster?(45-70,50-90 etc)

Most often with cartridges of .35 and larger including the ones you mentioned the twist is slow enough that the bullet does not reach a high enough velocity and RPM to reach it's RPM threshold unless one uses way too soft an alloy thereby reducing the RPM threshold to an RPM attainable safely with the cartridge. Doing such causes imbaances in the cast bulet under accelleration and it is those imbalances that the centrifugal force acts upon. That is why there is no specific "limit" of RPM set as the threshold for all cartridge load componants. With such larger mass bullets as with any; the faster the twist the sooner the RPM threshold will be reached with a given cartridge/load combination. I.E.; the RPM threshold is lower in a 10" twist .30 cal than in a 12" .30 cal and a 14" twist .30 cal.

Larry Gibson

[nekshot]

Ok, thanks Larry that makes sense. Well you will here no more of me on this issue, as I give thought to some bigger calibers in black that have been drawing me.