Twisting tails versus folding or rolling - even tail-less.

[303Guy]

It's been discussed before, I know but I keep hearing 'twisted tails' so once again, has there been any further trials to see how twisting, folding or rolling compares? I can't twist without tearing to save my life. Nor can I pick up a pin from the floor!

So, may I ask for photo's of the different methods used and reports on how well they work for for you?

Here is what I find easy - you've all seen this pic but here it is again.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN011.jpg

Tail-less

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/TAILLESSPATCH005-1.jpg

Remember that I said the idea behind tail-less patching is to eliminate rings and patch bases clinging on the boolit in flight.

Like this.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-770F-1.jpg

[nhrifle]

I don't have any pics to post right now, but most of the PP boolits I use look like yours. I tried the twisted tails thing for a bit, and for no other reason than I just didn't like how it looked, I started making them like you do and I get excellent accuracy. The majority of my patching is for my BPCR, but it also works for smokeless in my Enfield No 4 Mk 1. Also found I get better results from dry patching than wet patching. Dry patches are recovered just a few feet from the muzzle, so they definitely separate in flight.

[303Guy]

Interesting. Thanks for that, nhrifle. I'll be looking forward to when you are able to post pictures. Might I ask what your load details are for your No4? I have one I plan to use for range work with paper patch. I've moved so now I'm a bit far from the range I had in mind where they shoot 600yds with mil rifles. I can still go there - I'm only half an hour on the motorway further.

P.S. It's great to see you with your lady in your avatar!:drinks: Does she share your passion? I'm working on my new lady.:mrgreen:
As you can see, I've taken to using my great nephew in my avatar - he's better looking than me and he shoots better than me! That's my fault since I started him on it. He's done me proud!

[nhrifle]

I cast the Lyman 314299 and size it to .304 in a die I made, then patch it with some tracing paper I found that measures .0025" and brings the boolit diameter to about .313 to .314 depending on how good my technique is on the day I am patching. Most of the loads I have used have been reduced charges for shooting paper and I found that for 200 yd shooting (High Power matches), 7 grains of Red Dot has almost no recoil and I can clean an NRA standard target. The technogeeks with their ARs and so forth were upset with me! For heavier duty loads, 35 grains of H335 works pretty well. I had a load using Varget but forgot to record it.

I'd be proud of that nephew too! I always like to see the next generation starting out and having a great time.

The picture in my avatar was taken in Glacier National Park, Montana on the western side of the Continental Divide. What an awesome trip that was during the summer of 2009. Andrea passed away last January very unexpectedly at 44 years of age. She was an excellent shot having been taught by her grandfather who was a top shelf benchrest shooter. She was a small lady though, so recoil bothered her and she never really enjoyed it but did enjoy our time shooting together.

Sorry to get weepy on you.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Mine also look like yours. I wrap cals. from .303 up thru .416.Robert

[pdawg_shooter]

I prefer the twisted tail myself. I want that paper there to protect and insulate the base of the bullet.

[edwin41]

hello , my bullet design is for the use of gaschecks , maby you remember it from the 6.5x55 mm thread.
i really had difficulties to form a nice tail , my patches are patched soaking wet.
the most easy for me was to twist the end of the patch so it tore off , and because of the gascheck design it left a little lenght
that i fold around the bulletsbase , the result is looking like youre bullets . 303, with the center of the base visible.
when my bullets dried up this is strong enough to put through the sizer.
i might add that my first step is to stick , with water, a small paper disc to my bulletsbase for protection of this base.
these discs i obtain from an office kind of perforator , wich punches the right size for my caliber.
this works great for me ! really love the 6.5x55 mm cartridge !

[Nrut]

I don't have any pics to post right now, but most of the PP boolits I use look like yours. I tried the twisted tails thing for a bit, and for no other reason than I just didn't like how it looked, I started making them like you do and I get excellent accuracy. The majority of my patching is for my BPCR, but it also works for smokeless in my Enfield No 4 Mk 1. Also found I get better results from dry patching than wet patching. Dry patches are recovered just a few feet from the muzzle, so they definitely separate in flight.
In regards to your smokeless patching:

You dry patch and you don't twist tails..

How do you keep the patch on?

[Nrut]

303guy,
What kind of paper are you using?

The secret to not tearing tails when using weaker paper is to not twist it when it is wet!
Just barely push the tube that is formed together..
After the paper is partially dried or completely dried then twist the tail while slightly pushing it toward the bullet base..

Fairly simple if you put your mind to it..
I know you can do it if I can but it takes a little practice..
Oh and I use bullets designed for gas checks but I don't gas check them..

[bcp477]

I twist tails.....I've always twisted tails.....and twisting is much easier for me, for whatever reason. I conducted a comparison test of this, with something like 100 or more rounds of each, to see if it made a difference, years ago....after someone on this forum suggested that anyone who knows what he/she is doing would never twist tails....or words to that effect. I found NO difference in accuracy or any other functional issue - so it became a "non-issue" for me - and I still twist tails, whether anyone else likes it or not.

Oh and I DO twist my tails "wet". Occasionally I will tear one....but I'd say that happens about 1 or 2 times per 100. I don't know why, but I find it much easier to twist tails than to try to do folded bases.

[wmitty]

bcp477

This begs the question: what paper are you using? I have tried to twist the tail using copy paper and it always tears off in my hand. I wound up folding them under the base after drying while having to glue the free end to itself. Something ain't right.

[DIRT Farmer]

I haven't posted in this area for a while, nor have I thanked those of you who put up with me while I was taking care of my Dad his last few years.
A few days ago I saw the thread on PP the Mid South cruise missle for a 270, got to thinking on the diamaer so I found some thick copy paper, wraped 5 dry, no tail (don't know why but it seems much easier than wet) loaded it light and filled with wheat bran for my old 7mm Spanish Mauser with an oversize, rough bore. Well they flew stright just not real close togather. The paper came out in large pieces like from my muzzle loaders. There is potential there but I don't want to push that old action.

[nhrifle]

Nrut I don't have an answer as to how it works, it just does. I wrap the boolit dry tightly, give it a little smear of Crisco and load it into a belled case. Very light crimp. I cut my patches so there is about 1/8" protruding from the base of the boolit and that gets formed and folded under so it looks like the pic in post 1. I don't wrap them ahead of time, I wrap each one before it goes into the case. This method works for both smokeless and black powder cartridges.

[Nrut]

That explains it..
IIRC that's how Charlie Montana loads his..
I should give that a try sometime..

[Harry Eales]

During the 1960's -80's, I examined several hundred different paper patch bullets from British big game cartridges all of Black Powder vintage, not one ever had the surplus paper at the base twisted into a tail, the end was merely turned over and it was always less than a 3/16" turnover. Why was this so? Because nearly all of bullets were made with a slightly hollowed base and I believe upon firing any tristed tail would have been shoved into that hollow by the 20-40,000 pounds of pressure generated when the round was fired. The paper on the sides of the bullet will still strip off upon exiting the muzzle but the twisted tail is invariably held in the hollow of the tail. Now, you may not think that's much, but the chances of your bullet being unstable gyroscopically are greatly increased. Bad stability means poor accuracy. That may not be much at 50 yards, but at 1000 yards it could could cause you to miss the target entirely. Once BP shooting was over for the day I checked the backstop sand by sifting through it and recovered many dozens of fired bullets, some were completely clean of paper but a good number had the twisted tail section still retained in the slightly hollow base.

So, in my honest opinion, it's better to do the patching properly and forget about ever making a twisted tail.

Harry

[303Guy]

Interesting. Yet pdawg gets god accuracy with the twisted tail.

[pdawg_shooter]

If the accuracy with twisted tails doesn't equal jacketed in the same rifle and velocity range I keep working till it does.

[bcp477]

"So, in my honest opinion, it's better to do the patching properly and forget about ever making a twisted tail."


Ah, here we go again. Your experience and opinion should dictate what we ALL do. Else we'll be doing it "improperly". Thanks for the arrogance.

Nope. Too bad for you. I'll continue to do it my way....and continue to get the same (very good) accuracy as I got with folded bases.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Interesting. Yet pdawg gets good accuracy with the twisted tail."


pdawg is NOT the only one. I found NO difference, as I stated before. So, as above....I'll continue to twist tails....and produce tight groups. If that hurts anyone's feelings.....too bad.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"wmitty
bcp477

This begs the question: what paper are you using? I have tried to twist the tail using copy paper and it always tears off in my hand. I wound up folding them under the base after drying while having to glue the free end to itself. Something ain't right."


wmitty,

I use ordinary, lined loose leaf notebook paper. Not a particularly strong paper, nothing like vellum certainly. Yet, I have no problem in twisting tails. I don't know what to tell you, I just do it. I'm not the most dexterous guy - not any more so than anyone else. Perhaps the wetness of the paper ? I quickly dip each patch into water, then "squeegee" off the excess, immediately before patching each bullet - so my patches are DAMP, not really wet. I never SOAK my patches, as then they'd just turn to mush. Perhaps your patches are too wet ? I don't know - that is as far as my thinking takes me.

[wmitty]

bcp477

Thanks for responding. I think you hit on the answer to my problem; letting the patches soak too long. I'll try it as you described and see if things improve.

[303Guy]

pdawg is NOT the only one. I found NO difference, as I stated before. So, as above....I'll continue to twist tails....and produce tight groups. If that hurts anyone's feelings.....too bad.
I should have said, "For example, pdawg gets good accuracy". I have indeed noted your trials and I know you get good accuracy too. I did not take "doing it right" to mean by not twisting tails but rather to do whatever works for us. In fact, I took Harry Eales posting as a confirmation of your findings.

I also plan on trying dipped patches rather than soaked.

I did find in my early days that some papers adheres to itself well wen wetted while others don't.

Here's a fired example of inter-wrap adhesion
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-497F.jpg

It would have been useful if I had kept a record of what that paper was!

Anyway, on the folded/rolled/twisted patch, here is one reason to go to tail-less.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/325gr748206grBSAM006.jpg

See the patch impression on the base and worse, the fold impressions right on the trailing edge.

Then I tried tail-less with polyester filler and the same soft-ish alloy and a small rebate to protect the base edge from feathering.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/22gr2205214IMP006-1.jpg

Now that boolit was fired into fine rubber grinds in an attempt to stop a faster boolit without disintegrating it and to sort of simulate fresh impact. Penetration, mushrooming and retained weight indicate it as being not too bad an indication. More expansion would be realistic I'd say, and less penetration. Anyway, the base came out intact (that big dent on the edge is from the mushroom curling back into the base. I pealed it out to see what it looked like underneath.

Then we have base peening by the powder.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/30grFILLER_35grNOFILLER_2209_208gr-1-1.jpg

[nhrifle]

If there is someone here who hasn't read the sticky somewhere in this forum, it is called Paper 101, or something like that. It was written by someone with extensive experience in the paper industry and he had some good insights into what we were looking for in terms of patching paper. One of the things that stuck with me was the addition of some baking soda to the water that patches are dipped in, that it changes the chemistry in a positive way. Since most people appear to wet patch (I am probably one of the very few on the darker side with dry patching), it might be worthwhile to try that.

[303Guy]

It's under Black Powder Paper Patching - Paper 101. Time to read it again!

[nhrifle]

Yep, there it is. Very interesting read with lots of good advice.

[barrabruce]

I twist a tail on patches and get good accuracy.

I tend to get a small nub in the middle of the base usually 'cos I cut'em a bit short...but if they come out longer it don't bother me much.

I have less issues with loading and having the paper bunch up like a used franger or the base flap spreading out..from pulled bullets.

I'll stick to twisting thanks!!!
1 moa to at least 200yrds aint to shoddy for me. Give or take a couple of rouge ones.

[303Guy]

Thanks barra. What alloy and heat treatment are you using (I'm sure you must have mentioned it somewhere but I've forgotten)? I'm thinking once you get to those levels of accuracy you are no longer dealing with boolit issues, rather, it's now rifle issues. I do suspect that with 'perfect' cast or patched boolits, the accuracy potential of a rifle with a good muzzle and a bore that tightens to the end, the accuracy should be right up there with or above jwords. Mind you, some rifles have mind blowing accuracy with j's already which makes me think they might not be ideal candidates for paper patched due to the throat being too ideal for j's. I don't know - I don't have such a rifle (unless my 25-303 is one of those - it did produce sub MOA at 185m once. Mmmm ..... :roll: Gotta get her back on the road. It shoots paper patch just fine as far as I can tell if I use 120 grainers).

My No4 barreled MLE used to produce 1 1/4 MOA groups with j-words (ten shot groups). I tried it once in my first attempts at paper patching but it failed (I failed). I did try again more recently and managed to hit the target. I think the alloy was too soft to prevent base edge damage on launch. I did try a harder alloy (copper enriched, lino hardened) and those came out sharp and square. So I've got some fun ahead of me with that rifle (as well as some others).:-D

I've got too much to do initially to embark on trials of different tail styles (and I don't need to - y'all have already covered those questions). I do think I need try a different boolit style i.e. a different mold, to ensure paper grip on the core, although knurling with a file seems to work OK. I'm also thinking I should master the wet patching trick and also I should find some green bar paper!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-376F.jpg

Wet wrapping is much easier to wrap on tight than dry wrapping as the drying shrinkage does the work for you. Dry wrapping takes some finger power!

Oh, a big disadvantage of my favorite tail-less patch is that there is nowhere to put the little dab of retaining glue under the trailing corner of the patch - it needs to be on the overhanging bit which isn't there. Dry wrapping allows direct seating after wrapping but I haven't used that method yet - mainly because I haven't done any 'production' wrapping and loading.

[bigted]

seems like we can get stirred up with no matter what the descussion is...LOL ...its what ocasionally happens when folks of forsight and passion talk about the thing that most trips our trigger...

i also wrap wet...[dripping]...and twist the tails. my paper is 9lbs onionskin paper with 25% rag content from buff arms. i have a square plastic container that i put a sponge in and pour the same water untill i can drop the patch on the sponge and hold under water for a second to completely saturate the patch with the water...then without fanfair i throw it on my rolling bench...[formika]...and after putting the boolit on in the rite spot i roll it tightly on the boolit and pick up the boolit so patched and gently twist the tail so it dry's tightly adheared to the boolit and base. after a thorough dry, i clip the tail close to the flat base. the cup base boolits i roll generally get the twisted tail shoved into the hollow base for drying.

maybe the trick is how and what my column is like.... i ALWAYS use a wad between the powder and the boolit...sometimes its a lubed felt of 1/8th inch thickness and sometimes its a vegi wad from walters of .060 thickness ...but i always use a wad of some kind...this is becouse i ALWAYS load a full 100 ...or plus with blackpowder ...percent loading so the charge does not move a bit.

now it is true that i dont shoot at 1000 yards but for my hunting kinda shooting of around 200 yds this works very well for me so far. im always up for learnin tho and i read all these posts with interest...thanks and keep em comin

[bigted]

so ill make an effort to upload some photo's of my procedure...

first i use a special order lee sizer to size my boolits to .372
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching004_zps8121a8f4.jpg

then i push thru to size the boolit to my desired size.
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching001_zpsf91ecd4b.jpg

following the sizing i then prepare my small square container with the water that i re-use over and over
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching014_zps445dc9f4.jpg

putting the patch onto the soaked sponge i hold it under the water on the sponge till it is soaked thru

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching012_zpse93befa3.jpg

after the soaked patch is ready...[ a second or three]...i put it on the table for rolling and procede to roll the boolit tightly with the dripping wet patch
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching009_zps929ddfdd.jpg

then i twist gently on the overlap at the base of the boolit to get my tail.
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching008_zps896af2dd.jpg

then i put it nose down into a loading block to dry completely.
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/wetpatching006_zpse2b93583.jpg

so there is my sordid storie...i then clip the tail with a small side cutter designed for wiring jobs. depending on my diameter needs is the paper i use for the job. these pictures are of my 38-55 boolits that weigh 270 grains and come out at .380 diameter with the 9 pound onion paper from baco that is .002 inch thick...i also have .003 inch tracing paper that is 100% rag content...then i have .004 inch thick linned paper from a regular tablet paper...these different thickness paper gives different size boolits for a final size after patching.

hope these come thru

[barrabruce]

303 my alloy is somewhere between sort of. 50/50 clip on and wheel weights with a printer spacer or two thrown in to make it flow better.

Less than lyman #2 I think.

Sometimes softer or what/how ever ends up in there.

SHMBO has just caught me...supposed to cleaning up . catchs you's later

[geargnasher]

During the 1960's -80's, I examined several hundred different paper patch bullets from British big game cartridges all of Black Powder vintage, not one ever had the surplus paper at the base twisted into a tail, the end was merely turned over and it was always less than a 3/16" turnover. Why was this so? Because nearly all of bullets were made with a slightly hollowed base and I believe upon firing any tristed tail would have been shoved into that hollow by the 20-40,000 pounds of pressure generated when the round was fired. The paper on the sides of the bullet will still strip off upon exiting the muzzle but the twisted tail is invariably held in the hollow of the tail. Now, you may not think that's much, but the chances of your bullet being unstable gyroscopically are greatly increased. Bad stability means poor accuracy. That may not be much at 50 yards, but at 1000 yards it could could cause you to miss the target entirely. Once BP shooting was over for the day I checked the backstop sand by sifting through it and recovered many dozens of fired bullets, some were completely clean of paper but a good number had the twisted tail section still retained in the slightly hollow base.

So, in my honest opinion, it's better to do the patching properly and forget about ever making a twisted tail.

Harry

Rubbish. Perhaps you should actually gain some experience shooting paper jacketed bullets at copper jacketed velocities with modern, smokeless powder before attempting to impose your "honest opinion" on anyone.

Gear

[Dan Cash]

For sundry reasons, I have started paper patching smokeless rounds; only caliber .30 to date. The information gleaned from this forum has been priceless and has given me quick success with 2 cartridges so far. I am "damp" patching with printer paper with great success. A dab of the patch on the toung gets it started on the bullet then a toung dab on the rest of the patch finishes it letting it stick down well and the twisted tail retain its griip. I have labored with creating some folded base patched rounds but the results were not satisfactory as I had many patch failures. My cliipped tail twisted patches produce bullets that equal jacketed bullet results in the three rifles I am shooting. If I could produce a good folded base, I might find better accuracy but at what cost in effort?

I am sizing the bullet after patching whch seems to really seat the paper on the bullet and of course, it forms a nice base wad from the remaining patch tail. I may try sizing before patching and leaving the tail unclipped. Wonder what will happen? Have to give it a test.

2 Marlin .30-30s, one Micro groove and one standard rifling and an 1895 Win. in .30-40 are producing factory velocities with all the accuracy I believe they are capable of. The .30-40 will regularly hit a full sized pig gong target at 470 yards. That is 170 yards farther than I would ever attempt a shot on game so it seems good to go as far as I can tell.

[303Guy]

I have the idea that the 30-30 and 30-40 are two of the ideal paper patch cartridges with their long necks. The 30-30 capacity seems about perfect to me in so far as the powders one can choose from to completely fill the powder space and give moderate launch pressure and enough velocity to shred the patch at the muzzle. Would you folks agree with that?

If only the 303 Brit had a long neck like the 30-40.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/cartridgecomparison.jpg

You know, the 30-40 has a larger powder capacity than the 308 and 303 - the 308 and 303 being identical in volume to the neck base.

One hears of the 30-06 shooting cast very well, remind me of paper patch in the 30-06 someone please. It's got a longish neck which is good (I think).

[303Guy]

For a long time now I have been thinking of building a paper patching machine. It would be no more than a modified cig roller with tapered rollers to suit my tapered boolits and a crank handle. It's to have a third belt tensioner roller plus a hold down roller. It will have a locating pin against which the boolit base gets placed and a patch guide or feeder. I'll build it to have quick change rollers so I can 'speriment. One idea is to tailor the hold sown roller to have a boolit matching profile so as to iron the patch into the grooves. Umm .... don't y'all go holding your breaths waiting for me to build it now, ya hear?[smilie=1:

[Dan Cash]

I have the idea that the 30-30 and 30-40 are two of the ideal paper patch cartridges with their long necks. The 30-30 capacity seems about perfect to me in so far as the powders one can choose from to completely fill the powder space and give moderate launch pressure and enough velocity to shred the patch at the muzzle. Would you folks agree with that?


If only the 303 Brit had a long neck like the 30-40.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/cartridgecomparison.jpg

You know, the 30-40 has a larger powder capacity than the 308 and 303 - the 308 and 303 being identical in volume to the neck base.

One hears of the 30-06 shooting cast very well, remind me of paper patch in the 30-06 someone please. It's got a longish neck which is good (I think).

I most certainly do agree regarding powder capacity. That applies to both .30-30 and .30-40. My next challenge is the .300 Savage and the 7.5 Swiss, both of which have similar capacities and performance levels to the .303 and .30-40 but have short necks. Hope I can make them work as jacketed projectiles are rediculously expensive and that is about to get worse.

[pdawg_shooter]

Dont worry about the bullet extending below the neck with paper. I patch the 311284 for a 300RUM and a good 1/3 of the patch is below the neck. Shoots fine.

[Green Lizzard]

i do it just like dan same as an old cowboy makin a smoke

[Harter66]

Well,better late.....

I dry wrap,a lot like 303s w/Darrs lube for sizing lube,water proofing.

Ive had good luck and exceptable ,consideration to type and cartridge, accuracy. I've to data patches for 30-06' ,762-39 , 7x57 and soon will add 7x6.8 SPCII aka 7mm RWH and 8x57. I'm contemplating paper patch/carts for a 44 Remington and a couple of other ML,not real seriously,but I've explored it.

My 06' gets sized 301,2 wraps of green bar at .0025 sized 310 poked into a half necked case opened to 309and belled . Then the flair just over flattened on top of 48+- gr 4350. This is still being tuned at the moment.

The x39 gets the same 200gr spire point 75/25 wet towel dropped WW/1-20 as cast at 312 same wrapping as above and sized 3165 . Best accuracy was found single fed over 25.5 IMR4350 it must be reduced to 22.3 to feed the s k s from the fixed magazine. The throat of this 1 is over 318 but the rest of the bore is 316x305.

The 7x57 gets the same treatment using an as cast 27 130 FN . I'd have to check my books for the charge but it shot gets 4350 and starting charges in a 1908 Ovieda.

[jhalcott]

Harry, I do not think MOST of us are interested in 1000 yard shooting, just deer hunting at LESS than 400 yards. SO maybe the twisting of the tail is meaningless at those ranges/purposes. I've had long discussions about gas checks versus no gas checks for handgun rounds when hunting. I still have not been convinced that a gas checked bullet will kill a deer deader than a non checked one. I continue to use the checks in MY guns though! After several dozen deer killed using guns from 7mm to 45-70 and gas checked cast bullets I am satisfied of their worth. As far as paper patching, I can NOT do this any more due to arthritis and carpal tunnel. I tried the cut and tuck and the twisted tail types with equally good results, meaning dead deer after the shot!

[303Guy]

The x39 gets the same 200gr spire point 75/25 wet towel dropped WW/1-20 as cast at 312 same wrapping as above and sized 3165 . Best accuracy was found single fed over 25.5 IMR4350I'm rather intrigued by the success of 4350 in such a small case. Do you know the velocity? How does IMR 4350 compare with H4350 (what I use in the form of AR2209).


As far as paper patching, I can NOT do this any more due to arthritis and carpal tunnel.I'm real sorry to here that.

Back to twisted tails, does anyone twist without flattening the nub? As in just leaving it like it is?

[Harter66]

I don't have chrony speeds. What I do have is 22" of bbl and a working knowledge of the loads. The loads at 24.o were pushed in to the low 17s ,that's when the chrony incident occurred,at 25.5 the maximum case volume 1800 is very possible and likely. 22.3 is also a maximum capacity w/seating to feedable lengths. The pressures are also a guess w/the understanding, www knowledge, that my 4350 reaches complete burn at 30kpsi. All in my rifle only of course the loads would appear to be under 40kpsi.

It is my understanding that H4350 just slower than IMR 4350 but that data isn't interchangeable. As I read the tales Hodgden bought several rail cars of the stuff after WWII. It had lost a little zip by the time they started blending their own so its the next slower powder. Although it may be 4831 I'm thinking of.