Struggling with the 9mm.

[Catshooter]

So I'm giving the 9mm in a Glock a try. Been twenty years since I loaded any lead in a Glock, don't recall a thing I did before.

My boolit is a Lyman 356634, drops at .358 and 140 grains sized & lubed with LARs 2500. Air cooled wheel weights that test out at 9 to 11 BHN. I've pulled a boolit after the final loading step. Size is unchanged, once I took the Lee Factory Crimp die out. See the pic.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/001_zpsb6d1fcf7.jpg



The Glock factory barrel and my Lonewolf after market barrel are both .356 and a tiny bit, measured with a Starrett mic.

I have seated the boolit as deep as you see or it will hit the end of the throat/rifling. At first I sized them at .3572, the actual size my ".357" sizing die gives me. Loaded over five grains of HS-6 gave me some pretty good leading out of both barrels. Leading started just slightly passed the end of the chamber, all the way around the barrel and full length.

So without changing anything else, I found a sizer die that would give me .358, used that. Didn't change the leading at all. The load was up at the top, there was a pretty good impression of the breech face's rectangular firing pin hole in the primers. They are Winchester Small Pistol by the way.

So yesterday I dropped the powder to 4.5 grains. Greatly reduced the leading and the primers were rounded with the barest hint of the breech face in 'em. But they still lead.

Mmm.

Tried three grains of Universal Clays, everything else the same of course. No change, leads both barrels.

What the heck am I doing wrong?


Cat

[R.M.]

What's your alloy?

[6bg6ga]

So I'm giving the 9mm in a Glock a try. Been twenty years since I loaded any lead in a Glock, don't recall a thing I did before.

My boolit is a Lyman 356634, drops at .358 and 140 grains sized & lubed with LARs 2500. See the pic.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/001_zpsb6d1fcf7.jpg



The Glock factory barrel and my Lonewolf after market barrel are both .356 and a tiny bit, measured with a Starrett mic.

I have seated the boolit as deep as you see or it will hit the end of the throat/rifling. At first I sized them at .3572, the actual size my ".357" sizing die gives me. Loaded over five grains of HS-6 gave me some pretty good leading out of both barrels. Leading started just slightly passed the end of the chamber, all the way around the barrel and full length.

So without changing anything else, I found a sizer die that would give me .358, used that. Didn't change the leading at all. The load was up at the top, there was a pretty good impression of the breech face's rectangular firing pin hole in the primers. They are Winchester Small Pistol by the way.

So yesterday I dropped the powder to 4.5 grains. Greatly reduced the leading and the primers were rounded with the barest hint of the breech face in 'em. But they still lead.

Mmm.

Tried three grains of Universal Clays, everything else the same of course. No change, leads both barrels.

What the heck am I doing wrong?


Cat

Did you slug the barrel? Sound to me like you have have too large a bullet.

[GBertolet]

You didn't say what alloy you are using. It might be too soft or hard. Possibly the expander ball on your die is too small, and the bullet is being sized smaller, as it is being seated in the case. Another possibility is, the taper crimper is adjusted too far down, reducing bullet diameter also, as the 9mm is a tapered case. I have had this happen to me.

[Catshooter]

Pretty smart of me to leave out the alloy. Fixed now.


Cat

[Cherokee]

Cat - I found in my 4 9mm guns that an alloy of 3% tin, 3% antimony, air cooled, gave me better accuracy and only a trace of leading running 122 gr TC CB's at 1200+ fps. I go 6-800 rounds between cleaning, there is no buildup. The ACWW alloy did lead a little in my guns. All of mine like .356 so that is what I use with Lars CR lube. BTW, HS6 works great for me, as does Power Pistol.

[Catshooter]

You're just making me cry Cherokee. I beleive you. Sounds like the 9 works for lots of people. I know my earlier work wasn't leading. But it sure is now. I'm talking five rounds and a third to a half of the bore is coated.

What a puzzler.


Cat

[HighHook]

I like 3.5-4grs bulleye for that boolit in the 9mm. hs-6 is for major power.

[Ed_Shot]

You mean Lyman 356637 (nominal 147 gr). The Lyman 4th Ed shows 5.0 gr of HS-6 as a max load with 4.4 as the starter.

I've had very good luck with 9MM in LW barrels for both Glock 17 and 22 along with my CZ 75B. I think your alloy as you describe is fine. I have no experience with #356637. I use Lyman 358242 and 356402 and Lee 356-120-TC and 356-125-2R all sized to .358 in a Lyman 450 with LAR's White Label 2500+. I use an intact LEE FDC on every round and I get absolutely no leading in the LW barrels and on a good day they'll all shoot to one ragged hole. The FDC is set to 1/2 turn crimp. My favorite powder is Blue Dot and I don't get anywhere near the max load. Yes, I use the FDC with 40 S&W and .45 ACP with equally good results.

I believe you are sizing but I have to say that boolit on the table in the picture does not look like it has been touched by a sizing die. I agree with 6bg6ga your boolit may be too big.

[Catshooter]

Yea, the boolit in the pic hasn't been sized. With the .358 sizind die it just barely touches the boolit.

My Lee FCD will size the boolit down to .355. Both the Glock and my Lone Wolfe bores are .356, with the LW maybe going to .3562.


Cat

[45 2.1]

Keep in mind the pressure levels that this cartridge runs at. Use an alloy that will withstand that pressure level or one that is tough and malleable.... which doesn't necessarily mean having a great deal of alloy hardening components. Would you run air cooled wheel weights out of a rifle with a plain base boolit at those pressures and expect something different? Your first sizing diameter was fine, your alloy choice and hardness was not.

[fecmech]

Cat if your pulled bullets are still .357-.358 then I think I'd try a lube change. I never had any trouble with 9's(Firestar,2 BHP's and a Kahr) as long as I didn't try to push velocities with BE or other fast powders. I ran in the 1300 fps range with the BHP's using Longshot and Blue dot powder with very light streak leading that looked the same after 100 shots as it did after 1 shot. I also used the dreaded "crayon" hard lubes from Magma and Rooster(still do). Good luck to ya!

[runfiverun]

see post number 11.
try just water dropping the alloy.

you are running staright into rifling with no type of lead in.
real common now days.
it's displacing the soft alloy and you are dragging it down the bbl.
if the harder alloy don't fix it throating the bbl will.

[Lee W]

The one thing I do different than you is water drop. I use Autocomp which is next to HS6 on the burn rate chart and Rooster Zambini lube. I have a glock 34 with the factory barrel and I have minimal leading. (In fact, it has not seen copper bullets since the factory...about 4K boolits and no trouble.)

[n.h.schmidt]

Catshooter
I have no problem with the advice given so far. It's all good. There is now another option called Plain Base Gas Checks. Some way down in the Gas Checks forum are experimenting with plain base gas checks for pistol calibers. You use the same boolets you now use but,you size on a very thin gas check. This can be done in the sizeing step or even retrofitted on already made boolets. Aluminum from pop and beer cans is the metal used. I too have had leading problems with 9mm and also 38 super. I am now making the PB gas checks for my 9mm. I haven't yet shot any of them as it's too nasty out to do much outside. I do have a bunch made. I can send you some to try out ,if you want to give them a try.
n.h.schmidt

[fcvan]

That boolit at 140 grains is exactly what I would like to have. For now, I'm using the Lee 356-120 TC over 5 grains of Unique. Mine cast at 125 grains and measure .358 which is the sizing die I use. I tried sizing to .357 and they keyholed in my LW conversion barrel and in my buddies stock Glock. They also did poorly in my Camp Carbine. Anybody want a slightly used (500 rounds) .357 Lyman sizer? I went back to .358 and use BAC for lube. These also shot well with some home made loob but were a bit smokey. Leading wasn't really a problem, even with the .357 boolits which seemed odd but they were done with my loob which was slicker than snot. Of late, I'm using plain based gas checks because I can make them and it is something new to play with. The Glock with a LW conversion barrel was a tack driver without the checks but I did notice the groups tightened up in some of my other 9mm pistols. I haven't shot the checked boolits through the carbine yet but I'm sure it will perform nicely. I would love to see how the carbine performed with the Lyman boolit as pictured above. I guess I need to order yet another mold for the collection.

[40Super]

For all my 9mm I run approx harder alloys and often WD if the alloy doesn't air harden roughly 15-17bhn after 2 weeks. It was the biggest thing that ended any leading other than getting molds that dropped big enough to begin with. I think the sharp kick that the boolit gets disrupts to soft alloys and causes them to smear more(skid on the first part of rifling also), so a harder alloy helps stop that. I also prefer heavier , 140gr - 147gr for best accuracy.
My powders of choice are AA#5, WSF, or Sr7625 under lead.

[Balta]

Loading a lead bullets in 9 mm Glock ,factory barrel for a while....think i fired about 4000 so far...Only alloy of 15 BHN min. works for me with N320..

[jdgabbard]

I'm having similar problems with a Sigma in 9mm right now. I've tried .356, .357, and .358 as size goes. Barrel slugs at .356ish. This is using both the 356402 and the 358242 120gr variant. Powers have been both unique, and BE. Leading starts in the first inch or so of the barrel, and eventually moves its way down to the end after about 200rds. Accuracy gets better as leading increases, and groups tighten. My next change is going to be in lube. These were lubbed with an old NRA hybrid lube. Going with carnuba red on the next set of trials.

[Shiloh]

.357 works, .358 works a lot better.
The 9mm was the hardest for me to get running, but now it does and runs well.

Shiloh

[Catshooter]

Well, I think a harder alloy is next. Thanks gents.


Cat

[MT Gianni]

In general, lube issues show up in the muzzle end of the bbl, fit and alloy issues in the front. I think wd is a good idea, though mine do well with acww.

[captaint]

I had to go to straight WW's (air cooled) and size .358 for my 9mm to work, without the lead in the barrel. A nice member here had sent me some PB gas checks and they worked great, too, even out to 50 yards. My accuracy went way south when the leading got notably bad. I could tell there was lead by the groups. After about 20 rounds, it was a waste of time & ammo. Finally got a mold that dropped them at .359 and all was well. I wonder if the OP has some old copper in that barrel. Seems he has done most of the work, except dropping the vel's and trying harder lead. Mike

[Gunor]

57705

What am I doing wrong? I can see each step in the loaded case.

Hopefully you can see the attached photo.

I can see the bullet (bulge), then it steps down ( case), and then it goes back up to the cartridge base.

9mm 125 lead bullet @ .356 (+) - measured with micrometer.

Resizing with RCBS carbide die - typical 550 setup with a Redding taper crimp die.

Geoff

[Edubya]

There is some excellent ideas here and I have tried most of them. I have a standard 9mm Springfield 4" and a custom 5 1/4" Springfield. The 5 1/4 has a Bar-Sto barrel and can take any boolit that I have. The standard will lead up after one magazine full, no matter what BHN. I have just about given up on the 4" with cast boolits. I'm thinking about getting a Bar-Sto for it.
Cat, you have an excellent post going here and I hope that you keep us informed of your trials and findings.

EW

[Shiloh]

Sizing dies take the brass to SAAMI specs or a bit less. Jacketed bullets show a bulge, but fit a cartridge gage and the chamber.
My over size .358 boolits do as well. I need a gentle push to seat the .358 boolits, especially the LEE 125 RF boolits.
Less so with the LEE 125 gr. 9mm RN Boolit.

Shiloh

[Catshooter]

Well gentlemen, I heeded the "too soft" advice and cast up a few out of the same mould but with straight linotype.

Over four and a half grains of HS-6 I got zero leading out of the Lone Wolfe and a tiny amount in the Glock barrel. Everything else the same. The primers showed quite a bit less pressure with the lino than WW too. Huh.

Well, I think instead of using my limited supply of linotype, I'll try water dropping the WW next, see if those would be hard enough.

Thanks for the help.


Cat

[NuJudge]

P
57705

What am I doing wrong? I can see each step in the loaded case.

Hopefully you can see the attached photo.

I can see the bullet (bulge), then it steps down ( case), and then it goes back up to the cartridge base.

9mm 125 lead bullet @ .356 (+) - measured with micrometer.

Resizing with RCBS carbide die - typical 550 setup with a Redding taper crimp die.

Geoff

it is good that you used a micrometer to measure your bullet diameter. Cheap calipers are frequently off by .002".

I have 4 Beretta barrels and two Walther barrels I have measured, and all were just a little under .358". I shoot hard bullets in them, sized larger than .358". None of them have trouble clambering a cartridge loaded with a .359" bullet.

I have a Browning High Power "race gun" my Dad had built in the late 1960's. It's groove diameter is big also, but it will not chamber a cartridge loaded with a bullet bigger than .356". With such a chamber you either rethroat, or feed it only jacketed.

[PhantomF4E]

I did see one reply here about accuracy improving after a little leading occurs. A little leading is not always a bad thing. It is a bad thing if it builds up and restricts the bore. Some leading can actually improve the dynamics of the barrel . Not all of them are cut perfectly and the lead fills in those imperfections . If you get leading but it stays put and always looks the same keep plugging away . Keep your eye on it but if your accuracy stays consistent , you are probably gtg.

[ironhead7544]

I would try a minimum charge of a fast burning powder. Just enough to work the action 100%. AA#2 maybe.

[Catshooter]

Sucess!!!

So I water-dropped 40 rounds out of my mould last night and loaded 'em up.
These were over 4.5 grains of HS-6 which shows about 875 fps. The boolits weigh 140 grains.

Shot them today. Zero leading in the Lone Wolf barrel and a tiny trace in the Glock. Woo hoo! :)

I'd much rather heat treat the WW than use up my limited amount of linotype.

Thanks for the help gentlemen. I was so used to never needing harder lead in pistols and some of my rifles that that problem didn't even occur to me. Hell I've run lots of untreated wheel weight boolits at 1400 plus from my 45 Colt rifles and never a spot of lead. Go figure. Shows me once again it's the results, and only the results that matter.


Cat

[fecmech]

Hell I've run lots of untreated wheel weight boolits at 1400 plus from my 45 Colt rifles and never a spot of lead. Go figure. Shows me once again it's the results, and only the results that matter.
Might have something to do with the fact the .45 colt is not a 1 in 9 twist!

[Agent1187]

That is fantastic to hear!
I'd indirectly given up on trying to get cast to work for my 9 for a while, but this might encourage me to try again.

[Cherokee]

Way to go Cat - glad it worked out for you.

[Jal5]

Good to hear. Persistence pays off.

[Wilson]

I'm glad you solved the problem. I had the same trouble. Water quenching and American Select have been for me. I use the Lyman 147 grain, but mostly use the LEE 6 125 grain in a six cavity mold.