Whose responsibility?

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

Recently I ordered a box of lead ingots from someone here. When it arrived today both my Post Office and the Post Office it was mailed from had stamped it "received without contents." Prior to making the deal I had cautioned the seller "You probably know this, but you'll have to really reinforce the box to get it through intact. Otherwise the post office will deliver an empty box."

My question is, in your opinion is the seller responsible to issue a refund or deliver the goods?

I did write to him and ask how he plans to make it right, but have not heard back.

Thanks, Tom

[jhalcott]

Sounds like the MAILER made a mistake to me. HIS PO said it was "received without contents". WAS the package damaged when you received it? If not then I would consider mail fraud by the sender.

[Love Life]

They mailed an empty box?

[BrassMagnet]

Please post photos of box. Sender's name can be covered with a post-it note or something similar.

[Crawdaddy]

I would take this offline and PM Ken or a Mod. They are most helpful in these type situations.

[Baryngyl]

If I were to send it, it would have made it, I over use the tape and probably would have double boxed it to boot.
But if for some reason it were to somehow lose its contents I would send a replacement if I had more to send, if no more was available I would refund them, but that is just me.


Michael Grace

[Mooseman]

Unfortunately, If the package was not insured and gets damaged and the contents spill out , the post office delivers the empty box. I sent a well taped small FR box to a member and it was delivered empty.
He went to the receiving post offices and the contents were never found. There is no recourse in this case other than to report it to the Postmaster, if it wasnt insured.
Both the shipper and the customer lose , unless the shipper makes it right on their own.

[Bored1]

I'm still confused how the SENDING post office stamped it "recieved without contents".

[Freightman]

I sold 60# of lead thought it was taped good but it was never delivered, it was sent to damaged mail per letter I got and a address where I could file a claim. Well I just shipped the buyer a new box and did a better job of packing and the filling a claim was more trouble than the lead was worth.
By the way that customer was happy enough that I sell him all the lead I sell now, if the shipper wants to have a good customer he has to bite the boolit and make it right.

[white eagle]

seller is responsible in this situation

[RickinTN]

I recieved an insured empty torn package once. While trying to make a claim with the PO I was told there was no claim because my package was delivered! Good luck with the PO and insurance!
Rick

[milsurp mike]

Good luck with any claim with the USPS.I have had several insured packages lost damaged ect. and havent had much luck getting my claims paid.THE SHIPPER IS RESPONSIBLE TO REPLACE UNLESS BUYER DIDNT WANT TO PAY FOR THE INSURANCE.GOOD LUCK FELLOWS.Mike

[MJR007]

I am going though this right now. I sold a member here two years ago some solder and he is just getting around to opening it (we all pack things away). How he describes the metal I think I sent him the wrong box. I am will be testing a sample of the questionable metal and I have sent out a replacement for it. Just talk to the person respectively and the two of you should work this out. The best of luck to you.

[jixxerbill]

I would take this offline and PM Ken or a Mod. They are most helpful in these type situations.

hope it all works out !

[gee-gaw]

The bottom line is... If it's a substantial amount, The buyer should request insurance. I've been buying and selling some over the past two years or so, and have found that the only ones that get lost are the ones that aren't insured. With the exception of one incident, all insured packages that I've shipped have made it. And the one that didn't, was made right by the PO. If it was lead, I'd send some more, but some things you don't have duplicates of. Most guys on here will make it right, but at the end of the day, if you didn't ask for insurance your just out.
My .02 worth,
Wayne

[blackbike]

The receipt shows the weight

[Tatume]

I received this from the seller a few minutes ago. I'll let you know how it turns out. It looks like it's going to be okay. Thanks.


I will get a check out tomorrow and mail it to you. Have no idea what happened - I personally delivered the package to the post office and a friend that works there checked it in.
Sorry for any inconvenience.

[D Crockett]

I have sent lead ingots in the mail. but one thing I do is I make a wooden box that will fit inside a med. flat rate box. and I have even had those broken with the receiving post office stamping the box with not properly packaged. that one I do have to admit I usede a nail gun to put it togather. but I have had other boxes that I screwed togather that have made it just fine. I also use fiber tape on the boxes I also glue the box to the wooden boxes now tapeing and double boxing the box in my oppinion will not get the job done. and you will have a better chance of loosing you ingots than if you do it the way I do with wooden boxes inside now small flat rate boxes if I send lead in I build a wooden mould and poure it full of lead. till the block of lead is the same size as the inside of the small flat rate box. then I glue the box to the lead. then tape with fiber tape the ends and all around the edge of the box never lost a small flat rate box yet . D Crockett

[farmallcrew]

Shipper would be liable, unless there was not insurance on it then the PO would reimburse.

[meshugunner]

It's not good to hear that the mods are not responsive but this is a very busy time of year. I've experienced several rather flaky online transactions recently and I cut them some slack.

I don't know what the law is but when I order something I feel it's my responsibility to get the funds to the vendor and his to get the merchandise to me. In the past sellers have resent me merchandise that didn't show up and I have once or twice resent payment. If the seller expressly requires insurance before he will guarantee delivery that's a different matter. The terms were stated up front and you know the rules you are playing by.

Unless there was a lot of money involved, I would go above and beyond to make the other party happy with the transaction. In my experience, most people here seem to follow that policy.

Hard to believe that the PO can renege on insurance after losing the contents of a package. I wouldn't accept that without a fuss. I would certainly contact the head office or whatever and make enough of a nuisance of myself that they might take more care with the next person.

I hope this works out to your satisfaction.

[migtek02]

I bought 60lbs of lead from a fellow caster here and I received all of the lead he sent but it was repackaged and I also received a letter from the post office saying the package was damaged (they did not know if anything was missing). I have orders other items via USPS and the boxed arrive damaged and contents spilled in the box. I don't believe any of the have been improperly boxed for shipping but I have seen these guys drop boxes out of the back of the mail trucks and hear them yelling and throwing boxes around at the main post office terminal in big D.
As a kid my dad was a member of the Knigths of Columbus and a fellow member was our mailman he lamented before retiring the system was moving to contract some jobs out to guys who did not care much about doing the right thing. No offense to current mailmen but speaking from my own experience.

[shooter93]

I'm probably the odd man out but anytime I ship anything of what I consider a decent value I always ship it insured and I pay for it....not the buyer. Why?....because I believe it's incumbent upon the seller to do everything possible to see you got your merchandise. If anyone here bought from any supplier....Midway, Midsouth etc and the package didn't arrive you would expect a refund or the products you paid for.

[chambers]

I had a similar experience here for some lead, when I received box it was in the USPS plastic tote with all the contents out of box, the box was light in weight but by the time I went back to seller or the USPS all I would have done is create more lost time and energy. Sometimes you just have to move on or work it out with the seller.

[gon2shoot]

Just a reminder. S&S is here for the benefit of the members, all dealings are between buyer and seller. The site or the mods have no part of sales, that said, we will help wherever we can, but have no real "authority" to make things right.

[boltons75]

I had bought a receiver hitch drop bar for my equalizing hitch on time, the seller said it was shipped in a medium flat rate box. I had to pick it up from the post office, and they wanted me to pay extra because it was not in a usps flat rate box. After taking to the post office, and the seller, who guaranteed me that it was shipped in s flat rate box, I paid the extra just to get my product. I opened it in front of them, and inside the brown box was what was left of the flat rate box with my drop bar. Someone repackaged it somewhere along the way after it got damaged, I did get money back when they realized it was the usps's error.

[fryboy]

the receipt should ( as previously stated ) show the weight , most of us know that lead is heavy and has to be well packed but yeah i've received some lite weight packages that were mangled ( gee they werent that way when mailed but i digress )
one of the beauties of this forum is the good guy thread , while most of us honor our deals ( ie;not all the good guys get mentioned in the good guy thread ) quite often a mention of being packed well lets a person know how good the people they are mentioning packs ( sadly i also have to admit that i dont always mention that it was packed great ..oops , but sometimes i do ) another thing that applies is "caveat emptor" , again things mostly go right but every good deal we do also moves the chance of that one bad one closer ( it's a percentage thing ) worse there's always bad days , i've sent a few very well packed items out to have them arrive mangled with some stuff missing . the very best tip i can give is that if it's heavy try real hard to make sure that there isnt any room for movement , something heavy and in motion tends to stop abruptly , in the case of cheap cardboard ..well it can go right thru the box

[waksupi]

As was said, staff has absolutely nothing to do with selling or trading here. You are on your own, until proof should show some one reneged. At that time, our only real option is to remove the person from the board. Up until that time, we have no interest or need for action.

[4719dave]

po HATES HEAVY BOXES OF LEAD ......caught girl at the counter push my 50 lb boxes off the self onto the floor she didnt know i was still in the po WOW DID SHE GET A SURPRISE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!double boxes hot glues together with sm flat rt boxes full of ingots then no space in the boxes with alot of hd packing take all sides of the boxes and INSURED wow made it .....

[starmac]

Before christmas I mailed an aluminum lee press out in a flat rate box. What does these things weigh 1 1/2 pound maybe. It got there in one piece, but the box was mangled and it was hanging out. One never knows what all a box will go through before it is delivered, but lead has to be reinforced pretty well to have a chance of making it.

[dnotarianni]

the receipt should ( as previously stated ) show the weight ,

If shipped flat rate there will be no weight on the package especially if it had a shipping label printer and per paid at home.
I never ship without insurance with the PO. The 1.75 or 2 change insures that the package will get delivered and not lost due to some public servant that don't like picking up 50#-70# flat rate boxes.

As far as responsibilty goes if insurance was offered and declined then it is on the buyer, if no mention was made of insurance then it is on the seller.
dave

[xfoxofshogo]

i got some lead one time they stuck it in a placit been with handles it came apart nothing missing but the box it was in was a mess and it was tape good

[keyhole]

I have bought lead through several transactions on this site. All of the boxes look like they went through a pretty rough trip. Bought some metal from sponsor Rotometal. It was double cardboard boxed but still one of the boxes was open when it arrived. All of the lead made it though, fortunately. On another purchase the seller made a nice wooden crate, which was placed inside the Flat Rate box. Even that came apart, I guess because the wood was stapled instead of screwed. Again, all the lead was there somehow. If I ever ship any lead I would used a wooden crate screwed together inside the Flat Rate box.
The mail person won't even attempt to deliver to my house. I have to go to Post Office and boy do most of them complain there about the weight.

[Revolver]

Sounds like you got it worked out.

I sold some lead ONCE. It arrived as an empty box, I refunded the money, learned my lesson. Postal workers across the US must be tripping over lead bars all day every day in these sorting facilities.

[Springfield]

I have either mailed or bought 40 boxes of lead and they have all made it, although some just barely. Insurance is a waste of time for things like this, you have to fight for your money. I shipped a box of bullets last month and it was, as far as we can tell, delivered to the wrong house. I had Delivery Confirmation on it but all that tells you is SOMEONE got it. I will ship them a new box. They paid, they didn't get it, I don't insure so it is on me. We are still researching the lost box. They claimed it was signed for at 8:10 in the morning, yet the buyers mailman says he doesn't even leave the office until 10:00. Not even sure why anyone would sign, it was only Delivery Confirmation, not Signature Confirmation. So someone is lying to us, somewhere.

[RP]

Well looks like all the bases are covered in this thread. That being said I must put my two cents in. I have sold a lot of lead on the site boxed many ways. Some were wrapped in a siding wrap which is a very tough material. Others ingots were boxed in wood and sprayed in some expanding foam. But by the time I cut plywood glue it up wrap it in house wrap use foam and tape the box covering it on all sides pay insurance shipping and tracking. I have had boxes lost to never be found others showed up in a new box and people upset for not getting the lead. All want to know what I am going to do. Think about it what else do you want me to do ? Well I have sent out more lead for free at a lost to myself and just asked if they are willing to pay shipping. So if I lose one box of lead I have to sell several more to make up for it. I have 5 boxes of lead sitting in the shop boxed ready to mail and I just do not feel up to dealing with it. The best thing I can say is insurance is good they most likely wont pay but it sure helps make sure they take better care of it.

[EDG]

>>>As far as responsibilty goes if insurance was offered and declined then it is on the buyer, if no mention was made of insurance then it is on the seller. <<<
No --- this policy is not reasonable since it would allow a seller to avoid liability if the item is not packaged well.
If the buyer does not buy insurance the seller should and include it in the cost of shipping.

I once got a box that was supposed to have 500 bullets for a 38-55 in it. The lazy seller just taped up the original retail box and mailed it to me. I got a box with the corners blown out and about 50 bullets.
This was in no way my fault. The buyer refunded the entire purchase price.

[wickerbill]

The mail person won't even attempt to deliver to my house. I have to go to Post Office and boy do most of them complain there about the weight.

Ya, the same thing has happened to me the last two times I ordered lead. It came in and I got a notice in my mail box that my package was not deliverable and I needed to come to the post office and pick it up. When I went to the PO the guy behind the counter took my sli[p and went in the back, he came out cussing. He cominsed to giving me a lecture about this being an abuse of the system and I should be ashamed of my self. When he said that, I lafted at him and just told him to weigh it. He went back to cussing. He weight it and it was 67 pounds. I simplie told him, see it's under the 70 pound limit. I don't make the rules, your bosses in Washington do. Then I asked to see the post master. When he came out I reported him for the two cussing incedents and everyone in the PO started clapping.(He has sense found a new job.)
Bill

[wellfedirishman]

Going through this right now on another forum where a seller claimed he shipped a rifle, but without tracking/insurance, even though I requested both and paid extra for both. He 'forgot' to add them.

Bottom line is use your camera-phone (most phones have cameras now) to take a picture of the package you mail with the contents, and the address/stamps/tracking number on it at the post office. That way you can prove you mailed it and it was correctly addressed, etc. If the post office loses it, you at least have done your share and can prove it. And always use a tracking # if the item is worth more than $20. If the buyer wants insurance, they should request and pay for it.

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Legally, once the seller has delivered it to the shipping agency, his responsibility has been met. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Just what it is...

[Longone]

Legally, once the seller has delivered it to the shipping agency, his responsibility has been met. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Just what it is...

Agreed as long as the terms between the buyer and seller are met, ie. insurance, tracking, shipping type, etc. Some sellers will "forget" tracking #'s or ins. which was requested and agreed upon hoping all goes well in shipping. I, like several others have had lead show up in boxes that were in my opinion properly taped and the box looked like it saw field goal practice. The inside plastic bags were hanging out but amazingly not torn open and all the contents made it.
Stuff happens but I never seem to get a lighter weight box delivered that one of these heavy boxes fell on.

Longone

[RobsTV]

Legally, if the seller receives the money and the buyer does not receive the product, the responsibility falls on the seller. One party can not win out while other loses out. It is sellers responsibility.

As a seller, I have lost out on the thinking that buyer rejected insurance, so it fell to him. Buyer that never received item was automatically refunded and I was hit with a charge-back. Item was tracked as received by post office, and then nothing. Lost. I lost item and money. Buyer lost nothing. Seller beware if insurance is skipped. Tracking, delivery confirmation and buyer rejecting insurance is not enough.

Even if buyer pays extra for seller to insure item, there is nothing the buyer can do, as all insurance claims must go through the seller. Sellers, protect yourself.

[cajun shooter]

If you purchase anything that cost more money than you are willing to lose, then you should request that the seller include tracking and insurance on the package.
I just sold three magazines to another member and I took it on myself to pay the extra $3.50 for delivery confirmation and insurance. If it is lost or not delivered then I have proof that I covered my bases and may file a claim with the PO.
The seller on the rifle that was not delivered is liable and subject to felony charges of mail fraud if he has no paper work.
The PO has a very good service for this type of crime. I worked with them while I was a cop and they do a good job.
As far as sending lead through the mail, 60 minutes did a under cover investigation on postal employees dropping and kicking very heavy packages so they would bust open. The answer they gave for the treatment was that if they destroyed enough of these type of packages the customers would stop sending them.
I have told more than one seller that if he did not double box or make a box of wood then I did not wish to buy from him. The boxes are free from the PO and shipping tape is cheap insurance if you want the package to survive.
My carrier advised me to purchase Delivery Confirmation on all of my packages as each and every postal worker who handles that package has to scan it. It has stopped a lot of missing packages for me and at .75 it is cheap enough for me to feel better.

[smokemjoe]

Here is a good one, in the 80s I shipped back to Montana rifle barrel company a barrel, I put it in a PVC pipe, glued on caps, it wouldnt move inside at all, for some reason I put my name on the barrel, It went from S. Wis. to Chicago, less then 180 miles, We had to pick up our mail at the PO, One day I seen a barrel on the shelve, I asked about it and was mine, no tube,There was no way it came out by itself. Joe

[LAH]

A few things I've found & this is just me. I mail many packages which are over 60 pounds & these have be sent to all 50 states. I insure all my packages unless the customer asks me not to. BTW the customer pays the tab for shipping & insurance. If they refuse to pay the insurance I make it plainly known once I have the postage receipt in my hand I'll not be held accountable for the package. And please this is a gentleman's agreement, not sure what is legal.

The receipt? I normally don't use click & ship. I take the package to the PO so it is placed on their scale. I like using a small PO where they know me so if there is trouble & there has been, the Postmaster can testify that all packages I ship are within the weight limits. When I use the large PO here in town my receipt shows the town, zip code & zone to which the package is going. The receipt shows it's a flat rate box & the size of the box. The receipt shows the weight of the box. The receipt shows the amount of the insurance & what I paid for that insurance. The receipt shows the label number.

Over the last 12 years we've been in business I've had 'bout 6 claims. I've never had a claim the PO has failed to pay by simply filling out the paper work which I do on line. Two of those claims took a follow up by me but were paid.

I've had two shipments which the Postmaster on the customers end refused to release to the customer. Both times I called the regional office which oversees that Postmaster & he was very happy to release the package. FWIW this is an area where most Congressional Local Offices will be happy to help you with.

Anyway just my findings.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

personally, I completely lap the box with strapping tape, and over insure it.

Some of the people in USPS shipping love a challenge like that, but they have not found a way yet.

[7of7]

Of all the lead that I have shipped, in the large flat rate boxes, all have made it to their locations. Of course, the box was not so much of a box, more of a cardboard bag... I tape the entire box..with a couple layers... One time, I used some old boxes that were once flat rate... they tried to charge the buyer to deliver them, and then, they tried to charge me... I explained to the postmaster, that it was an error, and that it should have been caught when the packages were picked up by the postman.. they should have been returned for insufficient postage. I got my lead back... repackaged it to a 65 lb box, and shipped it again..

[TCFAN]

Whenever we ship customers quilts back to them I always use signature confirmation.My postmaster says that is the safest way to ship because everyone that handles the box has to sign off on it. If it gets lost or damaged it can be traced back to the last person that handled it. Don't know if that is right or not but that is what he tells me.........Terry

[Danner]

I had simular situation with the post office the package was insured but since it was delivered (empty) the post office was satisfied they had done all they could do

[Danner]

It may be alittle more expensive but always have had alot better luck with UPS

[montana_charlie]

Legally, if the seller receives the money and the buyer does not receive the product, the responsibility falls on the seller.
That is my view, too.
If the buyer mailed me cash which got lost, it would be his responsibility to insure that mailing ... or absorb the loss.
It IS his responsibility to get the money to me.

But, when it comes to getting the merchandise to HIM, that is my (the seller's) responsibility.
Therefore, I buy the insurance so I don't have to suffer the loss of replacing the item ... or refunding the money.


AND ... if he DID mail cash to me - and I plan to mail that cash back to him - I WILL insure that mailing, as well.

CM

[Vinne]

I learned a lot from threads on this site. Each time I ship a box of lead, I find myself beefing up the box a little more. Wood liners, extra tape and even stronger tape. I seem to think that it is never enough to make sure it gets there in one piece.
These people have sooo much to get out in a day that it is human nature to care less when it is for someone else. Then there is the cut backs in workforce to take into consideration!!! We should be glad it is not "one-of-a -kind" plates or glass that is being shipped.


May all your bullets this year find the X ring!!!
Vinne

[oldtoolsniper]

With United Parcel Service, Each person that touches that box scans it in. They wear scanners on their finger so when they handle the box it is scanned. The drivers have the box loaded to their clip board computers so they don't wear the finger scanners. When a package goes missing they know exactly who the last person was that touched it. Lose a box and lose a job.

[snowwolfe]

Good luck with any claim with the USPS.I have had several insured packages lost damaged ect. and havent had much luck getting my claims paid.THE SHIPPER IS RESPONSIBLE TO REPLACE UNLESS BUYER DIDNT WANT TO PAY FOR THE INSURANCE.GOOD LUCK FELLOWS.Mike

Thats what I used to think as well. I was going to order a couple of things online from a catalog company awhile back and found out insurance was optional and costly. Called up my credit card company and they informed me it is the sellers responsibility to get the package to my house undamaged. If the item doesnt show up or is damaged the cc people told me to contest the charges.
I know when I sell an item online now I always take the cost of insurance into consideration when calculating shipping and insure it. In my business I have to file one or two claims a year and USPS paid the claim within weeks and never gave me a minute of grief. Some of the claims were in excess of $200. Package the item well and be able to prove the value and it will be paid. Ship a $10 knick nak in a box with no padding and insure it for $200 and they will deny it.

[Beagle333]

Of all the lead that I have shipped, in the large flat rate boxes, all have made it to their locations. Of course, the box was not so much of a box, more of a cardboard bag... I tape the entire box..with a couple layers...

I have gotten more than one of the "cardboard bags" from sellers, usually containing tatters of the original box, wood splinters from what must have started out as supplemental reinforcing, and lead. It made it, but it suffered during the ride!
Thanks to you guys that I have bought from, for taping that sucker up really good! :bigsmyl2:


Twice (to give some credit to the Post Office), I have gotten the big white postal laundry baskets, containing the box top with address label and 62-63# of loose ingots. All lead accounted for, but the box was completely obliterated and mostly lost.

And once, sadly, I got the empty box with the busted out side, with the infamous red stamp "RECEIVED WITHOUT CONTENTS" and nothing in it. But they delivered it anyway. :(

[keyhole]

The mail person won't even attempt to deliver to my house. I have to go to Post Office and boy do most of them complain there about the weight.[/QUOTE]
----------------
To be completely fair to the USPS, the last time I went to the post office to pick up a shipment, one of the workers offered to help me load it into my car. He noticed that it weighed a lot. He went out of his way to help me, so they are not all curmudgeons.

[4719dave]

well if you lost this on ebay ..shame on you .... del con number ,from po you have no control after you del to post office ...ive had this happen 3-4 x i alwawys ship with a tracking number .
Legally, if the seller receives the money and the buyer does not receive the product, the responsibility falls on the seller. One party can not win out while other loses out. It is sellers responsibility.

As a seller, I have lost out on the thinking that buyer rejected insurance, so it fell to him. Buyer that never received item was automatically refunded and I was hit with a charge-back. Item was tracked as received by post office, and then nothing. Lost. I lost item and money. Buyer lost nothing. Seller beware if insurance is skipped. Tracking, delivery confirmation and buyer rejecting insurance is not enough.

Even if buyer pays extra for seller to insure item, there is nothing the buyer can do, as all insurance claims must go through the seller. Sellers, protect yourself.

[4719dave]

Tape and hot glue lol.......
i have gotten more than one of the "cardboard bags" from sellers, usually containing tatters of the original box, wood splinters from what must have started out as supplemental reinforcing, and lead. It made it, but it suffered during the ride!
thanks to you guys that i have bought from, for taping that sucker up really good! :bigsmyl2:


twice (to give some credit to the post office), i have gotten the big white postal laundry baskets, containing the box top with address label and 62-63# of loose ingots. All lead accounted for, but the box was completely obliterated and mostly lost.

And once, sadly, i got the empty box with the busted out side, with the infamous red stamp "received without contents" and nothing in it. But they delivered it anyway. :(

[rodsvet]

My postman is a jerk. He will walk halfway up the walk and throw the package at the porch. It's still better than it used to be though. When I first moved into my present home, the same guy would set the package on the curb and drive off. I filed a complaint with the Post Office General and now he and I are enemies. What ever happened to: nor rain or snow or dark of night? I hope my next postman can at least speak english. Rod

[Tatume]

My postman is a jerk. He will walk halfway up the walk and throw the package at the porch. It's still better than it used to be though. When I first moved into my present home, the same guy would set the package on the curb and drive off. I filed a complaint with the Post Office General and now he and I are enemies. What ever happened to: nor rain or snow or dark of night? I hope my next postman can at least speak english. Rod

There are two postal delivery folks who share the route that includes my house, a man and a woman (the man has an NRA decal on his truck!). Whenever I get a shipment of lead whichever one is working the route that day shows up with a hand truck, and comes to the door and asks where we would like the package placed. I'm usually at work, but my wife opens the door to my shop and helps put the box where it belongs. I've never heard a complaint.

[Inkman]

Buyers responsibility to get the funds to the seller.

Sellers responsibility to get the item to the buyer.

It is as simple as that. On receiving lead from private sellers, i bought ingotized lead twice when i was starting out here casting. Both times i picked up the lead at the P.O. with everything in the white mail carriers/fiber boxes with the flat rate boxes ripped open and the lead loose in the mail carrier boxes. One of the boxes even had tire marks running across it lol. One of the other boxes had the wood reinforcement pieces in shreds.

I do know a thing or two about shipping heavy items and one maxim is quadruple taping every square inch with reinforced shipping tape. The kind you can't tear with anything but a box cutter and the kind that has glue that is so sticky, no amount of water will loosen it.

I didn't weigh anything to see if anything was missing. Felt like 60#s or so and that was close enough for me.

Al

[KCcactus]

Our postal delivery person is an older woman. I ordered a box of lead and when it showed up, she rang the doorbell and asked my wife to come out to her truck and get the package. Fortunately, my wife thought it was amusing. Now, if I buy something heavy, I'll get it shipped to my office.

If I order something fragile or valuable, I get it shipped to work, too. There is someone there all day, so they can't just throw it on the porch and leave.

[Just Duke]

po HATES HEAVY BOXES OF LEAD ......caught girl at the counter push my 50 lb boxes off the self onto the floor she didnt know i was still in the po WOW DID SHE GET A SURPRISE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!double boxes hot glues together with sm flat rt boxes full of ingots then no space in the boxes with alot of hd packing take all sides of the boxes and INSURED wow made it .....
YES THEY DO I bought three boxes of sticky ons from a fella in Utah and they never showed. We went to the post office and talked to the managers who are a couple we party with. They called the 5 ft tall Asian gal out that had lied and filled out that the boxes were delivered. She said she never delivered them because they were to heavy.
BZZZT! Wrong answer. Postal workers are suppose to be able to lift a certain weight to qualify for the deliver job. She no longer works there. My buddy brought my boxes of lead to the front counter and I was on my way.

[alfloyd]

I have sold lead a few times here on cast boolits.
At first I did not insure them, and 3 out of 10 did not make to the buyer.
They all had delivery confirmation on them.
One was lost in Texas, one just vanished and one was delivered empty in
a very nice all togeather box.

I replaced all three boxes.

After that I have always insured the boxes and they have all found their way
to the buyer intact and full.
I also wrap the box with reinforced shipping tape in all directions and put "HEAVY"
in red letters on all sides of the box, it helps a lot.

My post office delivery women always put my large packages on my porch, no
matter what the weight.

I mostly ship lead in the small flat rate box. I can get 22 lbs in each box, and
there is no space for the ingots to move arround.
That makes shipping 66 lbs cost the same as one large flat rate box, and is
easier to handle.

Lafaun

[baer19d]

I would say the seller is responsible.

[Just Duke]

One was lost in Texas, one just vanished and one was delivered empty in
a very nice all togeather box.



Lafaun
My wife cringes when she has to ship Texas. Weird stuff happens. One time Barbie sent something there and her and the customer watched it sit via tracking for 7 days in one spot. It finally arrived. Whew! it was price too!
Just one of thousands when my wife sold an expensive suit that no longer fit me went to TX. It's still there. Somewhere HERE (http://claycord.com/2012/04/23/delivery-attempt-when-no-delivery-was-attempted/)
If she sends something there now it goes FEDEX.

[Just Duke]

Here the post. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?62468-Lost-Lead-and-lost-check-An-outstanding-member-here&highlight=lost+lead

[Just Duke]

Our postal delivery person is an older woman. I ordered a box of lead and when it showed up, she rang the doorbell and asked my wife to come out to her truck and get the package. Fortunately, my wife thought it was amusing. Now, if I buy something heavy, I'll get it shipped to my office.

If I order something fragile or valuable, I get it shipped to work, too. There is someone there all day, so they can't just throw it on the porch and leave.

FEDEX showed up at my door and the lady said. (Please bear with me here she was a US citizen but I almost needed and interpreture to understand what she was saying so I'll spell it the best I can.)

Her: Eye's gottsa buncha packages foe yooooo
Me: OK well bring them up
Her: Day heavy
Me: Oh! Their heavy. OK What do you want me to do.
Her: Needja to gets um outta my truck!
Me: No problem I'll call your boss at FEDEX and tell him you need help bringing packages to my front door. (I shut the door)
Then I get a knock on the door and all the packages are sitting there a minute later and she says "sign here sir".

So I call FEDEX afterwards and make them aware they need to send a crew to help this lady unload the half dozen packages out of her truck.
Two weeks later I get another knock on the door and a lady of same ethic origin hands me my packages. Wow. What happen to the other gal I asked. She says all she knew is she was replacing someone that was let go. She a was jewel and really really nice.

[Just Duke]

Filament/Fiberglass reinforced Tape or Duct tape is the only way to ship heavy boxes. Fairshake said double box. We would duct tape even the interior bow and also always do signature confirmation.
Also do not be an absentee recipient. If your expecting something arrange to be there. Very tempting for kids walking home to see your package and do the kid thing to it.

If your sending something that is more the $100.00 UPS or FEDEX it with insurance. You will loose every time with the PO on an insurance claim. We have.

[Boondocker]

Some dippy postal worker probably thought he found bars of silver sticking out of torn box, lol end of story. I had freshly smelted bars on the work bench and the son in laws bud walk in one time and put the skids on when he seen them. Told him I had a deal worked out the the undertaker and he bit hook line and sinker. He wanted to get in on it and it took me a while to set him staight for fear he would be going grave digging. Some people do not have much thought processing skills for sure. Besides me thinks there is more looting than losing even at the PO.

[flounder]

You will also lose every time you have an insurance claim with UPS, been there, done that.

[flounderman]

The worst experience I have had was from someone that had been on the site for less than a week. check and see how long the guy has been a member.

[snowwolfe]

I don't understand how you guys lose so many claims with USPS. I've never lost one, ever. Care to post the particulars of the claims? Why was it denied? Was the packaging deemed improper? Or the value questioned?

My experiences: Item is broken and the box and item is taken back to the post office by the person who received it. Post office examines and renders a decision if the item was packaged properly. After that is done the claim paperwork is sent to me where I either attach a price sheet or receipt proving the items worth. 2-3 weeks later a check comes in the mail.

UPS is another story all together. I knew people who had items packaged by UPS then damaged and the claim was denied because of improper packaging! Several of my online buddies actually had to contact attorneys to get reimbursed for damaged rifles.

[RP]

Well I see this post is picking up steam and thought I would share some more with you guys. I can print and pay my postage from the house and its cheaper. The thing is the lady that runs the mail route here is a older very nice lady and could not bear making her pick up heavy boxes. When I receive heavy packages she drives up blows the horn and ask for help which is ok with me. One member sent me some boolits for me to test for hardness package arrived broken open I told her over half of them were missing. She went back to the office looked found 5 of them and carried them back to me the same day and was very sorry for the lost items. Now as far as packages I had several not make it one time 6 in one shipment I had tracking numbers on them and made calls to find out and started a search. I was told right off the bat the PO dose not lose packages every I must have put the wrong address on them or packed it wrong. I emailed her pics of the packing wood crate glue stapled nailed wrapped and tape fully. I asked what more could I do then she told me well sir they are heavy and had to expect loss. I replied well they all are under 70 lbs and I did not set that weight limit. Well a few packages finally made it they were repacked in new box I replace the others with new packages. Then after I mail more one member told me he got the first box a week later lol. Its a tricky thing mailing lead and at this point for me not worth the trouble not saying I will not mail more just not right now.

[LAH]

I don't understand how you guys lose so many claims with USPS. I've never lost one, ever.

++++1++++

[captaint]

As anyone who has shipped lead before knows, you basically need one box inside the other. Obviously, they have to be made real well, and taped to the max. I have shipped lead to folks on occasion, and I have considered it my responsibility to be sure the package arrives intact.
The seller should make it good. He caused the problem. Mike

[jdowney]

Most seem to agree it is the seller's responsibility, as I agree also. I've only had to make good on a lost shipment once, but that is exactly what I did.

Strikes me funny though, most sellers list "insurance extra" or the like in their ad. The implication to me is that the seller considers the package to be the responsibility of the buyer, not the seller. They seem to be saying, no insurance, tough luck.

USPS insurance is almost impossible to collect, so says our local postmaster. I stopped insuring when I was mailing a scope back to its owner after repair, and it never arrived. We both started asking questions at our respective PO's and a week later it arrived at his house, opened and undamaged. If that mailing tube hadn't been insured, the would be theif would have assumed it was papers I think. Ya just can't win!

[LAH]

When I order whatever from whoever & it is damaged or lost by the freight company [whoever or whatever that may mean] they [the freight company] are the ones who should pay. That's why I insure everything shipped from our shop unless the customer asks us not. If they wish no insurance is it still my responsibility to replace lost or damaged goods? When a insured package from us is lost or damaged I replace them in a very timely fashion as any of our customers will testify. The PO & UPS back when, always handled our claims in a timely & friendly fashion.

Now if I was delivering the package myself that would be different. Anyway that's how I see it, your mileage may vary. I do find this an interesting discussion. We as individuals surely see things different.

[snowwolfe]

USPS insurance is almost impossible to collect, so says our local postmaster.

Your postmaster is dead wrong. As I said before, I never once had a claim denied and always received the value of the insurance with 2-3 weeks. After filling out the initial claim forms USPS has never even asked me additional questions. But there again, all the items I shipped are packaged very well and the value is easy to prove and is not inflated.

[LAH]

Your postmaster is dead wrong.

I feel he's dead wrong also but I have no reason to doubt he said it. Also because I've had great results with the PO does mean others have. And surely there's nothing worse than dealing with the government at times.

[wallacem]

Shipper is responsible to get the item to the receiver. Responsibility does NOT end with dropping it in a mailbox. My strong opinion. Wallacem in ga

[EDG]

>>>Strikes me funny though, most sellers list "insurance extra" or the like in their ad. The implication to me is that the seller considers the package to be the responsibility of the buyer, not the seller. They seem to be saying, no insurance, tough luck.<<<

If you check the Uniform Commercial Code the title of any property passes to the buyer when it is loaded onto the carriers means of conveyance. This is right out of any business law text book.
However this also assumes that the shipper has used the judgment of a reasonable person engaged in that commerce when preparing the property for shipment.
If you are going to be in the business of selling lead and preparing it for shipment you better know what it is going to take for successful packaging if you want happy customers.

I once worked for a company that manufactured the tranfer and process chambers for semi-conductor manufacturing. These machines typically were too large to be shipped in one piece on a truck or plane.
The company subcontracted with an experienced crator to package the machines. Included were the crate drawings and specifications. Temperature sensors and accelerometers were included in the packaging.
Once crated they were wrapped in Tyvek and normally were shipped by truck to Los Angeles or DFW where they caught a plane to Asia. If there was a problem it was usually between the air terminal and the customers fab due to rough roads and crummy trucks. So they then learned to specify only air ride trucks and if necessary they escorted the truck to ensure a smooth ride. Why all the trouble if the UCC says that title has passed? Well the customers decided that title would not pass until the machines had been installed and had been successfully tested. Then the $3 to $8 million dollar check was cashed...

[milsurp mike]

I dont have trouble with Damaged packages I have trouble with a thief within the USPS that likes Large Flat Rate Boxes full of Brass.45acp seems to be his Drug of Choice.Several different times I have had good luck with the insurance from the USPS but the last couple I have had to eat because of Bogus BS from them.Mike
PS You fellas that havent had any problems with insurance claims from the USPS better count your blessings.Hopefully you want have the same problems that the rest of America has had with these Fine US Government Employees.Something tells me if you continue to use them you will.

[EDG]

>>>I have trouble with a thief within the USPS that likes Large Flat Rate Boxes full of Brass.45acp<<<

The nitrate residue in the brass may be triggering some sort of chemical sniffer in the mail system. Not long after 911 occured I bought some .358 bullets and brass. That package included some loaded rounds the bone head sent through the mail. That package had been thoroughly rifled before it got to me. The Nosler bullets - new in the box had been broken into. I also arranged a brass swap with a guy that sent me some .375 Win brass. All I got out of that was an empty package. I would suggest that you package and seal any once fired brass in a couple of plastic bags.

[milsurp mike]

My boxes are Properly Packaged and properly sealed.The theif or Sniffer you speak of doesnt seem to like the the boxes of 9mm 38spl 40 ect. that were accompanying the boxes every time it was stolen.Mike

[LAH]

Mike someone has your number, perhaps by your label or some such. Mostly likely someone selling your brass for scrap. I do count myself as Blessed. We've be shipping, mostly by mail, for all these years & had very good service from the PO. Seems my worst problem comes from boxes which pass through or around Chicago.

[jdowney]

Your postmaster is dead wrong.

Entirely possible, I've only lost a couple shipments out of many, and those were not insured anyhow. I'm mostly shipping stuff I make, so there is no way to prove value, any receipt would just be the one I sent to the customer. I believe that's part of the reason they told me it would be difficult to make a successful claim.

Flip side is that this is also why I simply replace stuff that has gotten lost. I'm only out the time it takes to make another part, actual materials cost is low though.

[Beau Cassidy]

It doesn't surprise me that shipments thru the PO often go missing. I have talked to several post office workers who have told me theft is rampant- especially on birthday cards, christmas cards, etc because a lot of time they contain cash. I was told of a part time worker doing this and the investigation led to finding a lot of opened envelopes under the PO employee's front seat. That particular person is still delivering your mail. Welcome to gub'ment entitlement.

On another note I am fairly sure the postman swiped a very expensive necklace off of my doorstep after fedex left it. Two packages arrived close together- fedex and PO. Only the fedex package was there when I got home.

[LAH]

I'm mostly shipping stuff I make, so there is no way to prove value, any receipt would just be the one I sent to the customer.

I'm in the same boat. With the claims I've filed I sent copies of the receipt I sent the customer. I've not been challenged on this yet but the time may come. Of course I can give the PO links to other bullet companies to prove values.

[fishhawk]

moved this into our town guys S&S isn't the place for a large discussion thread.